OTT chants but sticks & stones and all that, it's sang for 90 minutes and everyone used to forget about it and nobody in that stand actually believes in any of it.
Spot on!
After all its only banter and as for a holocaust well thats just Guardianista propaganda
n******, n******, n******, lick my boots = Vile, nasty and racist
Sieg Hiel, Sieg Hiel = Vile, nasty and racist
Monkey chants = Vile, nasty and racist
I could go on.
Not heard them before? Count yourself lucky but know there was a time they were considered ok and the attitude was "maybe just a bit OTT but everyone does it, people get worked up at football and want to sing songs like this. Why are you making a fuss over a bit of a laugh, what are you some sort of n****** lover?"
But you don't hear them anymore because some people stop making excuses, didn't accept the feeble "they said it first" argueent and did something.
Every set of fans sing songs like this so before people start a whitch hunt for a few West ham fans don't forget Fulham last year. This part of football will never change anytime soon, people will always get worked up at football games and want to shout/sing songs like this.
"get worked up" So that makes it OK does it? It's the worst excuse in the world and it doesn't make it all right.
It can and hopefully will change anytime soon.
It just needs the Clubs to carry on giving life time bans as West Ham did today (well done them) and for other fans to stop shrugging their shoulders or making pathetic excuses like above and shout down the idiots.
We no longer hear the monkey noises and other racist chants anything like we used to and that was in part due to people saying "no, this isn't right, it's not acceptable, it's not banter, it's vile, racist and nasty and we don't want to hear it at our Club from our fans".
I never said it was acceptable behaviour did I? Banning the people is just for show, they will be at the next game just under a different name. Clubs should be fined and docked points for vile songs that are sung which would affect fans more and make others stand up and tell them to shut up.
Ignorant? Yes, Stupid? Yes, Worthy of all this attention? No.
Handful of blokes singing a song that has no relevance to 99% of people in the crowd, anyway how long before all be it smaller numbers start singing all the Hitler stuff to Spurs after this attention.
Every set of fans sing songs like this so before people start a whitch hunt for a few West ham fans don't forget Fulham last year. This part of football will never change anytime soon, people will always get worked up at football games and want to shout/sing songs like this.
"get worked up" So that makes it OK does it? It's the worst excuse in the world and it doesn't make it all right.
It can and hopefully will change anytime soon.
It just needs the Clubs to carry on giving life time bans as West Ham did today (well done them) and for other fans to stop shrugging their shoulders or making pathetic excuses like above and shout down the idiots.
We no longer hear the monkey noises and other racist chants anything like we used to and that was in part due to people saying "no, this isn't right, it's not acceptable, it's not banter, it's vile, racist and nasty and we don't want to hear it at our Club from our fans".
I never said it was acceptable behaviour did I? Banning the people is just for show, they will be at the next game just under a different name. Clubs should be fined and docked points for vile songs that are sung which would affect fans more and make others stand up and tell them to shut up.
Certainly you didn't say it wasn't and you made enough excuses for the people.
You seemed to have changed track now as before you were saying it will never change but now you want points deductions to bring about change. I think you need to think through what you are saying before you say it.
Of course banning people is for show. It's to show that it's not acceptable and won't be tolerated. And he may try to get in again next week but a few others will have second thought about joining in. And so slowly it starts to change just as it did with the monkey chants.
Nasty & vile songs/chants have been sung at football grounds for as long as I remember. Problem is, I think most fans don't see them as nasty & vile, just an excuse to give the opposition a bit of stick. Every song/chant has been taken literally & escalated into big issues since people like the Black Lawers Society jumped on the John Terry racism bandwagon. Please don't misunderstand me, I don't condone these actions & I will stop short of saying Tottenham deserve it, because these songs/chants should never be sung BUT, are the West Ham chants any worse than the homophobic chants Tottenham used to aim at Sol Campbell?? Funny how teams think it's fun to sing abusive songs/chants until they are on the receiving end!!
I haven't changed my opinion it will never change, I will be amazed when a day comes you don't hear the Munich song sung at OT or vice versa the Hillsborough one at Anfield. Racism hasn't died at football as we have seen in the past year, I hear people at most of the grounds I go to shout a racist comment out at some stage during the game.
I don't agree with rascism but I think you need to hit clubs hard by deducting points, can you imagine how pissed off West ham fans would be if they got deducted three points and that got them relegated bit better then banning John Smith and then seeing him at the next game as Leon Davis singing the same songs.
We've got a 63 comment thread of people jumping to Hamer's defence because someone said he might not be good enough, and a 108 comment thread chastising people for booing the team. I'm pretty sure if we or our players were on the receiving end of anything like the abuse at the Spurs match there would be an incredible uproar. The only way you drive this sort of stuff out of the game is if everyone stands up and says it's unacceptable, not just Spurs fans complaining and other fans dismissing it as a bit of footballing banter. Football is for football, leave the rest at the door
Threads like this show that there is still a problem trying to get rid of the nasty side of things in football in this country. Something like this happens and people are quick to scream it's the minority, it's not that bad, can't get rid of it etc.
A similar thing happens in another country and the same people are screaming for bans to be handed out, labelling all people from that country as scum etc.
The only way to truly stamp out racism, antisemitism is to have a zero tolerance on any of it no matter how small or insignificant you may think it is. The fact it is raised as an issue means it is an issue, if one person finds it unacceptable then that is one person too many.
Nasty & vile songs/chants have been sung at football grounds for as long as I remember. Problem is, I think most fans don't see them as nasty & vile, just an excuse to give the opposition a bit of stick. Every song/chant has been taken literally & escalated into big issues since people like the Black Lawers Society jumped on the John Terry racism bandwagon. Please don't misunderstand me, I don't condone these actions & I will stop short of saying Tottenham deserve it, because these songs/chants should never be sung BUT, are the West Ham chants any worse than the homophobic chants Tottenham used to aim at Sol Campbell?? Funny how teams think it's fun to sing abusive songs/chants until they are on the receiving end!!
Chrissy\\\'s Army!! said "Funny how teams think it's fun to sing abusive songs/chants until they are on the receiving end!!". (my italics)
If by 'teams', we're supposed to assume that all of us are in stitches at some of this 'banter', as long as it's our banter, it's clear that there are plenty of us here who are not exactly rolling in the aisles. For the record, "Your sister is your mother" and other hilarious songs really isn't funny, original, inspiring, clever or relevant. There are plenty of people here who really don't take a different view just because it's 'our' fans who are singing it.
It really is irrelevant that in the past there have been Spurs fans who have been equally moronic. At some point the cycle has to be broken. Nobody has to be a massive 'have a go hero' - just don't laugh & sing along (unless of course, you do find it funny, in which case you are part of the problem)
If you think using the holocaust - something with an extreme racial sensitivity when it comes to Jews - as a way to make banter or wind the oppo up for 90 mins then you're a f**king idiot. Surely there's a million other ways of doing that than referencing a human genocide?!
Chrissy\\\'s Army!! said "Funny how teams think it's fun to sing abusive songs/chants until they are on the receiving end!!". (my italics)
If by 'teams', we're supposed to assume that all of us are in stitches at some of this 'banter', as long as it's our banter, it's clear that there are plenty of us here who are not exactly rolling in the aisles. For the record, "Your sister is your mother" and other hilarious songs really isn't funny, original, inspiring, clever or relevant. There are plenty of people here who really don't take a different view just because it's 'our' fans who are singing it.
It really is irrelevant that in the past there have been Spurs fans who have been equally moronic. At some point the cycle has to be broken. Nobody has to be a massive 'have a go hero' - just don't laugh & sing along (unless of course, you do find it funny, in which case you are part of the problem)
wow!! I think you have taken what I said completely out of context. I am agreeing with you. I hate the Adams family song and didn't care much for the Danny Murphy chants either!! My point is that the same people who were offended by west ham chants on Sunday are probably the same people who used to chant stuff about Sol Campbell!!
Chrissy\\\'s Army!! said "Funny how teams think it's fun to sing abusive songs/chants until they are on the receiving end!!". (my italics)
If by 'teams', we're supposed to assume that all of us are in stitches at some of this 'banter', as long as it's our banter, it's clear that there are plenty of us here who are not exactly rolling in the aisles. For the record, "Your sister is your mother" and other hilarious songs really isn't funny, original, inspiring, clever or relevant. There are plenty of people here who really don't take a different view just because it's 'our' fans who are singing it.
It really is irrelevant that in the past there have been Spurs fans who have been equally moronic. At some point the cycle has to be broken. Nobody has to be a massive 'have a go hero' - just don't laugh & sing along (unless of course, you do find it funny, in which case you are part of the problem)
wow!! I think you have taken what I said completely out of context. I am agreeing with you. I hate the Adams family song and didn't care much for the Danny Murphy chants either!! My point is that the same people who were offended by west ham chants on Sunday are probably the same people who used to chant stuff about Sol Campbell!!
Apologies if i've misrepresented you. There's no doubt some hypocracy among Spurs fans (& others). But there will surely be plenty of offended Spurs fans who didn't like or condone all the Campbell, or Wenger stuff.
I saw Chris Houghton on the telly earlier saying words to the effect of , "there's no room for abuse of any kind whatsoever in football".
But is that right?
Sure, most of us would agree theres no place for racist, homophobic, etc abuse, but what about when we've got a prem team at home in the cup and their star striker misses a sitter in the last minute Meaning we get a replay? Is it alright or acceptable to shout abuse then? When about jeering, is that acceptable? What about laughing, or smirking?
Sure, I'm being a bit extreme there, but I think that on the whole most of us have got a decent enough moral compass to know where to draw the line.
That West Ham video above was reasonably harmless "banter" in comparison to what it could've been like. But was I the only one who noticed that the two women with their kids got off the train at the first opportunity? That can't be right, surely? As a parent I wouldn't want my missus and kids to be put in that position all in the name of "banter".
I was probably guilty of similar in the past, but I've grown up now - I hope.
What the west ham fans sang is just sick, not banter, just sick. They should be banned from matches because that crosses the line. From this issue I hope everyone agrees that signing about a genocide is wrong and disgusting. I love chants which ridicule the opposition but there's a level of right and wrong.
OTT chants but sticks & stones and all that, it's sang for 90 minutes and everyone used to forget about it and nobody in that stand actually believes in any of it.
If you start singing about us being pikies, scum, thick, simple, animals, burning us in a bonfire etc, could you be accussed on abuse & inciting violence?
If we sing about shooting robins when they bob along, will the RSPCA be on our case?
Are you seriously comparing people making references to the holocaust towards Tottenham fans and people singing about shooting Robins?
Sparrows, sometimes you make decent valid points other times you really do come across as a knuckle dragger. Unfortunately the latter occurs a lot more than the former.
It's not a comparison, it's where the line is drawn. Singing about Hitler is sick, we've all got family who were affected by the war, they sank to a new low there. & the jew hissing sound is embarrassing too.
But you can't really think all those west ham fans are signed up Nazi's who believe all jews should be killed and that they wish Hitler won the war do you?
It's some pissed up blokes being stupid for 90 minutes who will wake up the next day & feel a bit red faced about it all. Spurs fans have had it for years, just like they've dished it out for years, as have many other clubs who have sang chants that are beyond the pail.
If west ham actually had a movement that were actively looking to discriminate against Jewish people and were politically aligned with Hitler then I'd be concerned, but it's some silly blokes singing silly songs to get a reaction - and they got it.
We've had an 11 year old raped for 2 hours in Enfield Saturday and another young woman knocked out cold by a random attacker yet there are more headlines about some whelks singing songs that have been sang for years.
Whenever this sort of stuff is reported, the press always mention the large jewish support they have. Yes, I know that there's a large jewish community in the tottenham area, but do they have a larger percentage of jewish fans than Arsenal or chelsea?
My home town (Gravesend) has a larger than average Indian population but that doesn't suggest most of Ebbsfleet supporters are indian (very few in fact). So why assume that the majority of spurs fans are jewish?
Maybe someone with knowledge in this can enlighten me.
Okay, the rest of you can go back to your shouting at each other now.............................
TF: West Ham have more Jewish supporters (& board members) than THFC do, apparently. Think it was a small-ish minority at WHL on Sunday "singing" these (IMO) obscene "songs". Hopefully these tw*ts will be identified and banned.
Whenever this sort of stuff is reported, the press always mention the large jewish support they have. Yes, I know that there's a large jewish community in the tottenham area, but do they have a larger percentage of jewish fans than Arsenal or chelsea?
My home town (Gravesend) has a larger than average Indian population but that doesn't suggest most of Ebbsfleet supporters are indian (very few in fact). So why assume that the majority of spurs fans are jewish?
Maybe someone with knowledge in this can enlighten me.
Okay, the rest of you can go back to your shouting at each other now.............................
Well they do refer to themselves as Yids/The Yid Army, so whether or not they are in fact Jewish they are at the very least identifying/associating themselves with Jews, for better or worse.
OTT chants but sticks & stones and all that, it's sang for 90 minutes and everyone used to forget about it and nobody in that stand actually believes in any of it.
If you start singing about us being pikies, scum, thick, simple, animals, burning us in a bonfire etc, could you be accussed on abuse & inciting violence?
If we sing about shooting robins when they bob along, will the RSPCA be on our case?
Are you seriously comparing people making references to the holocaust towards Tottenham fans and people singing about shooting Robins?
Sparrows, sometimes you make decent valid points other times you really do come across as a knuckle dragger. Unfortunately the latter occurs a lot more than the former.
It's not a comparison, it's where the line is drawn. Singing about Hitler is sick, we've all got family who were affected by the war, they sank to a new low there. & the jew hissing sound is embarrassing too.
But you can't really think all those west ham fans are signed up Nazi's who believe all jews should be killed and that they wish Hitler won the war do you?
It's some pissed up blokes being stupid for 90 minutes who will wake up the next day & feel a bit red faced about it all. Spurs fans have had it for years, just like they've dished it out for years, as have many other clubs who have sang chants that are beyond the pail.
If west ham actually had a movement that were actively looking to discriminate against Jewish people and were politically aligned with Hitler then I'd be concerned, but it's some silly blokes singing silly songs to get a reaction - and they got it.
We've had an 11 year old raped for 2 hours in Enfield Saturday and another young woman knocked out cold by a random attacker yet there are more headlines about some whelks singing songs that have been sang for years.
No I don't think all those singing are part of some neo Nazi group however you can't just call it being silly. It's a bit like if some white fans racially abuse a black player then afterwards say, I'm not racist I'm only like that at football.
Sorry but it doesn't work like that. Yes we all get excitable and passionate at football sometimes and some of us go a bit over the top but for most that means swearing a bit more not being racist or anti semitic.
And for the record I agree that this isn't as big a deal as what happened to that poor young girl in Edmonton however I think it says more about our media and perhaps the culture in our country at the moment that the papers jump all over the West Ham fans here rather than reporting in greater depth on more serious issues.
I wasnt at the game on Sunday but have got plenty of mates who were there and three of them that I've spoken to since Sunday all agreed it was nothing more than what we would usually hear but of course, because of the current media interest, it's all been blown out of proportion. One of them said it was quite mild compared to what Leeds were singing a few years back at WHL in the FA Cup. All 5,000 of them were hissing at us and singing Nazi stuff as the Police herded them down the Tottenham High Road to Seven Sisters tube.
There's abuse and there's abuse that crosses the line. The stuff on Sunday crossed the line. As does the stuff that was aimed at Campbell and Wenger in the past...
What really irks me is that football in general has no genuine will to do anything about the problem. It would be very easy IMHO for the footballing authorities to lay down a marker and say from now on this kind of foul and nasty chanting is not going to be tolerated and when it can be confirmed as having taken place then it will have serious implications for both the fans that are responsible and the club. Wipe the slate clean but as from next season the sanctions are eg. Any fan found to be guilty will be prosecuted and banned from all football matches for life. Any club where this happens will be docked points. First offence 10, second 20, third 30. Lets then see how seriously fans and more so clubs take this problem. Will it happen. Not in a hundred million years.
SHG, while I agree with you that football authorities are lacking in will power to sort these issues out, docking points for crowd behavior is unlikely to ever happen and could be open to abuse.
For example: A team is on the brink of relegation, so a few of their fans go to games of their near rivals and sing abusive songs, getting them docked points and saving their team. It's improbable, but not inconceivable.
Comments
quite a few singing jimmy savile songs saturday and quite a few more thought it was funny
Sieg Hiel, Sieg Hiel = Vile, nasty and racist
Monkey chants = Vile, nasty and racist
I could go on.
Not heard them before? Count yourself lucky but know there was a time they were considered ok and the attitude was "maybe just a bit OTT but everyone does it, people get worked up at football and want to sing songs like this. Why are you making a fuss over a bit of a laugh, what are you some sort of n****** lover?"
But you don't hear them anymore because some people stop making excuses, didn't accept the feeble "they said it first" argueent and did something.
Handful of blokes singing a song that has no relevance to 99% of people in the crowd, anyway how long before all be it smaller numbers start singing all the Hitler stuff to Spurs after this attention.
You seemed to have changed track now as before you were saying it will never change but now you want points deductions to bring about change. I think you need to think through what you are saying before you say it.
Of course banning people is for show. It's to show that it's not acceptable and won't be tolerated. And he may try to get in again next week but a few others will have second thought about joining in. And so slowly it starts to change just as it did with the monkey chants.
I don't agree with rascism but I think you need to hit clubs hard by deducting points, can you imagine how pissed off West ham fans would be if they got deducted three points and that got them relegated bit better then banning John Smith and then seeing him at the next game as Leon Davis singing the same songs.
Threads like this show that there is still a problem trying to get rid of the nasty side of things in football in this country. Something like this happens and people are quick to scream it's the minority, it's not that bad, can't get rid of it etc.
A similar thing happens in another country and the same people are screaming for bans to be handed out, labelling all people from that country as scum etc.
The only way to truly stamp out racism, antisemitism is to have a zero tolerance on any of it no matter how small or insignificant you may think it is. The fact it is raised as an issue means it is an issue, if one person finds it unacceptable then that is one person too many.
If by 'teams', we're supposed to assume that all of us are in stitches at some of this 'banter', as long as it's our banter, it's clear that there are plenty of us here who are not exactly rolling in the aisles. For the record, "Your sister is your mother" and other hilarious songs really isn't funny, original, inspiring, clever or relevant. There are plenty of people here who really don't take a different view just because it's 'our' fans who are singing it.
It really is irrelevant that in the past there have been Spurs fans who have been equally moronic. At some point the cycle has to be broken. Nobody has to be a massive 'have a go hero' - just don't laugh & sing along (unless of course, you do find it funny, in which case you are part of the problem)
But is that right?
Sure, most of us would agree theres no place for racist, homophobic, etc abuse, but what about when we've got a prem team at home in the cup and their star striker misses a sitter in the last minute Meaning we get a replay? Is it alright or acceptable to shout abuse then? When about jeering, is that acceptable? What about laughing, or smirking?
Sure, I'm being a bit extreme there, but I think that on the whole most of us have got a decent enough moral compass to know where to draw the line.
That West Ham video above was reasonably harmless "banter" in comparison to what it could've been like. But was I the only one who noticed that the two women with their kids got off the train at the first opportunity? That can't be right, surely? As a parent I wouldn't want my missus and kids to be put in that position all in the name of "banter".
I was probably guilty of similar in the past, but I've grown up now - I hope.
From this issue I hope everyone agrees that signing about a genocide is wrong and disgusting.
I love chants which ridicule the opposition but there's a level of right and wrong.
The spuds fans who were singing yiddo and who let the yids out don't seem to agree it can be deemed racist to do so
This one will run and run
But you can't really think all those west ham fans are signed up Nazi's who believe all jews should be killed and that they wish Hitler won the war do you?
It's some pissed up blokes being stupid for 90 minutes who will wake up the next day & feel a bit red faced about it all. Spurs fans have had it for years, just like they've dished it out for years, as have many other clubs who have sang chants that are beyond the pail.
If west ham actually had a movement that were actively looking to discriminate against Jewish people and were politically aligned with Hitler then I'd be concerned, but it's some silly blokes singing silly songs to get a reaction - and they got it.
We've had an 11 year old raped for 2 hours in Enfield Saturday and another young woman knocked out cold by a random attacker yet there are more headlines about some whelks singing songs that have been sang for years.
Whenever this sort of stuff is reported, the press always mention the large jewish support they have. Yes, I know that there's a large jewish community in the tottenham area, but do they have a larger percentage of jewish fans than Arsenal or chelsea?
My home town (Gravesend) has a larger than average Indian population but that doesn't suggest most of Ebbsfleet supporters are indian (very few in fact). So why assume that the majority of spurs fans are jewish?
Maybe someone with knowledge in this can enlighten me.
Okay, the rest of you can go back to your shouting at each other now.............................
Think it was a small-ish minority at WHL on Sunday "singing" these (IMO) obscene "songs". Hopefully these tw*ts will be identified and banned.
Sorry but it doesn't work like that. Yes we all get excitable and passionate at football sometimes and some of us go a bit over the top but for most that means swearing a bit more not being racist or anti semitic.
And for the record I agree that this isn't as big a deal as what happened to that poor young girl in Edmonton however I think it says more about our media and perhaps the culture in our country at the moment that the papers jump all over the West Ham fans here rather than reporting in greater depth on more serious issues.
There's abuse and there's abuse that crosses the line. The stuff on Sunday crossed the line. As does the stuff that was aimed at Campbell and Wenger in the past...
For example: A team is on the brink of relegation, so a few of their fans go to games of their near rivals and sing abusive songs, getting them docked points and saving their team. It's improbable, but not inconceivable.