I always thought that football hooliganism started In earnest after the 66 World Cup, when it became possible to travel en masse to away matches on football specials or on coaches. Most grounds were 90 per cent terracing with a popular covered end, as at The Valley, with no segregation or away end. The first big example of problems apparently occurred at the West Ham v Man Utd game in May 1967, when thousands of Mancs travelled to see their club clinch the title and were everywhere in the ground, including the North Bank, West Ham's home end. The famous Mile End mob and the Canning Town snipers didn't take too kindly. A couple of the older boys on my estate in Brockley always spoke of Blackburn "Greasers"appearing at Millwall around the same time. Millwall also travelled to Aston Villa in 1968 for an FA Cup match and took on the Holte End. It wasn't long before every club had a mob, whether they were Mods, Skins, etc. and an unofficial league table developed on who was best. Defending or taking Ends became the currency (Charlton at Highbury). From then onwards it was often tit for tat, with a number of rivalries developing away from the traditional local derbies (Leeds v Man Utd for example). My first memory of trouble at Charlton was in 1968 Charlton 5 Fulham 3 (vic Halom?), when the station was closed because of trouble. Glasgow Rangers v Newcastle was another big event in the semi-final of the Inter Cities Fairs Cup in 1968, both legs. Both matches were stopped because of trouble. One of my mates, a Geordie, went to Ibrox and told the story of Rangers fans that were so drunk, they were falling over as they run across no-mans land to attack the Geordies. To think, it took 30 years for the authorities to get hold of it.
I read a really interesting book once called Controversy in Cricket. Apparently there was hooliganism in that sport before football had even been invented (well codified). In the mid1800s organisers of cricket matches would pay people to come into the ground and start rioting. That way the game would have to be abandoned and they could charge people again to come and watch the replay.
A mate of mine (who is a spurs fan) has told me this story on more than one ocassion: During the seventies (i think), We were at home to Millwall and all set for the usual ding-dong. Spurs weren't playing that day so all their louts decided to come to the Valley to bolster our numbers and take on the scum.
Does anyone have any recollections of this happening or do we need to increase his meds?
So when did it first become an "issue" at The Valley. I started going in the very late 60's and have had a S/T since 72/73 & I can remember it being common place back then. I think it "peaked" in 1976 with the Spurs game & 1977 the Chelsea game.
Quite right. having been around for 30 years, the above references stand out. Chelsea setting fire to the Covered End. Millwall games were always severe flashpoints in the 70's, early 80's with often rival gangs joining in (Wham/Spuds). Also Sheff W in the cup; nasty.
So when did it first become an "issue" at The Valley. I started going in the very late 60's and have had a S/T since 72/73 & I can remember it being common place back then. I think it "peaked" in 1976 with the Spurs game & 1977 the Chelsea game.
Quite right. having been around for 30 years, the above references stand out. Chelsea setting fire to the Covered End. Millwall games were always severe flashpoints in the 70's, early 80's with often rival gangs joining in (Wham/Spuds). Also Sheff W in the cup; nasty.
Also; Chelsea away was always nasty (Leaburn zulu chant day paticularly)
Funny watching this again after so many years. Almost looks cute now; 'some dirty northern ponce'. Bless. The whole f troop/treatment thing was totally fabricated for the tv. Milllwall never had the intelligence to be that organised. Still lack the brain cells but minus the velvet jackets and splayed collars.
If you believe that 12 Willmall ran 2000 spurs you must be on crack cocaine??
Only being 4 at the time I wasen't there but speaking to quite a few Charlton that was and they all say the same that Willmall was there but only in presence Charlton that day had every nutter out who was a red and done quite a lot of damage but Spurs also caused havoc all day long!
You still can't beat Spurs in the FA cup replay in 85! That night was the first time up close a personal for me and was not for the faint hearted! Running battles on the east terrace all game and behind the covered end! Remember the big red gates opening beside the Valley club and Spurs waiting throwing bricks and bottles! Charlton charged out the ground and clashed with spurs all down Harvey gardens and Charlton lane.
If you believe that 12 Willmall ran 2000 spurs you must be on crack cocaine??
Only being 4 at the time I wasen't there but speaking to quite a few Charlton that was and they all say the same that Willmall was there but only in presence Charlton that day had every nutter out who was a red and done quite a lot of damage but Spurs also caused havoc all day long!
You still can't beat Spurs in the FA cup replay in 85! That night was the first time up close a personal for me and was not for the faint hearted! Running battles on the east terrace all game and behind the covered end! Remember the big red gates opening beside the Valley club and Spurs waiting throwing bricks and bottles! Charlton charged out the ground and clashed with spurs all down Harvey gardens and Charlton lane.
Mental
i guess if you are terry naylor you wdnt know what side you were on!
My Dad who was born in 1924 and followed the club throughout the 30's 40's and 50's told me that the Valley was a safe place to go - except in so far as some big gates resulted in a crush. What he did say is that the exception was playing Millwall. Although there weren't hooligan gangs, it was very easy to find yourself embroiled in a fight.
I first went in in 68. My impression was that hooliganism was by then becoming part of the regular scene. I think it came out of Mods and Rockers (which came out of the Teddy boy culture of the late 50's) Mods morphed into Skinheads during the middle to late 60's. Its difficult to pick a particular time but it started to be recognised as a football social issue in the mid sixties.
I have never heard of knife carrying as described. Cutthroat razors were the weapon of choice of Teds so maybe there was some knife carrying in the 60's. I don't remember it. I do remember stabbings in fighting between hooligans outside the ground during the 1970's.
I don't remember any obvious violence at the Valley in the '50s, but I know my dad saw it fairly regularly at, or near, Charlton dog track. Usually of a Saturday night.
however for "hooliganism" read "tribalism" ....violence and disorder at sporting events and gatherings goes back to the beginning of time and its not just connected to football ..its just a matter of whos side you are on ...eg the reds or the blues ? the turks or the greeks etc
why football (in many countries and continents) has become /became the outlet for this is the interesting point .Is it because its seen as the working mens game the world over ? is it alcohol? is it fashion? ...i think (And i am no Desmond Morris )that its human nature to want to belong to a group/pack/tribe where we perceive a safety in numbers ....the violence aspect is just a primeval manifestation of this where our own inner instinct prevails over our evolution into a more civilised society ,
another point for example isnt it much more enjoyable/comforting to turn on the box see a game as a neutral where you have no interest but end up wanting one team or the other to win
Millsmall dined out off this inacurate story for several years.
The truth of the matter was that a small group of them infiltrated the Covered End......there were some Spuds in there......but nothing like the 2,000 they claim of course as most of the away fans were on the South Terrace.
There was total confusion because us Addicks didn't know who was who and just what was going off.
Had they have know Millsmall were in there I have no doubt what-so-ever that Covered End lads would have got involved....instead Millsmall doctored the evidence, basked in the glory and took great pleasure in the inacuracy of the folklore they had spun.
There was no aggro between The Spuds and us at all.
Comments
The first big example of problems apparently occurred at the West Ham v Man Utd game in May 1967, when thousands of Mancs travelled to see their club clinch the title and were everywhere in the ground, including the North Bank, West Ham's home end. The famous Mile End mob and the Canning Town snipers didn't take too kindly.
A couple of the older boys on my estate in Brockley always spoke of Blackburn "Greasers"appearing at Millwall around the same time. Millwall also travelled to Aston Villa in 1968 for an FA Cup match and took on the Holte End.
It wasn't long before every club had a mob, whether they were Mods, Skins, etc. and an unofficial league table developed on who was best. Defending or taking Ends became the currency (Charlton at Highbury). From then onwards it was often tit for tat, with a number of rivalries developing away from the traditional local derbies (Leeds v Man Utd for example).
My first memory of trouble at Charlton was in 1968 Charlton 5 Fulham 3 (vic Halom?), when the station was closed because of trouble.
Glasgow Rangers v Newcastle was another big event in the semi-final of the Inter Cities Fairs Cup in 1968, both legs. Both matches were stopped because of trouble. One of my mates, a Geordie, went to Ibrox and told the story of Rangers fans that were so drunk, they were falling over as they run across no-mans land to attack the Geordies.
To think, it took 30 years for the authorities to get hold of it.
Does anyone have any recollections of this happening or do we need to increase his meds?
Before my time but you sure your not thinking off the game V Spurs when a small mob of Millwall turned up ? And it was part of the Panorama Doc.
Quite right. having been around for 30 years, the above references stand out. Chelsea setting fire to the Covered End. Millwall games were always severe flashpoints in the 70's, early 80's with often rival gangs joining in (Wham/Spuds). Also Sheff W in the cup; nasty.
Funny watching this again after so many years. Almost looks cute now; 'some dirty northern ponce'. Bless. The whole f troop/treatment thing was totally fabricated for the tv. Milllwall never had the intelligence to be that organised. Still lack the brain cells but minus the velvet jackets and splayed collars.
If you believe that 12 Willmall ran 2000 spurs you must be on crack cocaine??
Only being 4 at the time I wasen't there but speaking to quite a few Charlton that was and they all say the same that Willmall was there but only in presence Charlton that day had every nutter out who was a red and done quite a lot of damage but Spurs also caused havoc all day long!
You still can't beat Spurs in the FA cup replay in 85! That night was the first time up close a personal for me and was not for the faint hearted! Running battles on the east terrace all game and behind the covered end! Remember the big red gates opening beside the Valley club and Spurs waiting throwing bricks and bottles! Charlton charged out the ground and clashed with spurs all down Harvey gardens and Charlton lane.
Mental
Make them listen to Shakin Stevens records all day long as punishment
however for "hooliganism" read "tribalism" ....violence and disorder at sporting events and gatherings goes back to the beginning of time and its not just connected to football ..its just a matter of whos side you are on ...eg the reds or the blues ? the turks or the greeks etc
why football (in many countries and continents) has become /became the outlet for this is the interesting point .Is it because its seen as the working mens game the world over ? is it alcohol? is it fashion? ...i think (And i am no Desmond Morris )that its human nature to want to belong to a group/pack/tribe where we perceive a safety in numbers ....the violence aspect is just a primeval manifestation of this where our own inner instinct prevails over our evolution into a more civilised society ,
another point for example isnt it much more enjoyable/comforting to turn on the box see a game as a neutral where you have no interest but end up wanting one team or the other to win
Millsmall dined out off this inacurate story for several years.
The truth of the matter was that a small group of them infiltrated the Covered End......there were some Spuds in there......but nothing like the 2,000 they claim of course as most of the away fans were on the South Terrace.
There was total confusion because us Addicks didn't know who was who and just what was going off.
Had they have know Millsmall were in there I have no doubt what-so-ever that Covered End lads would have got involved....instead Millsmall doctored the evidence, basked in the glory and took great pleasure in the inacuracy of the folklore they had spun.
There was no aggro between The Spuds and us at all.