When did hooliganism start ?

Covered End

The old newsreel thread v Portsmouth referred to trying to prevent hooliganism in 1969. But when did it really start and why ? I always had a vague impression that it started after the 1966 World Cup.

PS I know Millwall have been at it since way back when, but when did it become a regular occurence elsewhere ?

adamtheaddick

the hooligan boys lambeth 1890 i belive is where it comes from.

Covered End

the hooligan boys lambeth 1890 i belive is where it comes from.

Yes, but I meant when did it start at football matches in England ?

Goonerhater

the word hooligan comes from an Irish family called Hoolihan whio lived in Lambeth

thai malaysia addick

This is what Wikipedia says:

The first alleged recorded instances of football hooliganism in the modern game took place in the 1880s in England,
a period when gangs of supporters would intimidate neighbourhoods, as
well as attack referees and opposing supporters and players. In 1885,
after Preston North End beat Aston Villa
5-0 in a friendly match, the two teams were pelted with stones;
attacked with sticks, punched, kicked and spat at. One Preston player
was beaten so severely that he lost consciousness. Press reports of the
time described the fans as "howling roughs".^[9] The following year, Preston fans fought Queen's Park
fans in a railway station; the first alleged instance of football
hooliganism away from a match. In 1905, several Preston fans were tried
for hooliganism, including a "drunk and disorderly" 70 year old woman,
following their match against Blackburn Rovers.^[9]

Between the two world wars, there were no recorded instance of football hooliganism, (though for example Millwall's
ground was reportedly closed in 1920, 1934 and 1950 after crowd
disturbances) but it started attracting widespread media attention in
the late 1950s due to its re-emergence in Latin America. In the 1955-56 English football season, Liverpool and Everton
fans were involved in a number of incidents. By the 1960s, an average
of 25 hooligan incidents were being reported each year in England.

Covered End

So when did it first become an "issue" at The Valley. I started going in the very late 60's and have had a S/T since 72/73 & I can remember it being common place back then. I think it "peaked" in 1976 with the Spurs game & 1977 the Chelsea game.

March51

I've always thought that it came about following the demise of the mods and rockers feuds. I was a rocker and by 1965 the general teenage revolution in music and fashion was taking off and though we rockers stayed much the same everyone else moved on (and I never caught up). The mods/rockers thing had run its course and the boys looked for other ways to expend their energies. Around that time I worked with a young Chelsea supporter who wore Doc Martins and Ben Shermans and was forever getting slung out of grounds and he took a great pride in being one  'of the shed'. So I reckon '65-'66 would be about right for the modern era.  

SoundAsa£

Goading, handbags at 20 paces and counter insults etc started around 61/62.......actual tear-up's began around 63/64.......mostly by Covered End Mods.

THFC6061

The youngsters who made-up the Spurs team of the 1880s used to play their matches on a painstakingly prepared pitch on Tottenham Marshes.

Quite often, they would have to fight-off the bigger boys and local roughs for the right to use their own pitch.

hawksmoor

Goading, handbags at 20 paces and counter insults etc started around 61/62.......actual tear-up's began around 63/64.......mostly by Covered End Mods.

I'm very interested in original Mods; had no idea there was a Mod hooligan element at The Valley.

mistrollingin

As I recall it, March51 and SoundAs have it about right.

Remember many Mods at the Valley '64 /''65 wearing their full length leather coats. (Think SoundAs may have been one of them).

hawksmoor

I always found it odd how there's a history of football hooligans wanting to looking smart, from Mods tin the Sixties through to the Casuals in the Eighties.

cafcfan

According to my Dad there were regular violence related issues at The Valley in the late 1940s and 50s.  There were often fights on the terraces and it was common for fans to carry knives.  Although in the main these were used to rapidly deflate the inner tube of the old leather footballs when they made it from the pitch onto the terraces.  Footballs were expensive and it was much easier to nick one if it was flat and hidden under your jacket.  Of course a quick patch from a cycle inner tube repair kit, a bit of sowing on the leather seam and a quick pump up and it was as good as new!

Henry Irving

I always found it odd how there's a history of football hooligans wanting to looking smart, from Mods tin the Sixties through to the Casuals in the Eighties.

Have you read "the way we wore"  by Robert Elms.   You'd enjoy it as it's mainly about the clothes young working class men wore.

Also have a book by Paolo Hewitt and Mark Baxter called "the fashion of Football - from Best to Beckham from Mod to label slave"    Photos by Terry O'Neill.  Yours for £5 donation to the CAFC Academy fund.

SoundAsa£

As I recall it, March51 and SoundAs have it about right.

Remember many Mods at the Valley '64 /''65 wearing their full length leather coats. (Think SoundAs may have been one of them).

Yup..........I think that coat ended up some years later being used as something for our Boxer dog to sleep on....like a lot of those Mod clothes I should have kept them as they'd likely be worth as few quid nowadays.

SoundAsa£

According to my Dad there were regular violence related issues at The Valley in the late 1940s and 50s.  There were often fights on the terraces and it was common for fans to carry knives.  Although in the main these were used to rapidly deflate the inner tube of the old leather footballs when they made it from the pitch onto the terraces.  Footballs were expensive and it was much easier to nick one if it was flat and hidden under your jacket.  Of course a quick patch from a cycle inner tube repair kit, a bit of sowing on the leather seam and a quick pump up and it was as good as new!

I am surprised to hear this........respect to your Dad and his knowledge of these things but I suspect that what he refers to was most likely local gangs rather than inter football club hooliganism.

Henry Irving

According to my Dad there were regular violence related issues at The Valley in the late 1940s and 50s.  There were often fights on the terraces and it was common for fans to carry knives.  Although in the main these were used to rapidly deflate the inner tube of the old leather footballs when they made it from the pitch onto the terraces.  Footballs were expensive and it was much easier to nick one if it was flat and hidden under your jacket.  Of course a quick patch from a cycle inner tube repair kit, a bit of sowing on the leather seam and a quick pump up and it was as good as new!

I am surprised to hear this........respect to your Dad and his knowledge of these things but I suspect that what he refers to was most likely local gangs rather than inter football club hooliganism.

Sounds, don't feed the troll

March51

Just to even things up on the fashion/lifestyle front: 'Rockers!' by Johnny Stuart is recommended reading. Must admit, looking at it now, the fashions were a bit limited!

hawksmoor

I always found it odd how there's a history of football hooligans wanting to looking smart, from Mods tin the Sixties through to the Casuals in the Eighties.

Have you read "the way we wore"  by Robert Elms.   You'd enjoy it as it's mainly about the clothes young working class men wore.

Also have a book by Paolo Hewitt and Mark Baxter called "the fashion of Football - from Best to Beckham from Mod to label slave"    Photos by Terry O'Neill.  Yours for £5 donation to the CAFC Academy fund.

I've actually got both those books, both very good reads, especially Elms' book, which I've read about three times. Especially enlightening on the largely unreported clothing cross-over between early Soul Boys and early Punks.

Henry Irving

Just to even things up on the fashion/lifestyle front: 'Rockers!' by Johnny Stuart is recommended reading. Must admit, looking at it now, the fashions were a bit limited!

Also for rockers a book by Bromley Addick and Fans Forum member Ian Wallis

http://www.amazon.co.uk/American-Rock-Roll-Tours-1956-72/dp/0951988867/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1318419293&sr=1-3

hawksmoor

Just to even things up on the fashion/lifestyle front: 'Rockers!' by Johnny Stuart is recommended reading. Must admit, looking at it now, the fashions were a bit limited!

Although I come from the Mod perspective (and I'm still bang into my clothes), I also have that book. Great photos. Bit too much studded leather for me. I thought I'd see a bit more in the way of Belstaffs on those early Ton-Up Boys. And I love my Belstaffs.

March51

Ah, in those days Belstaffs and Barbours were mainly for the sidecar fellas and the likes of the trials/scrambles followers. I did wear one for a while and remember we got held up behind a lorry load of wood shaving type stuff which kept blowing off the top of the trailer. My Belstaff was pretty new and the wax was still sticky. By the time we got past the lorry I looked like the aboninable snowman!

 

hawksmoor

Ah, in those days Belstaffs and Barbours were mainly for the sidecar fellas and the likes of the trials/scrambles followers. I did wear one for a while and remember we got held up behind a lorry load of wood shaving type stuff which kept blowing off the top of the trailer. My Belstaff was pretty new and the wax was still sticky. By the time we got past the lorry I looked like the aboninable snowman!

 

Know what you mean mate. Sorry to take this away from the thread, but I rewaxed my Belstaff Roadmaster a few weeks ago. Took flippin' ages then I realised that the table I was doing it on had some glitter on it from my daughter's craft box. Glitter embedded in the bloody thing now. Not a good look.

I didn't realise Belstaffs and Barbours were more for the sidecar fellas. My old dad had a BSA Gold Star with a sidecar.

By the way, have you seen the prices of Belstaffs these days? The Roadmaster I mentioned cost me £270 in a sale. That jacket's closer to £500 now.

Henry Irving

I always found it odd how there's a history of football hooligans wanting to looking smart, from Mods tin the Sixties through to the Casuals in the Eighties.

You might enjoy some of "sing when you're winning" by Steve Redhead then. Out of print is my guess but via Ebay

Uboat

If only all hooliganism ended up in a discussion about clothes.

cafcfan

According to my Dad there were regular violence related issues at The Valley in the late 1940s and 50s.  There were often fights on the terraces and it was common for fans to carry knives.  Although in the main these were used to rapidly deflate the inner tube of the old leather footballs when they made it from the pitch onto the terraces.  Footballs were expensive and it was much easier to nick one if it was flat and hidden under your jacket.  Of course a quick patch from a cycle inner tube repair kit, a bit of sowing on the leather seam and a quick pump up and it was as good as new!

I am surprised to hear this........respect to your Dad and his knowledge of these things but I suspect that what he refers to was most likely local gangs rather than inter football club hooliganism.

Sounds, don't feed the troll

As you clearly don't believe me, I refer you to Colin Cameron's book Home & Away where there is a brief mention of fighting between rival fans at Highbury on 24th  February 1951.  (Charlton won 2-5).

SoundAsa£

Who said I 'clearly' don't believe you?

However saying it was 'common' for Charlton fans to carry knives is utter bollox and given that I knew a lot of fans from that era.....though they were of course much older than me, I natuarly enough mixed with them. I was known as being something of a tearaway and would often talk with them and mix with them on trains and coaches at away games as well as in The Covered End. I never ever once heard that fans were tooled up as you suggest and certainly not with knives.

cliveg

Calm down Sounds, he's refering to the other poster, Henry Irving, who's sarky comment on your post annoyed him.

The "Quote" facility on here is very poor compared to other sites.

Henry Irving

Who said I 'clearly' don't believe you?

However saying it was 'common' for Charlton fans to carry knives is utter bollox and given that I knew a lot of fans from that era.....though they were of course much older than me, I natuarly enough mixed with them. I was known as being something of a tearaway and would often talk with them and mix with them on trains and coaches at away games as well as in The Covered End. I never ever once heard that fans were tooled up as you suggest and certainly not with knives.

Of course it is bollox which is why I said "don't feed the troll".

cafcfan

I'm sorry I need to be clearer.  "Tooled Up" is not the point.  The point is that most of these guys were going to the match on a saturday afternoon directly (well, via the pub) from work.  Carrying a work knife of some description was second nature especially I suspect if you worked on the river.  But that's not to say you'd use it on another human being.  I suppose it depends on your definition of hooliganism but weirdly Wiki reckons hooliganism in sport started in Ancient Greece and was connected to Chariot racing!

wickford

Was it not noted somewhere that Sam Bartram had his goal set on fire at a Portsmouth game?