Not only does no-one actually understand the problem, no-one has the slightest idea how to get us all out of the doo doo. But don't worry, someone, somewhere will make a pile. It just won't be you or me.
The politicians of both sides have promised and promised this. Have an open, honest, fair and truthful debate(my emphasis) from all sides then ask the people
Yeah, that's the problem - remember the AV debate? Most of the discussion was centred about a bunch of made up figures that didn't add up anyway, rather than the pros and cons of changing the system.
Like I said, no-one understands this. Why is it people are so determined to have a referendum on something so complex? It's like quantum mechanics - if you think you understand it, you don't.
A referendum would be unbearable - can you imagine some of the headlines?
"That's not the way it works - the banks etc bundle up debt according to risk - so let's say relatively safe 25 year mortages at a 5% fixed rate with 10% deposits will be sold in one bundle. Dodgier debt - say 25 year mortgage at floating interest rates with 0% deposit is sold in an entirely separate bundle, they aren't, or at least shouldn't be mixed together."
No wish to argue with you, mate, as we are on the same side generally, and this is not my professional field, but I've understood that the American banks did exactly that - mixed them up deliberately, AAA+ and junk status, and sold them as one AAA package. Explained admirably in the BBC docu. "The Crisis"
But the money they lent wasn't just burnt. It wasn't just gambled on the 2.30 at Haydock Park.
It purchased an asset. The banks still own that asset - not at the same value they lent money on it, but nonetheless there is still an asset with some value.
bottom line is we have now become completely dependent on prostituting ourselves to the bankers from around the world. We are a bit like Bangkok or Amsterdam in that we attract business due to the laxity of the laws and if we actually decide that maybe some of it is just not right we will no longer be in a position to reverse it. This was a big crossroads and unfortunately we have turned right and not left. The Tories have sucked up to the city and we are now in a greed is good culture completely. Ten years time we'll be able to see what the benefits of being in Europe were and at least it will shut the bores up who keep regurgitating all this ' political correctness gone mad' 'red tape' ' beaurocracy' 'immigration' blaa blaa. All that shite that they don't really understand. We will now see just how strong we are - watch us cling to America even more now and all that bunch who were moaning about Brussels and europe will start moaning about the American culture again. Ultimately, none of us know what the hell is going on or how it all works but what i'm pretty sure of is that there is something very wrong about what goes on in the 'city' but it seems that we have bugger all else left.
How comes you're not Prime Minister then Dan as you can see what quite obviously our Government can't see.
Who says that 'clinging to America' is worse for the UK than 'clinging to Germany'?
If you don't know what the hell is going on or how it works how do you know the answer?
I'm being serious here - is what you're saying fact or opinion? Because all I seem to get is opinions and they all seem to be at odds with one another.
I don't think any British savers (other than some rare cases of people with deposits in offshore accounts with subsidiaries of Icelandic banks) lost a penny of their deposits PA.
As for today, the fact remains that the required big bazooka has not been produced. The Germans remain resolute in opposition to the ECB printing money (the only credible long term solution to this crisis, like it or not).
Given that multiple credit downgrades of Eurozone members (possibly including France) are highly likley in the near future and that, as a consequence, a key component of the debt-resolution plan (the EFSF) may be fatally holed, a Euro200bn commitment to the IMF is nowhere near enough to bridge the gap, even with accompanying contributions from G20 countries.
Moreover, aside from the fact that the fiscal compact agreed (in principle) today, in fact an austerity compact, gives rise to many contentious issues about the role of the European Parliament and other EU institutions, expect at least some of the 9 non-Eurozone members that boarded the good ship "Anshluss" today to make for the lifeboats as soon as they are confronted with the task of putting the deal in all its fine print to their respective parliaments.
Some excellent explanations above of Collateralised Debt Obligations (CDO's) or financial weapons of mass destruction as Warren Buffet called them. Derivatives such as these, and there are many others, were designed by greedy bankers eager to increase their huge bonuses. What is required, not just in England but around the globe is action to discourage this greed. A financial transaction tax would have been a good start. Personally I'd also like to see a minimum holding period of at least 1 day imposed on shares, seeing as most shares these days are held for less than a few seconds. The relience on the financial sector should be reduced rather than encouraged by Cameron's move yesterday. I'd like to see the whole industry world wide cut in half at least, the world would be a far better place for it!
Inside Job was shown on BBC2 on Wednesday - If you don't understand the cause of the financial crisis you should have watched it.
The country has to start building new alliegiencies now as being isolated isn't a good thing. There are new markets to chase but I would have thought Europe will be going after them too and be a more attractive prospect. Maybe if we could start getting growth but this government never has understood this as the big lever that you have to balance with austerity - a point made by those that understand its importance before everything went so clearly tits up.
I am a euro sceptic in the sense that it is a project that has gone too far and become a monster driven by Germany and France but a realist to realise that there was sod all we could do about it. And a realist understands when you are between a rock and a hard place. That is where Cameron was on Thursday but he took the wrong option for Britain for an easier life at home. Not that the right option was particularly good, it was merely better long term.
The coalition wont last past next year - the Liberals are turning on their leader who to be fair is going to destroy their party (He will probably eventually join the conservatives). It needs Vince Cable to walk out of government now in disgust to speed up the inevitable and possibly save his party.
The next step is Europe seeing this as a freedom to work against us. Looks to me to be the first step towards us leaving. Whilst I am against what Europe has become- it should always have been just a common market - I do think this will damage us and sometimes you have to take the least worse of two options.
Isn't the 'city' tax .005 % of profits - but the city are major funders of the Tories and they are the party who have the most Anti Europeans in their midst. The Lib Dems are the most pro Europe party in the UK and you can liken this to Darth Vader and the Emporer on the Death Star. With the PR vote and this I do think the coalition is also in danger in the short to medium term now.
Wouldn't worry about it the lib dems have sold out for a seat at the table. Come the next election and they will be no more.
The only 'party' talking about leaving the EU is UKIP and somehow I can't see too many voting for them (they only got 3% of the vote in 2010). Even Cameron made it clear in his speech at the Lord Mayor's banquet (no austerity there!!) that "Leaving the EU is not in our national interest." Labour are also not in favour of leaving. Geographically we are part of Europe and if anyone thinks the Septics are coming to rescue little old Britain then their glasses are decidedly rose-tinted. They are looking to China and India as the expanding powerful economies. The idea that Cameron has somehow preserved 'the City' and that therefore we will be in a strong fiscal situation is risible. The financial markets will move wherever it suits them. If at any stage it suits them to move to Hamburg or somewhere else, that is what will happen. On radio 4 this morning Lord Heseltine in commenting on Cameron's decision said we may not see the impact immediately but we will do so in 10 years time. There are 27 countries in the EU. 26 came to an agreement leaving the UK on the outside. We shall have to wait and see what the impact is (and I suspect it will be sooner than 10 years) and it may well be the case that a number of the 26 will fall by the wayside but on balance I would rather be on the big ship than in a small rowing boat (nautical analogies being flavour of the month in the papers.) Whatever stance anyone here takes there is one thing on which we can all agree - these are worrying times (except down at the Valley.)
I'm very very grateful to the 'folk who know'. What I don't get is why Gordon Brown is so derided. I understand that debts need to be repaid, and that getting into so much debt was a bad thing, but now it can only be done by growth and that requires fiscal stimulus. I'm getting so weary of the right wing press constantly setting the political agenda and basically deciding which political party governs Britain. They're shutting out genuine political debate. I want to understand what's happening and it seems that darker forces are determined to prevent that.
30 years ago the UK could have had a good chance of being able to stand alone. Now, sadly I think it has little chance of prospering. It's sense of national pride and self confidence has been greatly eroded and it has become far to reliant on it's financial industry. It's people have become too reliant on the welfare state and it produces very little. People are no longer willing to wait around for ever for things to improve and will look to move abroad to improve their lifestyle instead. Heaven forbid we were to get involved in another major conflict, I wonder how many would be willing to die for their country these day's, very few I should imagine.
There are only 3 ways forward and we should be asked to vote on them---end of.
1) Stay out of the Euro but be part of the EU
2) Join the EURO and play a full part.
3) Leave the EU
Last night on Newsnight some Lib/Dem let a very large cat out ofthe bag. If you could follow what he was saying as he was frothing at the mouth about Tories. He said (3 times) " a vote on the EU was NOT part of the Lib/Com pact and wont happen" ---------------- so thats why Cameron said no to a vote. It has NOTHING to do with EU treaties etc it was AGREED as part of the Lib/Con pact. He talked utter utter bolox tho as he also said Cameron saying no will costs millions and MIllions of jobs in the UK total kak. The Tory (no idea who) asked "what would a Labour PM have done? and the Lib Dem guy was lost for words and then said "probably the same thing"
of the 3 above:
1) no real dramas we just have a tiny say whilst being the second biggest payers into the EU
2) Not that attached to the £ but having the EU banks set out tax and budgets---------i mean they do such a great job in the common ag policy and the Euro !
3) Although we would have £20 billion a year to play with (not paying the EU) how can the UK survive on its own ?
We the people should have the choice--- on one of those level playing fields that the politicos always bang on about------ what ever that choice is and what ever happens after ---- it was OUR choice.
bottom line is we have now become completely dependent on prostituting ourselves to the bankers from around the world. We are a bit like Bangkok or Amsterdam in that we attract business due to the laxity of the laws and if we actually decide that maybe some of it is just not right we will no longer be in a position to reverse it. This was a big crossroads and unfortunately we have turned right and not left. The Tories have sucked up to the city and we are now in a greed is good culture completely. Ten years time we'll be able to see what the benefits of being in Europe were and at least it will shut the bores up who keep regurgitating all this ' political correctness gone mad' 'red tape' ' beaurocracy' 'immigration' blaa blaa. All that shite that they don't really understand. We will now see just how strong we are - watch us cling to America even more now and all that bunch who were moaning about Brussels and europe will start moaning about the American culture again. Ultimately, none of us know what the hell is going on or how it all works but what i'm pretty sure of is that there is something very wrong about what goes on in the 'city' but it seems that we have bugger all else left.
" a vote on the EU was NOT part of the Lib/Com pact and wont happen" ---------------- so thats why Cameron said no to a vote. It has NOTHING to do with EU treaties etc it was AGREED as part of the Lib/Con pact. He talked utter utter bolox tho as he also said Cameron saying no will costs millions and MIllions of jobs in the UK total kak. ..............
I'd take issue with this costing millions of jobs but he is potentially right in principle. Cameron's veto will keep the eurosceptics and the Tory press onside, it also benefits the city who are inline to be on the receiving end of regulation in the near future but that's another debate. What does it do though for the non-financial sector? I can see it being harder for British manufacturing to sell to the EU, cheap sterling might make it easier for them, but that can change, otherwise I can see this costing jobs.
The veto might not be so bad if Cameron/Osborne have a credible growth strategy for the UK, so far we've tried austerity and that hasn't/isn't working, we need to invest and grow and that means a monetary policy which supports manufacturing and anything which is value added. Just as we are finally getting round as a nation to addressing that issue Cameron is making potentially harder to export to Europe which is our largest export market. Isolationism has never worked as an economic policy and a recession is bad time to start experimenting with it.
Anyone thinking that the US is going to save us in some way - dream on - the "special relationship" is something that exists only in the minds of Atlanticists.
At least we have a few more years of North Sea oil revenues left.
BFR is right. Austerity is not a policy for growth and has a far greater negative impact on the have-nots (the overwhelming majority of the population). Those who 'have' can ride out the storm and even make profits from it but the threads on CL recounting Lifers' search for work shows that the have-nots have little chance of improvement in the current fiscal climate. The one thing I have in common with Boris Johnson is the idea of building an airport in the Thames. It would create work and provide us with the additional landing slots which I understand are badly neded after Heathrow's extra runway application was abandoned. Will it work? I have no idea but doing feck all other than more austerity for the next decade surely isn't the answer. I think a problem for Goonerhater's three options is, as I mentioned in an earlier post, other than UKIP none of the others want to exit the EU so that rules out any referendum. Who would speak in favour of exit other than UKIP? There may be Eurosceptics in both Tory and Labour parties but the idea of Bill Cash and Denis (the beast of Bolsover) Skinner sharing a platform is surely too far fetched. Like GH I have no attachment to a coin which has the word 'pound' on it. For those who feel it important, the Queen's bonce could be on a euro and although the EU has not shown itself adept at tax and budgeting, neither have our politicians. Hiding spending through off balance sheet PFI deals which both parties have done hardly fills me with pride. Can we survive on our own? I doubt it but that is what Cameron has committed us to.
And to make matters worse, we dropped 2 points in Poland today.
We've always imported far more from the EU than we've exported to them.
That is a fact. We have a massive trade deficit with the Common Market, EEC, EC, EU since we signed up nearly 40 years ago now.
However the fact is Cameron has done nothing other than pull a clever con trick to give a few Tory backbenchers an excuse to play with themselves.
Once the next "whose got the biggest tits vote" comes on the telly Cameron will quietly revert to his normal supine self and give the EU anything it asks for and the press and BBC will ignore it by and large as they normally do.
Did anyone hear Danny Alexander (LibDem chief secretary to the Treasury) on Today? When Humphreys pointed out that Cameron has bought time and asked if this meant a split in the coalition he denied it and spluttered that they were doing great things, such as climate control. When Nick Robinson came on immediately afterwards he was laughing at this inept performance. We have up to three and a half years until the next election. When the Tory Eurosceptics come back to Cameron with more demands, the divide will grow. We are now isolated from the rest of Europe and the Yanks couldn't give a monkey's about us (Obama declined to confirm that there is any sort of special relationship between us.) How have we ended up in the worst of all possible positions?
Agree with Legal - the Yanks have got their own problems and it looks like they'll be looking inward. The "Special Relationship" was always a lot more "Special" to us than it was to them.
Had Cameron voted yes they would have called him a sell out be that the Tory right or Labour. He votes no he gets blasted .
Strange thing in one of the sundays (The People ?) survey said he was right and another said if there was a vote now the majority (54%) would vote for leaving the EU. Now thats not a very high number and once the media and the whole Pro EU lobby got working that would be easy to turn round. The funny thing is the Editorial was all about why there is NO need for a vote and why there shouldnt be one !
Stunning how the Left take the piss out of the "special relationship" and hate anything to do with the Yanks yet all in the flash its all doom and gloom because it has gone !!
Comments
Like I said, no-one understands this. Why is it people are so determined to have a referendum on something so complex? It's like quantum mechanics - if you think you understand it, you don't.
A referendum would be unbearable - can you imagine some of the headlines?
But the money they lent wasn't just burnt. It wasn't just gambled on the 2.30 at Haydock Park.
It purchased an asset. The banks still own that asset - not at the same value they lent money on it, but nonetheless there is still an asset with some value.
How comes you're not Prime Minister then Dan as you can see what quite obviously our Government can't see.
Who says that 'clinging to America' is worse for the UK than 'clinging to Germany'?
If you don't know what the hell is going on or how it works how do you know the answer?
I'm being serious here - is what you're saying fact or opinion? Because all I seem to get is opinions and they all seem to be at odds with one another.
What is 40 + 40 x 0 + 1?
I don't think any British savers (other than some rare cases of people with deposits in offshore accounts with subsidiaries of Icelandic banks) lost a penny of their deposits PA.
As for today, the fact remains that the required big bazooka has not been produced. The Germans remain resolute in opposition to the ECB printing money (the only credible long term solution to this crisis, like it or not).
Given that multiple credit downgrades of Eurozone members (possibly including France) are highly likley in the near future and that, as a consequence, a key component of the debt-resolution plan (the EFSF) may be fatally holed, a Euro200bn commitment to the IMF is nowhere near enough to bridge the gap, even with accompanying contributions from G20 countries.
Moreover, aside from the fact that the fiscal compact agreed (in principle) today, in fact an austerity compact, gives rise to many contentious issues about the role of the European Parliament and other EU institutions, expect at least some of the 9 non-Eurozone members that boarded the good ship "Anshluss" today to make for the lifeboats as soon as they are confronted with the task of putting the deal in all its fine print to their respective parliaments.
The country has to start building new alliegiencies now as being isolated isn't a good thing. There are new markets to chase but I would have thought Europe will be going after them too and be a more attractive prospect. Maybe if we could start getting growth but this government never has understood this as the big lever that you have to balance with austerity - a point made by those that understand its importance before everything went so clearly tits up.
I am a euro sceptic in the sense that it is a project that has gone too far and become a monster driven by Germany and France but a realist to realise that there was sod all we could do about it. And a realist understands when you are between a rock and a hard place. That is where Cameron was on Thursday but he took the wrong option for Britain for an easier life at home. Not that the right option was particularly good, it was merely better long term.
The coalition wont last past next year - the Liberals are turning on their leader who to be fair is going to destroy their party (He will probably eventually join the conservatives). It needs Vince Cable to walk out of government now in disgust to speed up the inevitable and possibly save his party.
Enjoyed reading this.....good debating.
The idea that Cameron has somehow preserved 'the City' and that therefore we will be in a strong fiscal situation is risible. The financial markets will move wherever it suits them. If at any stage it suits them to move to Hamburg or somewhere else, that is what will happen. On radio 4 this morning Lord Heseltine in commenting on Cameron's decision said we may not see the impact immediately but we will do so in 10 years time.
There are 27 countries in the EU. 26 came to an agreement leaving the UK on the outside. We shall have to wait and see what the impact is (and I suspect it will be sooner than 10 years) and it may well be the case that a number of the 26 will fall by the wayside but on balance I would rather be on the big ship than in a small rowing boat (nautical analogies being flavour of the month in the papers.)
Whatever stance anyone here takes there is one thing on which we can all agree - these are worrying times (except down at the Valley.)
Agree completely with this assessment.
..............
I'd take issue with this costing millions of jobs but he is potentially right in principle. Cameron's veto will keep the eurosceptics and the Tory press onside, it also benefits the city who are inline to be on the receiving end of regulation in the near future but that's another debate. What does it do though for the non-financial sector? I can see it being harder for British manufacturing to sell to the EU, cheap sterling might make it easier for them, but that can change, otherwise I can see this costing jobs.
The veto might not be so bad if Cameron/Osborne have a credible growth strategy for the UK, so far we've tried austerity and that hasn't/isn't working, we need to invest and grow and that means a monetary policy which supports manufacturing and anything which is value added. Just as we are finally getting round as a nation to addressing that issue Cameron is making potentially harder to export to Europe which is our largest export market. Isolationism has never worked as an economic policy and a recession is bad time to start experimenting with it.
Anyone thinking that the US is going to save us in some way - dream on - the "special relationship" is something that exists only in the minds of Atlanticists.
At least we have a few more years of North Sea oil revenues left.
The one thing I have in common with Boris Johnson is the idea of building an airport in the Thames. It would create work and provide us with the additional landing slots which I understand are badly neded after Heathrow's extra runway application was abandoned. Will it work? I have no idea but doing feck all other than more austerity for the next decade surely isn't the answer.
I think a problem for Goonerhater's three options is, as I mentioned in an earlier post, other than UKIP none of the others want to exit the EU so that rules out any referendum. Who would speak in favour of exit other than UKIP? There may be Eurosceptics in both Tory and Labour parties but the idea of Bill Cash and Denis (the beast of Bolsover) Skinner sharing a platform is surely too far fetched. Like GH I have no attachment to a coin which has the word 'pound' on it. For those who feel it important, the Queen's bonce could be on a euro and although the EU has not shown itself adept at tax and budgeting, neither have our politicians. Hiding spending through off balance sheet PFI deals which both parties have done hardly fills me with pride.
Can we survive on our own? I doubt it but that is what Cameron has committed us to.
And to make matters worse, we dropped 2 points in Poland today.
I do hope so.
Found this quite interesting
Very
Agree with Legal - the Yanks have got their own problems and it looks like they'll be looking inward. The "Special Relationship" was always a lot more "Special" to us than it was to them.