Labour are pro Europe. The conservatives are pro Europe. The only reason that Cameron has offered an in / out referendum is to try to cut off a drift of anti Europe Tory voters towards UKIP. That has patently failed. I cannot see the "party of big business" overseeing an exit from Europe against the wishes of the multi nationals. I just don't see it happening yet they are committed to it.
I can see a concerted effort by the EU to provide Cameron with a victory in reforming the EU so that he can bring that to the table in an attempt to side step the need for a referendum the problem is the time scale before the general election.
The 3 "mainstream" parties' share of the vote was 56.2% in aggregate. On a 33.8% turnout that means that fewer than 1 in 5 of the electorate (18.99% to be precise) voted for the 3 "mainstream" parties COMBINED. What a shower.
Yes – but what you have to decide is whether that figure (and the overall turnout of 34.19%) is mainly a judgement on those ‘3 "mainstream" parties' or a reflection of people’s apathy to elections for a ‘parliament’ that doesn’t elect or appoint the EU’s ‘government’ (the EU Commission and ultimately the Council of Ministers) and doesn’t even have the power to propose legislation…
The 3 "mainstream" parties' share of the vote was 56.2% in aggregate. On a 33.8% turnout that means that fewer than 1 in 5 of the electorate (18.99% to be precise) voted for the 3 "mainstream" parties COMBINED. What a shower.
Yes – but what you have to decide is whether that figure (and the overall turnout of 34.19%) is mainly a judgement on those ‘3 "mainstream" parties' or a reflection of people’s apathy to elections for a ‘parliament’ that doesn’t elect or appoint the EU’s ‘government’ (the EU Commission and ultimately the Council of Ministers) and doesn’t even have the power to propose legislation…
Apologies if this has already come up but I wasn't going to read the whole thread. I have virtually no interest in politics for many reasons but I've become midly interested in UKIP because of how much it's getting mentioned and how riled people seem to be about the party. Can someone just explain what's wrong with UKIP? I don't mean "what's wrong with them, I think they're brilliant", I mean I can't find much information on them beyond generalisations, sarcasm and political speak. Could someone enlighten me? Maybe just even bullet points would be good. Cheers.
The election last night has actually proved a promising future. Not only UKIP have won it but you have other Eurosceptic groups throughout Europe picking up seats and that will certainly be a start of slowly towards the end of the EU which can only be a good thing.
an exit from Europe against the wishes of the multi nationals
Really? I'd have thought it was less than relevant, especially to the transatlantic ones, and even grounds for greater unregulated activity. Any evidence gratefully received.
an exit from Europe against the wishes of the multi nationals
Really? I'd have thought it was less than relevant, especially to the transatlantic ones, and even grounds for greater unregulated activity. Any evidence gratefully received.
It's the tariff free access to to the european market - important for the likes of Japanese, Chinese, US and other multi-nationals. However, the interests of big banks and city finance companies is probably a different matter - I think they prefer the UK's 'light touch' regulation to the EU's......
The mainstream parties and more importantly their think tanks in this country (and the rest of Europe) have had five years since the 2007-09 crash to devise a way forwards for both their economies and the majority of people in each of the European states. I have read with great interest the comments on this thread and these plus the results in UK, France Germany etc suggest that the centre left and centre right have a long way to go to communicating a vision... Make no mistake UKIP are the equivalent of the front nationale with no solutions and a simple blame strategy on the EU and immigration. This is good for scoring 25% of the vote in a 40% turn-out - no more, no less. One upside is that is should engender a sense of urgency and provide a stark backdrop for the mainstream to paint a negative view of this isolationist extreme and at the same time a positive vision.
Labour are pro Europe. The conservatives are pro Europe. The only reason that Cameron has offered an in / out referendum is to try to cut off a drift of anti Europe Tory voters towards UKIP. That has patently failed. I cannot see the "party of big business" overseeing an exit from Europe against the wishes of the multi nationals. I just don't see it happening yet they are committed to it.
I can see a concerted effort by the EU to provide Cameron with a victory in reforming the EU so that he can bring that to the table in an attempt to side step the need for a referendum the problem is the time scale before the general election.
Interesting times.
The EU and the major economies (UK, Germany, France, Spain and Italy) simply have to speed up reform and delivery else these emerging "democratic" forces will rip up the post WWII consensus upon which everything is built.
One simple policy that could unite people around the potential of Europe is to accelerate the work of the OECD on transfer pricing and vat avoidance. Stop Luxembourg under cutting vat at 3% and/or determine that the web transactions with multi-nationals occur in our living rooms on our laptops and NOT in some office in another low tax country. We need spending in this country for jobs and tax revenues. I don't know the basis for the graphic higher up but I am certain that tax avoidance far outweighs benefit fraud.
And get the economy working on building houses (with builders of any nationality) and pay for it by reducing housing benefit which is simply a subsidy to landlords... Personally I wouldn't go as far as the Green solution posted higher up the thread but there needs to be a sensible debate - as opposed to bank supported mortgages up to £650K to support a London pre-election boom. I could go on but I don't know all the answers nor how to present them. Basically the central parties have to think up solutions for this century AND sell them to the people, motivating people to both understand the big choices and to get out and vote.
The parallels with Charlton are there for all to see - we need to embrace the new AND answer questions posed by the people. We need the academy of new prospects and ideas to flourish. And we need to celebrate the Curbishley factor which kept us at the top table rather than throw it out because its not exciting enough or other solutions like Dowie/UKIP look more interesting.
NLA below bangs on about jobs, training and futures for those who want it. And about respect for those who have contributed to our nation. I would add that immigration has contributed massively to our ideas, culture and wealth. Europe is a big thriving exciting place - it's easy to miss that and believe the propaganda - fortunately we have the Web and access to real numbers and political philosophy. And we all know people who work or perhaps own holiday homes abroad or simply take holidays.
With all three parties now saying tougher lines on immigration Ukip seem to have rattled cages and made people see that the policy of the old labour government has caused people to cast a protest vote
But surely there is more to change than just tightening the controls on the borders
But who the hell is there to vote for that will actually change the whole way this country has gone
We treat our elderly our ex service personel our disabled and needy in a way that is disrespectful and disgusting
We allow our health service and benefits service paid for by those hardworking folk be abused by people who have never contributed to the system ever
We allow our schools to have English as a second language
We don't have enough schools for our children
We don't have enough OB firemen drs or nurses or beds to put the sick in
We have cut our defences to a point where we are weak
And not one party offers any resolution to any of the above yet they will always stay in power
It's a real shame that no one is out there that will fix all of the above
I would suggest that the mainstream party which comes closest to answering the above and other basic concerns in a way where the numbers add up to a sustainable economy will be the party which increases its vote the most in 2015.
Most of our exports go to the EU. Business is not all that keen to see that market suddenly more difficult to move in. Not impossible but more difficult. Difficulty increases costs. Increase in costs means being less competitive. Less competitive means fewer sales. Less sales means less profit or worse.
The election last night has actually proved a promising future. Not only UKIP have won it but you have other Eurosceptic groups throughout Europe picking up seats and that will certainly be a start of slowly towards the end of the EU which can only be a good thing.
200 Eurosceptic wins out of 740 results declared so far.
Without wanting to get in to the whole for/against arguments, the EU parliament isn't massively expensive, it costs less to run than derby county council for example.
Hoiking the whole thing from Strasbourg to Brussels and back every couple of weeks isn't expensive? Paying the expenses of MPs coming from Riga to Brussels is cheaper than getting from Heanor to Derby? Can you explain please Andy?
Turnout is irrelevant. Who is to say if turnout was 60% results would be any different?
UKIP done well as a single issue party and this election was regarding their single issue. They did not win a single council in the uk elections this week, they just got some councilors. Come the general election I predict will have same number of MPs as they have now.
This , to me, proves why it is important to use your vote. Extremists always vote. It's good to shake things op now and again but I hope we dont live to regret that election.
Without wanting to get in to the whole for/against arguments, the EU parliament isn't massively expensive, it costs less to run than derby county council for example.
Hoiking the whole thing from Strasbourg to Brussels and back every couple of weeks isn't expensive? Paying the expenses of MPs coming from Riga to Brussels is cheaper than getting from Heanor to Derby? Can you explain please Andy?
Derby Council (not sure if City or County is being discussed) actually does things other than run a parliament. If the European Parliament fixed the roads, collected the rubbish, ran local services, set up local tourism events etc, it would be a lot more expensive to run.
The election last night has actually proved a promising future. Not only UKIP have won it but you have other Eurosceptic groups throughout Europe picking up seats and that will certainly be a start of slowly towards the end of the EU which can only be a good thing.
200 Eurosceptic wins out of 740 results declared so far.
The election last night has actually proved a promising future. Not only UKIP have won it but you have other Eurosceptic groups throughout Europe picking up seats and that will certainly be a start of slowly towards the end of the EU which can only be a good thing.
200 Eurosceptic wins out of 740 results declared so far.
Which is more than the 2009 European election....
Yes! A lot more because we've had a crash, mass unemployment in some countries and no clear explanations / plans/solutions for what's next. The 540 who are pro Europe had better start answering some questions before it moves to 60:40 split!
Just read page 6 which was my first read fron when last read, so aint boverred with 7,8,9 but AA saying the recovery was underway under Labour and has been stagnaited under Conservative is the biggest load of Bollocks I have ever read on CL. I can understand people voting ukip in local elections, but if Tory voters have done this as a protest vote but fine, but if they do this in the general election you will give Labour the biggest shoein of their lives.Don't do something you will regret.
Just read page 6 which was my first read fron when last read, so aint boverred with 7,8,9 but AA saying the recovery was underway under Labour and has been stagnaited under Conservative is the biggest load of Bollocks I have ever read on CL. I can understand people voting ukip in local elections, but if Tory voters have done this as a protest vote but fine, but if they do this in the general election you will give Labour the biggest shoein of their lives.Don't do something you will regret.
It's the only reason Dave has committed to an in / out referendum. Trying to stem the flow if euro skeptic Tories to UKIP. Not worked yet though has it.
Turnout was lower in this election than in 2009 in about 18 countries (by about 2% on average), including in the UK. It was up in about 5 and the rest are undeclared as yet.
There's no way that a third of the votes cast in 2014 comes anywhere near 100% of the votes cast in 2009.
If it was true, it would mean more than twice as many people voted for pro-European parties in 2014 as voted at all in 2009, which would also be a ridiculous claim.
Comments
I can see a concerted effort by the EU to provide Cameron with a victory in reforming the EU so that he can bring that to the table in an attempt to side step the need for a referendum the problem is the time scale before the general election.
Interesting times.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/aboutparliament/en/0081f4b3c7/Law-making-procedures-in-detail.html
I have read with great interest the comments on this thread and these plus the results in UK, France Germany etc suggest that the centre left and centre right have a long way to go to communicating a vision...
Make no mistake UKIP are the equivalent of the front nationale with no solutions and a simple blame strategy on the EU and immigration. This is good for scoring 25% of the vote in a 40% turn-out - no more, no less.
One upside is that is should engender a sense of urgency and provide a stark backdrop for the mainstream to paint a negative view of this isolationist extreme and at the same time a positive vision. The EU and the major economies (UK, Germany, France, Spain and Italy) simply have to speed up reform and delivery else these emerging "democratic" forces will rip up the post WWII consensus upon which everything is built.
One simple policy that could unite people around the potential of Europe is to accelerate the work of the OECD on transfer pricing and vat avoidance. Stop Luxembourg under cutting vat at 3% and/or determine that the web transactions with multi-nationals occur in our living rooms on our laptops and NOT in some office in another low tax country. We need spending in this country for jobs and tax revenues. I don't know the basis for the graphic higher up but I am certain that tax avoidance far outweighs benefit fraud.
And get the economy working on building houses (with builders of any nationality) and pay for it by reducing housing benefit which is simply a subsidy to landlords... Personally I wouldn't go as far as the Green solution posted higher up the thread but there needs to be a sensible debate - as opposed to bank supported mortgages up to £650K to support a London pre-election boom. I could go on but I don't know all the answers nor how to present them. Basically the central parties have to think up solutions for this century AND sell them to the people, motivating people to both understand the big choices and to get out and vote.
The parallels with Charlton are there for all to see - we need to embrace the new AND answer questions posed by the people. We need the academy of new prospects and ideas to flourish. And we need to celebrate the Curbishley factor which kept us at the top table rather than throw it out because its not exciting enough or other solutions like Dowie/UKIP look more interesting.
NLA below bangs on about jobs, training and futures for those who want it. And about respect for those who have contributed to our nation. I would add that immigration has contributed massively to our ideas, culture and wealth. Europe is a big thriving exciting place - it's easy to miss that and believe the propaganda - fortunately we have the Web and access to real numbers and political philosophy. And we all know people who work or perhaps own holiday homes abroad or simply take holidays. I would suggest that the mainstream party which comes closest to answering the above and other basic concerns in a way where the numbers add up to a sustainable economy will be the party which increases its vote the most in 2015.
Farage will be gutted.
Yet again 0 coverage for the 4th biggest party in the country.
UKIP done well as a single issue party and this election was regarding their single issue. They did not win a single council in the uk elections this week, they just got some councilors. Come the general election I predict will have same number of MPs as they have now.
It's good to shake things op now and again but I hope we dont live to regret that election.
The 540 who are pro Europe had better start answering some questions before it moves to 60:40 split!
I reckon the union has had it's time
Everything needs to go through change else it dies - simples
To be honest I don't believe any of them will have the balls to offer one
Can you imagine if the country said poke it I want out
The process to get it done would proberly take 50 yrs
It takes 5 yrs to build an extra lane on the m25 FFs
There's no way that a third of the votes cast in 2014 comes anywhere near 100% of the votes cast in 2009.
If it was true, it would mean more than twice as many people voted for pro-European parties in 2014 as voted at all in 2009, which would also be a ridiculous claim.