'What about, "I kicked you because you're black" and "I don't talk to blacks". Are those terms of endearment?'
It appears that this is what Evra said that Suarez said. Suarez's version is completely different.
How can everyone get so worked up about one man's claim that someone made a racist comment with no evidence. We're relying on one man's word against another's. </
I agree Jimmy. The jump up and down brigade are having a field day today.
Given that Argentina, Brazil and Uruguay are banning all ships flying the Falklands Islands flag from their respective seaports, irrespective of any racist remarks, Suarez, Tevez and all the other ios and ezes should be deported immediately along with the other several thousand Brazies, Argies and Urus living and 'working' or claiming benefits in the UK .. and if that's racist .. so be it
Share The Falklands with Argentina.....and if you don't like it...so be it.
I'm watching the match between Man Utd and Liverpool today and I can't believe that this is dragging on. No-one can even be sure what Suarez said to Evra. Did he say 'negro' or 'negrito?' For one thing 'negrito' in Uruguay or Argentina often used as a term of endearment. My mother in law calls my boys 'negrito' all the time. They may not be black but the point is that these terms are used very very loosely in these two countries.
Besides all that, aren't we just taking one person's word against another? One of those people being a player who instigated a strike by a national team during The World Cup Finals.
I've just missed two goals writing this!
What about, "I kicked you because you're black" and "I don't talk to blacks". Are those terms of endearment?
No. What are you talking about?
That's what the FA report concludes what Suarez said to Evra
It appears that Evra started the conversation by insulting Suarez. In my opinion it's like a playground spat between two stupid little boys and everyone is now taking it well out of context. The point is that these two players are from countries that are both culturally different to the UK and were speaking in Spanish. Too much analysis and translation in the UK, taken from a British perpective using British cultural values is asking for trouble.
This should never have gone to court.
Did it go to court? I didn't think it did.
So, what you're saying is that if people think it's ok to racially abuse people in their country, it's ok to do it in others'? What about wife beating? That's not considered bad in many countries. Should we allow that in the UK as long as it's done by people from countries that tolerate it?
You seem to be going over old ground with your argument anyway. Suarez was found accountable by a panel of experts. They found his evidence inconsistent, whereas Evra's was found to be reliable.
Interview perfection there from Fergie. I don't like him much but he got that spot on
Really? I thought it was foolish, inflammatory - and hypocritical. Before the match he attacked Liverpool for mouthing off and claimed the moral high ground:
"We've just got on with our job," said the United manager. "We've kept our dignity throughout and will concentrate on the game.
"They (Liverpool) have said plenty haven't they? But we've kept our counsel and I think that's the right thing to do in these situations.We've not thought about it, we're not bothered about it and we're focused on the game."
And then he goes and calls Suarez a disgrace and says he should never be allowed to play for Liverpool again. If he thinks that's keeping his ''dignity'', he's a bloody fool.
He gave the most lame and slow rising handshake known to man to suarez he knew the outcome imo he was looking for a row, and trying to incite suarez to no avail at the end. His no angel
Interview perfection there from Fergie. I don't like him much but he got that spot on
Really? I thought it was foolish, inflammatory - and hypocritical. Before the match he attacked Liverpool for mouthing off and claimed the moral high ground:
"We've just got on with our job," said the United manager. "We've kept our dignity throughout and will concentrate on the game.
"They (Liverpool) have said plenty haven't they? But we've kept our counsel and I think that's the right thing to do in these situations.We've not thought about it, we're not bothered about it and we're focused on the game."
And then he goes and calls Suarez a disgrace and says he should never be allowed to play for Liverpool again. If he thinks that's keeping his ''dignity'', he's a bloody fool.
Listening to it again I retract the perfection comment as he didn't need to be giving Liverpool selection advice. But I was impressed by the way he said Suarez's actions weren't in keeping with Liverpool's history and criticised Evra for his celebrations at the end. I think it was very important that he acknowledged Evra wasn't doing anyone any favours by jumping around like taht
Interview perfection there from Fergie. I don't like him much but he got that spot on
Really? I thought it was foolish, inflammatory - and hypocritical. Before the match he attacked Liverpool for mouthing off and claimed the moral high ground:
"We've just got on with our job," said the United manager. "We've kept our dignity throughout and will concentrate on the game.
"They (Liverpool) have said plenty haven't they? But we've kept our counsel and I think that's the right thing to do in these situations.We've not thought about it, we're not bothered about it and we're focused on the game."
And then he goes and calls Suarez a disgrace and says he should never be allowed to play for Liverpool again. If he thinks that's keeping his ''dignity'', he's a bloody fool.
Ferguson is a master at false 'diplomacy'.. he took lessons from the memoirs of Von Ribbentrop
Let me give an example of how absurd this all is. Take a quality newspaper like The Guardian and even they can't really give a true translation:
'Mr Evra and Mr Suárez are agreed that they spoke to each other in Spanish in the goalmouth. Mr Evra said that he is not exactly fluent in Spanish but that he can easily converse in Spanish. For Mr Suárez Spanish is his native language as a Uruguayan. Mr Evra told us that he began the conversation by saying "Concha de tu hermana". Mr Evra's evidence was that this is a phrase used in Spanish like when you say "fucking hell" in English, but the literal translation is "your sister's pussy". Mr Suárez did not hear Mr Evra say this. One of the video clips that we have seen, taken from a close-up angle behind the goal, does appear to support Mr Evra's evidence that he started the conversation with this comment.'
Ask an Argentinian or Uruguayan what this means and they will tell you it means 'fuck your sister.' Start a conversation like this and what do you expect?
Funny that the only native Spanish speaker who overhead this was the Man Utd goalkeeper and he prefers to say nothing.
From my experiences in South American, married to an Argentinian, living in France (How would everyone on here feel if Evra was English and disgraced the country like he did to France in 2010) and having read that article, my impression is that Evra is the more guilty party.
'What about, "I kicked you because you're black" and "I don't talk to blacks". Are those terms of endearment?'
It appears that this is what Evra said that Suarez said. Suarez's version is completely different.
How can everyone get so worked up about one man's claim that someone made a racist comment with no evidence. We're relying on one man's word against another's.
the FA decided that what Evra said had happened probably did happen. Suarez changed his account on what happened (the actions of some one who is guilty?) many times whilst Evra always remained consistant. The decision then NOT to appeal shows that it almost certainly was the correct form of events that happened. Then Suarez's actions today pretty much confirmed to me that the guy is an absolute bellend of a human being. Whether anyone likes it or not, footballers are role models and should act maturely and responsibly.
There's also the old saying "where there's smoke there's usually fire". Why would Patrice Evra, an intelligent and well read individual make up lies and then be incredibly consistent with his lie just to harm a fellow professional's career?
Ash Tray asked: ' So, what you're saying is that if people think it's ok to racially abuse people in their country, it's ok to do it in others'?
1. We don't know that he even said what is claimed to have been said
2. It is not considered racial abuse in his country. Listen to this and read the translation for example. It is the sort of song my wife had sung to her as a child in Argentinia:
So if some one insults my sister I have a right to be racist? Riiight...
Racism in the sense that you and I are aware of does not exist where he is from. Go to his country and see how many black people there are. I don't think I've ever seen one until you get up to Brazil. Black people are spoken about still in the way they would have been in Britain centuries ago. Things have changed so much in Britain in just the last fourty years (approx my lifetime). We used to have golliwogs for example. If the difference between British society then and now can be so great, can't you accept that it may be even more so regarding cultures now from the other side of the world?
If you went to live in Uruguay or Argentina, they'd be so much you'd say or do that would be considered unacceptable. You'd probably offend them at some point. You'd also realise that they are probably more tolerant than we appear to be.
We've had this problem we've Tevez and now with Suarez. In some ways it makes me laugh because it makes me feel better about the problems I've had in their countries.
I don't think what's tolerated or acceptable in his country is relevant at all he is in our country and from once he realised that the words said were unacceptable here he an Liverpool should have appologised and accepted the punishments
Jimmy, you're missing the point and going over old ground.
If I offended people in Uruguay and was earning a living there, regardless of how acceptable whatever I'd done was in the UK, and I had the opportunity to show I understood the offence I'd caused by shaking someone's hand, I would take that opportunity. Suarez didn't.
In general, you're taking the relativist stance that behaviour is OK somewhere in the world, then it should be forgiven. There are universal right and wrongs and racism should be one of them. However you look at it, refusing to speak to someone because they are black, or kicking someone because they are black is racist from whatever cultural perspective to look at it.
So if some one insults my sister I have a right to be racist? Riiight...
Racism in the sense that you and I are aware of does not exist where he is from. Go to his country and see how many black people there are. I don't think I've ever seen one until you get up to Brazil. Black people are spoken about still in the way they would have been in Britain centuries ago. Things have changed so much in Britain in just the last fourty years (approx my lifetime). We used to have golliwogs for example. If the difference between British society then and now can be so great, can't you accept that it may be even more so regarding cultures now from the other side of the world?
If you went to live in Uruguay or Argentina, they'd be so much you'd say or do that would be considered unacceptable. You'd probably offend them at some point. You'd also realise that they are probably more tolerant than we appear to be.
We've had this problem we've Tevez and now with Suarez. In some ways it makes me laugh because it makes me feel better about the problems I've had in their countries.
What a complete load of tosh. Glad someone is laughing at all this. Idiotic comments.
I don't think what's tolerated or acceptable in his country is relevant at all he is in our country and from once he realised that the words said were unacceptable here he an Liverpool should have appologised and accepted the punishments
I do think that what is tolerated or acceptable in his country is relevant if you want to translate from a foreign language to pass judgement.
I agree however that 'once he realised that the words said were unacceptable here he an Liverpool should have appologised and accepted the punishments'
People in Britain need to be more aware that if you accept foreign players (or any civilians) into the country then there are going to be communication problems. Some of these (racial, religious etc) will cause tension and it is absurd to expect to be able to make a proper judgement when:
a). you have no witnesses and you're using camera shots of a football pitch showing physical gestures (interpretation of which also differ from country to country) b). no-one seems capable of making a correct translation (as I highlighted above)
Can I ask jimmymelrose, have you actually taken the time to read the independent report of the incident, or are you just blindly talking complete bollocks?
Well now Off-It is on here making his usual kick-response comments I'm logging off. I can think of better ways of spending my Saturday afternoon then getting embroled in an argument. If you disagree with me then fine. I make my point and you make yours (as Ash Tray fairly did).
I've said my piece as someone with experience of Suarez's part of the world and I just ask people to think about it. Goodbye.
Let's be clear this did NOT go to court - presumably because the police and CPS didnt think there was evidence that would stack up in court. It was an FA enquiry based on probability and they believed Evra because they said he was a "credible" witness.
Let's be clear that he and Liverpool DID accept the punishment and didn't appeal.
I have no idea but I suspect the non handshake wasn't pre-meditated. He may originally have thought he would but when i came to line up just though "this guy has cused me so much grief I can't do it because it's so fake."
And surely Ferdinandnds, i'm not gonna shake your hand because you didn't shake my mates hand is no different.
looked to me like Suarez hand was there for Evra to take (he never lowered his hand or pulled it away when he got to evra). Evra was very slow to react so Suarez offered it straight to the next player.
But he kept changing his version of events during questioning so he didn't help himself with that action and stance
In my opinion he knew what he was doing , if it was this cultural difference something would have happend during training or in and around the training ground or stadium and it would've been bought to his attention that it was not right to do that here
He did it he got punished and he should've moved on
The way him , dalglish and Liverpool fc fans and club as s whole behaved was to make the issue acceptable and understandable
Comments
Did it go to court? I didn't think it did.
So, what you're saying is that if people think it's ok to racially abuse people in their country, it's ok to do it in others'? What about wife beating? That's not considered bad in many countries. Should we allow that in the UK as long as it's done by people from countries that tolerate it?
You seem to be going over old ground with your argument anyway. Suarez was found accountable by a panel of experts. They found his evidence inconsistent, whereas Evra's was found to be reliable.
"We've just got on with our job," said the United manager. "We've kept our dignity throughout and will concentrate on the game.
"They (Liverpool) have said plenty haven't they? But we've kept our counsel and I think that's the right thing to do in these situations.We've not thought about it, we're not bothered about it and we're focused on the game."
And then he goes and calls Suarez a disgrace and says he should never be allowed to play for Liverpool again. If he thinks that's keeping his ''dignity'', he's a bloody fool.
Everything he said was spot on
Makesure you quote the whole interview as it puts it into context not the snippets you have chose
'Mr Evra and Mr Suárez are agreed that they spoke to each other in Spanish in the goalmouth. Mr Evra said that he is not exactly fluent in Spanish but that he can easily converse in Spanish. For Mr Suárez Spanish is his native language as a Uruguayan. Mr Evra told us that he began the conversation by saying "Concha de tu hermana". Mr Evra's evidence was that this is a phrase used in Spanish like when you say "fucking hell" in English, but the literal translation is "your sister's pussy". Mr Suárez did not hear Mr Evra say this. One of the video clips that we have seen, taken from a close-up angle behind the goal, does appear to support Mr Evra's evidence that he started the conversation with this comment.'
Ask an Argentinian or Uruguayan what this means and they will tell you it means 'fuck your sister.' Start a conversation like this and what do you expect?
Funny that the only native Spanish speaker who overhead this was the Man Utd goalkeeper and he prefers to say nothing.
From my experiences in South American, married to an Argentinian, living in France (How would everyone on here feel if Evra was English and disgraced the country like he did to France in 2010) and having read that article, my impression is that Evra is the more guilty party.
There's also the old saying "where there's smoke there's usually fire". Why would Patrice Evra, an intelligent and well read individual make up lies and then be incredibly consistent with his lie just to harm a fellow professional's career?
So, what you're saying is that if people think it's ok to racially abuse people in their country, it's ok to do it in others'?
1. We don't know that he even said what is claimed to have been said
2. It is not considered racial abuse in his country.
Listen to this and read the translation for example. It is the sort of song my wife had sung to her as a child in Argentinia:
http://fireflowerinsolitude.wordpress.com/2007/04/29/duerme-negrito/
I didn't think evra's celebration at the end warranted the teardrop reaction of the liverpool players , suarez just ignored it
If you went to live in Uruguay or Argentina, they'd be so much you'd say or do that would be considered unacceptable. You'd probably offend them at some point. You'd also realise that they are probably more tolerant than we appear to be.
We've had this problem we've Tevez and now with Suarez. In some ways it makes me laugh because it makes me feel better about the problems I've had in their countries.
If I offended people in Uruguay and was earning a living there, regardless of how acceptable whatever I'd done was in the UK, and I had the opportunity to show I understood the offence I'd caused by shaking someone's hand, I would take that opportunity. Suarez didn't.
In general, you're taking the relativist stance that behaviour is OK somewhere in the world, then it should be forgiven. There are universal right and wrongs and racism should be one of them. However you look at it, refusing to speak to someone because they are black, or kicking someone because they are black is racist from whatever cultural perspective to look at it.
I agree however that 'once he realised that the words said were unacceptable here he an Liverpool should have appologised and accepted the punishments'
People in Britain need to be more aware that if you accept foreign players (or any civilians) into the country then there are going to be communication problems. Some of these (racial, religious etc) will cause tension and it is absurd to expect to be able to make a proper judgement when:
a). you have no witnesses and you're using camera shots of a football pitch showing physical gestures (interpretation of which also differ from country to country)
b). no-one seems capable of making a correct translation (as I highlighted above)
- it's farcical
I've said my piece as someone with experience of Suarez's part of the world and I just ask people to think about it. Goodbye.
Goodbye!
Don't think it's just Off It who thinks you are writing nonsense.
The report was a considered piece of work. It is notable that it was not appealed.
Let's be clear that he and Liverpool DID accept the punishment and didn't appeal.
I have no idea but I suspect the non handshake wasn't pre-meditated. He may originally have thought he would but when i came to line up just though "this guy has cused me so much grief I can't do it because it's so fake."
And surely Ferdinandnds, i'm not gonna shake your hand because you didn't shake my mates hand is no different.
looked to me like Suarez hand was there for Evra to take (he never lowered his hand or pulled it away when he got to evra). Evra was very slow to react so Suarez offered it straight to the next player.
In my opinion he knew what he was doing , if it was this cultural difference something would have happend during training or in and around the training ground or stadium and it would've been bought to his attention that it was not right to do that here
He did it he got punished and he should've moved on
The way him , dalglish and Liverpool fc fans and club as s whole behaved was to make the issue acceptable and understandable
Which was wrong
http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/gif-suarez-refuses-to-shake-evras-hand-rio-doesnt-shake-suarezs-manchester-united-liverpool/
http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/gif-patrice-evras-celebrates-victory-in-front-of-luis-suarez-manchester-united-liverpool/
Sorry Nolly just me and you then.
Actually looking from the angle in the link above it doesn't look quite so clear.