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Crystal Palace new ground plans

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  • edited May 2012
    If Charlton had neve left the Valley in 1985, the I can quite imagine us (like Millwall) moving to a new ground in the early 90s, the old Valley was a dump...
    But our circumstances are complately different now, we've already spent a fortune on our current ground, currently it is easily large enough for our fanbase, and it generates lots of commercial and corporate money already. Further, the Greenwich peninsula is a poor location for the majority of Charlton fans who come from Bexleyheath, Dartford and Kent, the Jubilee Line is no good for them, and imagine what the roads around there will be like is there is a blockage at the Blackwall Tunnel.
    Come on, being a bit pedantic now ! - How often is the Blackwall Tunnel blocked on a Saturday at 3pm !! And if it is, why isnt it going to affect anybody going to the Valley now??.
    I can just see the Directors quotes to the Media...." We felt it wasnt appropriate to move to a new Stadium which made sound financial sense, because we were afraid of the times when the Blackwall Tunnel is closed" doh.
  • As a few have stated, this seems to have derailed the original argument, so i'll start a new discussion - should keep us arguing for a couple of days !
  • We already have/had permission for 40,000 capacity.
    Forget the sentimental element of the Valley? After 50 years, nah not me.
    Not saying I'd give up if we moved, but as more and more people are priced out of top live games can't see the attraction of a potential white elephant by the river.
    "Your ground is too big for you" etc
    Cant believe that anyone would say that transport would be worse for 95 per cent of fans - have you ever been to the O2??
    .
    Doesn't everyone moan about the useless Jubilee Line at the O2? How else do you get to the peninsula? 40,000 fans all changing at London Bridge to get the Jubilee?
    Ever heard of the huge car parks at the O2 ?
    Or the 472 and 161 buses, (which incidentally, go past the Valley )

    What about the large amont of fans who get trains from Kent to Charlton Station? Much harder for them.
  • As a few have stated, this seems to have derailed the original argument, so i'll start a new discussion - should keep us arguing for a couple of days !
    There isn't an argument!
  • We already have/had permission for 40,000 capacity.
    Forget the sentimental element of the Valley? After 50 years, nah not me.
    Not saying I'd give up if we moved, but as more and more people are priced out of top live games can't see the attraction of a potential white elephant by the river.
    "Your ground is too big for you" etc
    Cant believe that anyone would say that transport would be worse for 95 per cent of fans - have you ever been to the O2??
    .
    Doesn't everyone moan about the useless Jubilee Line at the O2? How else do you get to the peninsula? 40,000 fans all changing at London Bridge to get the Jubilee?
    Ever heard of the huge car parks at the O2 ?
    Or the 472 and 161 buses, (which incidentally, go past the Valley )

    What about the large amont of fans who get trains from Kent to Charlton Station? Much harder for them.
    Charlton being Charlton, i'm sure that the club would set up a shuttle bus between Charlton station and Peninsula.
    Isnt there also a plan to extend the Jubilee to Woolwich Arsenal? or am i dreaming that up ?
  • Portsmouth Addick

    Just out of interest, how old are you?
  • I don't think there is anything wrong with the club having an interest in what happens with the Penisula masterplan, if a 40k stadium is built, we should be in a position to protect the long term survival of the club, over someone else moving there.
  • We already have/had permission for 40,000 capacity.
    Forget the sentimental element of the Valley? After 50 years, nah not me.
    Not saying I'd give up if we moved, but as more and more people are priced out of top live games can't see the attraction of a potential white elephant by the river.
    "Your ground is too big for you" etc
    Cant believe that anyone would say that transport would be worse for 95 per cent of fans - have you ever been to the O2??
    .
    Doesn't everyone moan about the useless Jubilee Line at the O2? How else do you get to the peninsula? 40,000 fans all changing at London Bridge to get the Jubilee?
    Ever heard of the huge car parks at the O2 ?
    Or the 472 and 161 buses, (which incidentally, go past the Valley )

    What about the large amont of fans who get trains from Kent to Charlton Station? Much harder for them.
    Charlton being Charlton, i'm sure that the club would set up a shuttle bus between Charlton station and Peninsula.
    Isnt there also a plan to extend the Jubilee to Woolwich Arsenal? or am i dreaming that up ?
    So you admit it would be harder for a huge amount of our fans to attend home games?
  • Charlton being Charlton, i'm sure that the club would set up a shuttle bus between Charlton station and Peninsula. Isnt there also a plan to extend the Jubilee to Woolwich Arsenal? or am i dreaming that up ?
    Dreaming it up.
    I don't think there is anything wrong with the club having an interest in what happens with the Penisula masterplan, if a 40k stadium is built, we should be in a position to protect the long term survival of the club, over someone else moving there.
    Who would move their? milwall? Leyton Orient?

  • The advantage of The Valley is that it can be expanded as and when needed.

    It was too big for us in League 1; it was too big for us in the Championship, if we are honest about it.

    There is no good reason for moving to a new ground unless it offers more facilities and/or a bigger capacity, but we are not likely to need a much bigger capacity in the very short term.

    The suggestions that in the Premier League we could justify 40,000 ignores the fact that we are incredibly unlikely to be able to stay in the Premier League for an extended period. Even if we can manage to average half of our time in the Premier League and half in the second tier we would have massive shortfalls on the running of the stadium. It has been suggested that The Valley (at 27,000) was one of the causes for the financial hardship in the Championship, never mind the third division.

    Moving to a 40,000 stadium and increasing the capacity by 13,000 in one hit could be disastrous. Building it up by a few thousand at a time as we need it is a much more sensible approach, in my opinion.

    Portsmouth I admire your logical, pragmatic, approach but I think many don't like it. For me it's not all about The Valley but the (in my view) inaccurate extrapolation that by default a bigger stadium means more fans and more money. Man Utd might be able to sell as many seats as they can build. Maybe they could sell out a 200,000 stadium each week, I don't know, but I'm confident that, even in the Premier League, we would would not have unlimited demand for Charlton matches. Moving to a 40,000 stadium could be a complete disaster in the Premier League, never mind in the division that we have spent much more time in the last fifty years.
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  • From what Murray said they were concerned about a West Ham type move, so if the Olympic Stadium doesn't work out, they might go for that stadium instead.
  • The outdoor arena down the road has no no roof - think of how many people we get down the valley when it's cold and damp with a bit of protection due to having a roof ; now think of how many people we would get in an open air arena when it's cold , damp and Rainy- 5k ?
    The majority of the football season is during times that there is rain , so there could be a lot of money lost
    If and it's a big if Charlton were to move to a new stadium then I can categorically assure you that there will be a roof.

    Thank you Shooters, has anybody heard of negotiation ? If it doesnt suit us then we dont move, simples. If its to be a state-of-the-art stadium then it will have to have 1) a roof (or 2) and 2) Decent beer.
    If it is beneficial to the club and helps us move forward then sentiment and heritage, i'm afraid, goes out the window. You cant just sit there and say you're not moving because you've always gone to the Valley,and your Dad and Grandad did too if so, then goodbye - you can stay there and watch Dartford, coz i'm going to the new stadium to watch us play Arsenal.
    Move on, get real, and think of what could happen.
    To me, its a total, absolute no-brainer- its at least a no-brainer not to dismiss it before we know what it is. ! Surely.



    You said it was " a 40,000 stadium effectively given to us" but none of that is accurate.

    There has been vague talk of an arena that might be built, funding, shape, capacity, roof, usage not specified. Nowhere has it officially been said it will have 40k seats or that anyone is going to be given to anyone.

    Charlton, quite rightly, have taken an interest because they need to be aware of what is happening on their doorstep for both the opportunities (a new state of the art stadium perhaps) and the threats (another team moving in) such an arena might offer. That is because the Club have heard of negotiation and want to be round the table from the start to know about and influence what might happen.

    Nothing is agreed and most likely the arena won't be built for many years, if ever.

    Personally I have no problem moving to another stadium but there are certain caveats on that. The Stadium would have to be owned or under our control, be significantly better in size and facilities that is potentially available at the Valley, It would have to have the potential to generate significantly more income than the Valley, it would have to be designed primarily for football (ie no running track and with proper ends), it would have to be local ie in Greenwich, the road and public transport links from SE London and Kent would have to be as good if not better than for the Valley and finally the pricing in a significant part of the stadium would have to be in line with current Valley pricing.

  • From what Murray said they were concerned about a West Ham type move, so if the Olympic Stadium doesn't work out, they might go for that stadium instead.
    Hilarious!
  • We already have/had permission for 40,000 capacity.
    Forget the sentimental element of the Valley? After 50 years, nah not me.
    Not saying I'd give up if we moved, but as more and more people are priced out of top live games can't see the attraction of a potential white elephant by the river.
    "Your ground is too big for you" etc
    Cant believe that anyone would say that transport would be worse for 95 per cent of fans - have you ever been to the O2??
    .
    Doesn't everyone moan about the useless Jubilee Line at the O2? How else do you get to the peninsula? 40,000 fans all changing at London Bridge to get the Jubilee?
    Ever heard of the huge car parks at the O2 ?
    Or the 472 and 161 buses, (which incidentally, go past the Valley )

    So all those fans who drive to The Valley & I presume generally park up for free, have to navigate the peninsula and pay the charges in Car Park 2, being £7 for 2-4 hours.

    The other car park are for O2 users and seem to need pre-booking for £17.50.

    So you'd want to see Charlton fans paying more to park on top of what would probably be more expensive ticket prices & concession prices.

    Added to that, with there being no direct trains to the O2 from Kent, you may see an increase in those driving, causing more congestion & pollution.

    Alternatively, all those who go direct to Charlton station from Kent would either need to get off there & get a bus, go to London Bridge & tube it or some other means of getting to near the O2, effectively making it more expensive for Charlton fans to travel.

    It's very prudent to consider the location, for many issues, but overall, (and to be fair the same applies to Millwall), it'd be more beneficial to you to stay where you are or in fact move further out, either to outer Greenwich or into North Kent where a growing number of both our fanbases reside.
  • edited May 2012
    Again, have you ever heard of negotiation ?
    You would expect that Charlton FC would negotiate free(or near free) parking for games - all this sort of stuff would be points to negotiate.
    Most of the other points i have already 'answered'
  • Again, have you ever heard of negotiation ?
    You would expect that Charlton FC would negotiate free(or near free) parking for games - all this sort of stuff would be points to negotiate.
    Most of the other points i have 'answered'
    How can you negotiate free parking when there are limited car parking spaces? & how would the council sign off the environmental impact of additional congestion & pollution if they have no revenue from car parking charges to offset it?



  • edited May 2012
    Again, have you ever heard of negotiation ?
    You would expect that Charlton FC would negotiate free(or near free) parking for games - all this sort of stuff would be points to negotiate.
    Most of the other points i have 'answered'
    How can you negotiate free parking when there are limited car parking spaces? & how would the council sign off the environmental impact of additional congestion & pollution if they have no revenue from car parking charges to offset it?



    Wot, limited parking on saturday afternoon at 3pm? What about the people going to O2 circa 7pm on saturdays? - think about it- ah, sorry, you're a Smallwall fan, so it might be a little tough for you !

  • You are seriously demented if you think the private owners of all the car parks around the o2 could be negotiated into giving up the revenue potential of 40k football supporters. The council have no say in it, all the car parks are privately owned and operated. You could always negotiate with those owners, but what have we got to offer that is worth more than all that parking revenue? You can only negotiate if the goal is a mutually agreeable outcome.
  • edited May 2012
    The car parks are privately owned. They do not have to do any deals on their charges. As there is little (or no) free parking in the area I would imagine that they would not reduce the charges. It if were my company I would refuse to negotiate if I owned the land.
  • edited May 2012
    Watch out, the Luddites have been released !
    I'm sorry, but if you are going to give the argument that we shouldnt move because it might be harder to park, then i feel for you, i really do.
    Dont you all realise that everything is negotiable is business. If noone can park because of exhorbitant money-grabbers, then the council gets involved, or traders around put pressure on because they are losing out. - its ALL negotiable ! There are good,efficient,effective ways around these 'problems'

    Wow, i didnt realise that there were so many Ostriches out there masquerading as Charlton fans - no wonder we fluctuate between the divisions - ye gods.
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  • You talk selling out a 40k ground to all these teams like its a foregone conclusion, bigger ground doesn't always equal better football. Say Leyton Orient moved into the Olympic Stadium, would they suddenly attract 75000 fans and shoot up the leagues? No.

    The idea of a stadium on the peninsula is nice, but it won't happen anytime soon. Do you have any idea how much a rail/dlr/tube extension would cost? Imagine if we were playing a tuesday night game against millwall at the same time there was a major concert in the O2, it would be carnage! Now if we spool back 15 years or so and negotiated a way of us getting the dome on the cheap, then we'll be in business
  • Not sure how we've got our head in the sand when we have planning permission for 40k.
  • Not sure how we've got our head in the sand when we have planning permission for 40k.
    We haven't. The Planning Permission has lapsed and part of the land for the first stage of that development has been sold to a developer.

  • Not sure how we've got our head in the sand when we have planning permission for 40k.
    We haven't. The Planning Permission has lapsed and part of the land for the first stage of that development has been sold to a developer.


    Who is making it tougher to park !!!

  • Portsmouth it's about time you said Solly :-)
    There's no free parking, there's no train service from Kent, you can't walk there & the buses would take longer.
  • edited May 2012
    Watch out, the Luddites have been released !
    I'm sorry, but if you are going to give the argument that we shouldnt move because it might be harder to park, then i feel for you, i really do.
    Dont you all realise that everything is negotiable is business. If noone can park because of exhorbitant money-grabbers, then the council gets involved, or traders around put pressure on because they are losing out. - its ALL negotiable ! There are good,efficient,effective ways around these 'problems'

    Wow, i didnt realise that there were so many Ostriches out there masquerading as Charlton fans - no wonder we fluctuate between the divisions - ye gods.
    I don't know if this was aimed at me, but if NCP will not reduce their parking charges for the commuters that work in Canary Wharf (the wealthiest and most powerful institutions in the UK) or for the O2 what, on earth, makes you think they would agree to reduce their prices for a football club that has, let's face it, been in the third division for the last three years?
  • edited May 2012
    Portsmouth it's about time you said Solly :-)
    There's no free parking, there's no train service from Kent, you can't walk there & the buses would take longer.
    Sigh....hang on, i'll get the blinkers.
  • edited May 2012
    I think you've already got them on, together with your ear plugs.
  • edited May 2012
    Said the Ostrich !
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