So after DC vetoed the new EU treaty where does it leave us, are we very vunerable ? Discuss but can we leave the tory this, labour that away and just views on the implications.
The UK is "as isolated as somebody who refused to join the Titanic just before it sailed" following treaty veto, says Terry Smith of the money brokerage firm, Tullett Prebon on BBC Radio 4.
Maybe this is a positive first step, it is about time we stood up to them and became the masters of our own destiny again. I believe a complete withdrawal would in the long term be good for us as a Nation and a chance to remove some of the crap we have taken on board.
Interesting that France and Germany are using the current crisis as impetus towards an even tighter union and eventually a European 'superpower' along the lines of the USA. No prizes for guessing which two countries would be in the driving seat of such a state.
I think DC made the right call. I also wonder how any referenda in EU countries would go if this were put to the vote.
if they offered us nothing, why would we agree, stupid really on their part
if they try and scew the city after this I can see us going to referendum, as it will no longer be in our interests to be in it, also a bit stupid on their part although perhaps they want us out
So all 27 countries had to vote and agree ... but they didn't get the decision they wanted, so answer is to dump four of the countries and the remaining 23 make a new 'unanimous' decision.
The UK is "as isolated as somebody who refused to join the Titanic just before it sailed" following treaty veto, says Terry Smith of the money brokerage firm, Tullett Prebon on BBC Radio 4.
We agree to everything and the Euro mob get nice and close we are on the outside. We dont agree and the mess that is the Euro goes on. Second biggest net contributer to the EU yet when its finally agreed re the new Euro mob we will have even less say.
Cameron should take the easier route and give us what he and Brown promised us, a vote on Europe. If we vote yes then its all gravy if we vote no-- its not his fault that we voted no he is then just following the peoples choice.
We are in the worst possible place to be, still paying far to much (in many ways) and on the outside of a non democratic more fedral EU with less and less say.
So all 27 countries had to vote and agree ... but they didn't get the decision they wanted, so answer is to dump four of the countries and the remaining 23 make a new 'unanimous' decision.
Yup, this is built on a firm foundation lol
as I read it the new rules are about the Euro zone members - if you are going to keep the Euro you undoubtedly need tighter rules governing it - the way the union is set up they wanted to do it Europe wide so they could use the existing institutions etc, and can't so will have to use intergovernmental accords instead for now.
we are already isolated us from the euro grouping anyway, however a new treaty and institutions will have emerge, so in some senses the euro group is moving onwards
I think a lot of sceptics would be happy about being in the second tier (as we always have been even arguably long long before the Euro)
So after DC vetoed the new EU treaty where does it leave us, are we very vunerable ? Discuss but can we leave the tory this, labour that away and just views on the implications.
as I read it the new rules are about the Euro zone members - if you are going to keep the Euro you undoubtedly need tighter rules governing it - the way the union is set up they wanted to do it Europe wide so they could use the existing institutions etc, and can't so will have to use intergovernmental accords instead for now.
I believe that is correct ... but it sets up a union within a union which is bound to run into all sorts of judicial problems
agreed, but this process is already well underway with the Euro, all this does is formalise it more with some niggles as you say, I think the real question is whether we will remain part of the EU as a result of all this or whether there will be periperhal states like EFTA and one central bloc.
what worries some is that this will become a superstate and we will be marginalised, however I can't see that truly happening (more than it is now) for a very long time if at all given the national differences among the members. While we are willing to be huge contributors why would they penalise us, and if they do we take our money and clear off leaving them right up the swanny.
So one side we don't want to be a member (well some don't) on the other hand some are worried about the old balance of power question which has dominated British foreign policy since its inception.
Thats it Saga--- the sceptics will say yes and the EU lovers will say no.
The point though should also be could the EU survive if the UK pulled out and they didnt have our money ? thats one hell of a hit money wise and who could step up to fill the gap ? Romainia? Bulgaria? Cyprus? ROI ? Spain? etc etc not even France and maybe not even Germany could do it.
We dont manufacture much but maybe we should look more and more to India and China and less to an EU.
its a shame as I think its all a bit short sighted
now and increasingly in the future we need to compete against huge trading blocs with their own vast internal markets, the US, China, India. I think if we had been part of the Euro and perhaps if it had been implemented more thoroughly - which is what they are trying to do now we assume - we could be well down this route and doing very well for it. Other federal entities seem to manage with a single currency, and have widely diverging local economies and an array of languages spoken, albeit not overnight, and with the odd civil war here and there.
National sovereignty is increasinly a myth in a global economy with free markets, and the huge multinational companies that do not see national borders, the only thing we control is our military and even that is subject to treaties etc and has been steadily 'bankrupting' us over the years.
60% of all our trade is with the EU. Make no mistake we need them as much as they need us. We can't fall back on our commonwealth for trade any more and we have never exported significantly to the USA which I suspect will over the coming years will revert to its isolationist default position. Things have changed and will never be the same. What we do will reverberate for many years.
Only in the perverse world of Europolitics can someone who has actually no part of the problem (the Eurozone) be blamed for the failure of that collective to resolve its problems.
The requested financial services exemption was right. A unilateral imposition of a transaction tax by the EU would by EU estimates cost 500k jobs across Europe. Guess who takes the hardest hit.
This is about who pays the price for the Eurozone failure. Germany does not want to pay (and has a national pysche issue with inflationary economics). We can all sympathize with that but the Germans are calling the shots just ask Eire who runs their economy.
The French economy is in a big hole (French banks are also exposed to any Greek default) and needs someone (Germany) to bail it out. Sarkosy with a French election coming soon is desperate to be seen as a hero in all this. Cameron has just rained on his parade.
What does all that mean for the UK. Well there will be the usual knee jerk reaction and anti British sentiment for a while. In truth there are bigger fizzures in the whole construct of the new "economic compact" It is all very well agreeing a new bail out fund of 500bn Euros but where does it come from and who is going to carry the risk?
It is a banking crisis and requires a banking solution (if there is one) Merkel and Sarlosy as with the concept of the Eurozone are trying to solve the crisis with a political solution. Some people never learn.
Will there be renewed anti British sentiment? Of course when it all goes "pear shaped" they can paint the UK as the villain but when it goes pearshaped I am not sure it will matter very much everybody will be scrambling for their own national lifeboats anyway.
Doesn't it make you proud to be a part of the human race?
Them - Closer European Union nearer to a United States of Europe
Us - Closer to Ireland (Sunday Times was suggesting one re-united country) and Scandinavians.
But fly in the ointment is where does that leave the City of London as the main financial centre for Europe?
Frankfurt has been trying for a couple of decades to become the predominant financial centre in Europe. For all sorts of reasons they have failed ... and will continue to do so against London.
Hence, if they can't become the financial centre, let's introduce a new financial penalty / tax which will... surprise surprise ... hit the London financial centre more than any other but will raise revenue for the rest of Europe.
A back-door approach to reduce the effectiveness of London ... and rightfully it has been recognised and vetoed.
If HK and NY also introduced such a tax, fair enough. But we will reduce our competitiveness if London / Europe takes this alone
I think its a positive step, we are in a huge recession and I would rather see us use our money to help us, not greece, spain etc. If we were to pull out of the EU, surely that means we can focus on ourselves, and we wouldnt have to put up with all the restraints on trade and some of the more ridiculous EU laws?
SHG 60% of what ? manufacturing only accounts for less than 20% of GDP (i think its about 13 %).
Can they survive without the UKs money ? maybe in the long term possibly--in the next 5 years no chance---if we pull out in the next five years the EU could not survive.
Could the UK survive outside the EU ? have my doubts. I think there would be a huge threat to the City and we could only counter this be LESS regulation ----no thanks ! As Henry said we would need a "trading block"- who and how ? cant see one really.
The answer is GIVE US THE VOTE. Then lets hope its a no . The threat of us not being in the EU will scare the crap out of the Mer-Kosi love in and although outside of the Euro we have a MANDATE to leave------ a strong position.
Agree with what Razil says about the Euro not being implemented thoroughly enough. If you are going to have a single currency, then you need to have equality throughout the Eurozone in taxation etc. Countries like Portugal need to be lead by the nose, because they just waste and mispend the funds they are given by the EU, hence the crap they are in now.
who says if we 'leave' we lose the trade? Does the US and China not trade with the EU, as long as we don't have trade barriers up etc? Then there is/was EFTA?
Comments
The UK is "as isolated as somebody who refused to join the Titanic just before it sailed" following treaty veto, says Terry Smith of the money brokerage firm, Tullett Prebon on BBC Radio 4.
I agree with this. He is my boss too.
I think DC made the right call. I also wonder how any referenda in EU countries would go if this were put to the vote.
if they offered us nothing, why would we agree, stupid really on their part
if they try and scew the city after this I can see us going to referendum, as it will no longer be in our interests to be in it, also a bit stupid on their part although perhaps they want us out
So all 27 countries had to vote and agree ... but they didn't get the decision they wanted, so answer is to dump four of the countries and the remaining 23 make a new 'unanimous' decision.
Yup, this is built on a firm foundation lol
excellent comment ... also agree
as I read it the new rules are about the Euro zone members - if you are going to keep the Euro you undoubtedly need tighter rules governing it - the way the union is set up they wanted to do it Europe wide so they could use the existing institutions etc, and can't so will have to use intergovernmental accords instead for now.
we are already isolated us from the euro grouping anyway, however a new treaty and institutions will have emerge, so in some senses the euro group is moving onwards
I think a lot of sceptics would be happy about being in the second tier (as we always have been even arguably long long before the Euro)
as I read it the new rules are about the Euro zone members - if you are going to keep the Euro you undoubtedly need tighter rules governing it - the way the union is set up they wanted to do it Europe wide so they could use the existing institutions etc, and can't so will have to use intergovernmental accords instead for now.
I believe that is correct ... but it sets up a union within a union which is bound to run into all sorts of judicial problems
You only have to look at the Eurovision Song Contest to realise that nobody likes us - we're the Millwall of the European Union.
Having said that, I'm very worried about wat has just happened - DC has just made us even more unpopular - do we care? Should we care?
Can we survive as a nation outside of the EU? I don't know the answers, but I've sure got a lot of questions!
I don't have the answers but I'd be just as concerned ... if not more so ... about being one of the nations inside the EU trying to survive.
agreed, but this process is already well underway with the Euro, all this does is formalise it more with some niggles as you say, I think the real question is whether we will remain part of the EU as a result of all this or whether there will be periperhal states like EFTA and one central bloc.
what worries some is that this will become a superstate and we will be marginalised, however I can't see that truly happening (more than it is now) for a very long time if at all given the national differences among the members. While we are willing to be huge contributors why would they penalise us, and if they do we take our money and clear off leaving them right up the swanny.
So one side we don't want to be a member (well some don't) on the other hand some are worried about the old balance of power question which has dominated British foreign policy since its inception.
interesting times
This
Us - Closer to Ireland (Sunday Times was suggesting one re-united country) and Scandinavians.
But fly in the ointment is where does that leave the City of London as the main financial centre for Europe?
its a shame as I think its all a bit short sighted
now and increasingly in the future we need to compete against huge trading blocs with their own vast internal markets, the US, China, India. I think if we had been part of the Euro and perhaps if it had been implemented more thoroughly - which is what they are trying to do now we assume - we could be well down this route and doing very well for it. Other federal entities seem to manage with a single currency, and have widely diverging local economies and an array of languages spoken, albeit not overnight, and with the odd civil war here and there.
National sovereignty is increasinly a myth in a global economy with free markets, and the huge multinational companies that do not see national borders, the only thing we control is our military and even that is subject to treaties etc and has been steadily 'bankrupting' us over the years.
But there you are
Only in the perverse world of Europolitics can someone who has actually no part of the problem (the Eurozone) be blamed for the failure of that collective to resolve its problems.
The requested financial services exemption was right. A unilateral imposition of a transaction tax by the EU would by EU estimates cost 500k jobs across Europe. Guess who takes the hardest hit.
This is about who pays the price for the Eurozone failure. Germany does not want to pay (and has a national pysche issue with inflationary economics). We can all sympathize with that but the Germans are calling the shots just ask Eire who runs their economy.
The French economy is in a big hole (French banks are also exposed to any Greek default) and needs someone (Germany) to bail it out. Sarkosy with a French election coming soon is desperate to be seen as a hero in all this. Cameron has just rained on his parade.
What does all that mean for the UK. Well there will be the usual knee jerk reaction and anti British sentiment for a while. In truth there are bigger fizzures in the whole construct of the new "economic compact" It is all very well agreeing a new bail out fund of 500bn Euros but where does it come from and who is going to carry the risk?
It is a banking crisis and requires a banking solution (if there is one) Merkel and Sarlosy as with the concept of the Eurozone are trying to solve the crisis with a political solution. Some people never learn.
Will there be renewed anti British sentiment? Of course when it all goes "pear shaped" they can paint the UK as the villain but when it goes pearshaped I am not sure it will matter very much everybody will be scrambling for their own national lifeboats anyway.
Doesn't it make you proud to be a part of the human race?
Grapevine49
Frankfurt has been trying for a couple of decades to become the predominant financial centre in Europe. For all sorts of reasons they have failed ... and will continue to do so against London.
Hence, if they can't become the financial centre, let's introduce a new financial penalty / tax which will... surprise surprise ... hit the London financial centre more than any other but will raise revenue for the rest of Europe.
A back-door approach to reduce the effectiveness of London ... and rightfully it has been recognised and vetoed.
If HK and NY also introduced such a tax, fair enough. But we will reduce our competitiveness if London / Europe takes this alone
Agree with what Razil says about the Euro not being implemented thoroughly enough. If you are going to have a single currency, then you need to have equality throughout the Eurozone in taxation etc. Countries like Portugal need to be lead by the nose, because they just waste and mispend the funds they are given by the EU, hence the crap they are in now.