Somewhat a false dichotomy Grapevine as neither of the alternatives accurately reflect my stated views. Perhaps my views are closer to those expressed by Lord Hailsham in his elective dictatorship arguments.
What would I do?
Rein back the powers given to Murdoch and ensure a plurailty of opinion within the press and TV. Views and opinions are valid, but I wish to read a cross section, not a right wing selection. The manipulation of public opinion should worry all of us
Consign the current parliament buildings to history and tourism. Replace it with a new fit for purpose building of an 'in the round' architecture.
Reform the voting system to a true PR.
Have a fully elected second chamber.
Do something about the City of London such that its inner machinations become transparent.
My list goes on and on, but to expand is to miss the point. There is no perfect democracy, but I would like to improve on that which we currently have to endure and I am heartily depressed by the manner in which the UK population has so meekly accepted all the foul machinations by some of those in the financial sectors.
Somewhat a false dichotomy Grapevine as neither of the alternatives accurately reflect my stated views. Perhaps my views are closer to those expressed by Lord Hailsham in his elective dictatorship arguments.
What would I do?
Rein back the powers given to Murdoch and ensure a plurailty of opinion within the press and TV. Views and opinions are valid, but I wish to read a cross section, not a right wing selection. The manipulation of public opinion should worry all of us
Consign the current parliament buildings to history and tourism. Replace it with a new fit for purpose building of an 'in the round' architecture.
Reform the voting system to a true PR.
Have a fully elected second chamber.
Do something about the City of London such that its inner machinations become transparent.
My list goes on and on, but to expand is to miss the point. There is no perfect democracy, but I would like to improve on that which we currently have to endure and I am heartily depressed by the manner in which the UK population has so meekly accepted all the foul machinations by some of those in the financial sectors.
1. Control the press? Great idea.
2. Great idea, now how much would this new building cost us again, and where would we put it?
3. Didn't we just say "No" to a watered down version of PR pretty overwhelmingly?
4. Which would then render the second chamber pretty obsolete, why have it if they're just going to end up being like politicians now are?
5. Government interferance in the private sector? Sounds smart.
We're well and truly fluffed when it comes to the private sector, what we can do is try and encourage manufacturing to return to the UK.
I also agree that it's ridiculous that calling some one a "tory" is some how a slur, thank labour/blair for that one. The left are just as bad as the right, lets face it.
It's about time we started talking about "Little Frenchmen" and no, I don't mean Nicolas Sarkozy.
In the French parliament, Finance Minister Francois Baroin poked fun at Britain, saying the fiscal pact had been backed by every country in Europe, "with the singular, now solitary, exception of Great Britain, which history will remember as marginalised. The chairman of the French central bank, Christian Noyer, has said ratings agencies should downgrade the UK before France because its economy is weaker".
This is following on from Standard & Poor's placing its 'AAA' long-term unsolicited sovereign credit rating on the Republic of France on CreditWatch with negative implications.
How pathetic, it's like a five year old who has done something wrong, trying to blame their sister.
And the marginalisation of the UK lasted long, didn't it?
"The UK has been asked to play a role in negotiations over an EU-wide fiscal pact despite refusing to sign up to the proposed agreement. No 10 said the UK would participate in "technical discussions" over the accord since, although not an active participant, it wanted it to succeed".
A few snippets this morning:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Newsnight last night reported that non-eurozone EU members (<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Sweden, Denmark, Hungary & Czech Republic) and 2 eurozone members (Finland & Ireland) are likely to oppose the specifics being floated for the Treaty. The Czech Republic Ambassador to the UK said "this EU Treaty is like the Loch Ness Monster - everyone has heard of it, no one's seen it" before saying that his government's position was not significantly different in character to the UK's and that it would not agree the mooted tax harmonisation component of the Treaty.
Meanwhile, the FT reports that the draft prospectus for bond issuance by the EFSF includes risk warnings that include the possibility that the Euro could cease to be a lawful currency.
Following, as said by Addickted, the free advice to the ratings agencies from the head of the French central bank (quite what he does for his salary is something of a curiosity since he doesn't have a currency…………at least not at the moment), this morning the French Finance Minister is reported to have said that "it is better to be French than British in the current economic environment".....and a joyeux noel to you too.
And the marginalisation of the UK lasted long, didn't it?
"The UK has been asked to play a role in negotiations over an EU-wide fiscal pact despite refusing to sign up to the proposed agreement. No 10 said the UK would participate in "technical discussions" over the accord since, although not an active participant, it wanted it to succeed".
My understanding is that we invited ourselves to the party.
Whether we were invited or are going to gatecrash (sorry - invite ourselves) it is far better to be present and contribute to the discussions even though we have no vote. What happens to the euro affects every person in this country and all our politicians know it.
And the marginalisation of the UK lasted long, didn't it?
"The UK has been asked to play a role in negotiations over an EU-wide fiscal pact despite refusing to sign up to the proposed agreement. No 10 said the UK would participate in "technical discussions" over the accord since, although not an active participant, it wanted it to succeed".
And Cameron knew that along. Which is fine, he's a politician and he's playing politics just as all the other leaders are with their public statements.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating and we can see that we're not the only ones who don't like the current recipe. It's just that others, the Scandinavians in particular, have a less confrontational system and less reason to bash the British/French/Germans for public consumption.
So now the real work begins, the horse trading starts and deals and compromises are made and be sure the UK will be doing as much, if not more, than anyone else. As they should.
Maggie used the same rhetoric but she also made damn sure she was at the bargaining table and got what she saw as the best possible deal for her country.
I said in one of my early contributions that the British people are Euro sceptics by nature and each Government of both political persuasions has talked this talk whilst moving us in the opposite direction towards integration.
The United Kingdom have been cautious from the word go about Europe . The EEC was created in 1957 by the Treaty of Rome and we didn't sign up until 1973 a full 16 years later . Some believe we have never properly caught up others that we should never have signed up at all .
My view is we are now tied into Europe economically over nearly 40 years and our problem is Britain's reliance on financial services which have gradually destroyed our manufacuring base .In contrast I understand that Germany still actually exports goods and services to the Asian market .This is deeply ironic considering given that we were once the 'Workshop of the World ' a hundred years ago.
unless I'm misunderstanding you, we didn't sign up to the common market until the 70s, (when a referendum voted in favour) due largely to the French vetoing our membership under De Gaulle
And the marginalisation of the UK lasted long, didn't it?
"The UK has been asked to play a role in negotiations over an EU-wide fiscal pact despite refusing to sign up to the proposed agreement. No 10 said the UK would participate in "technical discussions" over the accord since, although not an active participant, it wanted it to succeed".
And Cameron knew that along. Which is fine, he's a politician and he's playing politics just as all the other leaders are with their public statements.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating and we can see that we're not the only ones who don't like the current recipe. It's just that others, the Scandinavians in particular, have a less confrontational system and less reason to bash the British/French/Germans for public consumption.
So now the real work begins, the horse trading starts and deals and compromises are made and be sure the UK will be doing as much, if not more, than anyone else. As they should.
Maggie used the same rhetoric but she also made damn sure she was at the bargaining table and got what she saw as the best possible deal for her country.
Basically, as per usual, Britain has the balls to stand up for what she/it ? thinks is right ! While others keep their heads down.
Basically, as per usual, Britain has the balls to stand up for what she/it ? thinks is right ! While others keep their heads down.
Or some of the others knew what they wanted but also saw that the negotiating table was where the deals would be made, not in the home paper headlines or sound bites.
Sweden et al will be buddying up to the UK to form a bloc. 0208 Europe v 0207 Europe of France/German/Benelux
Basically, as per usual, Britain has the balls to stand up for what she/it ? thinks is right ! While others keep their heads down.
You can't negotiate if you are not at the table. Britain is needed by Europe, just as Britain needs Europe, as the figures posted by PA and myself upthread demonstrate the EU is well worth over £400bn annually and represents over half our trade, anyone who voluntarily cuts themselves off from that market is taking a reckless gamble.
In any case pulling out of the EU won't dramatically lessen the impact of the EU on our lives - we'll still have to implement around 90% of EU legislation except we won't have any influence in framing it.
Basically, as per usual, Britain has the balls to stand up for what she/it ? thinks is right ! While others keep their heads down.
You can't negotiate if you are not at the table. Britain is needed by Europe, just as Britain needs Europe, as the figures posted by PA and myself upthread demonstrate the EU is well worth over £400bn annually and represents over half our trade, anyone who voluntarily cuts themselves off from that market is taking a reckless gamble.
In any case pulling out of the EU won't dramatically lessen the impact of the EU on our lives - we'll still have to implement around 90% of EU legislation except we won't have any influence in framing it.
I thought we did try to negotiate & Merkosy refused. It was their way or the highway.
Comments
Somewhat a false dichotomy Grapevine as neither of the alternatives accurately reflect my stated views. Perhaps my views are closer to those expressed by Lord Hailsham in his elective dictatorship arguments.
What would I do?
Rein back the powers given to Murdoch and ensure a plurailty of opinion within the press and TV. Views and opinions are valid, but I wish to read a cross section, not a right wing selection. The manipulation of public opinion should worry all of us
Consign the current parliament buildings to history and tourism. Replace it with a new fit for purpose building of an 'in the round' architecture.
Reform the voting system to a true PR.
Have a fully elected second chamber.
Do something about the City of London such that its inner machinations become transparent.
My list goes on and on, but to expand is to miss the point. There is no perfect democracy, but I would like to improve on that which we currently have to endure and I am heartily depressed by the manner in which the UK population has so meekly accepted all the foul machinations by some of those in the financial sectors.
It's about time we started talking about "Little Frenchmen" and no, I don't mean Nicolas Sarkozy.
In the French parliament, Finance Minister Francois Baroin poked fun at Britain, saying the fiscal pact had been backed by every country in Europe, "with the singular, now solitary, exception of Great Britain, which history will remember as marginalised. The chairman of the French central bank, Christian Noyer, has said ratings agencies should downgrade the UK before France because its economy is weaker".
This is following on from Standard & Poor's placing its 'AAA' long-term unsolicited sovereign credit rating on the Republic of France on CreditWatch with negative implications.How pathetic, it's like a five year old who has done something wrong, trying to blame their sister.
And the marginalisation of the UK lasted long, didn't it?
"The UK has been asked to play a role in negotiations over an EU-wide fiscal pact despite refusing to sign up to the proposed agreement. No 10 said the UK would participate in "technical discussions" over the accord since, although not an active participant, it wanted it to succeed".
A few snippets this morning:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Newsnight last night reported that non-eurozone EU members (<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Sweden, Denmark, Hungary & Czech Republic) and 2 eurozone members (Finland & Ireland) are likely to oppose the specifics being floated for the Treaty. The Czech Republic Ambassador to the UK said "this EU Treaty is like the Loch Ness Monster - everyone has heard of it, no one's seen it" before saying that his government's position was not significantly different in character to the UK's and that it would not agree the mooted tax harmonisation component of the Treaty.
Meanwhile, the FT reports that the draft prospectus for bond issuance by the EFSF includes risk warnings that include the possibility that the Euro could cease to be a lawful currency.
Following, as said by Addickted, the free advice to the ratings agencies from the head of the French central bank (quite what he does for his salary is something of a curiosity since he doesn't have a currency…………at least not at the moment), this morning the French Finance Minister is reported to have said that "it is better to be French than British in the current economic environment".....and a joyeux noel to you too.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating and we can see that we're not the only ones who don't like the current recipe. It's just that others, the Scandinavians in particular, have a less confrontational system and less reason to bash the British/French/Germans for public consumption.
So now the real work begins, the horse trading starts and deals and compromises are made and be sure the UK will be doing as much, if not more, than anyone else. As they should.
Maggie used the same rhetoric but she also made damn sure she was at the bargaining table and got what she saw as the best possible deal for her country.
unless I'm misunderstanding you, we didn't sign up to the common market until the 70s, (when a referendum voted in favour) due largely to the French vetoing our membership under De Gaulle
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/27/newsid_4187000/4187714.stm
Basically, as per usual, Britain has the balls to stand up for what she/it ? thinks is right ! While others keep their heads down.
Sweden et al will be buddying up to the UK to form a bloc. 0208 Europe v 0207 Europe of France/German/Benelux
Basically, as per usual, Britain has the balls to stand up for what she/it ? thinks is right ! While others keep their heads down.
You can't negotiate if you are not at the table. Britain is needed by Europe, just as Britain needs Europe, as the figures posted by PA and myself upthread demonstrate the EU is well worth over £400bn annually and represents over half our trade, anyone who voluntarily cuts themselves off from that market is taking a reckless gamble.
In any case pulling out of the EU won't dramatically lessen the impact of the EU on our lives - we'll still have to implement around 90% of EU legislation except we won't have any influence in framing it.