I think the phrase is safe standing, I can't think of anyone wanting to go back to a situation where another Hillsboro could occur. Where I believe numbers were not controlled and a fence was at the front of the stand?.
[cite]Posted By: Greenster[/cite]If anyone thinks thinks its a good idea to bring back standing please read last Sundays Observer magazine on actual accounts about Hillsborough. You won't want to go back to the dark ages !
I wouldn't have taken you as an Observer reader...
Bear in mind that Hillsborough was the result of a lot of things happening at once - poor policing in letting too many fans in/near to the ground, the authorities for not pushing kick-off back a few minutes, not having someone on hand to realise that the Leppings Lane terraces had become dangerously overcrowded but above all because several thousand homicidal scousers turned up intent on getting in regardless of whether they had a ticket or not and many of them were ticketless.
If done properly with maximum limits, proper stewarding and crush barriers etc then I don't see that there'd be a problem. But the authorities are scared that if they allowed standing and something happened then it would ignite the whole debate again and consequently they would look negligent with the "I told you so" brigade out in force, consequently it won't happen. Plus I suspect the big clubs know they can make more money from seating than from standing areas and don't want it.
[cite]Posted By: Greenster[/cite]If anyone thinks thinks its a good idea to bring back standing please read last Sundays Observer magazine on actual accounts about Hillsborough. You won't want to go back to the dark ages !
I wouldn't have taken you as an Observer reader...
Bear in mind that Hillsborough was the result of a lot of things happening at once - poor policing in letting too many fans in/near to the ground, the authorities for not pushing kick-off back a few minutes, not having someone on hand to realise that the Leppings Lane terraces had become dangerously overcrowded but above all because several thousand homicidal scousers turned up intent on getting in regardless of whether they had a ticket or not and many of them were ticketless.
If done properly with maximum limits, proper stewarding and crush barriers etc then I don't see that there'd be a problem. But the authorities are scared that if they allowed standing and something happened then it would ignite the whole debate again and consequently they would look negligent with the "I told you so" brigade out in force, consequently it won't happen. Plus I suspect the big clubs know they can make more money from seating than from standing areas and don't want it.
Spot on with everything in that post BFR although I suspect that Man U would get much more of a hearing than we would if we tried to introduce it. I'd love to see it but it ain't coming back for the reason you've stated.
"Where there's Blame - there's a Claim" and all that...
[cite]Posted By: Greenster[/cite]If anyone thinks thinks its a good idea to bring back standing please read last Sundays Observer magazine on actual accounts about Hillsborough. You won't want to go back to the dark ages !
How can you equate properly design standing areas with barriers, proper exits and limits on numbers to the "dark ages" I don't know.
Even Lord Taylor said that the deaths at Hillsborough weren't caused by standing areas but by poor design and management of badly designed terraces. BFR makes the case well above.
And when I see the Kop sit down then the "don't forget Hillsborough" mantra might hold some weight. Until then it is a red herring.
Hillsborough was more to do with having pens and a fence, removing any emergency exit when trouble occurred. The Ibrox disaster was similar, when fans tried to get back in to the ground via one of the 2 exits for a 25k stand.
I always preferred standing on the terraces, but I have seen, and experienced, enough problems to hope that seats will remain for good. I believe that sitting has something of a calming effect, but I realise that my view will not be popular with a certain element. Hillsborough of course was caused by bad policing, but with seating in place it would not have happened.
Wish people could move on from Hillsborough, it has nothing to do with this debate.
It's not even law in England, it's a directive from the secretary of state for Culture, Media and Sport, so Jeremy Hunt could if he wanted to, remove the requirement for all seaters overmight
I think it would be great to have safe standing in certain parts of football grounds. The north lower would be an ideal place for it to be at the Valley. You have to remember that it isn't terracing. You have a ticket for particular seat/standing area as we do now.
92% in support, and it's not even registering with the Government
There is a very straight forward system in place now to alert the government to issues the public want them to debate. Instead of running a survey to a limitied audience it would be much more worth-while to start a government pettion on the matter.
Whatever the outcome it would at least have to be registerd by the governement.
Fantastic news. Shame it wasn't a couple of years earlier when St Mirren were building their new ground or Hibs were constructing their new stand. As far as I'm aware the only SPL team with plans for a new ground at the moment are Aberdeen (are the Dundee teams still thinking of combining stadia ?) and that's still in the planning stage.
Imagine getting standing in behind the Broomloan !
Fantastic news. Shame it wasn't a couple of years earlier when St Mirren were building their new ground or Hibs were constructing their new stand. As far as I'm aware the only SPL team with plans for a new ground at the moment are Aberdeen (are the Dundee teams still thinking of combining stadia ?) and that's still in the planning stage.
Imagine getting standing in behind the Broomloan !
They've been talking about expanding Ibrox for years with the Bill Struth Stand being the only survivor of the current ground. Obviously it won't happen for a while but one day they could have standing on the Broomloan!
Hillsborough of course was caused by bad policing, but with seating in place it would not have happened.
In my opinion you are correct to say policing was a factor in the Hillsborough disaster, it was not however the only factor.
You are wrong to assert that had seats been in place instead of terracing the accident would not have occurred. Had seats been in place, and all other factors (policing policy / ticketing / stadium design / fencing / exits / numbers of people/ etc) remained unaltered, then the disaster would have been worse still. As you would have had the same number of people in the same amount of space, but with seats and the metalwork that supports them there as well.
Right, say the government say ok to safe standing where do we put our safe standing area? for me the north upper would be to dangerous. i would take all the seats out of the north lower and make this the area. it would be like having the old coverd end back! i think all the people who want to move down stairs to the terrace myself included would free up more than enough room for all the people with season tickets in the lower. any mac boys care to have an attempt at what the coverd end would look like with terracing in the lower??
I think if the demand is there, then we should definitely push for a safe standing area in one of the end blocks in the east/west stands towards the away fans. Its harder for the yoof to vent their spleen from the north upper when all you can make out are a few human figures, miles away in the Jimmy Seed. It would definitely make for a more 'rounded' atmosphere
Sheff Wednesday had two singing sections (behind the goal and next to the away fans) and they were singing different things at the same time, i much prefer everyone singing in unison. It would mean more banter with the away fans but most banter nowadays is so inane and tedious anyway. the NL would be the ideal place in my opinion.
If this were to happen, I couldn't see it anywhere other than the north-lower. This would leave me with a dilemma as I prefere to stand yet prefere the view up in the clouds.
Would it not be a better option to have seats in the front half of the upper and terracing in the back half? As that's pretty much what's happening at the moment, can't really see too much of a problem with it.
I enjoy standing when the oppertunity arises at away games, as I'm sure others do. But would you really want a season ticket in a standing section ? I can't help but think that the "away day experience" partly makes standing attractive, but would you really want to stand week in week in at home ?
Comments
I wouldn't have taken you as an Observer reader...
Bear in mind that Hillsborough was the result of a lot of things happening at once - poor policing in letting too many fans in/near to the ground, the authorities for not pushing kick-off back a few minutes, not having someone on hand to realise that the Leppings Lane terraces had become dangerously overcrowded but above all because several thousand homicidal scousers turned up intent on getting in regardless of whether they had a ticket or not and many of them were ticketless.
If done properly with maximum limits, proper stewarding and crush barriers etc then I don't see that there'd be a problem. But the authorities are scared that if they allowed standing and something happened then it would ignite the whole debate again and consequently they would look negligent with the "I told you so" brigade out in force, consequently it won't happen. Plus I suspect the big clubs know they can make more money from seating than from standing areas and don't want it.
Spot on with everything in that post BFR although I suspect that Man U would get much more of a hearing than we would if we tried to introduce it. I'd love to see it but it ain't coming back for the reason you've stated.
"Where there's Blame - there's a Claim" and all that...
How can you equate properly design standing areas with barriers, proper exits and limits on numbers to the "dark ages" I don't know.
Even Lord Taylor said that the deaths at Hillsborough weren't caused by standing areas but by poor design and management of badly designed terraces. BFR makes the case well above.
And when I see the Kop sit down then the "don't forget Hillsborough" mantra might hold some weight. Until then it is a red herring.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/editors-choice/2011/12/19/spl-clubs-to-pilot-safe-standing-areas-as-top-tier-consider-return-to-terracing-86908-23647064/
Hope it happens down here. No more bruised shins.
Not sure how many of the Scottish clubs could afford to implement it though!
You have to remember that it isn't terracing. You have a ticket for particular seat/standing area as we do now.
There is a very straight forward system in place now to alert the government to issues the public want them to debate. Instead of running a survey to a limitied audience it would be much more worth-while to start a government pettion on the matter.
Whatever the outcome it would at least have to be registerd by the governement.
Fantastic news. Shame it wasn't a couple of years earlier when St Mirren were building their new ground or Hibs were constructing their new stand. As far as I'm aware the only SPL team with plans for a new ground at the moment are Aberdeen (are the Dundee teams still thinking of combining stadia ?) and that's still in the planning stage.
Imagine getting standing in behind the Broomloan !
It would definitely make for a more 'rounded' atmosphere
We had two singing sections against Brentford, shame the club doesn't offer cheaper tickets on the wings of the East & West.
Would it not be a better option to have seats in the front half of the upper and terracing in the back half? As that's pretty much what's happening at the moment, can't really see too much of a problem with it.