The further north that I travelled in Scotland, the more I came to understand the resentments felt toward their governance. In the Orkneys, the way of life is more in tune with the Scandinavian countries.
Well, perhaps you didn't really understand it. Many in the Highlands & Islands are distinctly (and quite rightly) worried about the hiatus during transition. Because they are only too well aware that their businesses, particularly farming, will go belly up very quickly indeed if the EU/Westminster subsidies suddenly stop arriving on their door mats, delivered by the heavily subsidised Royal Mail service via the heavily subsidised ferries and air services. The "No" vote is well up in the North East of Scotland with around two thirds support. And Orkney & Shetland is a Lib Dem heartland of course with Labour and SNP only getting 22% of the vote combined!
The further north that I travelled in Scotland, the more I came to understand the resentments felt toward their governance. In the Orkneys, the way of life is more in tune with the Scandinavian countries.
Well, perhaps you didn't really understand it. Many in the Highlands & Islands are distinctly (and quite rightly) worried about the hiatus during transition. Because they are only too well aware that their businesses, particularly farming, will go belly up very quickly indeed if the EU/Westminster subsidies suddenly stop arriving on their door mats, delivered by the heavily subsidised Royal Mail service via the heavily subsidised ferries and air services. The "No" vote is well up in the North East of Scotland with around two thirds support. And Orkney & Shetland is a Lib Dem heartland of course with Labour and SNP only getting 22% of the vote combined!
Isn't there some sort of saying from the Scottish islands something along the lines of 'In Westminster they ignore us but in Edinburgh they hate us.'
maybe we should help them on their way to stop it lingering, perhaps a vote in England on whether they should be allowed to stay in the Union?
I haven't met anyone yet in England who wouldn't vote yes. Think everyone seems happy to let Scotland go...apart from the Scottish.
Me,
I'm a very proud supporter of the union and convinced we as a nation would be worse off apart. I understand why there will always be some resentment towards England and don't take it too seriously as its just standard big brother / little brother stuff.
I genuinely can't imagine looking back to the 2012 Olympics and not getting so excited cheering on Chris Hoy, for example.
We should all be proud of the things that make us different, but we should equally be proud of what brings us together.
I'm convinced a United Kingdom is worth maintaining, despite some natural faults, and I would have thought the vast majority of England would feel the same (no disrespect, but if i were to generalize, I don't expect football lads in their 20s - 40s to be a representative view).
The trouble with these type of votes are they are dominated by the campaigns and the campaign leaders. Darling is not a great, crowd orator, but it is ten times more easy to be tub thumping and emotive when calling for change based on the unknown.
I fear the campaign run-up style is going to make this a closer vote than I originally hoped.
The further north that I travelled in Scotland, the more I came to understand the resentments felt toward their governance. In the Orkneys, the way of life is more in tune with the Scandinavian countries.
Well, perhaps you didn't really understand it. Many in the Highlands & Islands are distinctly (and quite rightly) worried about the hiatus during transition. Because they are only too well aware that their businesses, particularly farming, will go belly up very quickly indeed if the EU/Westminster subsidies suddenly stop arriving on their door mats, delivered by the heavily subsidised Royal Mail service via the heavily subsidised ferries and air services. The "No" vote is well up in the North East of Scotland with around two thirds support. And Orkney & Shetland is a Lib Dem heartland of course with Labour and SNP only getting 22% of the vote combined!
Isn't there some sort of saying from the Scottish islands something along the lines of 'In Westminster they ignore us but in Edinburgh they hate us.'
Yep. There is a fairly established position in Orkney (and Shetland) that if Scotland becomes independent then they should seek independence from that independent Scotland - given the high proportion of oil reserves located in Orkney's waters that would be a disaster for the fledgling Scottish economy.
Following your argument through smudge, you are effectively saying England should also be kicked out of FIFA. Do you want the end of the English national team and it being replace by a British / UK team?
If Scotland votes to stay in the union they are declaring that they don't want to be considered a nation.
They should therefore be made to leave FIFA. Let's face it they won't be missed and piss ant 'nations' like Scotland devalue international football and clog up the international fixture list for proper countries.
In the new FIFA rankings they will be 27th and the mighty England will be way in front of them at.....26th.
Following your argument through smudge, you are effectively saying England should also be kicked out of FIFA. Do you want the end of the English national team and it being replace by a British / UK team?
Won't make any difference will it, the days of Mackay, Bremner, Baxter, Law to name but a few Scottish legends, are long gone so the UK team will all be English apart from Bale who is Welsh :-0
The problem is most English resentment towards the Scots seems to stem from the fact there is a bit of a sporting rivalry and one time a Scottish tennis player joked about not supporting England at a football tournament. I'm pretty sure if you asked Lancashire if Yorkshire should be divorced from the rest of England they would claim to vote yes and vice versa. The benefits of the union (and they far outweigh the costs) are not widely understood because people have a poor understanding of economics and trade systems so they base their opinions on the matter on small-minded jingoism and insular thinking.
I've haven't found many Lancastrians resentful (Manure and Leeds football rivalry aside) of their auld enemies maybe because they came out on top of the War of the Roses but Yorkshiremen (being from Gods own country) tend to resent most other clans especially those of the red rose disposition :-0
The problem is most English resentment towards the Scots seems to stem from the fact there is a bit of a sporting rivalry and one time a Scottish tennis player joked about not supporting England at a football tournament. I'm pretty sure if you asked Lancashire if Yorkshire should be divorced from the rest of England they would claim to vote yes and vice versa. The benefits of the union (and they far outweigh the costs) are not widely understood because people have a poor understanding of economics and trade systems so they base their opinions on the matter on small-minded jingoism and insular thinking.
I think the rivalry between the two nations may be somewhat deeper than that.
The problem is most English resentment towards the Scots seems to stem from the fact there is a bit of a sporting rivalry and one time a Scottish tennis player joked about not supporting England at a football tournament. I'm pretty sure if you asked Lancashire if Yorkshire should be divorced from the rest of England they would claim to vote yes and vice versa. The benefits of the union (and they far outweigh the costs) are not widely understood because people have a poor understanding of economics and trade systems so they base their opinions on the matter on small-minded jingoism and insular thinking.
I think the rivalry between the two nations may be somewhat deeper than that.
Rivalry, yes. Resentment, no. We're apparently not bad enough enemies that we share an armed forces, which might (maybe) be slightly more meaningful than the occasional sporting fixture against each other.
Good article in the telegraph about this today. The wider impact on the rest of the world is to be considered. If Scotland moves away from the Uk, the knock effect could be massive. Spain and the basque region, Canada and the Quebec region. Belgium hell even places like Texas may consider splitting from the the United States. Once states see the oldest union can be split up we could see dramatic changes to the world landscape in the next 20yrs.
I think Spain is not to be underestimated in the Scotland to the EU debate. If they are granted membership then Spain are effectively condoning independence when it so desperately keeps hold of basque and Catalan areas of the country.
Good article in the telegraph about this today. The wider impact on the rest of the world is to be considered. If Scotland moves away from the Uk, the knock effect could be massive. Spain and the basque region, Canada and the Quebec region. Belgium hell even places like Texas may consider splitting from the the United States. Once states see the oldest union can be split up we could see dramatic changes to the world landscape in the next 20yrs.
I think Spain is not to be underestimated in the Scotland to the EU debate. If they are granted membership then Spain are effectively condoning independence when it so desperately keeps hold of basque and Catalan areas of the country.
I could not for a second imagine Scotland would not be able to join the EU as an independent state, it would probably be better economically for the EU to kick out bankrupt Spain than not let the Scot's in due to their opposition !
Good article in the telegraph about this today. The wider impact on the rest of the world is to be considered. If Scotland moves away from the Uk, the knock effect could be massive. Spain and the basque region, Canada and the Quebec region. Belgium hell even places like Texas may consider splitting from the the United States. Once states see the oldest union can be split up we could see dramatic changes to the world landscape in the next 20yrs.
I think Spain is not to be underestimated in the Scotland to the EU debate. If they are granted membership then Spain are effectively condoning independence when it so desperately keeps hold of basque and Catalan areas of the country.
I could not for a second imagine Scotland would not be able to join the EU as an independent state, it would probably be better economically for the EU to kick out bankrupt Spain than not let the Scot's in due to their opposition !
But it only needs one country to veto membership and they don't get in. Some Irish guy - can't remember who - has suggested both Spain and Belgium would veto Scotland.
The nation that comes off worse in this so-called 'Union' is England. If Scotland leaving is the route to righting that wrong. I'm happy to wave them goodbye. As it goes, they'll probably vote 'No' narrowly. This will give Salmond the leverage he wants to demand 'Devo-max' Which is 'independance' in all but name. Secretly it's probably what Salmond always wanted. Control of Scottish affairs with the guarantee of England's money when it all goes wrong. Either way, the democratic defecit affecting England must be addressed.
I hope that the sweaty's all vote Yes & then the moaning f***kers can then all leave England and settle back in cold Jocko land. After 6 months they'll wonder why the voted to go it alone, seeing as they will have no money, food or living.
I have followed the polls on this but not the debate tonight... the polls have not been shifting recently and there is a theory that, like Major vs Kinnock in 1992, there will be a swing to the status quo in the last week or two.
However bombastic Salmand appears these debates and their subsequent reporting will have some impact. Two things I believe are: 1) the better together campaign should kill Salmand on currency, it is after all why the Scottish people are better together! Ten years back the Euro and copying the Celtic tiger was an option but not not so much 2) Salmand is finished if/when he loses the vote - like Farage he is a single issue nationalist with no real power or mature political philosophy - just a populist rant stating it is all someone elses fault. I simply cannot see that he has anywhere to go should the Scottish people vote in the majority to stay in the United Kingdom
I hasten to add that I am not so much in touch with the issue locally as it is a while since I was up there.
For those joking about Scotland leaving, I used to believe that they might be well served following Ireland into the Euro and running there own affairs. My view has changed with the crash of 2007-09 and looking at the issues we all face in the next half century like where the government should go, the middle east, Europe, aging population etc. London is a global City and I think it helps if it is leading the whole of the United Kingdom
I think you underestimate Salmond/the SNP. I don't think he/they are much like Farage and UKIP. If there is a "No" vote then the argument will simply move to one regarding how far devolution should go and Salmond and the SNP will argue that they are best placed to make that argument for the Scottish people. Don't forget Salmond originally wanted a third option, known as "Devolution Max", on the ballot which would essentially give Scotland home rule within the United Kingdom which the SNP saw as the real stepping stone to independence. Westminster forced his hand and now there is a stright in or out vote, but even if it's "in" I don't think we've heard the last of him or his party.
I make you right. Politicians as adroit as Salmond will not be risking it all on a victory.
The pro union parties have already promised more power for a devolved Scotland although they differ on the detail.
There is very little in practical terms different between Devolution Max and Independence whilst keeping the Queen and the currency. Indeed the logic of full Devo/Max produces a costly two tier system where Scottish MPs continue to vote on overall UK economic strategies, foreign policy and importantly all the UK laws that only apply in practice in England. I can see Salmond biding his time and then influencing the English to want Scotland away. Despite what has been written by some on here, I don't currently believe that the majority of the rest of UK wants Scotland out. I can see that changing.
If Scotland is not part of the UK and not allowed in the Euro. Does that mean they would need work Visas to work in England? I can think of a few scots I would like to deport
I love Scotland, a cool and beautiful country. It will be interesting to what degree the vote is hearts, or minds. As for the 'crash', and the comment above regarding Ireland. Looking from the outside it is as if the Irish have shrugged, said 'it (the 'boom') was all too good to be true anyway', and basically put up with the crap and shown a remarkable lack of whinging, and a remarkable resilience in climbing a long way back.
Any body remember this chap: (don't play out loud at work)
I hope that the sweaty's all vote Yes & then the moaning f***kers can then all leave England and settle back in cold Jocko land. After 6 months they'll wonder why the voted to go it alone, seeing as they will have no money, food or living.
Good riddance I say.
Must take alot of effort to clearly hate another nation, can I ask why?
I hope that the sweaty's all vote Yes & then the moaning f***kers can then all leave England and settle back in cold Jocko land. After 6 months they'll wonder why the voted to go it alone, seeing as they will have no money, food or living.
Good riddance I say.
Must take alot of effort to clearly hate another nation, can I ask why?
I reckon Golfie has never broken 100 on any golf courses up there :-0
I hope that the sweaty's all vote Yes & then the moaning f***kers can then all leave England and settle back in cold Jocko land. After 6 months they'll wonder why the voted to go it alone, seeing as they will have no money, food or living.
Good riddance I say.
Must take alot of effort to clearly hate another nation, can I ask why?
Don't feed the trolls mate, it's fairly easy to make an educated guess on their feelings regarding a broad range of subjects and then deduce that they are incapable of a reasoned debate on issues such as these because they are beyond their comprehension.
I hope that the sweaty's all vote Yes & then the moaning f***kers can then all leave England and settle back in cold Jocko land. After 6 months they'll wonder why the voted to go it alone, seeing as they will have no money, food or living.
Good riddance I say.
Must take alot of effort to clearly hate another nation, can I ask why?
Don't feed the trolls mate, it's fairly easy to make an educated guess on their feelings regarding a broad range of subjects and then deduce that they are incapable of a reasoned debate on issues such as these because they are beyond their comprehension.
I make you right mate.
I really wasn't going to look at this thread as I knew there would be embarrassing anti-Scottish elements going on. But thankfully it has been over powered by actual thought, decent debate and rational opinion.
My parents moved to England 30 years ago to start a family etc. They have never moaned or been bitter about living here, infact they have done very well, worked bloody hard and are thankful that both me and my sister have managed to have a good life which we may not have had if they had stayed up in Scotland. Yes they are proud of being Scottish and rightfully so, why wouldn't they be.
I have no other family in England, so is always interesting to see what my other family members think. It appears most of them fancy Scotland should be voting No for both reasons of 'all as one' or 'too much of an unknown/gamble'. As many have said independence is a nice idea, but it has to be practical, which I don't think it is.
If the Scots sod off, what will we do when we need a war fighting? There's always been a ready stream of Scottish nutcases to send in to take on the locals when we need to wipe someone out, and it seems to me that the SAS is pretty much entirely made up of small, wiry Scotsmen and chinless ponces.
Comments
Many in the Highlands & Islands are distinctly (and quite rightly) worried about the hiatus during transition. Because they are only too well aware that their businesses, particularly farming, will go belly up very quickly indeed if the EU/Westminster subsidies suddenly stop arriving on their door mats, delivered by the heavily subsidised Royal Mail service via the heavily subsidised ferries and air services.
The "No" vote is well up in the North East of Scotland with around two thirds support. And Orkney & Shetland is a Lib Dem heartland of course with Labour and SNP only getting 22% of the vote combined!
I'm a very proud supporter of the union and convinced we as a nation would be worse off apart. I understand why there will always be some resentment towards England and don't take it too seriously as its just standard big brother / little brother stuff.
I genuinely can't imagine looking back to the 2012 Olympics and not getting so excited cheering on Chris Hoy, for example.
We should all be proud of the things that make us different, but we should equally be proud of what brings us together.
I'm convinced a United Kingdom is worth maintaining, despite some natural faults, and I would have thought the vast majority of England would feel the same (no disrespect, but if i were to generalize, I don't expect football lads in their 20s - 40s to be a representative view).
The trouble with these type of votes are they are dominated by the campaigns and the campaign leaders. Darling is not a great, crowd orator, but it is ten times more easy to be tub thumping and emotive when calling for change based on the unknown.
I fear the campaign run-up style is going to make this a closer vote than I originally hoped.
Following your argument through smudge, you are effectively saying England should also be kicked out of FIFA. Do you want the end of the English national team and it being replace by a British / UK team?
As it goes, they'll probably vote 'No' narrowly. This will give Salmond the leverage he wants to demand 'Devo-max' Which is 'independance' in all but name. Secretly it's probably what Salmond always wanted. Control of Scottish affairs with the guarantee of England's money when it all goes wrong.
Either way, the democratic defecit affecting England must be addressed.
Good riddance I say.
The pro union parties have already promised more power for a devolved Scotland although they differ on the detail.
There is very little in practical terms different between Devolution Max and Independence whilst keeping the Queen and the currency. Indeed the logic of full Devo/Max produces a costly two tier system where Scottish MPs continue to vote on overall UK economic strategies, foreign policy and importantly all the UK laws that only apply in practice in England. I can see Salmond biding his time and then influencing the English to want Scotland away. Despite what has been written by some on here, I don't currently believe that the majority of the rest of UK wants Scotland out. I can see that changing.
As for the 'crash', and the comment above regarding Ireland. Looking from the outside it is as if the Irish have shrugged, said 'it (the 'boom') was all too good to be true anyway', and basically put up with the crap and shown a remarkable lack of whinging, and a remarkable resilience in climbing a long way back.
Any body remember this chap: (don't play out loud at work)
I really wasn't going to look at this thread as I knew there would be embarrassing anti-Scottish elements going on. But thankfully it has been over powered by actual thought, decent debate and rational opinion.
My parents moved to England 30 years ago to start a family etc. They have never moaned or been bitter about living here, infact they have done very well, worked bloody hard and are thankful that both me and my sister have managed to have a good life which we may not have had if they had stayed up in Scotland. Yes they are proud of being Scottish and rightfully so, why wouldn't they be.
I have no other family in England, so is always interesting to see what my other family members think. It appears most of them fancy Scotland should be voting No for both reasons of 'all as one' or 'too much of an unknown/gamble'. As many have said independence is a nice idea, but it has to be practical, which I don't think it is.