When you had that first bite, are you sure the Asda checkout girl wasn't still holding the apple and you accidentally nipped off a couple of her pinkies?
Maybe I would find halal slaughter sickening, but it's just as likely I'd find "Western, civilised" slaughter sickening too.
If that's the case why do you continue to carry on eating meat regardless?
1) He hasn't seen either
and
2) The fact it's getting slaughtered doesn't make it any less tasty
People using the household pet argument is ridiculous... I haven't formed an emotional bond with the cow in my burger so it's irrelevant that i love my cat
It isn't a ridiculous argument at all. How is it that someone can get so emotional about one animal but not care about the pain and suffering of another? Is it just that you know one and not the other? If that's the case I could argue that I have no emotional bond with your cat so that makes it OK for me to kill it and eat it. Why don't I just kill everyone's pets on the basis that I personally have no emotional bond, as if my feelings are the only ones that matter.
[cite]Posted By: Leroy Ambrose[/cite] - the vast majority of people couldn't give a fuck about how it's killed. .
Then the vast majority are either heartless or haven't really thought about it. I think it's the latter. People are afraid to face the truth because they want to continue eating meat.
Some of the arguments on here about it 'tasting good' are absurd. How far would you support this argument? If you bought a pizza from Asda and afterwards saw that it had human meat in it would you still shrug and think 'oh well, that's because we want to keep the **** happy, and it tastes good anyway so nevermind'
I think I'd be pretty pissed off with you for attacking my property. That would apply whether my property was a dog, cat, chicken or pig.
As said already, it's highly unlikely I'd change my consumption of meat after watching a slaughter, whether halal or non-halal. But where there is any chance, it's just as likely the Western means would put me off. Sorry, but animal rights arguments really aren't going to wash with me. Have your opinion, if you like, but don't expect mine to change.
Thanks for taking a last minute throwaway line as my argument. How do we treat animals, as a matter of interest ?
[cite]Posted By: jimmymelrose[/cite]If you bought a pizza from Asda and afterwards saw that it had human meat in it would you still shrug and think 'oh well, that's because we want to keep the **** happy, and it tastes good anyway so nevermind'
[cite]Posted By: IA[/cite]I think I'd be pretty pissed off with you for attacking my property. That would apply whether my property was a dog, cat, chicken or pig.
As said already, it's highly unlikely I'd change my consumption of meat after watching a slaughter, whether halal or non-halal. But where there is any chance, it's just as likely the Western means would put me off. Sorry, but animal rights arguments really aren't going to wash with me. Have your opinion, if you like, but don't expect mine to change.
Thanks for taking a last minute throwaway line as my argument. How do we treat animals, as a matter of interest ?
I'm not to know it's a throwaway line. Your contempt for animals is something I find hard to comprehend so I'm certainly don't going to understand when you're joking.
Actually I don't really get your last question. Can you explain. Are you asking me to explain how I think we should treat animals? Or are you asking to explain how I think we mistreat them? I would have thought that the answers to both of those questions were obvious.
[cite]Posted By: jimmymelrose[/cite]If you bought a pizza from Asda and afterwards saw that it had human meat in it would you still shrug and think 'oh well, that's because we want to keep the **** happy, and it tastes good anyway so nevermind'
We have the winner for most absurd post.
In your opinion. I find your posts absurd.
Why's it absurd? You said that you don't care as long as it tastes good. I don't know how far you'd take this line of argument. You seem happy to advocate any level of maltreatment and pain to animals to satisfy your tastebuds. For all I know you could allow this to extend to your own species. Some people do.
"Show me another species that treats animals as we do. You can't."
Lots of species hunt animals down and eat them, so I was wondering what exactly you meant by the comment.
My problem isn't that you took on that one line, it's that you ignored the rest of my posts (EDIT and went straight for that one line).
Of course animals hunt other animals down and eat them. What they don't do is is herd them together in their thousands, put them in a space too small for them to move it, put them through sleep deprivation, torture them, tie them up, attach tubes to them to feed them intraveniously, make them eat their own species - the list goes on...
That's what I mean by no other species treating another as badly as we do. Even worse still, we have the highest intelligence and should therefore understand that this is wrong.
I don't care about animal rights, largely because animals don't care about my rights.
The only reason animals don't cultivate their prey is because they can't, not because they have some morality about it.
Being indifferent to halal is a moral standpoint I'm happy enough to defend to someone who eats meat. From your comments, I'll guess that you're a veggie. I doubt either of us is going to change our minds, but let's see. Why do you think it's OK to murder plants for your nutrition?
[cite]Posted By: IA[/cite]I don't care about animal rights, largely because animals don't care about my rights.
The only reason animals don't cultivate their prey is because they can't, not because they have some morality about it.
Being indifferent to halal is a moral standpoint I'm happy enough to defend to someone who eats meat. From your comments, I'll guess that you're a veggie. I doubt either of us is going to change our minds, but let's see. Why do you think it's OK to murder plants for your nutrition?
With this question I think you're on a wind up. In case your not, just 3 more words: central nervous system. I'll let you work that out.
It's 1.30am here - I'm going to bed.
There's one thing I agree with you about - sadly, you're not going to change your mind about any of this. I'm willing to change my mind. For example: I said that I didn't want my children to eat meat. My wife disagreed. We compromised and I agreed for her to buy meat from a quality butcher who gets his supplies from non-industrialised meat production suppliers.
Some believe that it is wrong to kill at all. Yet understand it is sometimes necesary as it is the least bad path
If consideration is given to the suffering of the animal being eaten then this does not preclude the eating of meat, as long as it is just what we need
Vegetarians should equally consider the suffering of worms insects rodents and other animals that are routinely killed in order to produce the staples of a vegetarian diet.
Just thought I would contribute as someone who has had to eat monkey, snake, hornet pupae, anteater and worms to survive
I don't know why people get het up, meat from whatever animal is just meat - as you can see above.
So I wonder exactly what meat is in Iceland pizzas ........?
[cite]Posted By: Floyd Montana[/cite]Some believe that it is wrong to kill at all.
Yet understand it is sometimes necesary as it is the least bad path
If consideration is given to the suffering of the animal being eaten then this does not preclude the eating of meat, as long as it is just what we need (1)
Vegetarians should equally consider the suffering of worms insects rodents and other animals that are routinely killed in order to produce the staples of a vegetarian diet. (2)
Just thought I would contribute as someone who has had to eat monkey, snake, hornet pupae, anteater and worms to survive
(1) Agree. I don't necessarily disagree with eating animals. It's a natural part of the food chain.
(2) I have never said that I am vegetarian. I understand tha it would be assumed by the nature of my arguments, but I cannot claim to be 100% so.
The problem with this discussion is that all too often it gets radicalised. Too many vegetarians take the argument that no-one should eat any meat which as a result makes people ignore their real concerns. I've tried discussing this with people protesting on the streets but unfortunately they are too extreme in their views to consider taking it into account. I argue that they are never going to persuade meat- eaters to stop eating meat, but that we should persuade people to cut down, and to consider where the meat comes from.
All I am trying to say is that there are many alternatives to meat (especially in the UK) and that these should be eaten to reduce (not eradicate) the consumption of meat in one's daily diet. Having reduced the volume of meat consumed, the money saved can be used to buy the more expensive meat from a good butcher's who doesn't get his supplies from industrialised meat production but from good farms.
I don't know why people get het up, meat from whatever animal is just meat - as you can see above.
So I wonder exactly what meat is in Iceland pizzas ........?
This website says:
'Here the caution in choosing your meal must be mentioned. It is VERY IMPORTANT to remember that animals raised for slaughter are kept in tightly controlled environments with their health and diet carefully maintained. Humans are not. Thus not only is the meat of each person of varying quality, but people are also subject to an enormous range of diseases, infections, chemical imbalances, and poisonous bad habits, all typically increasing with age.'
Supermarket meat is not taken from animals 'with their health and diet carefully maintained.' If only they were. They are mistreated and unhealthy. They too are 'subject to an enormous range of diseases, infections, chemical imbalances' due to the awful living conditions in which they are placed.
This is a bad choice of website Oggy because it is based on choosing human meat from 'unwilling donors'. There are willing donors available.
What I get 'het up about' is not just having animals as 'unwilling donors' which is as I have said part of the food chain, but maltreating them and making their lives hell before death.
So clearly 'meat from whatever animal is just meat' is just not true. Meat from one animal that has been treated well is definitely NOT comparable with that of a maltreated animal.
Sorry Jimmy, I should have made it clear, the post was not directed at you or anyone, more my own thoughts on the issue. Personally I dont want to have to kill an animal again in order to eat, yet somehow cant avoid eating meat once a week or so. We all have to make our own decisions. I just wish more people were more aware of, and were mindful of, the impacts of our daily consumer decisions.
Of course if we agonised in more detail beyond our basic rules (vegetarian, price, free rang,e free trade, whatever) we would disaapear up our own backsides!
Totally agree with your last paragraph.
We could veer into the ethics of fish-eating too. (but that may turn into a bit of a red herring.) (ouch)
[cite]Posted By: Floyd Montana[/cite]Sorry Jimmy, I should have made it clear, the post was not directed at you or anyone, more my own thoughts on the issue.
Personally I dont want to have to kill an animal again in order to eat, yet somehow cant avoid eating meat once a week or so.
We all have to make our own decisions. I just wish more people were more aware of, and were mindful of, the impacts of our daily consumer decisions.
Of course if we agonised in more detail beyond our basic rules (vegetarian, price, free rang,e free trade, whatever) we would disaapear up our own backsides!
Totally agree with your last paragraph.
We could veer into the ethics of fish-eating too. (but that may turn into a bit of a red herring.) (ouch)
There's absolutely no need for you to apologise. I'm glad to get such a debate going. I've underlined a part of your post as that's all I, along with some other people, try to make people realise. It's sad just how many people refuse to think about it.
Your point about fish is very true. If I lived in England I would give it up as there as so many more vegetarian options in England. In France there are very few, and if I eat out, fish is my only option.
Lastly, I'm interested to hear that you have killed an animal in order to eat. Unsurprisingly you sound reluctant to do so again. That's because, like me, you have seen into the eyes of a murdered being. It's a truly life changing moment and I wish more people would experience it.
I don't know why people get het up, meat from whatever animal is just meat - as you can see above.
So I wonder exactly what meat is in Iceland pizzas ........?
This is a bad choice of website Oggy because it is based on choosing human meat from 'unwilling donors'. There are willing donors available.
Maybe you're right, Jimmy, bad choice of website .....I didn't actually read the page content, just the title - and didn't think anybody would take me seriously.
Off_it, can you please change the name of this thread to reflect the strange twist it has taken.
I am laying here suffering with a chest infection and after reading this started to wonder why Iceland were selling pizza with assorted pets (mainly cats) and human meat on. I had to go back to the start to remind myself it actually contained 'tomato sauce, mozzarella cheese, reformed lamb, red onions and green peppers'.
After all the "discussion" the original WTF pizza sounds good and only a pound, bargain;-)
[cite]Posted By: RalphMilnesgut[/cite]I had to go back to the start to remind myself it actually contained 'tomato sauce, mozzarella cheese, reformed long pig, red onions and green peppers'.
Really interesting thread, and particularly interesting is how often people whose views appear to be diametrically opposed at first glance are ultimately saying the same thing, and differing only to the matter of degree!
Suffice to say that I do buy into the argument that of all of the places to save a few pennies in your budget, your food (with direct correlation to your health and that of your family) is a strange choice. Reduction of meat consumption (saw an interesting article about making the meat the side dish in any meal...) with the ability to buy what meat you do more selectively with greater knowledge seemed a very reasonable choice, and is one that our family employs. I've cut out alcohol for a significant period of time on a few occasions with little difficulty, but meat is a tougher row to hoe...
In any event, I've really enjoyed this thread...certainly more than a kebab pizza!
I was a vegetarian for about 8 years - I work in the food industry & saw the state of the meat processing industry back in the BSE days - quite simply appalling & it totally put me off.
The bottom line was though, that I became bored with the diet, missed meat & saw the emergence of organic, free range & more humanely farmed animals.
Nowadays I eat quite a lot of meat & thoroughly enjoy it - just about to cook a nice organic pork tenderloin I picked up earlier today :-)
Comments
And I've eaten that apple while it's still alive.....?
As I took that first bite, I'm sure I heard it scream.
Which is where we came in. What are their Pizzas like?
Kill it, cook it, eat it, shit it, spread it, grow it, pick it, cook it, eat it ad infinitum...
Simple...
It isn't a ridiculous argument at all. How is it that someone can get so emotional about one animal but not care about the pain and suffering of another? Is it just that you know one and not the other? If that's the case I could argue that I have no emotional bond with your cat so that makes it OK for me to kill it and eat it. Why don't I just kill everyone's pets on the basis that I personally have no emotional bond, as if my feelings are the only ones that matter.
You can't compare animals eating meat to humans eating meat.
Show me another species that treats animals as we do. You can't.
If you've had pets, how would you have felt if I'd slit their throats, or if I'd locked them up if a small cage, not able to move?
Then the vast majority are either heartless or haven't really thought about it. I think it's the latter. People are afraid to face the truth because they want to continue eating meat.
Some of the arguments on here about it 'tasting good' are absurd. How far would you support this argument? If you bought a pizza from Asda and afterwards saw that it had human meat in it would you still shrug and think 'oh well, that's because we want to keep the **** happy, and it tastes good anyway so nevermind'
As said already, it's highly unlikely I'd change my consumption of meat after watching a slaughter, whether halal or non-halal. But where there is any chance, it's just as likely the Western means would put me off. Sorry, but animal rights arguments really aren't going to wash with me. Have your opinion, if you like, but don't expect mine to change.
Thanks for taking a last minute throwaway line as my argument. How do we treat animals, as a matter of interest ?
We have the winner for most absurd post.
I'm not to know it's a throwaway line. Your contempt for animals is something I find hard to comprehend so I'm certainly don't going to understand when you're joking.
Actually I don't really get your last question. Can you explain. Are you asking me to explain how I think we should treat animals? Or are you asking to explain how I think we mistreat them? I would have thought that the answers to both of those questions were obvious.
"Show me another species that treats animals as we do. You can't."
Lots of species hunt animals down and eat them, so I was wondering what exactly you meant by the comment.
My problem isn't that you took on that one line, it's that you ignored the rest of my posts (EDIT and went straight for that one line).
By the way, still think there's just something wrong with the Iceland kebab pizzas for £1.
In your opinion. I find your posts absurd.
Why's it absurd? You said that you don't care as long as it tastes good. I don't know how far you'd take this line of argument. You seem happy to advocate any level of maltreatment and pain to animals to satisfy your tastebuds. For all I know you could allow this to extend to your own species. Some people do.
Of course animals hunt other animals down and eat them. What they don't do is is herd them together in their thousands, put them in a space too small for them to move it, put them through sleep deprivation, torture them, tie them up, attach tubes to them to feed them intraveniously, make them eat their own species - the list goes on...
That's what I mean by no other species treating another as badly as we do. Even worse still, we have the highest intelligence and should therefore understand that this is wrong.
Not arguing - discussing ;-
The only reason animals don't cultivate their prey is because they can't, not because they have some morality about it.
Being indifferent to halal is a moral standpoint I'm happy enough to defend to someone who eats meat. From your comments, I'll guess that you're a veggie. I doubt either of us is going to change our minds, but let's see. Why do you think it's OK to murder plants for your nutrition?
With this question I think you're on a wind up. In case your not, just 3 more words: central nervous system. I'll let you work that out.
It's 1.30am here - I'm going to bed.
There's one thing I agree with you about - sadly, you're not going to change your mind about any of this. I'm willing to change my mind. For example: I said that I didn't want my children to eat meat. My wife disagreed. We compromised and I agreed for her to buy meat from a quality butcher who gets his supplies from non-industrialised meat production suppliers.
Goodnight.
Yet understand it is sometimes necesary as it is the least bad path
If consideration is given to the suffering of the animal being eaten then this does not preclude the eating of meat, as long as it is just what we need
Vegetarians should equally consider the suffering of worms insects rodents and other animals that are routinely killed in order to produce the staples of a vegetarian diet.
Just thought I would contribute as someone who has had to eat monkey, snake, hornet pupae, anteater and worms to survive
And human meat tastes just like Pork.
Which is why it is often said that cannibals refer to cooked human flesh as 'Long Pig'.
Or it's amazing what you can find on Google, lol:
Linky:Butchering the Human Carcass for Human Consumption
I don't know why people get het up, meat from whatever animal is just meat - as you can see above.
So I wonder exactly what meat is in Iceland pizzas ........?
(1) Agree. I don't necessarily disagree with eating animals. It's a natural part of the food chain.
(2) I have never said that I am vegetarian. I understand tha it would be assumed by the nature of my arguments, but I cannot claim to be 100% so.
The problem with this discussion is that all too often it gets radicalised. Too many vegetarians take the argument that no-one should eat any meat which as a result makes people ignore their real concerns. I've tried discussing this with people protesting on the streets but unfortunately they are too extreme in their views to consider taking it into account. I argue that they are never going to persuade meat- eaters to stop eating meat, but that we should persuade people to cut down, and to consider where the meat comes from.
All I am trying to say is that there are many alternatives to meat (especially in the UK) and that these should be eaten to reduce (not eradicate) the consumption of meat in one's daily diet. Having reduced the volume of meat consumed, the money saved can be used to buy the more expensive meat from a good butcher's who doesn't get his supplies from industrialised meat production but from good farms.
This website says:
'Here the caution in choosing your meal must be mentioned. It is VERY IMPORTANT to remember that animals raised for slaughter are kept in tightly controlled environments with their health and diet carefully maintained. Humans are not. Thus not only is the meat of each person of varying quality, but people are also subject to an enormous range of diseases, infections, chemical imbalances, and poisonous bad habits, all typically increasing with age.'
Supermarket meat is not taken from animals 'with their health and diet carefully maintained.' If only they were. They are mistreated and unhealthy. They too are 'subject to an enormous range of diseases, infections, chemical imbalances' due to the awful living conditions in which they are placed.
This is a bad choice of website Oggy because it is based on choosing human meat from 'unwilling donors'. There are willing donors available.
What I get 'het up about' is not just having animals as 'unwilling donors' which is as I have said part of the food chain, but maltreating them and making their lives hell before death.
So clearly 'meat from whatever animal is just meat' is just not true. Meat from one animal that has been treated well is definitely NOT comparable with that of a maltreated animal.
Personally I dont want to have to kill an animal again in order to eat, yet somehow cant avoid eating meat once a week or so.
We all have to make our own decisions. I just wish more people were more aware of, and were mindful of, the impacts of our daily consumer decisions.
Of course if we agonised in more detail beyond our basic rules (vegetarian, price, free rang,e free trade, whatever) we would disaapear up our own backsides!
Totally agree with your last paragraph.
We could veer into the ethics of fish-eating too. (but that may turn into a bit of a red herring.) (ouch)
There's absolutely no need for you to apologise. I'm glad to get such a debate going. I've underlined a part of your post as that's all I, along with some other people, try to make people realise. It's sad just how many people refuse to think about it.
Your point about fish is very true. If I lived in England I would give it up as there as so many more vegetarian options in England. In France there are very few, and if I eat out, fish is my only option.
Lastly, I'm interested to hear that you have killed an animal in order to eat. Unsurprisingly you sound reluctant to do so again. That's because, like me, you have seen into the eyes of a murdered being. It's a truly life changing moment and I wish more people would experience it.
Maybe you're right, Jimmy, bad choice of website .....I didn't actually read the page content, just the title - and didn't think anybody would take me seriously.
Perhaps I should have used this link instead:
Linky: Careful what you eat
So anybody who's travelled in parts of Asia has probably already eaten cat, dog and long-pig.
Apparently it all tastes the same.
I am laying here suffering with a chest infection and after reading this started to wonder why Iceland were selling pizza with assorted pets (mainly cats) and human meat on. I had to go back to the start to remind myself it actually contained 'tomato sauce, mozzarella cheese, reformed lamb, red onions and green peppers'.
After all the "discussion" the original WTF pizza sounds good and only a pound, bargain;-)
Sounds delicious!
Suffice to say that I do buy into the argument that of all of the places to save a few pennies in your budget, your food (with direct correlation to your health and that of your family) is a strange choice. Reduction of meat consumption (saw an interesting article about making the meat the side dish in any meal...) with the ability to buy what meat you do more selectively with greater knowledge seemed a very reasonable choice, and is one that our family employs. I've cut out alcohol for a significant period of time on a few occasions with little difficulty, but meat is a tougher row to hoe...
In any event, I've really enjoyed this thread...certainly more than a kebab pizza!
The bottom line was though, that I became bored with the diet, missed meat & saw the emergence of organic, free range & more humanely farmed animals.
Nowadays I eat quite a lot of meat & thoroughly enjoy it - just about to cook a nice organic pork tenderloin I picked up earlier today :-)