Oh and another thing, Slater and Jiminez, 'we need continuity' - Parky sacked 5 days later.
'Wise isn't involved in any way' - Looking at the bookies, he is now
'We'll identify players to move us upwards' - By YouTube or Football Manager 2011?
I'm not liking the mix of old and new Charlton at the moment, Varney, Peacock and Murray, Slater, Jiminez and in all probability, Wise, seems like too many people who will clash, and as the new guys are the ones with the clout, I predict a pretty bleak future for us
[cite]Posted By: sam3110[/cite]Oh and another thing, Slater and Jiminez, 'we need continuity' - Parky sacked 5 days later.
'Wise isn't involved in any way' - Looking at the bookies, he is now
'We'll identify players to move us upwards' - By YouTube or Football Manager 2011?
I'm not liking the mix of old and new Charlton at the moment, Varney, Peacock and Murray, Slater, Jiminez and in all probability, Wise, seems like too many people who will clash, and as the new guys are the ones with the clout, I predict a pretty bleak future for us
Certainly no bleaker than the vacant seats at t
The Valley and thousands swarming out of the ground long before the end of the match. That's what you want to cling to ? Truly bizarre. Just my opinion of course.
haven't read a lot of this but i agree with shooters hill guru completely and if some are upset by parkys sacking then fair enough but why is beyond me. the honourable thing has been done by the new board - when a manager and his staff get the sack they hitt the jackpot as they get paid up their conytract and can walk into another job. Delaying it til the end of the season would have probably cost all 3 financially and making there jobs untenable and forcing them to resign woulfd have been wrong and helped nobody. quite frankly i find anybody who is upset by the sacking a bit ridiculous given the utter dross i've been watching, not to mention the 4-0 to millwall and the northwich victoria effort. do you not want charlton to be successful? parky and co were the cheap option and thankfully we don't have to settle for that now.
[cite]Posted By: sam3110[/cite]Oh and another thing, Slater and Jiminez, 'we need continuity' - Parky sacked 5 days later.
'Wise isn't involved in any way' - Looking at the bookies, he is now
'We'll identify players to move us upwards' - By YouTube or Football Manager 2011?
I'm not liking the mix of old and new Charlton at the moment, Varney, Peacock and Murray, Slater, Jiminez and in all probability, Wise, seems like too many people who will clash, and as the new guys are the ones with the clout, I predict a pretty bleak future for us
or maybe they have got more balls than others and have got rid while its still recoverable
Slater gave the game away yesterday when he said targets had been identified and talks were under way before he and parky had sat down.
[cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Let's not get this out of proportion. Certainly Parky is a nice man and I genuinely feel for him, Breacker and Kins losing their job. Who wouldn't. Having said that let's remember that the vast majority of jobs in football are obtained off the back of someone getting sacked. It's par for the course in football and all three know the score in that respect. No doubt all will find future football jobs in the wake of someone elses misfortune.
To those of you not happy with these sackings all I can say is that fortunately you are in the minority. I want Charlton to be a great club both on and off the pitch and sacking our manager and coaching staff hasn't suddenly turned us into anything other than what we already are a decent club with decent supporters and we always will be. If a hardened edge has been added then that's all to the good as far as I am concerned if it brings success where recently there has been only abject failure. If driving away a small minority of fans who cannot accept what is right for the club as a whole is the price of success then it's a pity but that's their choice. What has just been removed by the boards action has rejuvenated the majority of the support that actually live in the real world. Parky et al were hard working but not up to the task and were in FACT driving fans away in droves with the boring souless often useless style of football. I applaud the new owners and Varney and Murray who also made the decision to sack all three. Good luck Phil, Tim and Mark I genuinely wish you well in the future.
Dennis Wise is about to be installed as the new manager of Charlton Athletic Football Club and you have the brass neck to tell people that "the small minority of fans who cannot accept what is right for the club as a whole is the price of success then it's a pity but that's their choice." What arrogance.
The world has well and truly gone mad. Weren't we also promised a "hardened edge" by Pardew as well? How did that one turn out in the end?
Sorry but I don't see that as arrogance. I suggest your read the new article by RodneyTrotta. It tells of the reality of what football is and if Charlton want to play they have to harden up. If you can't accept the direction the club is taking I'm very sorry but yes you are in a minority.
I have read his article, nothing particularly persuasive in there as far as I am concerned.
Can someone tell me why we should be so impressed/delighted that Slater and Jiminez have taken over? Neither of them have serious money, the only "hope" that we have is that someone behind them has money. The key word their is "hope" because we know nothing about their backers at all. And they have already said they won't be spending heavily - you can't help but wonder why.
As far as I can see the two new "owners" are a pair of speculators who are hoping to get CAFC back to the promised land - preferably on a shoestring - and make a quick buck via selling the club if and when we get there.
If they shell out some serious money in the transfer window then I will change my opinion of them but so far all they have done is to promise the manager their support and then sack him a week later. While we are in the Play Off places and in the FA Cup 3rd Round.
Not the most encouraging start.
things had reached a point whereby if donald duck had taken over i'd be happy and i'm quite willing to hope and believe that we are now on the up. the pessimism from some people is depressing. of course there's a chance it could all turn to shit but it was shit anyway so anything must be worth a go. whats the worst that can happen? we end up in administration - we was heading for that anyway.
I wish PP TB and Kins (a real Charlton legend) all the best and thank them for all they have done for the club and I genuinely think they gave it their all, sadly that was not enough for the board and many fans, ultimately it is the correct decision in my view, we need to get out of this league and the former management team were unlikely to really achieve that (however much we would love for them to have done so) football is not a sentimental sport and things have to go on.
[cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite] the bookies are red hot on Wise and they are not wrong very often.
Actually Ormiston, if you look at the bookies odds for football jobs, they seldom get it right!
There may well be a role for Wise, but possibly not as manager. Not sure he actually wants to run around on a training ground shouting at young men half his age on a cold Feb morning any more: so there may well be a manager to do that part of the job under his overall direction.
But let's face it - none of us really know yet, do we?
As for Sam 3110 predicting ''a pretty bleak future for us'' - cheer up, FFS!!! The bleak future was under Murray and the club sinking into administration. For the first time in several years we now have a future. And, as Murray and Varney and Peacock have all reassured you, the arrival of the new owners was a great day for the club and in the best interests of all of us. If you refuse to believe them, then that's up to you.
There's a very weird thing has happened on this board over the last 24 hours. Suddenly all those who were accused of wearing rose-tints are now depressed and miserable and moaning fit to bust about the end of civilsation as we know it. And those of us who were accused of being miserbale whingers who were only happy when Charlton lose are full of hope and optimism.
The world - or at least that little part of it called SE7 - has, indeed, been turned upside down.
"It was shit anyway so anything must be worth a go...."
In the Play Offs and FA Cup 3rd Round, yeah, definitely deserves the sack for that.
Six weeks ago we were beating Swindon 3-0 away and Peterborough 5-1 and PP was Manager of the Month.
Get with the program people, the new wide boy owners wanted the arch wide-boy himself as manager from the start and now they will get him.
With our "fans" we don't deserve a decent man like PP as manager, Wise will be much more their cup of tea. Just remind me again of Dennis' amazing managerial record again?
I'm sorry to see Parky go, in a sport not known for loyalty and decency he had character traits that were admirable and not shared by many.
At least he kept his honour, but the shambles on the park last night demonstrated that he could no longer motivate and push a team forward. He did his best and survived on scraps, but that can no longer be good enough when a team barely seem to be acquainted with their colleagues and were clearly unhappy playing to a formation that seemed to surrender the midfield to the opposition.
[cite]Posted By: Weegie Addick[/cite]Parkinson was the right type of character for the Charlton I knew and loved. But that Charlton has been subsumed in an atmosphere of hostility from a vocal minority - both at The Valley and on here. I'm really worried about the future direction of this club now.
Very, very well said. I wish I could have put it as well myself.
nothing like disguising the inadequacies on the pitch and the dug-out with a very small few in the stands.
As you say IA I can understand why people feel for Parky and Kins and Breacker for using their jobs, it isn't nice feeling, I should know, but if you are a Charlton fan surely your overriding emotion is for Charlton to be successful and this decision now gives us a better chance of success and hopefully a chance to go to games at The Valley with renewed optimism and not a feeling of dread of what you about to witness. These last two years going has become a chore. Now I'm looking forward to the next game with renewed vigour and a spring in my step.
[cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite]
With our "fans" we don't deserve a decent man like PP as manager
if you wanna be his mate, add him on facebook. his football is shite.
how anyone can think he is a good manager (i dont care if he's a bloody jehovahs witness or founded UNICEF, im talking football terms) is beyond me and i presume you dont go to our games.
[quote][cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite]"It was shit anyway so anything must be worth a go...."
In the Play Offs and FA Cup 3rd Round, yeah, definitely deserves the sack for that.
Six weeks ago we were beating Swindon 3-0 away and Peterborough 5-1 and PP was Manager of the Month.
Get with the program people, the new wide boy owners wanted the arch wide-boy himself as manager from the start and now they will get him.
With our "fans" we don't deserve a decent man like PP as manager, Wise will be much more their cup of tea. Just remind me again of Dennis' amazing managerial record again?[/quote]
Ormiston...you are making a massive assumption that Wise will take over. If he were going to, his feet would be under the table by now.
Sadly Parky had to go - in several recent matches we struggled to beat non-league Luton, lost to Walsall, Swindon and twice played teams that were reduced to ten men and still couldn't win. That isn't promotion form and the evidence of that form is that the team had stopped playing for him. Why, I don't know, but if McCormack's tweet last night about going to the Oxo Tower restaurant was anything to go by then they didn't care about the result, or at least one member of the team clearly didn't care, and that is at least one too many as far as I'm concerned.
The window is open and there will be (I hope) some money spent and you may as well let a new managerial team spend it.
You must also bear in mind that our new owners didn't get rich by being nice people and tolerating second best. Things have changed at SE7.
[cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite]
Get with the program people, the new wide boy owners wanted the arch wide-boy himself as manager from the start and now they will get him.
With our "fans" we don't deserve a decent man like PP as manager, Wise will be much more their cup of tea. Just remind me again of Dennis' amazing managerial record again?
Come again? Charlton have been riding a handcart to hell for the last 3-4 years, under bust owners, inept managers and with poor players. And yet you would prefer to attack ''the new wide-boy owners'' and someone you claim is going to be our new manager but hasn't yet been appointed? Oh yes, and the fans . Sorry, the ''fans'' .
Come on Ormiston, you're much better than that. You've always posted thoroughly level-headed and sensible opinions. Which is what makes your posts tonight seem utterly surreal.
Cheer up, everyone. Remember what Murray and Varney said about the change of ownership being great news for everyone who loves Charlton?
It is. Without the takeover we would most likely have gone into administration this summer. How long I wonder, before someone comes on here to tell us that would be a better fate than being saved by ''the wide boys'' ?
In response to Ormy I don't think Wise will be Manager. But should we have kept Parky because he was a nice guy. Is Fergie a nice guy? Probably not but he's bloody successful. Ultimately you'd like a nice decent guy who is a success but I'd prefer a successful guy over a nice guy as long as he isn't a convicted rapist or murderer. Saying that I wouldn't be total happy if it were wise but I dont think it will be.
[cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]In response to Ormy I don't think Wise will be Manager. But should we have kept Parky because he was a nice guy. Is Fergie a nice guy? Probably not but he's bloody successful. Ultimately you'd like a nice decent guy who is a success but I'd prefer a successful guy over a nice guy as long as he isn't a convicted rapist or murderer. Saying that I wouldn't be total happy if it were wise but I dont think it will be.
[quote][cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]In response to Ormy I don't think Wise will be Manager. But should we have kept Parky because he was a nice guy. Is Fergie a nice guy? Probably not but he's bloody successful. Ultimately you'd like a nice decent guy who is a success but I'd prefer a successful guy over a nice guy as long as he isn't a convicted rapist or murderer. Saying that I wouldn't be total happy if it were wise but I dont think it will be.[/quote]
Bloody Hell Large! I would not compare Sir Alex to Little Dennis in the presence of the man from Govan, he'd stick his famous hairdryer right up your arse!
I don't want Wise either, as I have often found him to be an odiuos little man.
However I have to agree with the maority on here that Parky had to be shown the door.
Being dicked 4-0 at home by BHA, then losing at home to the bottom club, and then being dicked at home 4-2 by the might of Swindon Town are the kind of results that would make any board nervous.
When you throw in the two recent draws against 10 men, you start to build a picture that we are lacking a certain something at present.
Overall Parky has done a decent job, but you would have to say that if you had had the chnace to lay money on him being the man to take us up, you would probably keep your money in your pockets.
If we were sitting mid table in the prem then all this would worry me.But we're not are we.
We find ourselves doing ok, playing pretty unattractive football in the THIRD tier.Now's as good as time as any to change it.
At best,with Parkinson in charge,I could see us repeating the disappointment of last year.We just don't look like kicking on.I'm sure the new board think the time is now to change it up a bit and hopefully push on.
Not that brave really and also not a gamble when you consider the esteem Parky is held in footballing terms not gentlemanly ones.
Relieved about Parky's departure; decent man though he undoubtedly is, he was not a good enough manager for our team. Also sorry to see Kins (especially - I adored him as a player) go and Breacker to a point, but they clearly were not doing the business and that is the bottom line. I know some really lovely people, but that does not give them the right to manage Charlton Athletic FC. We have been hapless mugs, losers and a laughing stock for a few years now and I have had enough of it. If that is about to change and we get a bit of steel and a winning mentality back at the club, then I, for one, will enjoy it immensely. This is a brave new era and I can't wait to see what happens.
Compared to dying a slow lingering death involving shit, clueless football, dwindling crowds and, ultimately, administration we have the chance of turning things around and I can't believe that people are upset by the prospect of it - this is a truly exciting time for our club and could be the catalyst that we need to reverse our fortunes. I can understand why people are nervous, but remember that Reg and Minty are involved and they will make sure that things are done right, I honestly believe that.
Our new backers have shown they are no mugs and they want success and that is a breath of fresh air as far as I am concerned. If Wise turns up in some capacity, I wouldn't be surprised, but I would judge him on what he does for CAFC and give him a chance. If he helps make our club a force again, then I would gladly shake the little spanner's hand. What this club desperately needs is some success, because we have forgotten what being succesful means and we were never going to experience that with Parky IMHO, so I am glad that we have a chance to maybe find out with a new set of staff and a new approach, because the old one just wasn't working. I am actually very positive and excited about the future of our club now. Whether that is misplaced, I will find out in the future, but for now, I just want to enjoy that feeling again because it's been too bloody long!
we have so many apologists for fans that are so accepting of utter fucking tosh that i sometimes think we deserve to be a fucking no mark third division club cos that is what we have been in the process of becoming make no mistake
every poxy excuse rolled out by the same old lame ducks after every dreary performance
this season was turning into the we're still 5th season when we somehow managed to hold onto a decent position in the league when performances and results were so dire only a hardened rose tinted apologist couldn't see what was happening and we all know we finished 11th that season
the timing of this isn't ideal and i for one don't sit comfortably with any of this new owners stuff , i'd like to see the colour of their money and hopefully we will in their choice of manager and the sort of players we bring in during the window
my big fear is that this new mob are using us as a free bet(they're not gonna lose any real money) by leveraging us up and if it does go all tits up where we gonna be left
i want us to win and be successful not fanny around being nice to this person or that person
anyway the most important thing is getting out of this league so fingers crossed
nope , i'll leave them unchanged till i see who comes in and what players come or go , the players aren't that pony the league is pony .....if a manager i like comes in(not sure who i like) they will improve .... if its a bad un they'll stay the same .....
for some bizarre reason i'm so gutted for phil but when my 4 year old at his 3rd game put his hands over his eyes last night saying i can't watch it it's not fair, there was only one thing that could happen
Comments
'Wise isn't involved in any way' - Looking at the bookies, he is now
'We'll identify players to move us upwards' - By YouTube or Football Manager 2011?
I'm not liking the mix of old and new Charlton at the moment, Varney, Peacock and Murray, Slater, Jiminez and in all probability, Wise, seems like too many people who will clash, and as the new guys are the ones with the clout, I predict a pretty bleak future for us
Certainly no bleaker than the vacant seats at t
The Valley and thousands swarming out of the ground long before the end of the match. That's what you want to cling to ? Truly bizarre. Just my opinion of course.
or maybe they have got more balls than others and have got rid while its still recoverable
Slater gave the game away yesterday when he said targets had been identified and talks were under way before he and parky had sat down.
bleak future no way
things had reached a point whereby if donald duck had taken over i'd be happy and i'm quite willing to hope and believe that we are now on the up. the pessimism from some people is depressing. of course there's a chance it could all turn to shit but it was shit anyway so anything must be worth a go. whats the worst that can happen? we end up in administration - we was heading for that anyway.
Actually Ormiston, if you look at the bookies odds for football jobs, they seldom get it right!
There may well be a role for Wise, but possibly not as manager. Not sure he actually wants to run around on a training ground shouting at young men half his age on a cold Feb morning any more: so there may well be a manager to do that part of the job under his overall direction.
But let's face it - none of us really know yet, do we?
As for Sam 3110 predicting ''a pretty bleak future for us'' - cheer up, FFS!!! The bleak future was under Murray and the club sinking into administration. For the first time in several years we now have a future. And, as Murray and Varney and Peacock have all reassured you, the arrival of the new owners was a great day for the club and in the best interests of all of us. If you refuse to believe them, then that's up to you.
There's a very weird thing has happened on this board over the last 24 hours. Suddenly all those who were accused of wearing rose-tints are now depressed and miserable and moaning fit to bust about the end of civilsation as we know it. And those of us who were accused of being miserbale whingers who were only happy when Charlton lose are full of hope and optimism.
The world - or at least that little part of it called SE7 - has, indeed, been turned upside down.
In the Play Offs and FA Cup 3rd Round, yeah, definitely deserves the sack for that.
Six weeks ago we were beating Swindon 3-0 away and Peterborough 5-1 and PP was Manager of the Month.
Get with the program people, the new wide boy owners wanted the arch wide-boy himself as manager from the start and now they will get him.
With our "fans" we don't deserve a decent man like PP as manager, Wise will be much more their cup of tea. Just remind me again of Dennis' amazing managerial record again?
At least he kept his honour, but the shambles on the park last night demonstrated that he could no longer motivate and push a team forward. He did his best and survived on scraps, but that can no longer be good enough when a team barely seem to be acquainted with their colleagues and were clearly unhappy playing to a formation that seemed to surrender the midfield to the opposition.
nothing like disguising the inadequacies on the pitch and the dug-out with a very small few in the stands.
if you wanna be his mate, add him on facebook. his football is shite.
how anyone can think he is a good manager (i dont care if he's a bloody jehovahs witness or founded UNICEF, im talking football terms) is beyond me and i presume you dont go to our games.
In the Play Offs and FA Cup 3rd Round, yeah, definitely deserves the sack for that.
Six weeks ago we were beating Swindon 3-0 away and Peterborough 5-1 and PP was Manager of the Month.
Get with the program people, the new wide boy owners wanted the arch wide-boy himself as manager from the start and now they will get him.
With our "fans" we don't deserve a decent man like PP as manager, Wise will be much more their cup of tea. Just remind me again of Dennis' amazing managerial record again?[/quote]
Ormiston...you are making a massive assumption that Wise will take over. If he were going to, his feet would be under the table by now.
Sadly Parky had to go - in several recent matches we struggled to beat non-league Luton, lost to Walsall, Swindon and twice played teams that were reduced to ten men and still couldn't win. That isn't promotion form and the evidence of that form is that the team had stopped playing for him. Why, I don't know, but if McCormack's tweet last night about going to the Oxo Tower restaurant was anything to go by then they didn't care about the result, or at least one member of the team clearly didn't care, and that is at least one too many as far as I'm concerned.
The window is open and there will be (I hope) some money spent and you may as well let a new managerial team spend it.
You must also bear in mind that our new owners didn't get rich by being nice people and tolerating second best. Things have changed at SE7.
Come again? Charlton have been riding a handcart to hell for the last 3-4 years, under bust owners, inept managers and with poor players. And yet you would prefer to attack ''the new wide-boy owners'' and someone you claim is going to be our new manager but hasn't yet been appointed? Oh yes, and the fans . Sorry, the ''fans'' .
Come on Ormiston, you're much better than that. You've always posted thoroughly level-headed and sensible opinions. Which is what makes your posts tonight seem utterly surreal.
Cheer up, everyone. Remember what Murray and Varney said about the change of ownership being great news for everyone who loves Charlton?
It is. Without the takeover we would most likely have gone into administration this summer. How long I wonder, before someone comes on here to tell us that would be a better fate than being saved by ''the wide boys'' ?
Simple enough...............??????
Oh, I don't know maybe its because he is the sort of bloke that does this......
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/l/leicester_city/2157377.stm
Or, alternatively, it could be that he is involved in stuff like this....
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/2484437/Not-my-fault-says-Xisco.html
Then again, this lot should give you a fair idea.....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-510889/Dennis-Wise-Factfile.html
I don't want vermin like this involved in my football club.
Bloody Hell Large! I would not compare Sir Alex to Little Dennis in the presence of the man from Govan, he'd stick his famous hairdryer right up your arse!
However I have to agree with the maority on here that Parky had to be shown the door.
Being dicked 4-0 at home by BHA, then losing at home to the bottom club, and then being dicked at home 4-2 by the might of Swindon Town are the kind of results that would make any board nervous.
When you throw in the two recent draws against 10 men, you start to build a picture that we are lacking a certain something at present.
Overall Parky has done a decent job, but you would have to say that if you had had the chnace to lay money on him being the man to take us up, you would probably keep your money in your pockets.
Oh dearie me.
We find ourselves doing ok, playing pretty unattractive football in the THIRD tier.Now's as good as time as any to change it.
At best,with Parkinson in charge,I could see us repeating the disappointment of last year.We just don't look like kicking on.I'm sure the new board think the time is now to change it up a bit and hopefully push on.
Not that brave really and also not a gamble when you consider the esteem Parky is held in footballing terms not gentlemanly ones.
Compared to dying a slow lingering death involving shit, clueless football, dwindling crowds and, ultimately, administration we have the chance of turning things around and I can't believe that people are upset by the prospect of it - this is a truly exciting time for our club and could be the catalyst that we need to reverse our fortunes. I can understand why people are nervous, but remember that Reg and Minty are involved and they will make sure that things are done right, I honestly believe that.
Our new backers have shown they are no mugs and they want success and that is a breath of fresh air as far as I am concerned. If Wise turns up in some capacity, I wouldn't be surprised, but I would judge him on what he does for CAFC and give him a chance. If he helps make our club a force again, then I would gladly shake the little spanner's hand. What this club desperately needs is some success, because we have forgotten what being succesful means and we were never going to experience that with Parky IMHO, so I am glad that we have a chance to maybe find out with a new set of staff and a new approach, because the old one just wasn't working. I am actually very positive and excited about the future of our club now. Whether that is misplaced, I will find out in the future, but for now, I just want to enjoy that feeling again because it's been too bloody long!
every poxy excuse rolled out by the same old lame ducks after every dreary performance
this season was turning into the we're still 5th season when we somehow managed to hold onto a decent position in the league when performances and results were so dire only a hardened rose tinted apologist couldn't see what was happening and we all know we finished 11th that season
the timing of this isn't ideal and i for one don't sit comfortably with any of this new owners stuff , i'd like to see the colour of their money and hopefully we will in their choice of manager and the sort of players we bring in during the window
my big fear is that this new mob are using us as a free bet(they're not gonna lose any real money) by leveraging us up and if it does go all tits up where we gonna be left
i want us to win and be successful not fanny around being nice to this person or that person
anyway the most important thing is getting out of this league so fingers crossed
totally agree
nope , i'll leave them unchanged till i see who comes in and what players come or go , the players aren't that pony the league is pony .....if a manager i like comes in(not sure who i like) they will improve .... if its a bad un they'll stay the same .....
for some bizarre reason i'm so gutted for phil but when my 4 year old at his 3rd game put his hands over his eyes last night saying i can't watch it it's not fair, there was only one thing that could happen
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1343994/Phil-Parkinson-axed-Charlton-Dennis-Wise-emerges-contender-managers-job.html
Nothing substantial there yet.....
As for my earlier post, let me make it clear that it solely Wise that I was referring to a "vermin" rather than the new owners.
For some reason, I just can't imagine Alan Curbishley punching someone in the face while they were asleep.....