But then again, to quote Mr Carlin, "What's the point in praying if it's already all been decided in God's 'Divine Plan?' What's the point of being a Supreme Being with a 'Divine Plan' if it can get screwed up by any schmuck with a $2 Prayer Book?"
Sometimes I really wish that people such as the guy you're quoting would either read the bible, ask questions, simply state why they don't believe or not say anything. How can you pull something apart and make arguments against it if you don't know about it? How can you argue against the theology of Christianity or any faith if you haven't read the book and understood it's context? Anyone who has read the bible will know of examples when God has heard the cries of his people and responded. For example, Hannah desperately pleaded and wrestled with God for him to bless her with a child and God responded. The Bible is clear about the power of prayer to change circumstances within his will. He says he longs to give us the desires of our hearts.
I have a GSCE in Religious Education (Catholic). In general, there is an argument to back up / justify any position you like in the Bible if you selectively quote. That involves good and bad actions.
Religion can be individually helpful and provides a sense of community. It is belief and opinion. Ultimately it is a matter of faith that cannot be proven one or other.
With all due respect to Addick in SW16.
There is some truth in that. What is important is the context. Knowing why and when a passage was written and having a background of the particular scripture.
I though the bible was "the word"? Am I missing the contemporary "help notes", or the "Making of" video somewhere along the line that no one has told me about? A bible "idiots guide" that was written at the time perhaps?
Oh dear. All I was saying is that a bible verse in isolation can be taken out of context and manipulated as with any text. To know the full meaning of the text it is important to know it's context. Usually just knowing the full body of a particular passage to know what a particular verse is saying.
I will ignore the "Oh dear", in the spirit of this debate.
You mention three aspects of biblical study: Why, when and background.
The why is about control, though I am fully aware you do not interpret it like that.
The when is at least three generations after the supposed events according to you; the vast majority written much, much later and to suit the politics of the time. By the fact that you failed to answer my question about Paul's letter to the Corinthians, I take it as read that it is in fact hearsay, and that original text - and indeed others like it - do not actually exist.
The background is entirely open to debate, "biblical scholars" interpretations of the events in the main - it is clear from your writings that as well as the bible you have read at least some of this work and have formed an opinion based on some of that. The truth isn't really known (other than things like yes, there was a king called Herod etc), it's just some bloke's take on the subject, often made with a hidden agenda to do with control, once again.
For hundreds of years those scholars attested that the earth was indeed 6000 years old, and the church stubbornly stood by that as a fact until scientific evidence proved it wrong (unless you are a mid-west bible belt creation nutter...). You are right, it does not say it in the bible, but the church stated it as fact nonetheless. Had you been studying your scholars pre-Darwin, you would almost certainly have been saying exactly the same thing.
Hi there. I agree with you on some points. First of all I must have missed your comment about Paul's letters. The church gets things wrong. I don't believe anything a religious leader can tell me unless they can show me where it mentions it in the bible. The young earth thing is a perfect example. I would say to them that you cannot assert that our faith claims something unless it's in the bible.
It strikes me that when a religious "teaching" is either proved to be nonsense or sounds a bit daft then it's is not meant to be taken literally but is very handily a metaphor. The other bits that are less contentious are "the word of god"
Cake and eat it spring to mind.
I'm saying that something isn't mentioned in the bible, that is completely different.
Hello, lots of posts . I think I was making up for lost time. Whilst I think it would be great for everyone to experience the overwhelming love of God, there is something quite exhilarating about locking horns in an intense, passionate debate. I am incredibly passionate about my faith and speak out because I think people get it wrong so often whether that's through bad teaching or not having read the bible for themselves. Many of the points that have been put across are just regurgitations of common misconceptions of Christianity, bandied about by people who haven't taken the time to do their own research.
I completely understand that some people said earlier in the thread that they are angry with religion. So am I. Too many of us (believers) haven't followed the model that Jesus put in place, but we are human and imperfect. If we did, we wouldn't have to have some of the discussions that have taken place on this thread and that is a sad fact. I just ask that you look beyond those who are committing heinous acts 'in the name of allah' or 'Jesus' and whether these faiths actually teach or condone such behaviour.
Science is great and has so many answers and I embrace it but don't feel it can be seen as an alternative to faith as it has very little to offer. Whether you believe in God or not, I know literally hundreds of people who have had their lives transformed through the power of Jesus and some of them are posting on this thread. Many have peace they've never known, direction, purpose, physical and emotional healing, fulfillment and no longer feel the need to chase the latest high that will inevitably leave you empty whether it's the next relationship, job, promotion, car etc. You can go on about science until the cows come home but nothing can compare to what faith can give you.
I believe that the bible has an enormous amount to teach us in the 21st century and cannot see how anyone who has read Psalms or the Gospels for example can say otherwise. As a 19 year old I found it to be frighteningly relevant considering how old it was. Jesus spoke out against the love of money for example as it leads nowhere. Unfortunately, people are having to find this out for themselves which is fine but unnecessary as it is there in the bible in black and white. A relevant message for the 21st century? I think so.
I'm not posting regularly because I don't really see what good it's doing. I've made several good points that have been ignored. If I come up with an adequate answer to a question another one pops out with no acknowledgement at all about what faith has to offer. When this thread started, the point was made that people didn't like Christianity pushed into their faces. Well, the most in your face views that have been put across as fact, have been atheistic ones. The people who won't just accept that people believe in something and should be allowed to feel the way they do have been atheists, which I find ironic. If you're still reading my long post and want to actually have a conversation about things do PM me. I do not have all the answers and may not be able to answer all of your questions but will speak up for what I believe in.
Some are religious some are not. On here the majority are not. Does the fact that people do believe in God bother some of you that much that you have to keep finding new ways of digging or trying to change our minds?
Face facts; Some of us have faith, our faith is important to us and a huge part of our lives, whatever you say or do or whatever argument against God, the son or the bible is not going to change our minds, anymore than we can change yours. Whether you chose to believe it we have faith because Christ revealed himself to us in one way or another and we have experienced a religious moment that made us believe, I can not describe this in any way which will make any of you believe and I am not about to try.
This thread started by asking the question what is your religion? We have answered honestly and whole heartedly we have told you our faiths and we have told you what we believe, I respect the views, opinions, life choices and life styles of everyone on here and now I ask that you respect mine and the others that were brave enough to stand up as the minority on here and say they believe. Is that too much to ask?
It's been a really interesting thread and I'm going to leave it with the jolly old Voltaire quote at the end of Candide after much philosophical endeavour:
"...il faut cultiver notre jardin"
which I think suggested that whilst all spiritual and philosophical investigation is all fine and dandy, ultimately we have to get on with living our lives and dealing with the here and now. I generally subscribe to the Harry Bosch view that " Everybody counts or nobody counts". I guess we are all heading the same way and we'll all find out sooner or later. Let's hope somehow we all meet on the other side on the Charlton Afterlife message board and we have a good laugh at how little we really knew :-)
Some are religious some are not. On here the majority are not. Does the fact that people do believe in God bother some of you that much that you have to keep finding new ways of digging or trying to change our minds?
Face facts; Some of us have faith, our faith is important to us and a huge part of our lives, whatever you say or do or whatever argument against God, the son or the bible is not going to change our minds, anymore than we can change yours. Whether you chose to believe it we have faith because Christ revealed himself to us in one way or another and we have experienced a religious moment that made us believe, I can not describe this in any way which will make any of you believe and I am not about to try.
This thread started by asking the question what is your religion? We have answered honestly and whole heartedly we have told you our faiths and we have told you what we believe, I respect the views, opinions, life choices and life styles of everyone on here and now I ask that you respect mine and the others that were brave enough to stand up as the minority on here and say they believe. Is that too much to ask?
Sorry Sadie but in the context of this type of discussion a certain amount of persuasive arguments are inevitable. I do find though that in general it is "the church" that employs this tactic rather than atheists. I don't see atheist missionaries or billboards proclaiming "God is NOT Lord"
No-one expects anyone to change their belief, either in the existence of or non-existence of 'God'. As an adult, you will already have experienced enough to make you either have faith, or not.
This is the thing that really, really bothers most agnostics and atheists about religion though. I don't run around telling everybody how great it is not to believe in a religion. When I see or hear religious people doing the opposite of this, then getting the hump when their beliefs are questioned, examined and then dismissed, it irritates me. We live in a 'free', non-secular state - where everybody is allowed to worship whatever God/Deity/Prophet/Cheese Sandwich they wish. The flipaide of that religious freedom is the freedom of those who choose not to blindly believe in something to question it.
Of course, when religion is kept personal, there's no issue. It's when it is allowed to see into society as a whole that it becomes insidious. I have a big problem with allowing state aid to religious schools, for instance - a practice that is permitted pretty much nowhere else in the western world, yet has been allowed here, despite the religions which benefit from this not having to pay taxes.
Look - let's not fool ourselves here. Most people couldn't give a damn about religion. If you're religious - great. If you're not - great. The majority of debate around religion nowadays is informed by the lunatic fringe (creationists) or fanatics (fundamentalists), whether it's through trying to sneak religion into science through infiltrating schools in an attempt to get creationist bullshit taught alongside real science, or by blowing other people up because they don't share your belief system. Neither of those views represent the vast majority of religion.
A Christian once said to me, "do you know what, it might not be true, but when I approach death at least I'll know I tried to live a loving and generous life by following the teachings of the Gospel."
Although I struggle to believe in it all, I still admire that statement today, some 20 years later.
The same for me, except I change Gospel for Parents.
Some are religious some are not. On here the majority are not. Does the fact that people do believe in God bother some of you that much that you have to keep finding new ways of digging or trying to change our minds?
Face facts; Some of us have faith, our faith is important to us and a huge part of our lives, whatever you say or do or whatever argument against God, the son or the bible is not going to change our minds, anymore than we can change yours. Whether you chose to believe it we have faith because Christ revealed himself to us in one way or another and we have experienced a religious moment that made us believe, I can not describe this in any way which will make any of you believe and I am not about to try.
This thread started by asking the question what is your religion? We have answered honestly and whole heartedly we have told you our faiths and we have told you what we believe, I respect the views, opinions, life choices and life styles of everyone on here and now I ask that you respect mine and the others that were brave enough to stand up as the minority on here and say they believe. Is that too much to ask?
Sorry Sadie but in the context of this type of discussion a certain amount of persuasive arguments are inevitable. I do find though that in general it is "the church" that employs this tactic rather than atheists. I don't see atheist missionaries or billboards proclaiming "God is NOT Lord"
I'm guessing you're completely unaware of the Dawkins bus advertisements?
No-one expects anyone to change their belief, either in the existence of or non-existence of 'God'. As an adult, you will already have experienced enough to make you either have faith, or not.
This is the thing that really, really bothers most agnostics and atheists about religion though. I don't run around telling everybody how great it is not to believe in a religion. When I see or hear religious people doing the opposite of this, then getting the hump when their beliefs are questioned, examined and then dismissed, it irritates me. We live in a 'free', non-secular state - where everybody is allowed to worship whatever God/Deity/Prophet/Cheese Sandwich they wish. The flipaide of that religious freedom is the freedom of those who choose not to blindly believe in something to question it.
Of course, when religion is kept personal, there's no issue. It's when it is allowed to see into society as a whole that it becomes insidious. I have a big problem with allowing state aid to religious schools, for instance - a practice that is permitted pretty much nowhere else in the western world, yet has been allowed here, despite the religions which benefit from this not having to pay taxes.
Look - let's not fool ourselves here. Most people couldn't give a damn about religion. If you're religious - great. If you're not - great. The majority of debate around religion nowadays is informed by the lunatic fringe (creationists) or fanatics (fundamentalists), whether it's through trying to sneak religion into science through infiltrating schools in an attempt to get creationist bullshit taught alongside real science, or by blowing other people up because they don't share your belief system. Neither of those views represent the vast majority of religion.
Although from the different side of the fence this is exactly what I'm getting at. I was an atheist I didn't only not believe but I detested the whole idea of religion and defied anyone who dared trying to shove religion in my face. This is exactly why it is something I don't do to others now I've crossed over to the otherside. If people ask me what I believe I will tell them, if people ask me why I will tell them, if people ask me to explain everything I can't, no one can. This thread is/was great it was asking people what they believe and we had a civilised discussion on what and why, we unfortunately took a bit of a downwards turn when questions got taunting like why did God bury fossils, then got personal (cafcnick1992) also the odd person saying that anyone that believes in God is an idiot.
It would be nice to get back the philosophical discussion where people are showing each other respect regardless if their difference in opinions.
Oops, sorry. I didn't ever want to be well known in this thread for being an arsehole. I just hold strong views on religion and get caught up in the moment. Sorry Sadie.
No-one expects anyone to change their belief, either in the existence of or non-existence of 'God'. As an adult, you will already have experienced enough to make you either have faith, or not.
This is the thing that really, really bothers most agnostics and atheists about religion though. I don't run around telling everybody how great it is not to believe in a religion. When I see or hear religious people doing the opposite of this, then getting the hump when their beliefs are questioned, examined and then dismissed, it irritates me. We live in a 'free', non-secular state - where everybody is allowed to worship whatever God/Deity/Prophet/Cheese Sandwich they wish. The flipaide of that religious freedom is the freedom of those who choose not to blindly believe in something to question it.
Of course, when religion is kept personal, there's no issue. It's when it is allowed to see into society as a whole that it becomes insidious. I have a big problem with allowing state aid to religious schools, for instance - a practice that is permitted pretty much nowhere else in the western world, yet has been allowed here, despite the religions which benefit from this not having to pay taxes.
Look - let's not fool ourselves here. Most people couldn't give a damn about religion. If you're religious - great. If you're not - great. The majority of debate around religion nowadays is informed by the lunatic fringe (creationists) or fanatics (fundamentalists), whether it's through trying to sneak religion into science through infiltrating schools in an attempt to get creationist bullshit taught alongside real science, or by blowing other people up because they don't share your belief system. Neither of those views represent the vast majority of religion.
Although from the different side of the fence this is exactly what I'm getting at. I was an atheist I didn't only not believe but I detested the whole idea of religion and defied anyone who dared trying to shove religion in my face. This is exactly why it is something I don't do to others now I've crossed over to the otherside. If people ask me what I believe I will tell them, if people ask me why I will tell them, if people ask me to explain everything I can't, no one can. This thread is/was great it was asking people what they believe and we had a civilised discussion on what and why, we unfortunately took a bit of a downwards turn when questions got taunting like why did God bury fossils, then got personal (cafcnick1992) also the odd person saying that anyone that believes in God is an idiot.
It would be nice to get back the philosophical discussion where people are showing each other respect regardless if their difference in opinions.
Which is why I'm not sure what good it is to continue with the discussion (read into this what you will). We have started to go round in circles. I've been through my posts and realised how many times I've repeated comments that don't prove the existence of God, but certainly support it and can't be denied that have received no acknowledgement. You guys don't believe and we do. The personal digs aren't funny and some people need to grow up. Which is why my invitation still stands to PM me if you want to ask questions in an adult way.
Oops, sorry. I didn't ever want to be well known in this thread for being an arsehole. I just hold strong views on religion and get caught up in the moment. Sorry Sadie.
If having faith that there is a God, a heaven and a hell makes you comfortable, then great.
If you believe that there is no supreme being, nothing after death and we live this life and that makes you comfortable, then great.
It's not the end of the world if you don't agree with one another, but respect eachother's right to believe and be comfortable with what each of you think is the truth.
As an agnostic I question both points of view... I want to have faith in a God but can't fully commit to it as I have far more doubt than belief. Science provides answers but not necessarily to the right questions. As such I have a lingering belief that there is something else going on, for that reason I can't commit myself to being an atheist either.
It's a confusing place being agnostic.
I accept that there is an argument for either view, of any view almost!
I apologise it feels like I have unfairly challenged either way.
Some are religious some are not. On here the majority are not. Does the fact that people do believe in God bother some of you that much that you have to keep finding new ways of digging or trying to change our minds?
Face facts; Some of us have faith, our faith is important to us and a huge part of our lives, whatever you say or do or whatever argument against God, the son or the bible is not going to change our minds, anymore than we can change yours. Whether you chose to believe it we have faith because Christ revealed himself to us in one way or another and we have experienced a religious moment that made us believe, I can not describe this in any way which will make any of you believe and I am not about to try.
This thread started by asking the question what is your religion? We have answered honestly and whole heartedly we have told you our faiths and we have told you what we believe, I respect the views, opinions, life choices and life styles of everyone on here and now I ask that you respect mine and the others that were brave enough to stand up as the minority on here and say they believe. Is that too much to ask?
Sorry Sadie but in the context of this type of discussion a certain amount of persuasive arguments are inevitable. I do find though that in general it is "the church" that employs this tactic rather than atheists. I don't see atheist missionaries or billboards proclaiming "God is NOT Lord"
I'm guessing you're completely unaware of the Dawkins bus advertisements?
Oh I am aware alright. It's the exception that proves the rule though don't you think.
Some are religious some are not. On here the majority are not. Does the fact that people do believe in God bother some of you that much that you have to keep finding new ways of digging or trying to change our minds?
Face facts; Some of us have faith, our faith is important to us and a huge part of our lives, whatever you say or do or whatever argument against God, the son or the bible is not going to change our minds, anymore than we can change yours. Whether you chose to believe it we have faith because Christ revealed himself to us in one way or another and we have experienced a religious moment that made us believe, I can not describe this in any way which will make any of you believe and I am not about to try.
This thread started by asking the question what is your religion? We have answered honestly and whole heartedly we have told you our faiths and we have told you what we believe, I respect the views, opinions, life choices and life styles of everyone on here and now I ask that you respect mine and the others that were brave enough to stand up as the minority on here and say they believe. Is that too much to ask?
Sorry Sadie but in the context of this type of discussion a certain amount of persuasive arguments are inevitable. I do find though that in general it is "the church" that employs this tactic rather than atheists. I don't see atheist missionaries or billboards proclaiming "God is NOT Lord"
I'm guessing you're completely unaware of the Dawkins bus advertisements?
Oh I am aware alright. It's the exception that proves the rule though don't you think.
Ultimately this argument will be "won" by the people who are motivated to keep arguing.
I'm not here to 'win' an argument. I was here to put my views across and had no intention or expectation of converting anyone. I totally respect your views.
Ultimately this argument will be "won" by the people who are motivated to keep arguing.
To argue longest on this debate is not to win, to argue honestly and take into account others view is the point. It's not a discussion/argument that can be 'won' in our short lifetimes.
Only those that have died before us can potentially know the truth.
If having faith that there is a God, a heaven and a hell makes you comfortable, then great.
If you believe that there is no supreme being, nothing after death and we live this life and that makes you comfortable, then great.
It's not the end of the world if you don't agree with one another, but respect eachother's right to believe and be comfortable with what each of you think is the truth.
As an agnostic I question both points of view... I want to have faith in a God but can't fully commit to it as I have far more doubt than belief. Science provides answers but not necessarily to the right questions. As such I have a lingering belief that there is something else going on, for that reason I can't commit myself to being an atheist either.
It's a confusing place being agnostic.
I accept that there is an argument for either view, of any view almost!
I apologise it feels like I have unfairly challenged either way.
wrong
We won't and that's the way I want it because being a non believer I will be cast into hell for eternity if I'm wrong. One, that doesn't sound very compassionate and two, it doesn't sound like much fun. ( a bit like being given a Palace season ticket every year I suspect )
Ultimately this argument will be "won" by the people who are motivated to keep arguing.
I'm not here to 'win' an argument. I was hear to put my views across and had no intention or expectation of converting anyone. I totally respect your views.
This.
For me whether to have faith in 'revealed' religions, to totally dismiss the existence of a God or Gods, or to be agnostic is an intensely personal decision, and indeed should be. All one has to do, or should do, is open one's mind to all the possibilities and to make an informed decision. The approach from evangelists from whatever side should be along the lines of 'this is what I believe and why' and not 'you will believe - one way or another'.
'Truth' is in the eye of the beholder - as there are very few absolute truths.
We won't and that's the way I want it because being a non believer I will be cast into hell for eternity if I'm wrong. One, that doesn't sound very compassionate and two, it doesn't sound like much fun. ( a bit like being given a Palace season ticket every year I suspect
We won't and that's the way I want it because being a non believer I will be cast into hell for eternity if I'm wrong. One, that doesn't sound very compassionate and two, it doesn't sound like much fun. ( a bit like being given a Palace season ticket every year I suspect
Old age could catch you when you least expect it...You may already being going senile... You are repeating yourself ;-) (you know I'm kidding)
Near death experience us probably just DMT being released into the body, people may see 'god' in the final moments but you are just tripping out on chemicals
Some are religious some are not. On here the majority are not. Does the fact that people do believe in God bother some of you that much that you have to keep finding new ways of digging or trying to change our minds?
Face facts; Some of us have faith, our faith is important to us and a huge part of our lives, whatever you say or do or whatever argument against God, the son or the bible is not going to change our minds, anymore than we can change yours. Whether you chose to believe it we have faith because Christ revealed himself to us in one way or another and we have experienced a religious moment that made us believe, I can not describe this in any way which will make any of you believe and I am not about to try.
This thread started by asking the question what is your religion? We have answered honestly and whole heartedly we have told you our faiths and we have told you what we believe, I respect the views, opinions, life choices and life styles of everyone on here and now I ask that you respect mine and the others that were brave enough to stand up as the minority on here and say they believe. Is that too much to ask?
Sorry Sadie but in the context of this type of discussion a certain amount of persuasive arguments are inevitable. I do find though that in general it is "the church" that employs this tactic rather than atheists. I don't see atheist missionaries or billboards proclaiming "God is NOT Lord"
I'm guessing you're completely unaware of the Dawkins bus advertisements?
The ones that said "There is probably no god, so stop worrying and enjoy your lives" you mean? Please note the word "Probably".
The one created by Ariane Sherine, who isn't Richard Dawkins? Paid for by hundreds of different people out of their own pockets? Prof Dawkins being one of them - as I already detailed earlier in the thread?
Or is there another completely different on going campaign, like there is outside churches all over the country, every year all year around, partly funded by the tax breaks the church gets?
Comments
I completely understand that some people said earlier in the thread that they are angry with religion. So am I. Too many of us (believers) haven't followed the model that Jesus put in place, but we are human and imperfect. If we did, we wouldn't have to have some of the discussions that have taken place on this thread and that is a sad fact. I just ask that you look beyond those who are committing heinous acts 'in the name of allah' or 'Jesus' and whether these faiths actually teach or condone such behaviour.
Science is great and has so many answers and I embrace it but don't feel it can be seen as an alternative to faith as it has very little to offer. Whether you believe in God or not, I know literally hundreds of people who have had their lives transformed through the power of Jesus and some of them are posting on this thread. Many have peace they've never known, direction, purpose, physical and emotional healing, fulfillment and no longer feel the need to chase the latest high that will inevitably leave you empty whether it's the next relationship, job, promotion, car etc. You can go on about science until the cows come home but nothing can compare to what faith can give you.
I believe that the bible has an enormous amount to teach us in the 21st century and cannot see how anyone who has read Psalms or the Gospels for example can say otherwise. As a 19 year old I found it to be frighteningly relevant considering how old it was. Jesus spoke out against the love of money for example as it leads nowhere. Unfortunately, people are having to find this out for themselves which is fine but unnecessary as it is there in the bible in black and white. A relevant message for the 21st century? I think so.
I'm not posting regularly because I don't really see what good it's doing. I've made several good points that have been ignored. If I come up with an adequate answer to a question another one pops out with no acknowledgement at all about what faith has to offer. When this thread started, the point was made that people didn't like Christianity pushed into their faces. Well, the most in your face views that have been put across as fact, have been atheistic ones. The people who won't just accept that people believe in something and should be allowed to feel the way they do have been atheists, which I find ironic. If you're still reading my long post and want to actually have a conversation about things do PM me. I do not have all the answers and may not be able to answer all of your questions but will speak up for what I believe in.
Face facts; Some of us have faith, our faith is important to us and a huge part of our lives, whatever you say or do or whatever argument against God, the son or the bible is not going to change our minds, anymore than we can change yours. Whether you chose to believe it we have faith because Christ revealed himself to us in one way or another and we have experienced a religious moment that made us believe, I can not describe this in any way which will make any of you believe and I am not about to try.
This thread started by asking the question what is your religion? We have answered honestly and whole heartedly we have told you our faiths and we have told you what we believe, I respect the views, opinions, life choices and life styles of everyone on here and now I ask that you respect mine and the others that were brave enough to stand up as the minority on here and say they believe. Is that too much to ask?
"...il faut cultiver notre jardin"
which I think suggested that whilst all spiritual and philosophical investigation is all fine and dandy, ultimately we have to get on with living our lives and dealing with the here and now. I generally subscribe to the Harry Bosch view that " Everybody counts or nobody counts". I guess we are all heading the same way and we'll all find out sooner or later. Let's hope somehow we all meet on the other side on the Charlton Afterlife message board and we have a good laugh at how little we really knew :-)
This is the thing that really, really bothers most agnostics and atheists about religion though. I don't run around telling everybody how great it is not to believe in a religion. When I see or hear religious people doing the opposite of this, then getting the hump when their beliefs are questioned, examined and then dismissed, it irritates me. We live in a 'free', non-secular state - where everybody is allowed to worship whatever God/Deity/Prophet/Cheese Sandwich they wish. The flipaide of that religious freedom is the freedom of those who choose not to blindly believe in something to question it.
Of course, when religion is kept personal, there's no issue. It's when it is allowed to see into society as a whole that it becomes insidious. I have a big problem with allowing state aid to religious schools, for instance - a practice that is permitted pretty much nowhere else in the western world, yet has been allowed here, despite the religions which benefit from this not having to pay taxes.
Look - let's not fool ourselves here. Most people couldn't give a damn about religion. If you're religious - great. If you're not - great. The majority of debate around religion nowadays is informed by the lunatic fringe (creationists) or fanatics (fundamentalists), whether it's through trying to sneak religion into science through infiltrating schools in an attempt to get creationist bullshit taught alongside real science, or by blowing other people up because they don't share your belief system. Neither of those views represent the vast majority of religion.
It would be nice to get back the philosophical discussion where people are showing each other respect regardless if their difference in opinions.
If having faith that there is a God, a heaven and a hell makes you comfortable, then great.
If you believe that there is no supreme being, nothing after death and we live this life and that makes you comfortable, then great.
It's not the end of the world if you don't agree with one another, but respect eachother's right to believe and be comfortable with what each of you think is the truth.
As an agnostic I question both points of view...
I want to have faith in a God but can't fully commit to it as I have far more doubt than belief.
Science provides answers but not necessarily to the right questions. As such I have a lingering belief that there is something else going on, for that reason I can't commit myself to being an atheist either.
It's a confusing place being agnostic.
I accept that there is an argument for either view, of any view almost!
I apologise it feels like I have unfairly challenged either way.
Only those that have died before us can potentially know the truth.
We won't and that's the way I want it because being a non believer I will be cast into hell for eternity if I'm wrong. One, that doesn't sound very compassionate and two, it doesn't sound like much fun. ( a bit like being given a Palace season ticket every year I suspect )
For me whether to have faith in 'revealed' religions, to totally dismiss the existence of a God or Gods, or to be agnostic is an intensely personal decision, and indeed should be. All one has to do, or should do, is open one's mind to all the possibilities and to make an informed decision. The approach from evangelists from whatever side should be along the lines of 'this is what I believe and why' and not 'you will believe - one way or another'.
'Truth' is in the eye of the beholder - as there are very few absolute truths.
The one created by Ariane Sherine, who isn't Richard Dawkins? Paid for by hundreds of different people out of their own pockets? Prof Dawkins being one of them - as I already detailed earlier in the thread?
Or is there another completely different on going campaign, like there is outside churches all over the country, every year all year around, partly funded by the tax breaks the church gets?
I think we should be told...