Yesterday was incredibly depressing. A terrible tragedy for the Ukrainian people and a frightening declaration of Cold War with very sobering implications for future peace and immediate prosperity.
I was however heartened at the protests in Russia but some brave people
I can't imagine how brave you would need to be to go out on the street to protest a war in Russia. The time for strong sanctions against Russian criminal investment in the UK (for instance in the London property market) was a long long time ago, but hopefully the impact on Putin's friends of the sanctions now being imposed across Europe and the US will be such that they will depose him sooner rather than later. And by depose I mean assassinate.
Only the Russian people can get rid of Putin.
This is the most important thing to remember. Anyone who thinks you can oust dictators and replace them with democracies from the outside, needs to to look at what happened Libya and Iraq. No-one in their right mind wanted Gaddafi or Saddam controlling those countries, but ousting them caused awful messes that will take decades to recover from.
Crazy thing is I could see someone like Putin being happy for the world to end with him.
I think he views himself as some sort of mythical man, a historical figure, like many dictators before him.
Many of these dictators have waged war against people, and only been stopped with force, this from my memory is the first one of those men who have had nuclear weapons.
Imagine if Hitler had nuclear bombs, what would we have done when he went into Poland? What would he have done when the Russians were rolling into Germany?
Human civilisation has had many people who are evil as rulers, but now we live in a period where for the first time, one evil person could potentially push a button to end the whole world.
A terrifying Pandora's box.
For all the things we might say about our leaders, the idea of someone like Putin having that power is genuinely terrifying.
He's 70 now, and knows if he's going to go with some massive gamble (who knows how big that gamble is), he has to do it now. His legacy.
Crazy thing is I could see someone like Putin being happy for the world to end with him.
I think he views himself as some sort of mythical man, a historical figure, like many dictators before him.
Many of these dictators have waged war against people, and only been stopped with force, this from my memory is the first one of those men who have had nuclear weapons.
Imagine if Hitler had nuclear bombs, what would we have done when he went into Poland? What would he have done when the Russians were rolling into Germany?
Human civilisation has had many people who are evil as rulers, but now we live in a period where for the first time, one evil person could potentially push a button to end the whole world.
A terrifying Pandora's box.
For all the things we might say about our leaders, the idea of someone like Putin having that power is genuinely terrifying.
He's 70 now, and knows if he's going to go with some massive gamble (who knows how big that gamble is), he has to do it now. His legacy.
I think that’s plausible but I’d imagine that there would be a lot of his top people who wouldn’t be quite so keen to go up in smoke.
Crazy thing is I could see someone like Putin being happy for the world to end with him.
I think he views himself as some sort of mythical man, a historical figure, like many dictators before him.
Many of these dictators have waged war against people, and only been stopped with force, this from my memory is the first one of those men who have had nuclear weapons.
Imagine if Hitler had nuclear bombs, what would we have done when he went into Poland? What would he have done when the Russians were rolling into Germany?
Human civilisation has had many people who are evil as rulers, but now we live in a period where for the first time, one evil person could potentially push a button to end the whole world.
A terrifying Pandora's box.
For all the things we might say about our leaders, the idea of someone like Putin having that power is genuinely terrifying.
He's 70 now, and knows if he's going to go with some massive gamble (who knows how big that gamble is), he has to do it now. His legacy.
I think that’s plausible but I’d imagine that there would be a lot of his top people who wouldn’t be quite so keen to go up in smoke.
Are there people who can stop him? I'm not saying there aren't, I have no idea what the structure is over there.
Crazy thing is I could see someone like Putin being happy for the world to end with him.
I think he views himself as some sort of mythical man, a historical figure, like many dictators before him.
Many of these dictators have waged war against people, and only been stopped with force, this from my memory is the first one of those men who have had nuclear weapons.
Imagine if Hitler had nuclear bombs, what would we have done when he went into Poland? What would he have done when the Russians were rolling into Germany?
Human civilisation has had many people who are evil as rulers, but now we live in a period where for the first time, one evil person could potentially push a button to end the whole world.
A terrifying Pandora's box.
For all the things we might say about our leaders, the idea of someone like Putin having that power is genuinely terrifying.
He's 70 now, and knows if he's going to go with some massive gamble (who knows how big that gamble is), he has to do it now. His legacy.
I think that’s plausible but I’d imagine that there would be a lot of his top people who wouldn’t be quite so keen to go up in smoke.
Are there people who can stop him? I'm not saying there aren't, I have no idea what the structure is over there.
There will be people high in the military who would have the wherewithal
such a tricky one to call which way this is going to go. The east and west of Ukraine are like completely different countries; different ethnic makeups, different language and a different outlook on life.
I've lived on both sides of the country and despite having a pretty good idea of how the 2 sides think really have little idea what's going to happen
I'd expect that the Crimea will end up Russian but tbh that would be no real change anyway. The majority in the region are ethnic russians anyway, they have their own parliament already and it's the only region of the country where russian is the official language
It's not been Ukrainian for that long and it's simple enough to operate as a russian oblast in the same way as Kaliningrad is
The east of the country is going to be more interesting, despite being pro russian they are also fiercely patriotic, as are the pro europe west and I think that patriotism may see the bulk of the country stay together but I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see a split
I'm off to Donetsk some time in the next couple of weeks which should be interesting, will get a much better idea of what's going on when I get there
Kruschev handed the Crimea back to Ukraine in 1956. They were both stillpart of the Soviet Union.
This should defo be on the HoC page. It’s not the subject matter it’s that the high emotions rub off onto other threads and it’s easily avoidable.
For mental health reasons too. This forum is always great light relief and respite from the grimness of the real world. Bit of escapism and forum to have empassioned debates about things that really don't matter in the bigger scheme of things like dodgy left backs, ticket fiascos and pot holes in car parks. Past 2 years coming on here seeing the Covid thread at the top daily has been miserable enough and whilst it may have helped in parts more oft than not it was inherently pessimistic such is the nature of the subject.
Was relieved to not see this topic on the main page having not being able to escape from the news all day with the tv screens above desk at work and not sure it is any good for morale or mental health. Having it on the HoC means those who want to discuss it and read about it all day can but others who want to block it out of our minds for a bit can do so.
It's a horrific and terrifying series of events but very little we can do and not sure how having it constantly at the forefront of everyones' minds when reading here is going to help anything or do anything of good.
Maybe I am calling it wrong but just an observation having seen the covid thread for past 2 plus years.
If reports are to be believed there might be a ceasefire and peace talks being arranged 🤞
That would be unbelievably brilliant.
Most likely because it’s not going according to plan for the Russians. They were hoping to have a bigger stronghold on them by now, but haven’t had as bigger military success as they were planning.
I see the BBC are saying China has abstained from the UNSC vote. It was said earlier that if this happened, it was a huge signal to Russia that China didn’t agree with their invasion
"Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, has given a speech in which he warns that Russia is paying "special attention" to Kyiv tonight, and forces will try to "storm" the capital.
He said: "This night will be harder than the day.
"Many cities of our state are under attack - Chernihiv, Sumy, Kharkiv, our girls, our boys in the Donbas, the cities of southern Ukraine.
"Special attention is paid to Kyiv. You can't lose the capital… This night the enemy will use all its forces to break our resistance - vile, cruel and inhuman. Tonight they will storm it."
Mr Zelenskyy says he has spoken to the leaders of France, the Netherlands, Germany, the US, and the EU today, telling them what Ukraine expects from the West, and thanking them.
He goes on: "We have to persevere tonight. The fate of Ukraine is being decided right now.
"Every civilian should be as careful as possible, please help each other, especially the elderly, those who are currently in great difficulty.
"In case of any danger, go to the shelter.
"Anyone who has already joined the defence of the country or can help the defence - stop the enemy wherever you can, close the special signs that saboteurs leave on the roads and buildings.
"Burn enemy vehicles with everything you can.
"If even kindergartens are an acceptable goal for the invaders, you should not leave them any chance.
"All thoughts, all prayers of Ukrainians - with our military.
"We believe in them, take care of them. Defend our state.
"The night will be hard, very hard. But it will be the morning!""
Scary stuff. I’m respectfully going to close this thread now, I think what @RodneyCharltonTrotta and @ValleyGary say above is probably right. Let’s try and keep the main forum a bit lighter, and everyone who is interesting in joining or following the debate can do so on the threads that are running in the Houee of Commoners section. Cheers all.
Comments
He is mad and doesn’t give a shit, rules his country by fear and with a rod of iron.
Imagine a powerful mafia leader but with nuclear weapons.
Will turn out very bad for everyone and will only end when he is removed/ taken out.
I think he views himself as some sort of mythical man, a historical figure, like many dictators before him.
Many of these dictators have waged war against people, and only been stopped with force, this from my memory is the first one of those men who have had nuclear weapons.
Imagine if Hitler had nuclear bombs, what would we have done when he went into Poland? What would he have done when the Russians were rolling into Germany?
Human civilisation has had many people who are evil as rulers, but now we live in a period where for the first time, one evil person could potentially push a button to end the whole world.
A terrifying Pandora's box.
For all the things we might say about our leaders, the idea of someone like Putin having that power is genuinely terrifying.
He's 70 now, and knows if he's going to go with some massive gamble (who knows how big that gamble is), he has to do it now. His legacy.
My world is currently upside down.
Was relieved to not see this topic on the main page having not being able to escape from the news all day with the tv screens above desk at work and not sure it is any good for morale or mental health. Having it on the HoC means those who want to discuss it and read about it all day can but others who want to block it out of our minds for a bit can do so.
It's a horrific and terrifying series of events but very little we can do and not sure how having it constantly at the forefront of everyones' minds when reading here is going to help anything or do anything of good.
Maybe I am calling it wrong but just an observation having seen the covid thread for past 2 plus years.
Putin is a complete dick.
Tonight is an important night you'd feel. Russia will give a big push to take the capital after being held back more than they expected.
If they are not able to tonight, they will have heavy losses and have to think about a different strategy.
Hopefully this doesn't end like Grozny did (i.e. Levelled to the ground because Russia couldn't take it).
"Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, has given a speech in which he warns that Russia is paying "special attention" to Kyiv tonight, and forces will try to "storm" the capital.
He said: "This night will be harder than the day.
"Many cities of our state are under attack - Chernihiv, Sumy, Kharkiv, our girls, our boys in the Donbas, the cities of southern Ukraine.
"Special attention is paid to Kyiv. You can't lose the capital… This night the enemy will use all its forces to break our resistance - vile, cruel and inhuman. Tonight they will storm it."
Mr Zelenskyy says he has spoken to the leaders of France, the Netherlands, Germany, the US, and the EU today, telling them what Ukraine expects from the West, and thanking them.
He goes on: "We have to persevere tonight. The fate of Ukraine is being decided right now.
"Every civilian should be as careful as possible, please help each other, especially the elderly, those who are currently in great difficulty.
"In case of any danger, go to the shelter.
"Anyone who has already joined the defence of the country or can help the defence - stop the enemy wherever you can, close the special signs that saboteurs leave on the roads and buildings.
"Burn enemy vehicles with everything you can.
"If even kindergartens are an acceptable goal for the invaders, you should not leave them any chance.
"All thoughts, all prayers of Ukrainians - with our military.
"We believe in them, take care of them. Defend our state.
"The night will be hard, very hard. But it will be the morning!""