time they went their own way, grew some cahunas for once, this is their big chance, I think they will poop their pants at the thought of the purse strings being cut. hope I am proved wrong.
But will the purse strings be cut?
I think we will end up paying, under one guise or other, regardless of how they vote!
Salmond began the evening by claiming the Tories had no right to rule over Scotland in 1979 and that only the SNP-delivered referendum could make sure that such a miscarriage of democracy would occur again.
In 1979, 916,155 Scots voted Tory in the General Election
In 2011, 902,915 Scots voted SNP in the Scottish Parliament election
I would vote Yes if I was Scottish. It's a win win scenario. If independence goes tits up, the scots can just hop over the border and move into England. Simples.
It's a shame that people on here are not discussing this seriously.
I thought Salmond was the most convincing tonight and if I were Scottish I'd probably vote yes to be frank. It seems to me that this is going to go to the wire.
Would I be correct in suggesting that the working class will generally vote 'yes' and the middle class 'no?' If so, then considering the predicted high turn-out then given the larger number of working class voting I think 'yes' will come very very close if not win.
agree that Salmond came across better tonight, it was surprising that he managed to lose the first debate with Darling tbh, who is not exactly the best person to be put up for a public debate, though I am struggling to think of a good Scottish orator.
Would I be correct in suggesting that the working class will generally vote 'yes' and the middle class 'no?' If so, then considering the predicted high turn-out then given the larger number of working class voting I think 'yes' will come very very close if not win.
From what I have read about this its actually really hard to categorize this along 'class' lines, its a really complicated political mixture.
For example, Scottish Labour, the natural home for working-class votes is backing the 'No' campaign but you have real old-style working-class activists like Jim Sillars arguing powerfully for the Yes campaign.
A lot of the left-wing in Scotland seriously distrust Salmond, although a lot of that is probably sour grapes because he won power from them, and it is hard to really pin the SNP politically in traditional terms, they are anti-Labour but oppose them from both the left and right on different issues.
The No vote will win but the issue will linger on for many years to come.
Would I be correct in suggesting that the working class will generally vote 'yes' and the middle class 'no?' If so, then considering the predicted high turn-out then given the larger number of working class voting I think 'yes' will come very very close if not win.
From what I have read about this its actually really hard to categorize this along 'class' lines, its a really complicated political mixture.
For example, Scottish Labour, the natural home for working-class votes is backing the 'No' campaign but you have real old-style working-class activists like Jim Sillars arguing powerfully for the Yes campaign.
A lot of the left-wing in Scotland seriously distrust Salmond, although a lot of that is probably sour grapes because he won power from them, and it is hard to really pin the SNP politically in traditional terms, they are anti-Labour but oppose them from both the left and right on different issues.
The No vote will win but the issue will linger on for many years to come.
This hasn't really become a left/right thing, it's a national identify issue in most ways. The Conservatives have steered clear of it for the most part, even though they're pro-Union, largely because they understand their own toxicity north of the border. I would have thought that maybe some Scottish Conservatives would have been going for a Yes vote however; Scottish deserves decent right-wing politicians that aren't burdened by the yoke of the southern party that is such a toxic brand in Scotland, and a separate right-wing or centre-right party would be healthy for correcting the imbalance in Scotland's political landscape.
Would I be correct in suggesting that the working class will generally vote 'yes' and the middle class 'no?' If so, then considering the predicted high turn-out then given the larger number of working class voting I think 'yes' will come very very close if not win.
From what I have read about this its actually really hard to categorize this along 'class' lines, its a really complicated political mixture.
For example, Scottish Labour, the natural home for working-class votes is backing the 'No' campaign but you have real old-style working-class activists like Jim Sillars arguing powerfully for the Yes campaign.
A lot of the left-wing in Scotland seriously distrust Salmond, although a lot of that is probably sour grapes because he won power from them, and it is hard to really pin the SNP politically in traditional terms, they are anti-Labour but oppose them from both the left and right on different issues.
The No vote will win but the issue will linger on for many years to come.
This hasn't really become a left/right thing, it's a national identify issue in most ways. The Conservatives have steered clear of it for the most part, even though they're pro-Union, largely because they understand their own toxicity north of the border. I would have thought that maybe some Scottish Conservatives would have been going for a Yes vote however; Scottish deserves decent right-wing politicians that aren't burdened by the yoke of the southern party that is such a toxic brand in Scotland, and a separate right-wing or centre-right party would be healthy for correcting the imbalance in Scotland's political landscape.
Yes, its a very strange debate because the camps are not easily 'boxed' into the usual categories.
Absolutely agree about the need for the Scottish Conservatives to present a compelling alternative to the SNP/Labour, but huge damage has been done to their vote in Scotland over the last 30 years and it may be too late.
The position of Scottish Labour is fascinating, you would think they'd be pro-independence but too many of them love the Westminister gravy-train and the potential to be a player in a Labour-led UK government too much to jump ship.
I have followed the polls on this but not the debate tonight... the polls have not been shifting recently and there is a theory that, like Major vs Kinnock in 1992, there will be a swing to the status quo in the last week or two.
However bombastic Salmand appears these debates and their subsequent reporting will have some impact. Two things I believe are: 1) the better together campaign should kill Salmand on currency, it is after all why the Scottish people are better together! Ten years back the Euro and copying the Celtic tiger was an option but not not so much 2) Salmand is finished if/when he loses the vote - like Farage he is a single issue nationalist with no real power or mature political philosophy - just a populist rant stating it is all someone elses fault. I simply cannot see that he has anywhere to go should the Scottish people vote in the majority to stay in the United Kingdom
I hasten to add that I am not so much in touch with the issue locally as it is a while since I was up there.
For those joking about Scotland leaving, I used to believe that they might be well served following Ireland into the Euro and running there own affairs. My view has changed with the crash of 2007-09 and looking at the issues we all face in the next half century like where the government should go, the middle east, Europe, aging population etc. London is a global City and I think it helps if it is leading the whole of the United Kingdom
As a foreigner I m a long way from this debate but I can understand why a nation would want independence and the rights/plights that come with it. Now if they would be better of on their own seems to depend on who you arr asking that question. I have the feeling that after all these years of English domination at least a part of them want to restore their own nation to a true independent state. Can sympathise with that.
I have followed the polls on this but not the debate tonight... the polls have not been shifting recently and there is a theory that, like Major vs Kinnock in 1992, there will be a swing to the status quo in the last week or two.
However bombastic Salmand appears these debates and their subsequent reporting will have some impact. Two things I believe are: 1) the better together campaign should kill Salmand on currency, it is after all why the Scottish people are better together! Ten years back the Euro and copying the Celtic tiger was an option but not not so much 2) Salmand is finished if/when he loses the vote - like Farage he is a single issue nationalist with no real power or mature political philosophy - just a populist rant stating it is all someone elses fault. I simply cannot see that he has anywhere to go should the Scottish people vote in the majority to stay in the United Kingdom
I hasten to add that I am not so much in touch with the issue locally as it is a while since I was up there.
For those joking about Scotland leaving, I used to believe that they might be well served following Ireland into the Euro and running there own affairs. My view has changed with the crash of 2007-09 and looking at the issues we all face in the next half century like where the government should go, the middle east, Europe, aging population etc. London is a global City and I think it helps if it is leading the whole of the United Kingdom
I think you underestimate Salmond/the SNP. I don't think he/they are much like Farage and UKIP. If there is a "No" vote then the argument will simply move to one regarding how far devolution should go and Salmond and the SNP will argue that they are best placed to make that argument for the Scottish people. Don't forget Salmond originally wanted a third option, known as "Devolution Max", on the ballot which would essentially give Scotland home rule within the United Kingdom which the SNP saw as the real stepping stone to independence. Westminster forced his hand and now there is a stright in or out vote, but even if it's "in" I don't think we've heard the last of him or his party.
Good article in the telegraph about this today. The wider impact on the rest of the world is to be considered. If Scotland moves away from the Uk, the knock effect could be massive. Spain and the basque region, Canada and the Quebec region. Belgium hell even places like Texas may consider splitting from the the United States. Once states see the oldest union can be split up we could see dramatic changes to the world landscape in the next 20yrs.
The further north that I travelled in Scotland, the more I came to understand the resentments felt toward their governance. In the Orkneys, the way of life is more in tune with the Scandinavian countries. I personally found their ideas of what makes a good society very appealing and can fully understand why they want to be free of the Tories. I share their sense of having been betrayed by Labour. But the 'debates' between Salmond and Darling will surely serve no purpose other than to increase the alienation that people already feel toward what passes for politics on our shores. It was a ludicrous shouting match that deserves the contempt of all of us. All it told me was that the BBC has totally lost the plot and will have done nothing to help those Scots who are still undecided on which way to vote.
Comments
I think we will end up paying, under one guise or other, regardless of how they vote!
How will all this stuff affect the price of Irn Bru?
Salmond began the evening by claiming the Tories had no right to rule over Scotland in 1979 and that only the SNP-delivered referendum could make sure that such a miscarriage of democracy would occur again.
In 1979, 916,155 Scots voted Tory in the General Election
In 2011, 902,915 Scots voted SNP in the Scottish Parliament election
I thought Salmond was the most convincing tonight and if I were Scottish I'd probably vote yes to be frank. It seems to me that this is going to go to the wire.
Darling is a boring geek.
For this question to be decided by the bombast over the geek would be truly awful.
I am with Airman Brown on this. I would be very surprised indeed if "yes" wins but................
For example, Scottish Labour, the natural home for working-class votes is backing the 'No' campaign but you have real old-style working-class activists like Jim Sillars arguing powerfully for the Yes campaign.
A lot of the left-wing in Scotland seriously distrust Salmond, although a lot of that is probably sour grapes because he won power from them, and it is hard to really pin the SNP politically in traditional terms, they are anti-Labour but oppose them from both the left and right on different issues.
The No vote will win but the issue will linger on for many years to come.
Absolutely agree about the need for the Scottish Conservatives to present a compelling alternative to the SNP/Labour, but huge damage has been done to their vote in Scotland over the last 30 years and it may be too late.
The position of Scottish Labour is fascinating, you would think they'd be pro-independence but too many of them love the Westminister gravy-train and the potential to be a player in a Labour-led UK government too much to jump ship.
However bombastic Salmand appears these debates and their subsequent reporting will have some impact. Two things I believe are:
1) the better together campaign should kill Salmand on currency, it is after all why the Scottish people are better together! Ten years back the Euro and copying the Celtic tiger was an option but not not so much
2) Salmand is finished if/when he loses the vote - like Farage he is a single issue nationalist with no real power or mature political philosophy - just a populist rant stating it is all someone elses fault. I simply cannot see that he has anywhere to go should the Scottish people vote in the majority to stay in the United Kingdom
I hasten to add that I am not so much in touch with the issue locally as it is a while since I was up there.
For those joking about Scotland leaving, I used to believe that they might be well served following Ireland into the Euro and running there own affairs. My view has changed with the crash of 2007-09 and looking at the issues we all face in the next half century like where the government should go, the middle east, Europe, aging population etc. London is a global City and I think it helps if it is leading the whole of the United Kingdom
Once states see the oldest union can be split up we could see dramatic changes to the world landscape in the next 20yrs.
I personally found their ideas of what makes a good society very appealing and can fully understand why they want to be free of the Tories. I share their sense of having been betrayed by Labour. But the 'debates' between Salmond and Darling will surely serve no purpose other than to increase the alienation that people already feel toward what passes for politics on our shores.
It was a ludicrous shouting match that deserves the contempt of all of us. All it told me was that the BBC has totally lost the plot and will have done nothing to help those Scots who are still undecided on which way to vote.