To answer the question. Up to our necks in poo - and the tide's coming in. No one has any answers - least of all politicians who make statements which are the polar opposites of what other politicians are saying. Our half-way house approach is the worst of all options. We pay but are ignored and are blamed when there is a lack of agreement. My personal preference is that I would rather be inside the tent than on our own outside. The pound has hardly set the world alight being outside has it (as I find when trying to 'buy' currency)?
Regardless of who has been in power we have broadly had the same view of a midly Euro sceptic position despite embracing closer Union when it was perceived to be in the national interest . In some ways this has made us fall between two stools , but I don't believe the British people would ever vote for full integration and this could be the nub of the problem.
This debate has crossed Party lines like no other and both major Parties have changed policies more than once . It is worth remembering Margeret Thatcher a stated Euro sceptic gave up more powers to Europe in the following the 1983 General Election than any other British PM at a time when Labour had fought that election on a policy of withdrawl from the European Community and recorded its lowest post war rating , indeed that was one of the policies that provoked the formation of the SDP . In the 1975 Referendum you had Ted Heath , Roy Hattersley and Roy Jenkins on one side and Tony Benn , Michael Foot and wait for it Enoch Powell sharing political platforms around the country.
The answer really is we have to make our minds up and it is this reluctance that makes us the Millwall of Europe because this Euro sceptic rhetoric whilst sometimes moving towards integration when it suits us does not help us .
I think ours and Europe's futures are undeniably linked moving forward and we have got to accept that , the question is how do we get the balance right .
Assuming Razil's comment was serious, if the pound was stronger then what we as consumers pay would come down and when (if) we go abroad for our holidays we would get more for our money. Our exports would suffer but as we have naff all in terms of manufacturing (we have given that to the far east) I'm not sure that is a big loss.
Nothing meaningful has been decided and, as a political opportunist in the mould of Blair, Cameron is grandstanding and pretending to be Eurosceptic in an attempt to con both the few MPs in the House of Commons with a genuine interest in helping the country and people they represent and the people as a whole he betrayed over Lisbon.
When we stop lobbing money that could be used to stop old people dying of thirst in hospitals or keep libraries open at the EU I might believe he is representing us rather than the embryonic state of EU.
arguably the citys influence making a high pound has contributed to the decimation of our manufacturing base, making large unemployment in the private sector, and year on year of trade deficits reducing our standard of living
The Uk has relied far too much on the money derived from the financial services industry and the City of London in recent years. I'm all for a financial transactions tax, so long as it is global and doesn't discriminate. Markets have become a gigantic casino, where small investors have no hope of beating the traders at the large institutions. A deterrant is required to prevent the kind of speculation that is causing such turmoil around the globe. Time for countries to start being productive again, and that doesn't mean pushing paper around or playing with figures on a computer screen.
The next step is Europe seeing this as a freedom to work against us. Looks to me to be the first step towards us leaving. Whilst I am against what Europe has become- it should always have been just a common market - I do think this will damage us and sometimes you have to take the least worse of two options.
Isn't the 'city' tax .005 % of profits - but the city are major funders of the Tories and they are the party who have the most Anti Europeans in their midst. The Lib Dems are the most pro Europe party in the UK and you can liken this to Darth Vader and the Emporer on the Death Star. With the PR vote and this I do think the coalition is also in danger in the short to medium term now.
I want to see a financial transaction tax, but agree with those who say it will only work if it is global. But if we had a more positive co-operative role in Europe, we could have persuaded them. Instead , as was quoted, we are like a bloke who goes to a wife- swapping party but hasn't got a wife to swap. Nobody takes any notice of us any more, because we behave like knobs. Cameron's stand certainly benefits people like Terry Smith, but will not bring anything good to the rest of you, even if you have him as a boss. Remember that old newspaper headline "fog in Channel- Continent cut off" ? Well that's how so many of the comments above sound, when read from the Continent. I believe this is the end of Britain as part of Europe and I feel sad about it; not least because I will probably have to decide how to ensure that it doesn't affect me personally.
Len's right it is major grandstanding, DC has to walk a tightrope with his own party with regrads to Europe. Shame he couldn't be so hard arsed with the CAP. I think generally where we stand now/whether it was a correct decision will be effected by your political view/view on whether we should be in or out of Europe.
The thing I am quite sure about is (as put so well by PragueA) that our tactics going into the negotiations would be laughable (if it was funny). We told everybody what we wanted and didn't want before we even got there. We had no allies, no partnerships, nothing. It must really pee off the LD part of the coalition.
If I was cynical (which I am) I would see this as a strategy to fold the coalition, call an election and stand the Tory Party on an out of europe ticket, if that was his aim, then fair play he has played a blinder. If it is not his aim, well.........
Or Cameron could just have agreed to every thing and those saviours of the human race the Labour party would have said he sold out. Thank f**k at least one of the 3 main parties has a good few anti Europians other than the rest who dont mind getting totaly totaly shafted and paying for it.
If we say yes we are still on the out side ---- what have we lost by saying no ---- what ?
What benefits to saying yes do we get ? where does it benefit ANYONE . If they dont want us tell us to f**k off and take our big pot of cash away.
Sick to death of people who are "pro europian" giving it "little Englander" type bull shit.
The real problem is - if the Euro fails we are bu**ered and if it is saved and gets stronger we are bu**ered. I am anti Europe in teh sense that I think France and Germany have taken what should have been a favourable trading block far to far for political rather than economic reasons (especially in Germany's case). But whilst I think this is the case, they have done so and nobody can do anything about it and the further on the margins we are the worse it will be for us.
We dont manufacture much but maybe we should look more and more to India and China and less to an EU.
Do you think that India and China will bother with trying to do business with Britain and our 55-60m people when they can spend their time and energy tapping into the EU and NAFTA?
The balance of economic power is shifting away from western Europe towards the East - not only are eastern European nations rising fast (including Russia) but you have the Middle East and Asia. We are poorly located to serve these nations.
The real problem is - if the Euro fails we are bu**ered and if it is saved and gets stronger we are bu**ered. I am anti Europe in teh sense that I think France and Germany have taken what should have been a favourable trading block far to far for political rather than economic reasons (especially in Germany's case). But whilst I think this is the case, they have done so and nobody can do anything about it and the further on the margins we are the worse it will be for us.
The benefit to Germany is economic not political - they are one of the world's biggest exporters and were for a while the biggest global exporters, bigger than China, India and the US, all nations with large manufacturing hubs who also rely on exports.
Germany wanted a small Eurozone - Germany, Benelux, France and maybe the UK, - which would make sense to me, it was the French who wanted to include southern European nations like Greece etc to counterbalance potential German domination.
Or Cameron could just have agreed to every thing and those saviours of the human race the Labour party would have said he sold out. Thank f**k at least one of the 3 main parties has a good few anti Europians other than the rest who dont mind getting totaly totaly shafted and paying for it.
If we say yes we are still on the out side ---- what have we lost by saying no ---- what ?
What benefits to saying yes do we get ? where does it benefit ANYONE . If they dont want us tell us to f**k off and take our big pot of cash away.
Sick to death of people who are "pro europian" giving it "little Englander" type bull shit.
Your thesis ignores that it was the Conservatives who took us into the EEC (as was) on not very advantageous terms. The EEC nations were amazed that Heath negotiated away so much just to join. Arguably that was where the problems began.
Then it was your beloved Thatcher who signed up to Maastricht and the Federal EU, then the Tory right demanded access to the EU and wanted to tap into that market, thinking that it would be a free market bonanza, however when they did they failed to appreciate that "socialist" Europe managed to outcompete the UK and took too much market share away at home. Consequently the Tory right became Eurosceptics overnight, how convenient.
It was also the Conservative party who signed us up for the ERM and remember it cost us billions to extricate ourselves from that mess. Incidentally the advisor to Norman Lamont at the time was David Cameron, whatever happened to him?
So after DC vetoed the new EU treaty where does it leave us, are we very vunerable ? Discuss but can we leave the tory this, labour that away and just views on the implications.
re my earlier comment, here's a great example of how our actions are seen
"Storm in the English channel. Britain isolated," is how El País puts it. "This time it is not the continent that has been isolated by the storm, as the British like to joke, but Great Britain itself.""It is a dream for true eurosceptics, those who want the United Kingdom out of the European Union," El País' London correspondent Walter Oppenheimer writes. "But it could turn out to be a nightmare for the average eurosceptic - who would rather the EU did not exist but, given that it does, wants it to be as British as possible."
Its like a Micky Flanagan (not the player) routine.
We aint in the Euro so we are out but we aint really out out as we are in the EU on the other hand now Cameron as said we aint having it are we now out--out?
my beloved Thatcher ? do go f**k yourself for that insult,
Its like a Micky Flanagan (not the player) routine.
We aint in the Euro so we are out but we aint really out out as we are in the EU on the other hand now Cameron as said we aint having it are we now out--out?
my beloved Thatcher ? do go f**k yourself for that insult,
I see our token little Englander is lecturing us on being English, yet resolutely refuses to write (or even rant) in anything resembling the English language.
Cameron has taken the only option viable to him - the other option is to negotiate a reasonable solution, but that would mean ceding power on taxation to the EU, something the headbanger/Eurosceptic wing in the Tory party would find unacceptable. They would demand a referendum which would split the Tory party and cause the collapse of the coalition.
Comments
Thank goodness CAFC give me some optimism.
It's fascinating watching what might happen .
Regardless of who has been in power we have broadly had the same view of a midly Euro sceptic position despite embracing closer Union when it was perceived to be in the national interest . In some ways this has made us fall between two stools , but I don't believe the British people would ever vote for full integration and this could be the nub of the problem.
This debate has crossed Party lines like no other and both major Parties have changed policies more than once . It is worth remembering Margeret Thatcher a stated Euro sceptic gave up more powers to Europe in the following the 1983 General Election than any other British PM at a time when Labour had fought that election on a policy of withdrawl from the European Community and recorded its lowest post war rating , indeed that was one of the policies that provoked the formation of the SDP . In the 1975 Referendum you had Ted Heath , Roy Hattersley and Roy Jenkins on one side and Tony Benn , Michael Foot and wait for it Enoch Powell sharing political platforms around the country.
The answer really is we have to make our minds up and it is this reluctance that makes us the Millwall of Europe because this Euro sceptic rhetoric whilst sometimes moving towards integration when it suits us does not help us .
I think ours and Europe's futures are undeniably linked moving forward and we have got to accept that , the question is how do we get the balance right .
Much ado about nothing.
Nothing meaningful has been decided and, as a political opportunist in the mould of Blair, Cameron is grandstanding and pretending to be Eurosceptic in an attempt to con both the few MPs in the House of Commons with a genuine interest in helping the country and people they represent and the people as a whole he betrayed over Lisbon.
When we stop lobbing money that could be used to stop old people dying of thirst in hospitals or keep libraries open at the EU I might believe he is representing us rather than the embryonic state of EU.
I won't hold my breath!
Time for countries to start being productive again, and that doesn't mean pushing paper around or playing with figures on a computer screen.
speaking to a bloke in the office today, he reckons it is questionable whether such a tax would have as much impact as being mooted
The next step is Europe seeing this as a freedom to work against us. Looks to me to be the first step towards us leaving. Whilst I am against what Europe has become- it should always have been just a common market - I do think this will damage us and sometimes you have to take the least worse of two options.
Isn't the 'city' tax .005 % of profits - but the city are major funders of the Tories and they are the party who have the most Anti Europeans in their midst. The Lib Dems are the most pro Europe party in the UK and you can liken this to Darth Vader and the Emporer on the Death Star. With the PR vote and this I do think the coalition is also in danger in the short to medium term now.
could have persuaded them. Instead , as was quoted, we are like a bloke who goes to a wife- swapping party but hasn't got a wife to swap. Nobody takes any notice of us any more, because we behave like knobs.
Cameron's stand certainly benefits people like Terry Smith, but will not bring anything good to the rest of you, even if you have him as a boss.
Remember that old newspaper headline "fog in Channel- Continent cut off" ? Well that's how so many of the comments above sound, when read from the Continent. I believe this is the end of Britain as part of Europe and I feel sad about it; not least because I will probably have to decide how to ensure that it doesn't affect me personally.
Len's right it is major grandstanding, DC has to walk a tightrope with his own party with regrads to Europe. Shame he couldn't be so hard arsed with the CAP. I think generally where we stand now/whether it was a correct decision will be effected by your political view/view on whether we should be in or out of Europe.
The thing I am quite sure about is (as put so well by PragueA) that our tactics going into the negotiations would be laughable (if it was funny). We told everybody what we wanted and didn't want before we even got there. We had no allies, no partnerships, nothing. It must really pee off the LD part of the coalition.
If I was cynical (which I am) I would see this as a strategy to fold the coalition, call an election and stand the Tory Party on an out of europe ticket, if that was his aim, then fair play he has played a blinder. If it is not his aim, well.........
The real problem is - if the Euro fails we are bu**ered and if it is saved and gets stronger we are bu**ered. I am anti Europe in teh sense that I think France and Germany have taken what should have been a favourable trading block far to far for political rather than economic reasons (especially in Germany's case). But whilst I think this is the case, they have done so and nobody can do anything about it and the further on the margins we are the worse it will be for us.
Do you think that India and China will bother with trying to do business with Britain and our 55-60m people when they can spend their time and energy tapping into the EU and NAFTA?
The balance of economic power is shifting away from western Europe towards the East - not only are eastern European nations rising fast (including Russia) but you have the Middle East and Asia. We are poorly located to serve these nations.
The benefit to Germany is economic not political - they are one of the world's biggest exporters and were for a while the biggest global exporters, bigger than China, India and the US, all nations with large manufacturing hubs who also rely on exports.
Germany wanted a small Eurozone - Germany, Benelux, France and maybe the UK, - which would make sense to me, it was the French who wanted to include southern European nations like Greece etc to counterbalance potential German domination.
Your thesis ignores that it was the Conservatives who took us into the EEC (as was) on not very advantageous terms. The EEC nations were amazed that Heath negotiated away so much just to join. Arguably that was where the problems began.
Then it was your beloved Thatcher who signed up to Maastricht and the Federal EU, then the Tory right demanded access to the EU and wanted to tap into that market, thinking that it would be a free market bonanza, however when they did they failed to appreciate that "socialist" Europe managed to outcompete the UK and took too much market share away at home. Consequently the Tory right became Eurosceptics overnight, how convenient.
It was also the Conservative party who signed us up for the ERM and remember it cost us billions to extricate ourselves from that mess. Incidentally the advisor to Norman Lamont at the time was David Cameron, whatever happened to him?
1 says no.
As the Americans would say. Go figure.
I see our token little Englander is lecturing us on being English, yet resolutely refuses to write (or even rant) in anything resembling the English language.
In front of people who want to sit down of course !