In terms of outstanding debt, according to @newyorkaddick excellent assessment of the 2010/11 accounts as at 30 June 2011, it included:
- £2.6m is owed by the club to Baton whilst there remains £8.5m of loans to ex-directors (including Murray), of which £7m is interest-free and repayable only upon promotion to the Premier League (the remaining aforementioned £1.5m is working capital provided by Murray, and appears to be repayable upon promotion to the Championship) - the Baton debt appears to be a form of financing of the ongoing operational deficits.
- The club still has outstanding bank loans of £6.8m, of which £1.1m is due within one year - it will be interesting to see if this tranche got paid as it came due or restructured in some way;
I doubt many of the club's suppliers are in such a strong position that they could afford to take that risk, unless the unpaid bill threatened the supplier's business existence.
Not just club suppliers is it though. What about Joe Bloggs who works in the commercial centre.Is he being paid? Look at the club job centre. They are looking to recruit more matchday hospitality staff. Strange they are looking for more people to serve food and drink that's not been paid for.
OK, here's where we are on payments/non-payments:
I have been told various stories of non-payment at various times since the close of the season. So, clearly have several other people on CL, some of whom don't normally concern themselves with the non-playing side.
When it comes to players, there is clearly a delay in making significant signings.
Now the key point is, nothing like this happened last year, and many key signings were in place by now, some as early as May, and it was acknowledged that this was a smart move.
The number of people on here who have heard and reported these stories is so large that clearly the club is leaking like a sieve in turns of 'talking out of turn'. This isn't the work of just one or two disaffected and outspoken individuals.
Now the CEO resigns (or resigns from the Board) and Michael Slater furiously denies that this is any kind of problem; leaving unclear exactly what SK's status actually is.
At the very least you have to say the smooth planned injection of funds which happened last close season, has not happened this season. And it is legitimate to ask, why not? I credit Messrs Slater and Jiminez with knowing that promotion brings with it some increased costs (mainly player wages) and resulting cash flow ebbs and flows.
Something's still up. It might still be resolved. But there is in my view no benefit in just persuading yourself that nothing's up, if -as you certainly do - you understand that the club is a business and you care about it's health because you know it affects your enjoyment of football.
Charlton are far from unique in having such problems. We are now however in a minority of clubs that has no Supporters Trust, and thats why people like you and I should support Razil's initiative. You coming to the next meet?
OK, outvoted, I shall re-think. There is no reason to think that Chris Powell will be replaced by Dennis Wise at all. My 'perhaps' was pure speculation brought about by my feeling of distress regarding everything, and I don't want to ratchet up distress in anybody else. I apologise for my unwise post.
its almost as though some fans want something bad to happen so they will have something to complain about. I'm just looking forward to the new season.
I admit the speculation is interesting to read, but at the moment it is just speculation based on something someone heard whether from a usual reliable source or not. Not criticising the person who brought this to our attention at all because as said its interesting.
Personally I'm not going to worry until i have something to worry about. Kermorgant signed a new contract recently so if things are bad they ain't that bad. We signed 2 players as well albeit low key but i got a feeling we could be pleasantly surprised by them (not speculation or heard anything just a feeling).
In terms of outstanding debt, according to @newyorkaddick excellent assessment of the 2010/11 accounts as at 30 June 2011, it included:
- £2.6m is owed by the club to Baton whilst there remains £8.5m of loans to ex-directors (including Murray), of which £7m is interest-free and repayable only upon promotion to the Premier League (the remaining aforementioned £1.5m is working capital provided by Murray, and appears to be repayable upon promotion to the Championship) - the Baton debt appears to be a form of financing of the ongoing operational deficits.
- The club still has outstanding bank loans of £6.8m, of which £1.1m is due within one year - it will be interesting to see if this tranche got paid as it came due or restructured in some way;
So are we saying that the old directors wrote off their entitlement to deferred interest as part of the Baton 2010 takeover?
Because they were certainly entitled to interest, which they deferred until we reached the championship, under the original "bond issue" as it was called.
EDIT: Ignore see my post above with link.
The "bond issue" was written off in 2010 when Baton 2010 Ltd took over the old Charlton Athletic PLC.
its almost as though some fans want something bad to happen so they will have something to complain about.
See that's the thing @madz I just don't get and it is disappointing if that is how it is coming across. A few rumours have emerged (whether people believe or not is down to the individual), but hasn't the whole instance just highlighted how fragile we remain as a collective supporter unit, and how little involvement / knowledge there is with aims and responsibilities of our club when it is in the hands of property developing / speculators who seek to remain anonymous, install w complex offshore registered structure, and run by a guy with multiple interests who refuses to engage with press or supporters ?
I'm not saying that necessarily rings alarm bells, but it does raise at the minimum nagging concerns in my head that collectively we have potentially so little insight into the either the plans or potential viability of OUR club, that's all.
Mr Slater may will deem that as ridiculous, but I wonder if he would feel different if the exact same thing was happening with his love (city) rather than one of his backers business interests ?
I apologise if I've offended. I just find it incredibly frustrating, that people without any club contacts refuse to accept that there are problems. It's all great on the pitch etc.
No doubt Pompey fans probably thought that a few years ago at Wembley.
Anyway, I've had enough for today.
unfortunately I agree with this. Some people will not believe there is a problem at this club until we are in administration which is very frustrating!! The problem is, I don't think there is much we can do about the situation as it stands anyway!!
On the other hand I imagine some might be getting frustrated because people seem convinced we are going into administration, when there is no evidence to prove so.
its almost as though some fans want something bad to happen so they will have something to complain about.
I wouldn't say that at all. While Charlton Life does have its contingent of moaning minnies, the concern is spread across a broad range of the fans here, some of whom I'd normally characterise as being pretty cautious in their responses rather than immediately jumping on the nearest "we're DOOOOOMED!!!!" bandwagon. The lack of transparency about the club's ownership means that rumours of financial issues are going to cause more worry than previously, when fans that were shareholders could see the accounts and had a pretty good idea of the position we were in.
Personally I've got more important things to be worrying about at the moment, but I'm not going to slag off my fellow fans for being naturally concerned about the future of their club. I think it would help everyone if we could avoid indulging in wild speculation (such as the Dennis Wise stuff) and over-emphasising the impact of things we've heard (eg "players not being paid" when it's actually only one player, who's not been here a full month yet). What we need are facts, even if they can't be attributed to named sources, so we can prepare ouselves for what the future is likely to hold.
In terms of outstanding debt, according to @newyorkaddick excellent assessment of the 2010/11 accounts as at 30 June 2011, it included:
- £2.6m is owed by the club to Baton whilst there remains £8.5m of loans to ex-directors (including Murray), of which £7m is interest-free and repayable only upon promotion to the Premier League (the remaining aforementioned £1.5m is working capital provided by Murray, and appears to be repayable upon promotion to the Championship) - the Baton debt appears to be a form of financing of the ongoing operational deficits.
- The club still has outstanding bank loans of £6.8m, of which £1.1m is due within one year - it will be interesting to see if this tranche got paid as it came due or restructured in some way;
Could all of our "cashflow problems" stem from the fact that we've had to repay £2.6m worth of capital due to promotion to the Championship? I suspect that we are still running the club on a deficit and, as a consequence, this would be very difficult to refinance.
In terms of outstanding debt, according to @newyorkaddick excellent assessment of the 2010/11 accounts as at 30 June 2011, it included:
- £2.6m is owed by the club to Baton whilst there remains £8.5m of loans to ex-directors (including Murray), of which £7m is interest-free and repayable only upon promotion to the Premier League (the remaining aforementioned £1.5m is working capital provided by Murray, and appears to be repayable upon promotion to the Championship) - the Baton debt appears to be a form of financing of the ongoing operational deficits.
- The club still has outstanding bank loans of £6.8m, of which £1.1m is due within one year - it will be interesting to see if this tranche got paid as it came due or restructured in some way;
Could all of our "cashflow problems" stem from the fact that we've had to repay £2.6m worth of capital due to promotion to the Championship? I suspect that we are still running the club on a deficit and, as a consequence, this would be very difficult to refinance.
As for no one trusts the Board we trusted em last year to help get CP the team he needed i cant see they have lied about ANYTHING yet.
thanks for the people that "hear" stuff and post ---wrong or right. Sometimes its dreams or horrors---but its always a read.
There has been no confirmation we are in the kak yet-------maybe we wont get that until the kick off and no further signings have occcured or its a no one from the back nowhere on a free
I don't know what to think anymore. My natural default position is to be skeptical and I guess that has coloured my view to the extent that I am at best very concerned. I have written here before that on the field the board have not put a foot wrong and the continuing solid investment in the academy flies in the face of the financial difficulty rumours. I worry that two very Charlton people in the form of Peter Varney and Steve Kavanagh have left without plausible explanation and I am not satisfied with the engagement that Charlton now have with the fans. I am fully behind those that want to find out as much as possible about whose hands our club is being held if for no other reason than to satisfy myself that CAFC is in safe hands. Is that unreasonable ? I am very loathe to critisise either Slater or JIminez because there is no evidence of any problems only rumour. My biggest worry is just why our owners or owner have gone to such extraordinary lengths to hide every single audit trail and clue to our finances. That is not completely normal business practice as far as I am aware so what are they trying to conceal. If its nothing then why the iron curtain ? Posted by a very confused but concerned supporter.
Agree totally. Never met Slater, but so far he seems honourable - charity marathons, understands football through the eyes of a fan (albeit Citeh) as well as financier, chaired major investment last summer.
Honourable? Warned about his conduct by legal watchdogs. Helps facilitate the 21 trillion dollar offshore banking industry. Registers our club in secrecy haven?
i would suggest that if people that have heard rumours tell us what those rumours are and what they think is going to happen then a lot of the 'in fighting' between the doomers and head in sanders might stop and we can then take it all seriously. Until then you'd have to just be a sheep to blindly follow one way ort the other. How many years have people been derided for passing on info and not coming up with sources etc etc - now it seems the deriders are in the same boat but have decided to blab without being able to elaborate on sources or details because its so serious. Well, if it is taht serious you have a duty to spill the beans. No half measures boys, lets hear it!
I doubt many of the club's suppliers are in such a strong position that they could afford to take that risk, unless the unpaid bill threatened the supplier's business existence.
Not just club suppliers is it though. What about Joe Bloggs who works in the commercial centre.Is he being paid? Look at the club job centre. They are looking to recruit more matchday hospitality staff. Strange they are looking for more people to serve food and drink that's not been paid for.
OK, here's where we are on payments/non-payments:
I have been told various stories of non-payment at various times since the close of the season. So, clearly have several other people on CL, some of whom don't normally concern themselves with the non-playing side.
When it comes to players, there is clearly a delay in making significant signings.
Now the key point is, nothing like this happened last year, and many key signings were in place by now, some as early as May, and it was acknowledged that this was a smart move.
The number of people on here who have heard and reported these stories is so large that clearly the club is leaking like a sieve in turns of 'talking out of turn'. This isn't the work of just one or two disaffected and outspoken individuals.
Now the CEO resigns (or resigns from the Board) and Michael Slater furiously denies that this is any kind of problem; leaving unclear exactly what SK's status actually is.
At the very least you have to say the smooth planned injection of funds which happened last close season, has not happened this season. And it is legitimate to ask, why not? I credit Messrs Slater and Jiminez with knowing that promotion brings with it some increased costs (mainly player wages) and resulting cash flow ebbs and flows.
Something's still up. It might still be resolved. But there is in my view no benefit in just persuading yourself that nothing's up, if -as you certainly do - you understand that the club is a business and you care about it's health because you know it affects your enjoyment of football.
Charlton are far from unique in having such problems. We are now however in a minority of clubs that has no Supporters Trust, and thats why people like you and I should support Razil's initiative. You coming to the next meet?
This season is a completely different situation to last though Prague. Been said many times before I know,but we were a big fish in a small pond.We are now trying to target players that are getting offers from 3 maybe 4 more lucrative clubs.On the whole,this was not the case last year. We will not pay over the odds for players and rightly so.Powell will only sign players he feels can strengthen the squad and that genuinely want to play for Charlton. A requirement that served us so well a few years back.
During a transfer window you don't want people to know if you are either minted or strapped .for obvious reasons. So you just don't make a comment either way.
I remember Karen Brady explaining how she had found football clubs to be very poorly managed when compared to other businesses. I suppose it could be argued that the old guard didn't manage the club very well and we have ourselves oft lamented numerous shortcomings eg. half time beer sales and crap food. That there is considerable scope for improvement I have no doubt. I just remain unconvinced that both PV and SK would voluntarily resign because of management issues. For me, they were both honourable, open and totally trustworthy people. The manner of their departures disturbs me a lot. Why have two extremely decent people chosen to leave the board? I really would like to know. We are now left with TJ and MS whom we know very little about and who have both both chosen to deliberately conceal their activitities. I'm sorry, I am trying not to be doomy gloomy but it all feels very very wrong.
also it clearly was only announced because it was leaked, no one trusts this Board because they are closed and guarded (prior to these shennanigans).
But maybe that's exactly why these changes are happening. When the new board took over there was very little coming out in the way of rumours from "reliable sources". This summer there has been an explosion and maybe some of these rumours have been leaked by those who now no longer feature on the board or maybe some of the mystery backers who may or may not have pulled out.
I can understand the frustration but lets be honest if it wasn't for some on here telling us what they've heard would we have a clue about anything going on? We might have questioned the lack of signings but we all knew it wasn't going to be like last summer in that respect.
My feeling in all this is some are over reacting, generally people don't like change moreover they don't like the idea of change, until change actually occurs we have no idea if it is good or bad. I can understand why this board want to keep their dealings secret, yes it isn't what we are used to but come on, it worked well last season and at the time very few complained abou not knowing what was going on at board level.
If nothing else there is a clearly communication problem.
Where is Richard Murray in all this ? A few simple words from this man would pour oil on all the troubled waters. I would hope he has more empathy with the fans than the other two so I am wondering why Muzza isn't telling us that everything will be ok.
I remember the fear and misery some on here had about losing their charlton a year ago when the new regime came in. What a load of nonsense and unless i hear what this is all about i believe all this is a load of nonsense as well. The new owners are gradually moving in and the old guard gradually moving out as far as i can see. Muzza is still there and we are in far better shape than we were 18 months or so ago from what i can see.
The old regime were transparent enough to say that Parky got the full time job because "he was the best man for the job". Not because "we were skint and we couldn't afford anyone else". Just saying.
And I'm not knocking Richard Murray because he put real money of his own into our club for reasons other than profit, without which we were toast.
My point is that RM is still regarded in the highest of esteem by all Charlton fans and him making some sort of statement would go a long way in elevating fears. I wonder why the board havn't wheeled him out to do so ? Perhaps they have tried and he won't. Just speculation of course.
I remember Karen Brady explaining how she had found football clubs to be very poorly managed when compared to other businesses. I suppose it could be argued that the old guard didn't manage the club very well ....
Accepted that they blew it big-time post-Curbs (hubris to blame I'm afraid) but the "old guard" managed the club superbly for more than a decade before that.
Comments
- £2.6m is owed by the club to Baton whilst there remains £8.5m of loans to ex-directors (including Murray), of which £7m is interest-free and repayable only upon promotion to the Premier League (the remaining aforementioned £1.5m is working capital provided by Murray, and appears to be repayable upon promotion to the Championship) - the Baton debt appears to be a form of financing of the ongoing operational deficits.
- The club still has outstanding bank loans of £6.8m, of which £1.1m is due within one year - it will be interesting to see if this tranche got paid as it came due or restructured in some way;
http://newyorkaddick.blogspot.co.uk/
I have been told various stories of non-payment at various times since the close of the season. So, clearly have several other people on CL, some of whom don't normally concern themselves with the non-playing side.
When it comes to players, there is clearly a delay in making significant signings.
Now the key point is, nothing like this happened last year, and many key signings were in place by now, some as early as May, and it was acknowledged that this was a smart move.
The number of people on here who have heard and reported these stories is so large that clearly the club is leaking like a sieve in turns of 'talking out of turn'. This isn't the work of just one or two disaffected and outspoken individuals.
Now the CEO resigns (or resigns from the Board) and Michael Slater furiously denies that this is any kind of problem; leaving unclear exactly what SK's status actually is.
At the very least you have to say the smooth planned injection of funds which happened last close season, has not happened this season. And it is legitimate to ask, why not? I credit Messrs Slater and Jiminez with knowing that promotion brings with it some increased costs (mainly player wages) and resulting cash flow ebbs and flows.
Something's still up. It might still be resolved. But there is in my view no benefit in just persuading yourself that nothing's up, if -as you certainly do - you understand that the club is a business and you care about it's health because you know it affects your enjoyment of football.
Charlton are far from unique in having such problems. We are now however in a minority of clubs that has no Supporters Trust, and thats why people like you and I should support Razil's initiative. You coming to the next meet?
There is no reason to think that Chris Powell will be replaced by Dennis Wise at all. My 'perhaps' was pure speculation brought about by my feeling of distress regarding everything, and I don't want to ratchet up distress in anybody else.
I apologise for my unwise post.
If he wasn't I doubt he'd be still 'there' either.
That's my speculation before people jump down my throat.
I admit the speculation is interesting to read, but at the moment it is just speculation based on something someone heard whether from a usual reliable source or not. Not criticising the person who brought this to our attention at all because as said its interesting.
Personally I'm not going to worry until i have something to worry about. Kermorgant signed a new contract recently so if things are bad they ain't that bad. We signed 2 players as well albeit low key but i got a feeling we could be pleasantly surprised by them (not speculation or heard anything just a feeling).
Because they were certainly entitled to interest, which they deferred until we reached the championship, under the original "bond issue" as it was called.
EDIT: Ignore see my post above with link.
The "bond issue" was written off in 2010 when Baton 2010 Ltd took over the old Charlton Athletic PLC.
A few rumours have emerged (whether people believe or not is down to the individual), but hasn't the whole instance just highlighted how fragile we remain as a collective supporter unit, and how little involvement / knowledge there is with aims and responsibilities of our club when it is in the hands of property developing / speculators who seek to remain anonymous, install w complex offshore registered structure, and run by a guy with multiple interests who refuses to engage with press or supporters ?
I'm not saying that necessarily rings alarm bells, but it does raise at the minimum nagging concerns in my head that collectively we have potentially so little insight into the either the plans or potential viability of OUR club, that's all.
Mr Slater may will deem that as ridiculous, but I wonder if he would feel different if the exact same thing was happening with his love (city) rather than one of his backers business interests ?
Personally I've got more important things to be worrying about at the moment, but I'm not going to slag off my fellow fans for being naturally concerned about the future of their club. I think it would help everyone if we could avoid indulging in wild speculation (such as the Dennis Wise stuff) and over-emphasising the impact of things we've heard (eg "players not being paid" when it's actually only one player, who's not been here a full month yet). What we need are facts, even if they can't be attributed to named sources, so we can prepare ouselves for what the future is likely to hold.
thanks for the people that "hear" stuff and post ---wrong or right. Sometimes its dreams or horrors---but its always a read.
There has been no confirmation we are in the kak yet-------maybe we wont get that until the kick off and no further signings have occcured or its a no one from the back nowhere on a free
Mmmmmm...........
Don't you think that's a touch unfair? I think a lot more information has been 'released' rather than murmurings.
We will not pay over the odds for players and rightly so.Powell will only sign players he feels can strengthen the squad and that genuinely want to play for Charlton. A requirement that served us so well a few years back.
And I'm not knocking Richard Murray because he put real money of his own into our club for reasons other than profit, without which we were toast.