I've never been involved in hooliganism, so I might be wrong, but it seems like 99% of it is aimless running around.
I was thinking the same Uboat, betwen the 2 clips above and the one involving the steward I have only seen half a dozen good punches thrown. Take out the video camramen, the photographers and the flares and there is not much else going on you dont see on a Saturday night in town somewhere
Yesterday just looked like the poles attacking anyone although to be fair if you march through Warsaw like that it should be expected. That video of the croats saving a bloke from the Ob was quality though!
I can see where SE10 is coming from, bit like the Orange parades in Ireland, if they went down certain roads/streets it would end in carnage, thats why they stopped it
I'm sure I heard last night that the Russian fans got permission to march. Now if that's true you have to ask serious questions about the Polish authorities, firstly, why would you let them? Second, once they had been granted permission surely you would ensure enough police where there to contain any situation.
If they hadn't have granted permission, do you think the russians would've just made their merry way to the ground without any reference to their independence day?
They probably thought this would be easier to contain, 5,000 all in one place and can police that more easily than hundreds of groups all spread out.
Yesterday just looked like the poles attacking anyone although to be fair if you march through Warsaw like that it should be expected. That video of the croats saving a bloke from the Ob was quality though!
really...
There's still a generation of Poles alive who survived the Siberian Death Camps. Now obviously those who were kicking off were too young to be directly affected and a large % of them probably were just thugs up for a ruck looking for any excuse but having said that there is still a lot of ill feeling and tension between a lot of Polish people and Russians.
I think marching through Warsaw celebrating Russia Day (some waving Soviet flags) was not a smart move. Not defending it or justifying it Im just saying that I can understand it.
Marching through Bagdhad waving the stars and stripes on 4th July in 50 odd years time probably wont be advisible and would be deemed a little insensitive. Or waving a German flag on Germany day in Tel Aviv probably would irk some people there despite the fact that resentment is based on past history and we should all move on.
I have close family who were taken from Poland to the Labour Camps in Siberia and whilst I can happily get on with my Russian colleagues and have the nous to know it is nothing to do with them or their generation trying to get family members who saw there homes taken and their siblings murdered or worked to death in front of their own eyes to let it go and leave it in the past is a different matter.
As i say not excusing the random violence and most of it was probably just piss head thugs up for a ruck but the ill feeling is there and understandable that they didnt all hold hands and sing "We are the World" as wrong as it may be.
Yesterday just looked like the poles attacking anyone although to be fair if you march through Warsaw like that it should be expected. That video of the croats saving a bloke from the Ob was quality though!
really...
There's still a generation of Poles alive who survived the Siberian Death Camps. Now obviously those who were kicking off were too young to be directly affected and a large % of them probably were just thugs up for a ruck looking for any excuse but having said that there is still a lot of ill feeling and tension between a lot of Polish people and Russians.
I think marching through Warsaw celebrating Russia Day (some waving Soviet flags) was not a smart move. Not defending it or justifying it Im just saying that I can understand it.
Marching through Bagdhad waving the stars and stripes on 4th July in 50 odd years time probably wont be advisible and would be deemed a little insensitive. Or waving a German flag on Germany day in Tel Aviv probably would irk some people there despite the fact that resentment is based on past history and we should all move on.
I have close family who were taken from Poland to the Labour Camps in Siberia and whilst I can happily get on with my Russian colleagues and have the nous to know it is nothing to do with them or their generation trying to get family members who saw there homes taken and their siblings murdered or worked to death in front of their own eyes to let it go and leave it in the past is a different matter.
As i say not excusing the random violence and most of it was probably just piss head thugs up for a ruck but the ill feeling is there and understandable that they didnt all hold hands and sing "We are the World" as wrong as it may be.
It was a bad move. as was 'this is russia' flag that they brought out during the national anthems. i still hold the feeling that it doesn’t excuse the polish for what they were doing. On the other hand would I if polish living in the memory of what has gone on before to my fellow people, like a bunch of russians marching through as if they owned the place. no i probably wouldn’t be very happy about it. puts that whole sun flag stunt into perspective. that was one newspaper with a try at banter. this is thousands marching, as if to make a point, into Warsaw.
and your examples are very valid. makes you think who thought marching was a good idea.
I’m sorry to hear about your family. they are still a country in a state of unrest though they try to make us believe otherwise. Putin is a disgusting individual. ex kgb. still taking anyone who speaks out against him.
I still dont think it justifies the violence and when you look at the type of wallys doing it they aren't likely to be solely doing it for political reasons. As was highlighted by the existence of Neo Nazis in Poland nowdays it shows there's a generation of severly disillusioned and brainwashed weirdos (in a vast minority).
Poland and Russia are only really what 20 odd years old in their present states politically and socially and the move from enforced Communism to what exists now means it is going to take time for the mentality of some elements to alter and the country isnt going to reflect Tonbridge wells or Islington over night in mindset.
And to be fair after Germany cheated us in Euro 96 the scenes afterwards werent much different. Think a Russian student even got stabbed to death being mistaken for a German.
Think overall it was hoolies looking for it and the powder keg of the politics and history just gave it a bit of superficial credibility.
Still was a bloody good game and hope the Poles can go through to the next round ;-)
Ha ha fair enough. Obviously want Poland through but also would be good to see Ukraine go through with us (England) of course as I think having the host nations in it keeps it interesting.
Plus if Poland get knocked out the staff in Starbucks will revert to being miserable again.
sorry for being ignorant but can someone explain to me why Poland and Russia do not get on, i know their neighbours but what has sparked the hatred??
1792 - Poland invaded by Russia - Poland effectively ceased to exist until after WW1 1939 - Poland invaded by Russia 1945-89 - Poland occupied and dominated by Soviet forces
That's the very brief version, but you get the idea.
On the eve of World War II, Soviet archives indicate a combined camp and colony population upwards of 1.6 million in 1939, according to V. P. Kozlov.[30] Anne Applebaum and Steven Rosefielde estimate that 1.2 to 1.5 million people were in Gulag system's prison camps and colonies when the war started.[31][32]
After the German invasion of Poland that marked the start of WWII, the Soviet Union invaded and annexed eastern parts of the Second Polish Republic. In 1940 the Soviet Union occupied Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bessarabia (now the Republic of Moldova) and Bukovina. According to some estimates, hundreds of thousands of Polish citizens[33][34] and inhabitants of the other annexed lands, regardless of their ethnic origin, were arrested and sent to the gulag camps. However, according to the official data, the total number of sentences for political and antistate (espionage, terrorism) crimes in USSR in 1939-41 was 211,106.[18]
Approximately 300,000 Polish prisoners of war were captured by the USSR during and after the 'Polish Defensive War'.[35] Almost all of the captured officers and a large number of ordinary soldiers were then murdered (see Katyn massacre) or sent to Gulag.[36] Of the 10,000-12,000 Poles sent to Kolyma in 1940-1941, most POWs, only 583 men survived, released in 1942 to join the Polish Armed Forces in the East.[37] Out of Anders' 80,000 evacuees from Soviet Union gathered in Great Britain only 310 volunteered to return to Soviet-controlled Poland in 1947.[38]
During the war, Gulag populations declined sharply due to a steep rise in mortality in 1942–43. In the winter of 1941 a quarter of the Gulag's population died of starvation.[39] 516,841 prisoners died in prison camps in 1941-43.[40][41]
In 1943, the term katorga works (каторжные работы) was reintroduced. They were initially intended for Nazi collaborators, but then other categories of political prisoners (for example, members of deported peoples who fled from exile) were also sentenced to "katorga works". Prisoners sentenced to "katorga works" were sent to Gulag prison camps with the most harsh regime and many of them perished.[
My nan was 13 at the time when one night Russian soldiers knocked on her door in the middle of the night and told her and her family (polish peasant farmers with no political involvement) to get their warm clothes. At gun point they were rounded up with hundreds of others and put on cattle trains and driven to one of these Siberian labour camps. They were packed in like sardines and people died on the way and the Russians just threw their bodies out in the snow. They were then forced to work in the arctic conditions to near starvation and literally my nan worked her fingers to the bone (the bone protruded her skin). 3 or 4 or her brothers and sisters died in the camps.
There's not a day passes when she doesnt cry about the trauma she and thousands others like her suffered. When they finally got out of there their homes had been anexed by Russia and are now in what is Ukraine so they had no home and came to England as refugees.
Doesnt get the same coverage as the holocaust and whilst there wasnt the systematic execution and genocide there was still a similar aspect of horrific abuse of what were just normal, poor people who happened to be born in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Comments
Mind you, I think it's time to pack in and go for a beer when this lot turn up. Bit of a step-up from Taffy and Sparks down The Valley!
; )
Also it is so embarrassing watching men fight (windmilling) who haven't got a clue!
That video of the croats saving a bloke from the Ob was quality though!
That rivalry is a lot more than football and the Russians marching would've known that.
They probably thought this would be easier to contain, 5,000 all in one place and can police that more easily than hundreds of groups all spread out.
whatever floats your boat
This only relates to the attack on the stewards in the ground and not last night's events.
I think marching through Warsaw celebrating Russia Day (some waving Soviet flags) was not a smart move. Not defending it or justifying it Im just saying that I can understand it.
Marching through Bagdhad waving the stars and stripes on 4th July in 50 odd years time probably wont be advisible and would be deemed a little insensitive. Or waving a German flag on Germany day in Tel Aviv probably would irk some people there despite the fact that resentment is based on past history and we should all move on.
I have close family who were taken from Poland to the Labour Camps in Siberia and whilst I can happily get on with my Russian colleagues and have the nous to know it is nothing to do with them or their generation trying to get family members who saw there homes taken and their siblings murdered or worked to death in front of their own eyes to let it go and leave it in the past is a different matter.
As i say not excusing the random violence and most of it was probably just piss head thugs up for a ruck but the ill feeling is there and understandable that they didnt all hold hands and sing "We are the World" as wrong as it may be.
It was a bad move. as was 'this is russia' flag that they brought out during the national anthems. i still hold the feeling that it doesn’t excuse the polish for what they were doing.
On the other hand would I if polish living in the memory of what has gone on before to my fellow people, like a bunch of russians marching through as if they owned the place. no i probably wouldn’t be very happy about it. puts that whole sun flag stunt into perspective. that was one newspaper with a try at banter. this is thousands marching, as if to make a point, into Warsaw.
and your examples are very valid. makes you think who thought marching was a good idea.
I’m sorry to hear about your family.
they are still a country in a state of unrest though they try to make us believe otherwise. Putin is a disgusting individual. ex kgb.
still taking anyone who speaks out against him.
Poland and Russia are only really what 20 odd years old in their present states politically and socially and the move from enforced Communism to what exists now means it is going to take time for the mentality of some elements to alter and the country isnt going to reflect Tonbridge wells or Islington over night in mindset.
And to be fair after Germany cheated us in Euro 96 the scenes afterwards werent much different. Think a Russian student even got stabbed to death being mistaken for a German.
Think overall it was hoolies looking for it and the powder keg of the politics and history just gave it a bit of superficial credibility.
Still was a bloody good game and hope the Poles can go through to the next round ;-)
Plus if Poland get knocked out the staff in Starbucks will revert to being miserable again.
i believe that polish suffered greatly in times gone by due to the russians and their behaviour during the war and cold war times
might be wrong
1939 - Poland invaded by Russia
1945-89 - Poland occupied and dominated by Soviet forces
That's the very brief version, but you get the idea.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#During_World_War_II
On the eve of World War II, Soviet archives indicate a combined camp and colony population upwards of 1.6 million in 1939, according to V. P. Kozlov.[30] Anne Applebaum and Steven Rosefielde estimate that 1.2 to 1.5 million people were in Gulag system's prison camps and colonies when the war started.[31][32]
After the German invasion of Poland that marked the start of WWII, the Soviet Union invaded and annexed eastern parts of the Second Polish Republic. In 1940 the Soviet Union occupied Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bessarabia (now the Republic of Moldova) and Bukovina. According to some estimates, hundreds of thousands of Polish citizens[33][34] and inhabitants of the other annexed lands, regardless of their ethnic origin, were arrested and sent to the gulag camps. However, according to the official data, the total number of sentences for political and antistate (espionage, terrorism) crimes in USSR in 1939-41 was 211,106.[18]
Approximately 300,000 Polish prisoners of war were captured by the USSR during and after the 'Polish Defensive War'.[35] Almost all of the captured officers and a large number of ordinary soldiers were then murdered (see Katyn massacre) or sent to Gulag.[36] Of the 10,000-12,000 Poles sent to Kolyma in 1940-1941, most POWs, only 583 men survived, released in 1942 to join the Polish Armed Forces in the East.[37] Out of Anders' 80,000 evacuees from Soviet Union gathered in Great Britain only 310 volunteered to return to Soviet-controlled Poland in 1947.[38]
During the war, Gulag populations declined sharply due to a steep rise in mortality in 1942–43. In the winter of 1941 a quarter of the Gulag's population died of starvation.[39] 516,841 prisoners died in prison camps in 1941-43.[40][41]
In 1943, the term katorga works (каторжные работы) was reintroduced. They were initially intended for Nazi collaborators, but then other categories of political prisoners (for example, members of deported peoples who fled from exile) were also sentenced to "katorga works". Prisoners sentenced to "katorga works" were sent to Gulag prison camps with the most harsh regime and many of them perished.[
My nan was 13 at the time when one night Russian soldiers knocked on her door in the middle of the night and told her and her family (polish peasant farmers with no political involvement) to get their warm clothes. At gun point they were rounded up with hundreds of others and put on cattle trains and driven to one of these Siberian labour camps. They were packed in like sardines and people died on the way and the Russians just threw their bodies out in the snow. They were then forced to work in the arctic conditions to near starvation and literally my nan worked her fingers to the bone (the bone protruded her skin). 3 or 4 or her brothers and sisters died in the camps.
There's not a day passes when she doesnt cry about the trauma she and thousands others like her suffered. When they finally got out of there their homes had been anexed by Russia and are now in what is Ukraine so they had no home and came to England as refugees.
Doesnt get the same coverage as the holocaust and whilst there wasnt the systematic execution and genocide there was still a similar aspect of horrific abuse of what were just normal, poor people who happened to be born in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Bit more about it here... http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-5109.html