Been a long time lurker on here - I'm a Millwall fan, but have Charlton family members, so take an interest. Thought I'd join to comment on this, as do have some inside info on it.
The first mistake people have made is to assume that any capacity increase is a part of the re-gen. It is not. The option to increase the capacity has been in included to reassure the club/fans that the re-gen will not impact on the club's ability to expand should we need to. That is to say we will not be hemmed in by the development (see Leyton Orient).
However, interesting that people have questioned Millwall's ability to sell out the current stadium. The home seating areas have been sold out numerous times - the entire back end of our League One promotion season in 2001, and the following season's play-off push also saw a number of home area sell-outs.
Whilst it's true that our average gates do not indicate a need for a capcity increase - with an average of 10-11,000 Millwall fans filling the 14,000 home seats over the years - there is actually a need to be able to accomodate more home fans for big games. The visits of Leeds, Palace, West Ham (and Charlton) have regularly seen demand outstrip supply fairly quickly. As to have important fixtures - League One promotion games v Gillingham and Oldham saw Millwall fans in the away stand - yet there was still demand beyond the 18,000 home tickets available.
I don't think it's so silly for the club to gain assurance that should the need arise that we will be able to increase capacity to circa 24,000. Which would be about right for a Millwall playing in the Premier League, and hardly overly ambitious (imo). Nor is silly for a football club to have aspiration.
Getting back to the re-gen. I think it can only be a good thing for the club. Football has moved on, Millwall need to as well. I still think we will retain a certain character by virtue of being an inner-city London club - according to the club over 80% of season ticket holders have SE postcodes still. However, we do need to get the floating fans going more regularly, the Wembley day-trippers, the one big game a season mob and yes, the new people moving into the swanky parts of Southwark. And I believe re-vamping the area will help with that. Not as much as a successful football team of course, but every bit helps.
And I don't think being in the heart of a 6-8,000 community right on our door-step will do us any harm either. At worst they'll ignore the football team on their door-step, or maybe some will become fans / customers.
The new sport facilities might convince a few more talented youngsters to join the club too, maybe over Crystal Palace, who provide 1960s level facilities to their aspiring young footballers.
Will the club beome gentrified? I doubt it. It might become a bit more middle-class, like the rest of football, but times change. However, the plumbers, brickies, scaffolders, plasterers that make up our bread and butter support will still be there...just they might have to put up with a few more replica top wearinf soccer fans at the bar at half-time.
Besides, the housing is aimed at pretty normal people - not 'yuppies'. And how many yuppies will want to live next door to a recycling plant and football stadium? No, it's for people who simply want to live and work in our beautiful city.
On a last note...as someone who has to suffer South Bermondsey station I cant wait for the new tube stop!
Yes, but will you need more than 14k in L1 the season after next? :-)
When we yo-yo back up...yes. Never underestimate our legion of woodwork supporters!
Sure, they'll only be 8,500 for Hartlepool midweek - but, come the promotion party they'll be 45,000 dye-in-the-wool Lions fans wanting a ticket for Yeovil!
And I don't think being in the heart of a 6-8,000 community right on our door-step will do us any harm either. At worst they'll get petrol bombs down their road & their cars wrecked or maybe some will become proper Millwall fans and join in :-)
Getting back to the re-gen. I think it can only be a good thing for the club. Football has moved on, Millwall need to as well. I still think we will retain a certain character by virtue of being an inner-city London club - according to the club over 80% of season ticket holders have SE postcodes still. However, we do need to get the floating fans going more regularly, the Wembley day-trippers, the one big game a season mob and yes, the new people moving into the swanky parts of Southwark.
Tricky balance to strike though.
Perhaps I'm just getting old & more grumpy, but I go nowadays & sometimes get the right hump with some of the people there. Little wallies who shout a lot of rubbish trying to play the hard man, modern fans who sit there in silence, ask to sit in the right seat, shoot you a look if you shout some obscenity or ask you to sit down so they can see the game, as well as the growing army of foreign tourists who flock to The Den to experience "Millwall"
Week by week it feels less like 'my' club and feel more out of place. Many others feel the same. How do you strike the balance between getting the mix right to keep everyone happy?
And I don't think being in the heart of a 6-8,000 community right on our door-step will do us any harm either. At worst they'll get petrol bombs down their road & their cars wrecked or maybe some will become proper Millwall fans and join in :-)
The majority of car parking is below ground, so all safe on that front. Plus much less damage you can do with a mocha latte and NY deli from Pret.
Getting back to the re-gen. I think it can only be a good thing for the club. Football has moved on, Millwall need to as well. I still think we will retain a certain character by virtue of being an inner-city London club - according to the club over 80% of season ticket holders have SE postcodes still. However, we do need to get the floating fans going more regularly, the Wembley day-trippers, the one big game a season mob and yes, the new people moving into the swanky parts of Southwark.
Tricky balance to strike though.
Perhaps I'm just getting old & more grumpy, but I go nowadays & sometimes get the right hump with some of the people there. Little wallies who shout a lot of rubbish trying to play the hard man, modern fans who sit there in silence, ask to sit in the right seat, shoot you a look if you shout some obscenity or ask you to sit down so they can see the game, as well as the growing army of foreign tourists who flock to The Den to experience "Millwall"
Week by week it feels less like 'my' club and feel more out of place. Many others feel the same. How do you strike the balance between getting the mix right to keep everyone happy?
Feel the same about Charlton, things change so you have move on the alternative is to stop going.
You fire-bomb the police just once...and no-one forgets about it!
It's the stabbing and stoning of the horses that I dont forget. Police can have a pop back. Horses dont.
Still suppose the horses called it on.
Wasn't aware any police horse was stabbed. Thought they were injured through the hail of bricks, bottles etc aimed at those sitting on top of them.
Reminds me of a conversation I had with a boy who had thrown a brick through a library window. I asked him why he did it and he said, 'I didn't mean to. I was aiming for the security camera.'
Police horses have been stabbed at Millwall games sure I read it somewhere...wasnt necessarily referring to the play off. Apologies if wrong but sure it has happened.
Anyway I shouldnt have posted it as out of context of the thread and dont want to derail it.
Birmingham City fans stabbed a police horse at a match involving us at St Andrews in 1995.
A police horse was injured at the 'Birmingham Play-off riot' when its leg went through a car windscreen after a flare startled it.
As a passionate animal lover I was genuinely upset to hear about that. I think Millwall fans did donate some money to the people who care for retired police horses.
Getting back to the re-gen. I think it can only be a good thing for the club. Football has moved on, Millwall need to as well. I still think we will retain a certain character by virtue of being an inner-city London club - according to the club over 80% of season ticket holders have SE postcodes still. However, we do need to get the floating fans going more regularly, the Wembley day-trippers, the one big game a season mob and yes, the new people moving into the swanky parts of Southwark.
Tricky balance to strike though.
Perhaps I'm just getting old & more grumpy, but I go nowadays & sometimes get the right hump with some of the people there. Little wallies who shout a lot of rubbish trying to play the hard man, modern fans who sit there in silence, ask to sit in the right seat, shoot you a look if you shout some obscenity or ask you to sit down so they can see the game, as well as the growing army of foreign tourists who flock to The Den to experience "Millwall"
Week by week it feels less like 'my' club and feel more out of place. Many others feel the same. How do you strike the balance between getting the mix right to keep everyone happy?
My great granddad moaned when the club moved to New Cross from the 'island'.
My granddad never took to the change in colour from dark blue to royal blue.
My Uncle Bill thought that anyone that wasn't a docker was soft and should go support Palace.
My Uncle Peter misses the early 80s, when we were down to a 4,000 hardcore and The Den was the most feared ground in the country. Said it was more of a laugh.
I dislike sitting at a football match and dont care much for playing 'Let Em Come' after a goal.
My point you can always find something to moan about. They used to moan about kids being rude and disrepectful in Greek times...yet our parents would have us believe the 50/60s were a golden age of polite people...not Teddy Boys stabbing each other or Mods & Rockers ruining people's bank holidays.
We've always had little wallies hiding behind the bigger boys - was throwing a dummy grenade onto the pitch at QPR big & tough? No. But that was at a time when we had proper tough fans - in the form of the dockers.
not as daft as the Surrey Canal station though. God knows how Lewisham council are going to be able to afford that.
Lewisham Council can't..it was one of the stumbling blocks (this scheme has been in the pipelines for years)...however, the investment company have offered to put up the money for a new station.
This is the presentation video by Renewal, currently at the planning office, if anyone is interested.
Very interesting posts Bunny. It seems that the older guard at Millwall hanker after the old times, just as ours do and I am sure its true of other fans. Arsenal fans moaning about the cathedral atmosphere of the Emirates and pining wistfully for Highbury is an example.
Sad though it is, football sold itself to the financial devil many moons ago and its payback time. No club these days can ignore the middle class supporter. Getting bums on seats, and making the match day experience prolonged and an opportunity to make more money from commercial activities is now an imperative.
Take my experience as a fan going to the Valley some 45 years.
We used to travel by car, go to a pub on the way, park up as near as we could on largely parking unrestricted streets, run to the ground, pay our money at the turnstiles, stand where we want, buy a hot dog or some chestnuts. Have a scream and a shout, avoid a tear up if possible. Disappear into the ether as we left the ground, off to the pub and then home. Never went near anything resembling a club shop. I had one silk scarf that lasted me from aged 11 to aged 25 which I bought from a pitch halfway up Floyd Road.
Now, as currently I don't have a season ticket, I have to buy my ticket, often days in advance. We have seats to sit in rather than scrambling for places on the terraces. We try to get there early. If I can I park somewhere safe in a car park (as my car has been broken into near the ground). With my kids around me, its hard to avoid the club shop either before or after the game. We visit Bartrams sometimes before and always after the game, staying behind often for an hour or more. We buy hot dogs and drinks during the game. Both my children have scarves and at least two shirts each. My son has Charlton duvet covers, and my daughter has a Charlton teddy bear and a Floyd. I have various shirts, scarves, tops and other paraphernalia. Whilst my roots are working class and my families involvement with the club goes back to the 1920's, we are middle class in our outlook. We are the ideal target fans. They are all set up, Millwall included, to attract new fans with our kind of profile.
I do miss the old days, the turn up and watch days, the smell of chestnuts and roast peanuts, the East on big games, things turning pwoper nawty on occasions. Those days are gone.
You fire-bomb the police just once...and no-one forgets about it!
It's the stabbing and stoning of the horses that I dont forget. Police can have a pop back. Horses dont.
Still suppose the horses called it on.
Wasn't aware any police horse was stabbed. Thought they were injured through the hail of bricks, bottles etc aimed at those sitting on top of them.
The morons throwing the hail of bricks bottles etc were throwing at both old bill and horses unless they were to thick to realise you couldn't do one without the other. Oh hang on.
Fair play to them, I'm guessing that if the corners get filled in, increacing the capacity to 24000 they will need to use the corners for segregation purposes (well at least the two at the away end) that then would give them a capacity of around 22000 and they could then increase the away support to around 4000, making it a bit easier to get a ticket.
So they put in 2000 seats in the away end corners only to use the corners for segregation - sounds a bit of a waste of time and money to me?
Comments
The first mistake people have made is to assume that any capacity increase is a part of the re-gen. It is not. The option to increase the capacity has been in included to reassure the club/fans that the re-gen will not impact on the club's ability to expand should we need to. That is to say we will not be hemmed in by the development (see Leyton Orient).
However, interesting that people have questioned Millwall's ability to sell out the current stadium. The home seating areas have been sold out numerous times - the entire back end of our League One promotion season in 2001, and the following season's play-off push also saw a number of home area sell-outs.
Whilst it's true that our average gates do not indicate a need for a capcity increase - with an average of 10-11,000 Millwall fans filling the 14,000 home seats over the years - there is actually a need to be able to accomodate more home fans for big games. The visits of Leeds, Palace, West Ham (and Charlton) have regularly seen demand outstrip supply fairly quickly. As to have important fixtures - League One promotion games v Gillingham and Oldham saw Millwall fans in the away stand - yet there was still demand beyond the 18,000 home tickets available.
I don't think it's so silly for the club to gain assurance that should the need arise that we will be able to increase capacity to circa 24,000. Which would be about right for a Millwall playing in the Premier League, and hardly overly ambitious (imo). Nor is silly for a football club to have aspiration.
Getting back to the re-gen. I think it can only be a good thing for the club. Football has moved on, Millwall need to as well. I still think we will retain a certain character by virtue of being an inner-city London club - according to the club over 80% of season ticket holders have SE postcodes still. However, we do need to get the floating fans going more regularly, the Wembley day-trippers, the one big game a season mob and yes, the new people moving into the swanky parts of Southwark. And I believe re-vamping the area will help with that. Not as much as a successful football team of course, but every bit helps.
And I don't think being in the heart of a 6-8,000 community right on our door-step will do us any harm either. At worst they'll ignore the football team on their door-step, or maybe some will become fans / customers.
The new sport facilities might convince a few more talented youngsters to join the club too, maybe over Crystal Palace, who provide 1960s level facilities to their aspiring young footballers.
Will the club beome gentrified? I doubt it. It might become a bit more middle-class, like the rest of football, but times change. However, the plumbers, brickies, scaffolders, plasterers that make up our bread and butter support will still be there...just they might have to put up with a few more replica top wearinf soccer fans at the bar at half-time.
Besides, the housing is aimed at pretty normal people - not 'yuppies'. And how many yuppies will want to live next door to a recycling plant and football stadium? No, it's for people who simply want to live and work in our beautiful city.
On a last note...as someone who has to suffer South Bermondsey station I cant wait for the new tube stop!
Sure, they'll only be 8,500 for Hartlepool midweek - but, come the promotion party they'll be 45,000 dye-in-the-wool Lions fans wanting a ticket for Yeovil!
Perhaps I'm just getting old & more grumpy, but I go nowadays & sometimes get the right hump with some of the people there. Little wallies who shout a lot of rubbish trying to play the hard man, modern fans who sit there in silence, ask to sit in the right seat, shoot you a look if you shout some obscenity or ask you to sit down so they can see the game, as well as the growing army of foreign tourists who flock to The Den to experience "Millwall"
Week by week it feels less like 'my' club and feel more out of place. Many others feel the same. How do you strike the balance between getting the mix right to keep everyone happy?
Still suppose the horses called it on.
Anyway I shouldnt have posted it as out of context of the thread and dont want to derail it.
A police horse was injured at the 'Birmingham Play-off riot' when its leg went through a car windscreen after a flare startled it.
As a passionate animal lover I was genuinely upset to hear about that. I think Millwall fans did donate some money to the people who care for retired police horses.
Think you misundertood my point if that's aimed at me?
Or the governments way of dealing with prison overcrowding?
My granddad never took to the change in colour from dark blue to royal blue.
My Uncle Bill thought that anyone that wasn't a docker was soft and should go support Palace.
My Uncle Peter misses the early 80s, when we were down to a 4,000 hardcore and The Den was the most feared ground in the country. Said it was more of a laugh.
I dislike sitting at a football match and dont care much for playing 'Let Em Come' after a goal.
My point you can always find something to moan about. They used to moan about kids being rude and disrepectful in Greek times...yet our parents would have us believe the 50/60s were a golden age of polite people...not Teddy Boys stabbing each other or Mods & Rockers ruining people's bank holidays.
We've always had little wallies hiding behind the bigger boys - was throwing a dummy grenade onto the pitch at QPR big & tough? No. But that was at a time when we had proper tough fans - in the form of the dockers.
This is the presentation video by Renewal, currently at the planning office, if anyone is interested.
Sad though it is, football sold itself to the financial devil many moons ago and its payback time. No club these days can ignore the middle class supporter. Getting bums on seats, and making the match day experience prolonged and an opportunity to make more money from commercial activities is now an imperative.
Take my experience as a fan going to the Valley some 45 years.
We used to travel by car, go to a pub on the way, park up as near as we could on largely parking unrestricted streets, run to the ground, pay our money at the turnstiles, stand where we want, buy a hot dog or some chestnuts. Have a scream and a shout, avoid a tear up if possible. Disappear into the ether as we left the ground, off to the pub and then home. Never went near anything resembling a club shop. I had one silk scarf that lasted me from aged 11 to aged 25 which I bought from a pitch halfway up Floyd Road.
Now, as currently I don't have a season ticket, I have to buy my ticket, often days in advance. We have seats to sit in rather than scrambling for places on the terraces. We try to get there early. If I can I park somewhere safe in a car park (as my car has been broken into near the ground). With my kids around me, its hard to avoid the club shop either before or after the game. We visit Bartrams sometimes before and always after the game, staying behind often for an hour or more. We buy hot dogs and drinks during the game. Both my children have scarves and at least two shirts each. My son has Charlton duvet covers, and my daughter has a Charlton teddy bear and a Floyd. I have various shirts, scarves, tops and other paraphernalia. Whilst my roots are working class and my families involvement with the club goes back to the 1920's, we are middle class in our outlook. We are the ideal target fans. They are all set up, Millwall included, to attract new fans with our kind of profile.
I do miss the old days, the turn up and watch days, the smell of chestnuts and roast peanuts, the East on big games, things turning pwoper nawty on occasions. Those days are gone.