Former Charlton booboy and scapegoat, the Simon Francis of his day, Radostin Kishishev starkly illustrated the gulf in class between a 36 year old former Premiership player and our much vaunted midfield.
That said the reason many teams are in league 1 is because they are inconsistent. I'm not convinced, love him as I do, that Kish will produce that quality for 46 games. Equally whilst our midfield played very poorly yesterday on a good day they have the ability to compete at midtable Championship level.
The teams that will go up from this division will be the most consistent with the ability to put a run together.
We've already shown we CAN do it. Whether we WILL do it is quite another question!
[cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]On the midfield, I don't disagree that we don't have a real playmaker/creative player in central midfield, but I'm not convinced it's simply down to Parky not seeing it. How many clubs in this league have that type of player? How many were available in the summer and willing to play in League One? There aren't many around at this level, not cheaply either.
Could take a risk on a young loanee from a Prem club, but it would have to be a player capable of playing consistently well at this level to be a real improvement over what we have.
how many teams in this division have created and scored less than us at home?
Created, no idea, scored not many. We all know we need to score more at home, that's fair enough.
No teams have scored as many away from home as us. Midfield must be doing something right for that to happen.
I'd still like to know who these League One play makers are that were available in the summer.
Don't know, thats Parky and Chapple etc' job to sort out. There must have been one we could have signed in the last 4 years surely? I mentioned John Eustace on another thread because he was available about 3/4 years ago and believe it or not, i suggested we should sign him to somebody very influential at the club at the time when we certainly would have been in a position to secure him. We didn't, thats by the by but what i can say is that we haven't signed one proper centre midfield player for years and in that i include Bailey, Andy Reid and the chinaman and Faye. Don't even have to be a playmaker or gifted. I'm talking about a 'proper' central midfield player who isn't a converted defender, winger, attacker, basketballl player or whatever. Thats all.
Fair enough, when you said creator/ball player I thought you meant a playmaker.
I know what you mean, I think we'd all like to have a good all round and consistent CM. If the takeover goes through and we have a bit of money to spend, I would be happy for us to spend that on a CM if we found the right player. Not going to get anyone good enough on a free in January so if we have nothing to spend a loan would probably be the only other option.
I would suggest that if there is any truth in the rumour that Wise is involved and has been spotted taking notes or whatever at the training ground or matches then whatever you or i may think oif the bloke, i'm bloody sure he will have spotted our deficiencies there and i'd be certain that with his contacts in the game, and if the new backers are serious about promotion this year, central midfield will be the first position addressed. The second priority will be another pacey striker and the third will be a bit of pace in central defence. If only 1, it will be CM - I'm convinced of that.
[cite]Posted By: Bexley Dan[/cite]I would suggest that if there is any truth in the rumour that Wise is involved and has been spotted taking notes or whatever at the training ground or matches then whatever you or i may think oif the bloke, i'm bloody sure he will have spotted our deficiencies there and i'd be certain that with his contacts in the game, and if the new backers are serious about promotion this year, central midfield will be the first position addressed. The second priority will be another pacey striker and the third will be a bit of pace in central defence. If only 1, it will be CM - I'm convinced of that.
Although I agree with all that a forward that is utterly dominant in the air would also be good
We are still a big fish in a little pond and Parky did get some decent players to The Valley in Jackson and Reid and previously IMHO Dailley, however. In general terms I agree with bexley dan in that our central midfield is sterile. Semedo is not a central midfielder. We have too many old centre backs. A weak looking front pairing whoever plays out of the five available but worst of all we play consistently dreadful football. The worst in my 49 years before the mast.
[cite]Posted By: Bexley Dan[/cite]I would suggest that if there is any truth in the rumour that Wise is involved and has been spotted taking notes or whatever at the training ground or matches then whatever you or i may think oif the bloke, i'm bloody sure he will have spotted our deficiencies there and i'd be certain that with his contacts in the game, and if the new backers are serious about promotion this year, central midfield will be the first position addressed.
Just about the last thing any club needs is that useless little toerag interfering in the job of the manager. Any Newcastle fan can confirm that.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]We are still a big fish in a little pond and Parky did get some decent players to The Valley in Jackson and Reid and previously IMHO Dailley, however. In general terms I agree with bexley dan in that our central midfield is sterile. Semedo is not a central midfielder. We have too many old centre backs. A weak looking front pairing whoever plays out of the five available but worst of all we play consistently dreadful football. The worst in my 49 years before the mast.
At home yes. Away games we generally play better (although not so much recently admittedly, but look at the Peterborough game) so there must be something to make the whole Jekyll-and-Hyde performances occur.
[cite]Posted By: Bexley Dan[/cite]I would suggest that if there is any truth in the rumour that Wise is involved and has been spotted taking notes or whatever at the training ground or matches then whatever you or i may think oif the bloke, i'm bloody sure he will have spotted our deficiencies there and i'd be certain that with his contacts in the game, and if the new backers are serious about promotion this year, central midfield will be the first position addressed.
Just about the last thing any club needs is that useless little toerag interfering in the job of the manager. Any Newcastle fan can confirm that.
He might be an irritating little tit but he did achieve some success at Millwall but they didn't have the resources / crowds to be able to push on. We would probably be able to provide that bit more than them from a sustainable point of view and if he comes in and wants to be a nasty little shit but gets results and success, i'll take it.
Curious that Connor Gough has gone from on the bench for a Division One match to can't get a game for the Under 18s. I wasn't aware the kids had sufferred any bad defeat or he was culpable for poor goals conceded. I haven't seen much of him and none of Hall, but does anyone know what has gone on? I'm sure Hall and Worner are good keepers but at 6'1" and 6" (if that) they are never going to be great keepers so Gough has more potential at 6'5".
I believe that Connor Gough is injured. He has also had a difficult season in U18s with a number of mistakes.Brandon Hall is 16/17 years old, still time to grow.There have been a number of top goalkeepers who are 6 foot 6 foot 1.
[cite]Posted By: dickplumb[/cite]I believe that Connor Gough is injured. He has also had a difficult season in U18s with a number of mistakes.Brandon Hall is 16/17 years old, still time to grow.There have been a number of top goalkeepers who are 6 foot 6 foot 1.
Added to that I have seen Hall a couple of times and he looks like a fantastic prospect. Really sharp and pretty imposing. I thought he was bigger than 6' personallty
Whilst I'm not saying it's not true tat Wise will be involved, I would caution against reading too much into his attenance at the training ground. Scouts, managers, agents etc etc are regular attendees at the training ground.
[cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]Just checked, Hall is a few months older than Gough.
Both are second years so they need to impress enough to win a pro contract or they'll be released at the end of the season.
Can't see us keeping both, unless they both really impress. It's good they've both had a run in the side this season.
Has anyone here seen both play more than the odd game?
I can't see us keeping either unless they really really impress. The year we kept both Randolph and Elliot was a rare one and although Conner was given a squad number this year he hasn't been trusted enough to appear so I doubt we will spend the little money we have (however low his wages would be) on keeping him.
Since Robbie and Randy, I can't remember a keeper coming through and getting a pro deal.
The likes of Binks, Lee, Christie, Wooley etc have all seemingly struggled to find a way back up the leagues.
As for the 6ft debate, Shay Given is arguably one of the best in the Prem (personally rate him higher than Hart but I am not Mancini) and he is no giant so don't think height will be a massive issue when it comes to deciding who is the better prospect.
Just checked, Hall is a few months older than Gough.( quote)
Both are second years so they need to impress enough to win a pro contract or they'll be released at the end of the season.(quote)
Can't see us keeping both, unless they both really impress. It's good they've both had a run in the side this season.(quote)
Has anyone here seen both play more than the odd game? (quote)
Yes i have seen them a number of times and despite Gough being 6 foot 5 i rate Hall as the better all round goalkeeper. He is very agile and quick on his feet. The Goalkeeper i did rate very highly coming through our youth ranks was Jason Brown, the tank. I was very suprised that we didnt give him a pro contract. I believe he is at Blackburn as understudy to Paul Robinson.
[cite]Posted By: Plaaayer[/cite]I'm pretty confident that Wise isn't involved.
So am I. But its worth repeating that he is bad news. He wants to get involved in clubs by the back door. Whatever Bexley Dan may believe, he is not valued by football as a manager, and so can't get in that way. He doesnt have enough money to buy a club, so he relies on finding people with some money, who then bring him in the back door, as at Newcastle.
My personal opinion is that he is attracted by the business of "trading" players, but does not want the hassle of becoming an agent. The Israeli bloke is probably his role model for this.
You are either the investor, with money, or you are not. You are either the manager, or you are not. Wise is neither. Lets keep it that way.
Sorry this is off topic, but the very thought of him winds me up. I'll go and clear some snow :-)
[cite]Posted By: cafcdan18[/cite]Since Robbie and Randy, I can't remember a keeper coming through and getting a pro deal.
The likes of Binks, Lee, Christie, Wooley etc have all seemingly struggled to find a way back up the leagues.
As for the 6ft debate, Shay Given is arguably one of the best in the Prem (personally rate him higher than Hart but I am not Mancini) and he is no giant so don't think height will be a massive issue when it comes to deciding who is the better prospect.
You say that but Fulham released a really highly rated keeper at 11 years old or something stupid because bone analysis revealed he wouldnt get much over 6'
[cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]Just checked, Hall is a few months older than Gough.
Both are second years so they need to impress enough to win a pro contract or they'll be released at the end of the season.
Can't see us keeping both, unless they both really impress. It's good they've both had a run in the side this season.
Has anyone here seen both play more than the odd game?
I've seen both play twice so again not a hugh amount to go on however as an ex goalie I do watch them pretty closely
Gough struck me as a big lad who wasn't good enough to play on pitch and then got lumped in goal. Good kick but not especially dominant at claiming crosses despite his height advantage. I wasn't massively impressed if I am honest
Hall made several superb stops in one match and was largely a spectator in the other though made a smart stop late on (a good sign). I'd like to see more of him because he looked quite a prospect
[cite]Posted By: Swisdom[/cite]You say that but Fulham released a really highly rated keeper at 11 years old or something stupid because bone analysis revealed he wouldnt get much over 6'
That's just an example of foolishness rather than backing up the argument that keepers have to be tall for them to be good if he really was released just because he wasn't going to be a giant.
Who decides the level at which a keeper is too short? Is it 5'11, 6', 6'1 or 6'2? I would accept that there is a trend that keepers are getting taller, but you can't compare 2 keepers on height alone.
Who decides the level at which a keeper is too short? Is it 5'11, 6', 6'1 or 6'2? I would accept that there is a trend that keepers are getting taller, but you can't compare 2 keepers on height alone.
Sorry but I think a good big'un is always better than a good little'un. It would be nice to see a keeper for us who commands his area like say Sasa did. I don't mind the odd howler, because coming for crosses saves potential problems later in a move.
[cite]Posted By: dabos[/cite]
Who decides the level at which a keeper is too short? Is it 5'11, 6', 6'1 or 6'2? I would accept that there is a trend that keepers are getting taller, but you can't compare 2 keepers on height alone.
Sorry but I think a good big'un is always better than a good little'un. It would be nice to see a keeper for us who commands his area like say Sasa did. I don't mind the odd howler, because coming for crosses saves potential problems later in a move.
Iker Casillas, arguably the best keeper of the last 10 years, is 5'11.
[cite]Posted By: dickplumb[/cite]Just checked, Hall is a few months older than Gough.( quote)
Both are second years so they need to impress enough to win a pro contract or they'll be released at the end of the season.(quote)
Can't see us keeping both, unless they both really impress. It's good they've both had a run in the side this season.(quote)
Has anyone here seen both play more than the odd game? (quote)
Yes i have seen them a number of times and despite Gough being 6 foot 5 i rate Hall as the better all round goalkeeper. He is very agile and quick on his feet. The Goalkeeper i did rate very highly coming through our youth ranks was Jason Brown, the tank. I was very suprised that we didnt give him a pro contract. I believe he is at Blackburn as understudy to Paul Robinson.
Jason Brown is actually only 5"11 I think, certainly is not 6ft. At the time we let him go, he was nowhere near the first team and needed to go to Gills to get regular football- pretty sure apart from Deano, we also had Rachubka and maybe Roberts/Ilic who would have been ahead of Brown if any injuries. He has barely played in the last 4 years aside from a few odd games on loan. I think Leeds rated him when he played 2-3 games this season there whilst he has played the last couple of Orient games and apparantly did well on Sat.
When I saw Gough play pre season for 1st team he looked strong and confident. Hall has no presence or strength from what I recall. To me, Gough looks a far better long term prospect and I have previously scouted for several league teams.
[cite]Posted By: PaulCAFC[/cite]When I saw Gough play pre season for 1st team he looked strong and confident. Hall has no presence or strength from what I recall. To me, Gough looks a far better long term prospect and I have previously scouted for several league teams.
Gough obviously had a good presence and he did look confident when I saw him - unfortunately he flapped at a few crosses and was beaten on his near post IIRC. Cardinal sins for a keeper
Are you joking? Beaten at the near post - what and no other keeper has ever been beaten that manner? Leave the kid alone to develop, which is why he is there.
Comments
That said the reason many teams are in league 1 is because they are inconsistent. I'm not convinced, love him as I do, that Kish will produce that quality for 46 games. Equally whilst our midfield played very poorly yesterday on a good day they have the ability to compete at midtable Championship level.
The teams that will go up from this division will be the most consistent with the ability to put a run together.
We've already shown we CAN do it. Whether we WILL do it is quite another question!
Don't know, thats Parky and Chapple etc' job to sort out. There must have been one we could have signed in the last 4 years surely? I mentioned John Eustace on another thread because he was available about 3/4 years ago and believe it or not, i suggested we should sign him to somebody very influential at the club at the time when we certainly would have been in a position to secure him. We didn't, thats by the by but what i can say is that we haven't signed one proper centre midfield player for years and in that i include Bailey, Andy Reid and the chinaman and Faye. Don't even have to be a playmaker or gifted. I'm talking about a 'proper' central midfield player who isn't a converted defender, winger, attacker, basketballl player or whatever. Thats all.
I know what you mean, I think we'd all like to have a good all round and consistent CM. If the takeover goes through and we have a bit of money to spend, I would be happy for us to spend that on a CM if we found the right player. Not going to get anyone good enough on a free in January so if we have nothing to spend a loan would probably be the only other option.
Could Woodman going mean we could get another experienced Goalie / Coach in .
For example could Andy Marshall be tempted ?
Although I agree with all that a forward that is utterly dominant in the air would also be good
Just about the last thing any club needs is that useless little toerag interfering in the job of the manager. Any Newcastle fan can confirm that.
At home yes. Away games we generally play better (although not so much recently admittedly, but look at the Peterborough game) so there must be something to make the whole Jekyll-and-Hyde performances occur.
Step forward DEANOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Paul is a local lad as well, we both used to play for North Kent schools and Welling United together. He may just fancy a move back down south.
He might be an irritating little tit but he did achieve some success at Millwall but they didn't have the resources / crowds to be able to push on. We would probably be able to provide that bit more than them from a sustainable point of view and if he comes in and wants to be a nasty little shit but gets results and success, i'll take it.
Added to that I have seen Hall a couple of times and he looks like a fantastic prospect. Really sharp and pretty imposing. I thought he was bigger than 6' personallty
Both are second years so they need to impress enough to win a pro contract or they'll be released at the end of the season.
Can't see us keeping both, unless they both really impress. It's good they've both had a run in the side this season.
Has anyone here seen both play more than the odd game?
I can't see us keeping either unless they really really impress. The year we kept both Randolph and Elliot was a rare one and although Conner was given a squad number this year he hasn't been trusted enough to appear so I doubt we will spend the little money we have (however low his wages would be) on keeping him.
The likes of Binks, Lee, Christie, Wooley etc have all seemingly struggled to find a way back up the leagues.
As for the 6ft debate, Shay Given is arguably one of the best in the Prem (personally rate him higher than Hart but I am not Mancini) and he is no giant so don't think height will be a massive issue when it comes to deciding who is the better prospect.
Both are second years so they need to impress enough to win a pro contract or they'll be released at the end of the season.(quote)
Can't see us keeping both, unless they both really impress. It's good they've both had a run in the side this season.(quote)
Has anyone here seen both play more than the odd game? (quote)
Yes i have seen them a number of times and despite Gough being 6 foot 5 i rate Hall as the better all round goalkeeper. He is very agile and quick on his feet. The Goalkeeper i did rate very highly coming through our youth ranks was Jason Brown, the tank. I was very suprised that we didnt give him a pro contract. I believe he is at Blackburn as understudy to Paul Robinson.
So am I. But its worth repeating that he is bad news. He wants to get involved in clubs by the back door. Whatever Bexley Dan may believe, he is not valued by football as a manager, and so can't get in that way. He doesnt have enough money to buy a club, so he relies on finding people with some money, who then bring him in the back door, as at Newcastle.
My personal opinion is that he is attracted by the business of "trading" players, but does not want the hassle of becoming an agent. The Israeli bloke is probably his role model for this.
You are either the investor, with money, or you are not. You are either the manager, or you are not. Wise is neither. Lets keep it that way.
Sorry this is off topic, but the very thought of him winds me up. I'll go and clear some snow :-)
You say that but Fulham released a really highly rated keeper at 11 years old or something stupid because bone analysis revealed he wouldnt get much over 6'
I've seen both play twice so again not a hugh amount to go on however as an ex goalie I do watch them pretty closely
Gough struck me as a big lad who wasn't good enough to play on pitch and then got lumped in goal. Good kick but not especially dominant at claiming crosses despite his height advantage. I wasn't massively impressed if I am honest
Hall made several superb stops in one match and was largely a spectator in the other though made a smart stop late on (a good sign). I'd like to see more of him because he looked quite a prospect
That's just an example of foolishness rather than backing up the argument that keepers have to be tall for them to be good if he really was released just because he wasn't going to be a giant.
Who decides the level at which a keeper is too short? Is it 5'11, 6', 6'1 or 6'2? I would accept that there is a trend that keepers are getting taller, but you can't compare 2 keepers on height alone.
Iker Casillas, arguably the best keeper of the last 10 years, is 5'11.
Jason Brown is actually only 5"11 I think, certainly is not 6ft. At the time we let him go, he was nowhere near the first team and needed to go to Gills to get regular football- pretty sure apart from Deano, we also had Rachubka and maybe Roberts/Ilic who would have been ahead of Brown if any injuries. He has barely played in the last 4 years aside from a few odd games on loan. I think Leeds rated him when he played 2-3 games this season there whilst he has played the last couple of Orient games and apparantly did well on Sat.
Gough obviously had a good presence and he did look confident when I saw him - unfortunately he flapped at a few crosses and was beaten on his near post IIRC. Cardinal sins for a keeper