But then again, to quote Mr Carlin, "What's the point in praying if it's already all been decided in God's 'Divine Plan?' What's the point of being a Supreme Being with a 'Divine Plan' if it can get screwed up by any schmuck with a $2 Prayer Book?"
Sometimes I really wish that people such as the guy you're quoting would either read the bible, ask questions, simply state why they don't believe or not say anything. How can you pull something apart and make arguments against it if you don't know about it? How can you argue against the theology of Christianity or any faith if you haven't read the book and understood it's context? Anyone who has read the bible will know of examples when God has heard the cries of his people and responded. For example, Hannah desperately pleaded and wrestled with God for him to bless her with a child and God responded. The Bible is clear about the power of prayer to change circumstances within his will. He says he longs to give us the desires of our hearts.
I have a GSCE in Religious Education (Catholic). In general, there is an argument to back up / justify any position you like in the Bible if you selectively quote. That involves good and bad actions.
Religion can be individually helpful and provides a sense of community. It is belief and opinion. Ultimately it is a matter of faith that cannot be proven one or other.
With all due respect to Addick in SW16.
There is some truth in that. What is important is the context. Knowing why and when a passage was written and having a background of the particular scripture.
I though the bible was "the word"? Am I missing the contemporary "help notes", or the "Making of" video somewhere along the line that no one has told me about? A bible "idiots guide" that was written at the time perhaps?
Is there a 'physical' God, or is it merely the combined wisdom and understanding of many millennia of faith? Why would it make any difference when you cannot know anything about the nature of God when you are on earth?
I just can't get my head around it to be honest. Following a book of outdated stories and 'commandments' and living my life by it? The world has evolved and moved on yet this book is still at the forefront of wars and evil?
Surely if there was a God then we wouldn't have such tragedies to deal with, like the Tsunami as someone mentioned in an earlier post.
I'm not knocking those who believe in it, and I wouldn't mock those who do, but that is my view.
Is there a 'physical' God, or is it merely the combined wisdom and understanding of many millennia of faith? Why would it make any difference when you cannot know anything about the nature of God when you are on earth?
We say that God exists in the image of man, doesn't mean he is a physical form how can he be? He is greater than any physical entity and greater than the universe so can't be a physical element. He will exist physically in any form he wishes to present himself. But we don't need to see him to be able to feel him.
Because religion is protected from criticism and anyone who dares question it is "narrow-minded", "disrespectful" or a "bigot". The only bigotted people are the liberal bigots who do the accusing.
That's bollocks though. There's people who would say anyone who identifies as religious (in any faith/denomination) is stupid/brainwashed/believes fairy tales/doesn't believe in science at all - that's pretty bigoted. The vast majority of Catholics were as horrified as anyone at the scale of the coverup of the abuse SOME (a tiny minority) priests subjected children too - but you'd get people who'd claim that all Catholics condone it, if they're not actively part of it themselves.
Bigotry is bigotry, I have no time for anyone who decides that their particular viewpoint on religion is correct and anyone who disagrees is an idiot/heretic etc. That goes for militant atheists as much as extremists of any religious creed. Religion is most certainly not protected from criticism - or this thread would have been closed long ago.
Oh I highly suspect that's because we're addressing Christianity in this forum in a relatively nice part of the world. You want to start addressing the legitimacy of Islam and discussing whether it has any place in the 21st century? No i didn't think so you "islamaphobe...etc...etc."
If any muslim, jew, church of the flying spaghetti monster believer wants to join in, I am quite happy to shoot their fairy tales down in flames too. Although it is more difficult because I am less aware of their stories than those of the bible...
Is there a 'physical' God, or is it merely the combined wisdom and understanding of many millennia of faith? Why would it make any difference when you cannot know anything about the nature of God when you are on earth?
We say that God exists in the image of man, doesn't mean he is a physical form how can he be? He is greater than any physical entity and greater than the universe so can't be a physical element. He will exist physically in any form he wishes to present himself. But we don't need to see him to be able to feel him.
So, basically, God is whatever anyone wants him to be?
Why do we have to take the existence as an article of faith - why not as an article of fact?
Because then it would not be faith (is the argument a Christian friend gave me before). Not demanding proof but trusting God implicitly. (Rightly or wrongly is in the eyes of the beholder I suspect.)
I saw David Blane walk on water on the tele once, I saw David Copperfield make an elephant disappear, I saw Dynamo walk through a plate glass window. My mate Fabio can make a playing card I have signed and locked in a box appear in his mouth five minutes later. Perhaps I should start believing in miracles, I mean I actually saw them with my own eyes, I don't just have to take the word of some monk writing down a story 600 years after it happened?
Someone mentioned footballers etc thanking their god when they get it right, so why don't you see them flicking the vees skywards after a 7-1 defeat then...?
It's a shame none of our Jewish, Muslim, Hindu or other religions' supporters have posted. I feel sorry for Sadie and the other Christians who have eloquently put themselves in the firing line.
For Mr Dawkins: Atheism is a bit like having a penis. If you are proud of it, that's fine. But if you keep getting it out and waving it in my face, then we'll have problems
That has to me the most ridiculous post I have ever read on CL and that takes some doing. That saying can only go for organised religion not atheists.
For Mr Dawkins: Atheism is a bit like having a penis. If you are proud of it, that's fine. But if you keep getting it out and waving it in my face, then we'll have problems
That has to me the most ridiculous post I have ever read on CL and that takes some doing. That saying can only go for organised religion not atheists.
Why? Mr Dawkins is clearly trying convert people to his faith by promoting it at every possible opportunity (why else pay for banner advertising on the side of London buses?). The way he acts is remarkably similar to every other fundamentalist bore preacher who does just the same thing - except that he earns more monet out of doing it than most.
Is there a 'physical' God, or is it merely the combined wisdom and understanding of many millennia of faith? Why would it make any difference when you cannot know anything about the nature of God when you are on earth?
We say that God exists in the image of man, doesn't mean he is a physical form how can he be? He is greater than any physical entity and greater than the universe so can't be a physical element. He will exist physically in any form he wishes to present himself. But we don't need to see him to be able to feel him.
Didn't the bible say something about god creating man in his own image?
For Mr Dawkins: Atheism is a bit like having a penis. If you are proud of it, that's fine. But if you keep getting it out and waving it in my face, then we'll have problems
That has to me the most ridiculous post I have ever read on CL and that takes some doing. That saying can only go for organised religion not atheists.
Why? Mr Dawkins is clearly trying convert people to his faith by promoting it at every possible opportunity (why else pay for banner advertising on the side of London buses?). The way he acts is remarkably similar to every other fundamentalist bore preacher who does just the same thing - except that he earns more monet out of doing it than most.
For Mr Dawkins: Atheism is a bit like having a penis. If you are proud of it, that's fine. But if you keep getting it out and waving it in my face, then we'll have problems
That has to me the most ridiculous post I have ever read on CL and that takes some doing. That saying can only go for organised religion not atheists.
It is perfectly applicable to both! What they believe is not the issue, it's how they go about demonstrating those beliefs.
For Mr Dawkins: Atheism is a bit like having a penis. If you are proud of it, that's fine. But if you keep getting it out and waving it in my face, then we'll have problems
That has to me the most ridiculous post I have ever read on CL and that takes some doing. That saying can only go for organised religion not atheists.
Why? Mr Dawkins is clearly trying convert people to his faith by promoting it at every possible opportunity (why else pay for banner advertising on the side of London buses?). The way he acts is remarkably similar to every other fundamentalist bore preacher who does just the same thing - except that he earns more monet out of doing it than most.
Yawn. Atheism isn't a faith....
But it clearly is, unless you have scientific proof that God does not exist, whether as a physical or supernatural entity or even as a shared concept or form?
If you don't then it is just as much a leap of faith to say that God probably does not exist as to say that he/she/it probably does, given that there is absolutely no evidence either way.
Agnosticism - simply saying that there is no evidence and so you can never know - is a perfectly honourable tradition, but Mr Dawkins has never struck me as being agnostic.
Is there a 'physical' God, or is it merely the combined wisdom and understanding of many millennia of faith? Why would it make any difference when you cannot know anything about the nature of God when you are on earth?
We say that God exists in the image of man, doesn't mean he is a physical form how can he be? He is greater than any physical entity and greater than the universe so can't be a physical element. He will exist physically in any form he wishes to present himself. But we don't need to see him to be able to feel him.
Didn't the bible say something about god creating man in his own image?
For Mr Dawkins: Atheism is a bit like having a penis. If you are proud of it, that's fine. But if you keep getting it out and waving it in my face, then we'll have problems
That has to me the most ridiculous post I have ever read on CL and that takes some doing. That saying can only go for organised religion not atheists.
Why? Mr Dawkins is clearly trying convert people to his faith by promoting it at every possible opportunity (why else pay for banner advertising on the side of London buses?). The way he acts is remarkably similar to every other fundamentalist bore preacher who does just the same thing - except that he earns more monet out of doing it than most.
Yawn. Atheism isn't a faith....
But it clearly is, unless you have scientific proof that God does not exist, whether as a physical or supernatural entity or even as a shared concept or form?
If you don't then it is just as much a leap of faith to say that God probably does not exist as to say that he/she/it probably does, given that there is absolutely no evidence either way.
Agnosticism - simply saying that there is no evidence and so you can never know - is a perfectly honourable tradition, but Mr Dawkins has never struck me as being agnostic.
I have just been talking to a pink cat with a lemur's tail, he told me his name was Mimbo and that I was his chosen one on earth and that you should send me all your money in order for you to save yourself from spending the rest of eternity waving at passing trains yelling "Coo-ee".
If you can't prove Mimbo doesn't exist, best get that chequebook out pronto...
For Mr Dawkins: Atheism is a bit like having a penis. If you are proud of it, that's fine. But if you keep getting it out and waving it in my face, then we'll have problems
That has to me the most ridiculous post I have ever read on CL and that takes some doing. That saying can only go for organised religion not atheists.
hey, he's misquoting my one and it originally came from Judy Dench! Credit where it's due, and it was a great quote in it's original form!
Surprised paulie hasn't told us to stop discussing this yet? ;o)
Seriously though
Free will... 'God's' biggest favour/failure towards man.
Is it free will that let's Israel bomb Palestine, killing innocents every day? It may be Israel's will but certainly is not Palestine's.
Was it free will for all the jews and non aryan race people to be led to concentration camps? Maybe Hitler's and his soldiers, certainly not those that were to have their lives extinguished.
Is it free will that countless people are murdered daily, fully against their own will?
This 'God' you all claim protects you solely as you have faith that it exists, has in fact if itdoes exist let countless people die throughout history against their wills.
I cannot believe in something so cruel to teach you right from wrong but not protect those that try to follow it's path only to be hurt or killed by those that chose not to follow it's way.
You may answer those that follow his way go to 'Heaven'... faith once again is required to get there.
You may answer those that don't follow his way or have faith will go to 'Hell' surely you have to have faith that 'Hell' exists to go there? If you have faith that 'Hell' exists you will potentially repent for your sins and be forgiven!
More crelty from this 'God' there...
Believe in me whilst living a good/honourable life - go to heaven. If you pass go collect £200.
Believe in me whilst living a bad/dishonourable life but repent - go to heaven. If you pass go collect £200.
Live your life in a truly harmless way to another soul but don't believe in me? You're going to Hell. Do not pass go, do not collect £200. Suffer an eternity, rolling double's won't help you here.
I'm not even saying I don't believe, though I am not saying I do either.
I am just saying I find it hard to believe this 'God' exists in such a black and white way. I doubt a book written by scaremongers however many years ago can contain the full truth of this 'God'.
Maybe this 'God' is merely one of many Gods. All with different views and opinions. They most likely have their own God, who follow other Gods etc..
How can you 'prove' God doesnt exist? Maybe I can pray that no children die this month from cancer. If one does, is that proof he doesnt exist - no, just like if none die this month it proves he exists.
It is like proving that today I did not think about marshmallows - you cannot do it.
Is there a 'physical' God, or is it merely the combined wisdom and understanding of many millennia of faith? Why would it make any difference when you cannot know anything about the nature of God when you are on earth?
We say that God exists in the image of man, doesn't mean he is a physical form how can he be? He is greater than any physical entity and greater than the universe so can't be a physical element. He will exist physically in any form he wishes to present himself. But we don't need to see him to be able to feel him.
Didn't the bible say something about god creating man in his own image?
Precisely
"He will exist physically in any form he wishes to present himself."
You did think of marshamllows though... in order to type their name today, you thought of them. Had you said 'It is like proving that yesterday I did not think about marshmallows - you cannot do it.' your point would be correct. ;o)
Comments
Surely if there was a God then we wouldn't have such tragedies to deal with, like the Tsunami as someone mentioned in an earlier post.
I'm not knocking those who believe in it, and I wouldn't mock those who do, but that is my view.
Just to say - look, here I am.
Why do we have to take the existence as an article of faith - why not as an article of fact?
Seems legit...
Someone mentioned footballers etc thanking their god when they get it right, so why don't you see them flicking the vees skywards after a 7-1 defeat then...?
Muslim, Hindu or other religions' supporters have posted. I feel sorry for Sadie and the other Christians who have eloquently put themselves in the firing line.
If you don't then it is just as much a leap of faith to say that God probably does not exist as to say that he/she/it probably does, given that there is absolutely no evidence either way.
Agnosticism - simply saying that there is no evidence and so you can never know - is a perfectly honourable tradition, but Mr Dawkins has never struck me as being agnostic.
If you can't prove Mimbo doesn't exist, best get that chequebook out pronto...
Seriously though
Free will... 'God's' biggest favour/failure towards man.
Is it free will that let's Israel bomb Palestine, killing innocents every day? It may be Israel's will but certainly is not Palestine's.
Was it free will for all the jews and non aryan race people to be led to concentration camps? Maybe Hitler's and his soldiers, certainly not those that were to have their lives extinguished.
Is it free will that countless people are murdered daily, fully against their own will?
This 'God' you all claim protects you solely as you have faith that it exists, has in fact if itdoes exist let countless people die throughout history against their wills.
I cannot believe in something so cruel to teach you right from wrong but not protect those that try to follow it's path only to be hurt or killed by those that chose not to follow it's way.
You may answer those that follow his way go to 'Heaven'... faith once again is required to get there.
You may answer those that don't follow his way or have faith will go to 'Hell' surely you have to have faith that 'Hell' exists to go there? If you have faith that 'Hell' exists you will potentially repent for your sins and be forgiven!
More crelty from this 'God' there...
Believe in me whilst living a good/honourable life - go to heaven. If you pass go collect £200.
Believe in me whilst living a bad/dishonourable life but repent - go to heaven. If you pass go collect £200.
Live your life in a truly harmless way to another soul but don't believe in me? You're going to Hell. Do not pass go, do not collect £200. Suffer an eternity, rolling double's won't help you here.
I'm not even saying I don't believe, though I am not saying I do either.
I am just saying I find it hard to believe this 'God' exists in such a black and white way. I doubt a book written by scaremongers however many years ago can contain the full truth of this 'God'.
Maybe this 'God' is merely one of many Gods. All with different views and opinions. They most likely have their own God, who follow other Gods etc..
How can you 'prove' God doesnt exist?
Maybe I can pray that no children die this month from cancer.
If one does, is that proof he doesnt exist - no, just like if none die this month it proves he exists.
It is like proving that today I did not think about marshmallows - you cannot do it.
Then that statement is wrong.