The territory of Ukraine was a battlefield during the World War II, and its population, including Russians, significantly decreased. The infrastructure was heavily damaged and it required human and capital resources to be rebuilt. This compounded with depopulation caused by two famines of 1931–1932 and a third in 1947 to leave the territory with a greatly reduced population. A large portion of the wave of new migrants to industrialize, integrate and Sovietize the recently acquired western Ukrainian territories were ethnic Russians who mostly settled around industrial centers and military garrisons.This increased the proportion of the Russian speaking population.
Near the end of the War, the entire population of Crimean Tatars (numbering up to a quarter of a million) was expelled from their homeland in Crimea to Central Asia, under accusations of collaborations with Germans. The Crimea was repopulated by the new wave of Russian and Ukrainian settlers and the Russian proportion of the population of Crimea went up significantly (from 47.7% in 1937 to 61.6% in 1993)and the Ukrainian proportion doubled (12.8% in 1937 and 23.6% in 1993).
The Ukrainian language remained a mandatory subject of study in all Russian schools, but in many government offices preference was given to the Russian language that gave an additional impetus to the advancement of Russification. The 1979 census showed that only one third of ethnic Russians spoke the Ukrainian language fluently.
In 1954, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR issued the decree on the transfer of the Crimean Oblast from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR. This action increased the ethnic Russian population of Ukraine by almost a million people. Many Russian politicians considered the transfer to be controversial. Controversies and legality of the transfer remained a sore point in relations between Ukraine and Russia for a few years, and in particular in the internal politics in Crimea. However, in a 1997 treaty between the Russian Federation and Ukraine, Russia recognized Ukraine's borders, and accepted Ukraine's sovereignty over Crimea.
The last bit is laughable really, because Putin again is doing what he likes even though it's illegal.
Russians have been the largest ethnic minority in Latvia for the last two centuries. The number of Russians in Latvia increased significantly during the Soviet occupation of Latvia when the size of the community grew from 10.5% of the total population in 1935 (206,499) to 34.0% in 1989 (905,515). It started to decrease in size again after Latvia re-gained independence in 1991 falling to 26.9% (557,119) in 2011.
I'm sat in Donetsk watching love feeds of some very brave people in the centre of Moscow telling the world what they think of Putin. Last night we were fully expecting to see Russian tanks on Monday, now I have no idea what to think, we could be seeing the start of an uprising in Russia
I meant to post these before, the entrance to the Dynamo Kiev stadium a few weeks ago comlete with barricades that are still being manned 24 hours. Makes going to Millwall look like a walk in the park
The rest of the city centre still looks like a war zone too but these seemed like the most relevant pics for a footy forum
Just watched it too. Shocking scenes. Think that Putin has orchestrated the situation brilliantly over the last months. Seems that Russia has got its way in those areas with ethnic Russian people. Think the Government in Kiev would be wise to accept defeat now.
Just watched it too. Shocking scenes. Think that Putin has orchestrated the situation brilliantly over the last months. Seems that Russia has got its way in those areas with ethnic Russian people. Think the Government in Kiev would be wise to accept defeat now.
But by doing that it just signals the right for Russia to take more of Ukranian soil, okay the Crimea might have been Russian a long time ago but eastern Ukraine has never been Russian, all this will do is make other ethnic Russian people in other ex Sov countries possibly 'try it on'
It's all bad, Ukraine need to toughen up and send in troops, let see if Russia then react by invading, call their bluff.
Just watched it too. Shocking scenes. Think that Putin has orchestrated the situation brilliantly over the last months. Seems that Russia has got its way in those areas with ethnic Russian people. Think the Government in Kiev would be wise to accept defeat now.
But by doing that it just signals the right for Russia to take more of Ukranian soil, okay the Crimea might have been Russian a long time ago but eastern Ukraine has never been Russian, all this will do is make other ethnic Russian people in other ex Sov countries possibly 'try it on'
It's all bad, Ukraine need to toughen up and send in troops, let see if Russia then react by invading, call their bluff.
I'm struggling with this. If the bulk of the population in an area want self determination for who governs them then I think there is a case for viewing that sympathetically.
My wholehearted support of the Falkland Islanders right to remain British is based on the concept of self determination for the people affected regardless of proximity or lines on a map.
Just watched it too. Shocking scenes. Think that Putin has orchestrated the situation brilliantly over the last months. Seems that Russia has got its way in those areas with ethnic Russian people. Think the Government in Kiev would be wise to accept defeat now.
But by doing that it just signals the right for Russia to take more of Ukranian soil, okay the Crimea might have been Russian a long time ago but eastern Ukraine has never been Russian, all this will do is make other ethnic Russian people in other ex Sov countries possibly 'try it on'
It's all bad, Ukraine need to toughen up and send in troops, let see if Russia then react by invading, call their bluff.
I'm struggling with this. If the bulk of the population in an area want self determination for who governs them then I think there is a case for viewing that sympathetically.
My wholehearted support of the Falkland Islanders right to remain British is based on the concept of self determination for the people affected regardless of proximity or lines on a map.
Is it definitely what the "bulk of the population" want though ? Or is it just what a few thousand nutters paid up by Putin want ?
Been meaning to post a link to this film, called The Other Chelsea. A very good insight into the thinking there, with football woven into it. 88 minutes, well worth your time if you are on this thread.
But by doing that it just signals the right for Russia to take more of Ukranian soil, okay the Crimea might have been Russian a long time ago but eastern Ukraine has never been Russian, all this will do is make other ethnic Russian people in other ex Sov countries possibly 'try it on'
It's all bad, Ukraine need to toughen up and send in troops, let see if Russia then react by invading, call their bluff.
Kharkiv and Donetsk were both originally part of the Russian empire
No real surprise that things have kicked off today, the mayday parades were always likely to lead to some sort of trouble
Just watched it too. Shocking scenes. Think that Putin has orchestrated the situation brilliantly over the last months. Seems that Russia has got its way in those areas with ethnic Russian people. Think the Government in Kiev would be wise to accept defeat now.
But by doing that it just signals the right for Russia to take more of Ukranian soil, okay the Crimea might have been Russian a long time ago but eastern Ukraine has never been Russian, all this will do is make other ethnic Russian people in other ex Sov countries possibly 'try it on'
It's all bad, Ukraine need to toughen up and send in troops, let see if Russia then react by invading, call their bluff.
I'm struggling with this. If the bulk of the population in an area want self determination for who governs them then I think there is a case for viewing that sympathetically.
My wholehearted support of the Falkland Islanders right to remain British is based on the concept of self determination for the people affected regardless of proximity or lines on a map.
It's not the bulk though, it's parts of Eastern Ukraine that has Russian settlers from the soviet era. Mainly cities and towns.
You can't just have people riot and claim that just because the Russians invaded Crimea and seemingly looked powersful that they have the right because most are Russian to break away when it was never Russian land in the first place,(Edit) apparently it was, my bad but it was nearly a century ago that it was part of the russian empire, therefore not even up for debate unlike Crimea. It's like Nazi Germany if it happens, there will still be Ukrainians living amongst them in the east as well.
If this does happen it will make it much worse, I'd be amazed if it did as well.
Not sure why you started relating Falklands with this either, nothing like it.
India and Malaysia (amongst many others) were part of the British Empire. Does that make it OK to re-colonise them? As has been mentioned above - it is the will of the people - but how is this judged? Tibet being a better example. Chinese have shipped in tens of thousands....how would they vote in a 'free and democratic' election. Fat chance of that happening anyway!
Okay Rina, I stand to be corrected about Donetsk etc, didn't know it was part of the russian empire am I right in thinking this land ceased 97 years ago though?
Okay Rina, I stand to be corrected about Donetsk etc, didn't know it was part of the russian empire am I right in thinking this land ceased 97 years ago though?
that sounds about right, I think it would've moved directly from being in the empire to being in the soviet union which was formed near the end of WWI. the area has only been part of an independent Ukraine for just over 20 years
Really no idea anymore. Pretty much everything that's been shown on the news from Donetsk over the last month or so is from a very localised area, in fact it looks to all be on the same street. The rest of the city is pretty much unaffected apart from a few traffic diversions and some of my favourite restaurants being closed.
So it is pretty well contained at the moment, more so than the news would have you believe. However it will take very little for it to escalate rapidly and this isn't like the London riots, it's a country where life isn't valued as highly as in the west and people are more willing to both take life for a cause and to sacrifice their own
The impression I get at the moment is that people (the general populace, not the demonstrators) don't want the russians in but tbh they're not overly bothered either way. However if things start to get bad they may welcome them and Putin knows this
Someone should've popped off papa Putin years ago the jumped up little Russian secret service asrsehole needs a bullet In his swede
All eu countries should be posting soldiers In the Ukraine with every bomb facing Russian landmarks and say go on then Putin
Either back up and F off or let's just get it out the way with you weird marching starch filled hat and trouser army bstds
If he does this and takes Ukraine then the eu stands for nothing and we are all at risk
How many Russians living in a country does it take to feel that if they want to be governed by Russia not the government of the country in which they reside before Putin sends over a little bit squad
Plenty of Czechs will be happy to hear that from a Brit. People here are very nervous, and wondering if their EU membership - and more importantly their NATO membership - counts for anything.
2 Ukrainian army choppers shot down today but they took back a load of rebel checkpoints. Looks like the next couple of days may decide which way this all goes
This has nothing to do with anything other than money. Putin wants to keep his own little corrupt fiefdom going, and knows that he has to pop his collar every now and then. Once this all blows over (and it will get much worse before it does), his pals in the gas industry will have made their point - that he can cut the gas off whenever he likes - and will pocket a tidy profit as they ramp up prices. Meanwhile, the poor sods in the Crimea will be annexed out to the Russkies, the Ukrainians will be nervous for the next ten years and NATO won't have done a thing about it because, basically, it can't.
Slotting Putin wouldn't have made any difference - it's not him who controls Russia, it's the oligarchs. They'd have just put another puppet in power - and whos to say they wouldn't have been much worse? At least the fact that money controls Russia reins them in a little bit - otherwise they could start flattening entire countries to flex their muscle instead of having spats like this.
This will not end well for lots of Ukrainians - but will be even worse for the people of the Crimea.
Thanks for your posting Prague and particularly Rina who is close to the events in Ukraine. Its not easy reading the 'true' situation in Ukraine as our news coverage does tend to focus on dramatic events rather than the overall picture. It would be interesting to know the views of those living and working in Eastern Ukraine. The sooner elections are held throughout Ukraine the better for legitimacy for the government and the country.
2 Ukrainian army choppers shot down today but they took back a load of rebel checkpoints. Looks like the next couple of days may decide which way this all goes
And more then 30 killed when a Trade Union building was set alight in odessa, on the verge of civil war with major Russian interference.
2 Ukrainian army choppers shot down today but they took back a load of rebel checkpoints. Looks like the next couple of days may decide which way this all goes
And more then 30 killed when a Trade Union building was set alight in odessa, on the verge of civil war with major Russian interference.
With surface to air missiles - which all suggests that Russian troops are already in Eastern Ukraine despite Putin saying that they are not. We need to stop messing with Putin, a universal freeze of the assets of all overseas assets held by the Russian Government and all its known supporters (e.g Abramovich, the owner of Bournemouth) would be a good start.
2 Ukrainian army choppers shot down today but they took back a load of rebel checkpoints. Looks like the next couple of days may decide which way this all goes
And more then 30 killed when a Trade Union building was set alight in odessa, on the verge of civil war with major Russian interference.
With surface to air missiles - which all suggests that Russian troops are already in Eastern Ukraine despite Putin saying that they are not. We need to stop messing with Putin, a universal freeze of the assets of all overseas assets held by the Russian Government and all its known supporters (e.g Abramovich, the owner of Bournemouth) would be a good start.
Swiftly followed by Putin turning off the gas to Western Europe. Not even remotely possible.
Comments
Near the end of the War, the entire population of Crimean Tatars (numbering up to a quarter of a million) was expelled from their homeland in Crimea to Central Asia, under accusations of collaborations with Germans. The Crimea was repopulated by the new wave of Russian and Ukrainian settlers and the Russian proportion of the population of Crimea went up significantly (from 47.7% in 1937 to 61.6% in 1993)and the Ukrainian proportion doubled (12.8% in 1937 and 23.6% in 1993).
The Ukrainian language remained a mandatory subject of study in all Russian schools, but in many government offices preference was given to the Russian language that gave an additional impetus to the advancement of Russification. The 1979 census showed that only one third of ethnic Russians spoke the Ukrainian language fluently.
In 1954, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR issued the decree on the transfer of the Crimean Oblast from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR. This action increased the ethnic Russian population of Ukraine by almost a million people. Many Russian politicians considered the transfer to be controversial. Controversies and legality of the transfer remained a sore point in relations between Ukraine and Russia for a few years, and in particular in the internal politics in Crimea. However, in a 1997 treaty between the Russian Federation and Ukraine, Russia recognized Ukraine's borders, and accepted Ukraine's sovereignty over Crimea.
The last bit is laughable really, because Putin again is doing what he likes even though it's illegal.
Russians have been the largest ethnic minority in Latvia for the last two centuries. The number of Russians in Latvia increased significantly during the Soviet occupation of Latvia when the size of the community grew from 10.5% of the total population in 1935 (206,499) to 34.0% in 1989 (905,515). It started to decrease in size again after Latvia re-gained independence in 1991 falling to 26.9% (557,119) in 2011.
The rest of the city centre still looks like a war zone too but these seemed like the most relevant pics for a footy forum
Anyone just seen the stuff on the news?
Mental riot police attacked, herded up, stripped of their weapons then made to file out through a walk of shame whilst the crowd try and beat them.
This is gonna get a lot worse before it gets better
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27244821
It's all bad, Ukraine need to toughen up and send in troops, let see if Russia then react by invading, call their bluff.
My wholehearted support of the Falkland Islanders right to remain British is based on the concept of self determination for the people affected regardless of proximity or lines on a map.
No real surprise that things have kicked off today, the mayday parades were always likely to lead to some sort of trouble
How do you think it is going to pan out?
You can't just have people riot and claim that just because the Russians invaded Crimea and seemingly looked powersful that they have the right because most are Russian to break away when it was never Russian land in the first place,(Edit) apparently it was, my bad but it was nearly a century ago that it was part of the russian empire, therefore not even up for debate unlike Crimea. It's like Nazi Germany if it happens, there will still be Ukrainians living amongst them in the east as well.
If this does happen it will make it much worse, I'd be amazed if it did as well.
Not sure why you started relating Falklands with this either, nothing like it.
Does that make it OK to re-colonise them?
As has been mentioned above - it is the will of the people - but how is this judged?
Tibet being a better example. Chinese have shipped in tens of thousands....how would they vote in a 'free and democratic' election. Fat chance of that happening anyway!
Really no idea anymore. Pretty much everything that's been shown on the news from Donetsk over the last month or so is from a very localised area, in fact it looks to all be on the same street. The rest of the city is pretty much unaffected apart from a few traffic diversions and some of my favourite restaurants being closed.
So it is pretty well contained at the moment, more so than the news would have you believe. However it will take very little for it to escalate rapidly and this isn't like the London riots, it's a country where life isn't valued as highly as in the west and people are more willing to both take life for a cause and to sacrifice their own
The impression I get at the moment is that people (the general populace, not the demonstrators) don't want the russians in but tbh they're not overly bothered either way. However if things start to get bad they may welcome them and Putin knows this
All eu countries should be posting soldiers In the Ukraine with every bomb facing Russian landmarks and say go on then Putin
Either back up and F off or let's just get it out the way with you weird marching starch filled hat and trouser army bstds
If he does this and takes Ukraine then the eu stands for nothing and we are all at risk
How many Russians living in a country does it take to feel that if they want to be governed by Russia not the government of the country in which they reside before Putin sends over a little bit squad
Good luck Chatham
Plenty of Czechs will be happy to hear that from a Brit. People here are very nervous, and wondering if their EU membership - and more importantly their NATO membership - counts for anything.
Slotting Putin wouldn't have made any difference - it's not him who controls Russia, it's the oligarchs. They'd have just put another puppet in power - and whos to say they wouldn't have been much worse? At least the fact that money controls Russia reins them in a little bit - otherwise they could start flattening entire countries to flex their muscle instead of having spats like this.
This will not end well for lots of Ukrainians - but will be even worse for the people of the Crimea.
Its not easy reading the 'true' situation in Ukraine as our news coverage does tend to focus on dramatic events rather than the overall picture.
It would be interesting to know the views of those living and working in Eastern Ukraine.
The sooner elections are held throughout Ukraine the better for legitimacy for the government and the country.
Please keep posting Rina.