But then again, to quote Mr Carlin, "What's the point in praying if it's already all been decided in God's 'Divine Plan?' What's the point of being a Supreme Being with a 'Divine Plan' if it can get screwed up by any schmuck with a $2 Prayer Book?"
Sometimes I really wish that people such as the guy you're quoting would either read the bible, ask questions, simply state why they don't believe or not say anything. How can you pull something apart and make arguments against it if you don't know about it? How can you argue against the theology of Christianity or any faith if you haven't read the book and understood it's context? Anyone who has read the bible will know of examples when God has heard the cries of his people and responded. For example, Hannah desperately pleaded and wrestled with God for him to bless her with a child and God responded. The Bible is clear about the power of prayer to change circumstances within his will. He says he longs to give us the desires of our hearts.
I have a GSCE in Religious Education (Catholic). In general, there is an argument to back up / justify any position you like in the Bible if you selectively quote. That involves good and bad actions.
Religion can be individually helpful and provides a sense of community. It is belief and opinion.
Ultimately it is a matter of faith that cannot be proven one or other.
With all due respect to Addick in SW16.
I believe there are fairies at the bottom of my garden. The fact you can't disprove that belief doesn't make it any less likely that it will be ridiculed.
Perhaps my stance is based on the idea that for me to believe in Something I have to have either proof or at a minimum a weight of evidence for which I can make up my mind.
What I do not understand is that so many people can believe in something when to all intents and purposes it is like believing in my fairies. The same people are yet cynical about everything else just like us non believers.
Just to return to a fundamental, and a nod towards science and philosophy. This will be clumsy too, but I believe the first words of the Christian Bible is;
'in the beginning'
The 'beginning', I mean what is that all about? Science is going for it with the hadron collider, and big bang theories, or evolution, religion is going for it with God. Issac Azimov goes for it by saying a circle has no beginning or end, ta dah! However that is the fundamental mystery isn't it...the beginning...? Not being able to suss that one out leads to the notion of faith from the religious, and endless scientific exploration. Neither science nor religion are going to convince all of the people they have solved the problem of 'the beginning'.
Maybe the meaning of life is to try to come to terms with the meaning of life.
For many it is 'sod that, I'm going for hedonism'.
Just as we have religion and science, we also have morality and something loosely defined as civilization. I reckon I know why we are moral, and strive to be civilized, but as for science and religion...I am pretty well baffled.
Scientists are on the verge of evidence supporting the theory of cosmology/inflation. They will soon have evidence of what happened 0.00000000000000000000000000000000001seconds after the big bang.
This will put them way in front of any 'evidence' religion has offered up.
Just to return to a fundamental, and a nod towards science and philosophy. This will be clumsy too, but I believe the first words of the Christian Bible is;
'in the beginning'
The 'beginning', I mean what is that all about? Science is going for it with the hadron collider, and big bang theories, or evolution, religion is going for it with God. Issac Azimov goes for it by saying a circle has no beginning or end, ta dah! However that is the fundamental mystery isn't it...the beginning...? Not being able to suss that one out leads to the notion of faith from the religious, and endless scientific exploration. Neither science nor religion are going to convince all of the people they have solved the problem of 'the beginning'.
Maybe the meaning of life is to try to come to terms with the meaning of life.
For many it is 'sod that, I'm going for hedonism'.
Just as we have religion and science, we also have morality and something loosely defined as civilization. I reckon I know why we are moral, and strive to be civilized, but as for science and religion...I am pretty well baffled.
Scientists are on the verge of evidence supporting the theory of cosmology/inflation. They will soon have evidence of what happened 0.00000000000000000000000000000000001seconds after the big bang.
This will put them way in front of any 'evidence' religion has offered up.
Yeah I get that, they are ahead of religion in terms of scientific evidence. However will they know what it was that 'banged' in the first place, and what about the 'space' that everything is supposed to have expanded into, did that come from somewhere? In the struggle to explain the meaning of it all, I suspect neither religion or science will ever supply 'the' answer...there will always and for ever be a titchy bit of space left over for ShootersHillGuru's fairies, be they dressed in white coats or robes.
I don't believe a bloke called Noah put two (presumably one male and one female) example of every species on a boat and floated around for forty days. I don't believe anyone managed to 'part' the Red sea to allow migrants to cross. I don't believe a bloke was nailed to a cross, died and then came back to life a couple of days later. So i ask the 'believers' are these stories true. ?
Depends on whether you believe what you read in the Daily Mail or not
Just one question, if god gave humans the ability for rational thought, why is there any need for a Bible that, for many people, just tells people what to do, think and how to behave? ( I was raised as an RC and kept in a convent for rather too long) Couldn't we have worked it for ourselves? Am I any the less moral for not accepting the teachings of the Bible? I just sometimes grow very weary that some people think my soul needs saving and determine that they will convert me to their god. If we are not harming anyone else, then live and let live.
I don't believe a bloke called Noah put two (presumably one male and one female) example of every species on a boat and floated around for forty days. I don't believe anyone managed to 'part' the Red sea to allow migrants to cross. I don't believe a bloke was nailed to a cross, died and then came back to life a couple of days later. So i ask the 'believers' are these stories true. ?
Depends on whether you believe what you read in the Daily Mail or not
Laughable. Actually, not laughable at all, really - it shows the insidiousness of the religious 'science' argument, whereby people try to 'prove' things that are patently impossible.
Science has come a long way in the last 100 years and humans will continue to discover more and more the whole time we are improving technology. Christianity has been stuck in the same place for 1500 hundred years.
As you point out the religious types will always say that something had to be there before that, which I find quite comical when they believe God created everything so what made God?
I don't think you'll find many Christians that disregard science, the scientific way things work, how things evolved the way the planets are held by the sun, the way the the earth is positioned as to make it perfect for life etc etc, however all of this stuff is so precise and it must have a designer, an original plan.
I don't believe a bloke called Noah put two (presumably one male and one female) example of every species on a boat and floated around for forty days. I don't believe anyone managed to 'part' the Red sea to allow migrants to cross. I don't believe a bloke was nailed to a cross, died and then came back to life a couple of days later. So i ask the 'believers' are these stories true. ?
Depends on whether you believe what you read in the Daily Mail or not
Laughable. Actually, not laughable at all, really - it shows the insidiousness of the religious 'science' argument, whereby people try to 'prove' things that are patently impossible.
Knew it - Daily Mail discovers new evidence for illegal immigration.
I don't think you'll find many Christians that disregard science, the scientific way things work, how things evolved the way the planets are held by the sun, the way the the earth is positioned as to make it perfect for life etc etc, however all of this stuff is so precise and it must have a designer, an original plan. </p></div></blockquote>
I don't think you'll find many Christians that disregard science, the scientific way things work, how things evolved the way the planets are held by the sun, the way the the earth is positioned as to make it perfect for life etc etc, however all of this stuff is so precise and it must have a designer, an original plan.
Sorry, Sadie Jane, I can't agree. There are billions of planets, eventually life would have begun somewhere. It just happens to be here, though it may be common across the universe too. The whole designer/original plan idea just doesnt hold water for me. Who designed the designer? Has the designer been around since time began? What about natural selection, which is a far more comprehensible and credible idea than creationism?
Just one question, if god gave humans the ability for rational thought, why is there any need for a Bible that, for many people, just tells people what to do, think and how to behave? ( I was raised as an RC and kept in a convent for rather too long) Couldn't we have worked it for ourselves? Am I any the less moral for not accepting the teachings of the Bible? I just sometimes grow very weary that some people think my soul needs saving and determine that they will convert me to their god. If we are not harming anyone else, then live and let live.
Good question.
Could the answer be human selfishness?
What is good for the individual is not always for the common good hence the need for some sort of guide or framework (Bible, Koran, Torah etc) for those who wish to choose "God's" way.
I don't think you'll find many Christians that disregard science, the scientific way things work, how things evolved the way the planets are held by the sun, the way the the earth is positioned as to make it perfect for life etc etc, however all of this stuff is so precise and it must have a designer, an original plan.
The earth is just one of trillions of planets in the universe. It's contains life because of its distance from its star and several other factors. I don't see how that must mean there is a designer. It's chance nothing more than that. You me and everything else is made of atoms that have come together due to billions of years of natural occurrences.
But then again, to quote Mr Carlin, "What's the point in praying if it's already all been decided in God's 'Divine Plan?' What's the point of being a Supreme Being with a 'Divine Plan' if it can get screwed up by any schmuck with a $2 Prayer Book?"
What proof does anyone have that this child was the result of their God's benevolent will as opposed to a good old, normal act of conception /sheer luck ?
That of course is the $64,000 question. In fact it can be argued that it might have been, as you put it, just a regular conception.
The argument goes like this: the Hebrew word '"Almah" was mistranslated (probably deliberately to fit in with Matthews easily discredited claims on the virgin birth prophecy but perhaps they had their equivalent of Google translator back then), first into Greek as "Parthenos" and then via Latin and eventually English as "Virgin". It is noteworthy that another biblical character Dinah, was still described in the first Greek translation of the hebrew texts - the Septuagint - as an Almah after she had been raped. So the word is highly unlikely to mean "Virgin".
In fact, Almah almost certainly merely meant "young woman" (possibly of marriageable age or of child-bearing age or indeed actually married). So a bit like a human version of a heifer if you like. I've been told but have not seen any evidence that the equivalent and very similar ancient Arabic word goes further and means "a girl yet to have her first period".
Whatever, the concept of The Virgin is clearly at least extremely ambiguous and at worst just plain wrong but without it the Catholic Church is in a very bad place indeed so it has endured over the centuries.
So, if we take this story, it's just that a girl, maybe around 12 years old, maybe a bit older but not much, got pregnant. Possibly, as is entirely feasible, and with very bad luck indeed, during her first ever menstrual cycle. With no concept of paedophilia in village life 2000 odd years ago, that's entirely, well, conceivable.
Now, consider this 12 year old girl living in a tiny god-fearing hamlet well off the beaten track and not on any trade routes. She has been secretly bonking her betrothed, the local carpenter. (Betrothal was a formal ceremony back then that may have been 12 months before the marriage). The girl's mother would have been well aware her daughter hadn't yet had a period as would the whole village who would otherwise have noticed her missing from public life*. So, it would make very good sense indeed to claim that you'd been visited by an angel of god rather than a randy chippy who couldn't wait for his wedding night. It would also make very good pragmatic sense for the whole hamlet to go along with this story. The girl can remain of good character which is great for her and her family and the carpenter doesn't have to bail out of the marriage at this late stage because the child wasn't his (he would probably otherwise have to claim this in order to retain his reputation) and as a bonus he gets visited by an angel too who tells him he gets to bring up his own kid. Sorted.
*I say this in the context of the very strict (and peculiar) Talmud Laws of Menstruation which state that a woman remains unclean for a week after her menstruation has ended. Indeed a woman had to be isolated during her monthly period as she would contaminate all who touch her. Extreme, yes but back in the day a husband (let alone a fiancée) would have been subject to the death penalty for having sex with his wife while she was "unclean". So, you can be sure that with this law's all-pervading intrusion into everyday life, a girl's mother would have wanted to know when her daughter's first period was.
Whatever you do, don't get me started on the massive flaws to the whole travel to Bethlehem for the birth story.
Science has come a long way in the last 100 years and humans will continue to discover more and more the whole time we are improving technology. Christianity has been stuck in the same place for 1500 hundred years.
As you point out the religious types will always say that something had to be there before that, which I find quite comical when they believe God created everything so what made God?
Not strictly true - the Church was a big proponent of the Earth-centric Universe theory, that view is not taken seriously even by the highest ranked of the Clergy. There were the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Witch Trials, all of which today everyone except the most extreme lunatic fringe would find as horrific as any atheist, or person of any religious viewpoint actually.
There are a few extremist Christians who DO seem stuck in the past, but we can't really judge mainstream Christianity on them any more than judging mainstream Islam on ISIS. The similarities are far outweighed by the differences.
I don't believe in a Creator and short of direct contact I doubt I ever will, but I am not going to hold being religious against anyone as long as they don't take it to the fanatical, insane militant extreme. The scum who killed Lee Rigby went down for murder, not for being Muslim, and that is how it should be.
I don't think you'll find many Christians that disregard science, the scientific way things work, how things evolved the way the planets are held by the sun, the way the the earth is positioned as to make it perfect for life etc etc, however all of this stuff is so precise and it must have a designer, an original plan.
The earth is just one of trillions of planets in the universe. It's contains life because of its distance from its star and several other factors. I don't see how that must mean there is a designer. It's chance nothing more than that. You me and everything else is made of atoms that have come together due to billions of years of natural occurrences.
Exactly. We are the result of an uncalculatable number of permutations that the universe has had an unlimited amount of time to produce.
It's not debating school Daggs, people have been open with their beliefs and what's important to them. No one needs to be pulled apart over it.
Whoops i've overstepped the Charlton Life mark........... Of course it's a debate. There are folk on here who insist God exists. There are others who see it as total crap. I'm asking for explanations and justifications from the God squad for things i see as total nonsense. I'm still here. I've not scuttled off defeated.
Demarcation mate! Have you never read the Douglas Adams Hitchhikers Guide books. And I semi quote,
what's the point in philosophers sitting up all night arguing about whether there is a god or not, if Charlton Life are going to provide his telephone number the next bloody morning?
As an Anglican Church goer Christian we follow the gospels more so than the bible, we don't completely disregard the Old Testament but take it with a pinch of salt as it is very dated, times have moved on and so should us. I won't deny that there are some very good bible stories each with their own meaningful teachings, but they are that teachings for that purpose. The New Testament is writing around the word and teachings of Christ himself. Some Christians believe in the entire bible and the traditions and values it holds, we call them Catholics (sorry church humour) that is one of the main differences between the 2. I am not denying genesis or the beginning but these are symbolically written stories and are there to give us an idea not to hang on every word.
As an Anglican Church goer Christian we follow the gospels more so than the bible, we don't completely disregard the Old Testament but take it with a pinch of salt as it is very dated, times have moved on and so should us. I won't deny that there are some very good bible stories each with their own meaningful teachings, but they are that teachings for that purpose. The New Testament is writing around the word and teachings of Christ himself. Some Christians believe in the entire bible and the traditions and values it holds, we call them Catholics (sorry church humour) that is one of the main differences between the 2. I am not denying genesis or the beginning but these are symbolically written stories and are there to give us an idea not to hang on every word.
And the loaves and fishes story ? Did it or not happen. New Testament. Lazarus ? Walking on water ? Wedding feast ? All New Testament.
To be fair to Addick in SW16. He believes in Jesus and the instructions from Jesus were to spread this around the world so that is what he and other Jesus followers do.
I think it is difficult for a Christian to get their head around what happens to God loving followers of Islam, Buddha etc etc. And I don't think anyone can answer that as, on the face of it, it goes against the principles of what Jesus was teaching. So, it is a bit of a leading question because it won't ever be adequately answered.
Incidentially, the Muslim faith recognizes Jesus as a prophet but not the Messiah, which is the same as the Jewish faith. The Jewish faith are still waiting.
Of course if you're an atheist this is all bunkum anyway.
As an Anglican Church goer Christian we follow the gospels more so than the bible, we don't completely disregard the Old Testament but take it with a pinch of salt as it is very dated, times have moved on and so should us. I won't deny that there are some very good bible stories each with their own meaningful teachings, but they are that teachings for that purpose. The New Testament is writing around the word and teachings of Christ himself. Some Christians believe in the entire bible and the traditions and values it holds, we call them Catholics (sorry church humour) that is one of the main differences between the 2. I am not denying genesis or the beginning but these are symbolically written stories and are there to give us an idea not to hang on every word.
And the loaves and fishes story ? Did it or not happen. New Testament. Lazarus ? Walking on water ? Wedding feast ? All New Testament.
Absolutely of course it did! Asking a Christian if these things really happened is like asking a scientist if the earth really orbits the sun. To us it is fact, it is what we're taught it's what we know and it is what we believe. However, as I said before I understand how ludicrous it all sounds to those who have different teachings and different beliefs. As I used to think the same, one day it all hit me and I believed, it may happen to some of you one day, it may not. But as long as you're happy and content with your life and the way things happen (which is why I asked the death question) and you're own beliefs, then it is good we are all happy.
My saying goes "I am me, you are you, indifference is a virtue."
But things like feeding all those people and walking on water, don't you think they are just included in the stories by the writers to make people believe in the orders they are putting across.
It comes across like you must do what Jesus/we say....oh really, why's that?....he can walk on water so you must listen....oh ok then.
Comments
Perhaps my stance is based on the idea that for me to believe in Something I have to have either proof or at a minimum a weight of evidence for which I can make up my mind.
What I do not understand is that so many people can believe in something when to all intents and purposes it is like believing in my fairies. The same people are yet cynical about everything else just like us non believers.
This will put them way in front of any 'evidence' religion has offered up.
This article on the BBC today from Will Self may be an interesting addition to the debate.
A Point of View: Why not caring about anything is only for the young
'It is not the content of our beliefs that really matters, so much as the practice of believing itself, argues Will Self'
However will they know what it was that 'banged' in the first place, and what about the 'space' that everything is supposed to have expanded into, did that come from somewhere?
In the struggle to explain the meaning of it all, I suspect neither religion or science will ever supply 'the' answer...there will always and for ever be a titchy bit of space left over for ShootersHillGuru's fairies, be they dressed in white coats or robes.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1314725/As-researchers-prove-Red-Sea-really-parted--How-science-backs-Bibles-best-stories.html
As you point out the religious types will always say that something had to be there before that, which I find quite comical when they believe God created everything so what made God?
(Apologies for recycling this joke).
The whole designer/original plan idea just doesnt hold water for me. Who designed the designer? Has the designer been around since time began? What about natural selection, which is a far more comprehensible and credible idea than creationism?
Warning: This video is very interesting
Could the answer be human selfishness?
What is good for the individual is not always for the common good hence the need for some sort of guide or framework (Bible, Koran, Torah etc) for those who wish to choose "God's" way.
Turtles turtles turtles.
There are a few extremist Christians who DO seem stuck in the past, but we can't really judge mainstream Christianity on them any more than judging mainstream Islam on ISIS. The similarities are far outweighed by the differences.
I don't believe in a Creator and short of direct contact I doubt I ever will, but I am not going to hold being religious against anyone as long as they don't take it to the fanatical, insane militant extreme. The scum who killed Lee Rigby went down for murder, not for being Muslim, and that is how it should be.
what's the point in philosophers sitting up all night arguing about whether there is a god or not, if Charlton Life are going to provide his telephone number the next bloody morning?
I think it is difficult for a Christian to get their head around what happens to God loving followers of Islam, Buddha etc etc. And I don't think anyone can answer that as, on the face of it, it goes against the principles of what Jesus was teaching. So, it is a bit of a leading question because it won't ever be adequately answered.
Incidentially, the Muslim faith recognizes Jesus as a prophet but not the Messiah, which is the same as the Jewish faith. The Jewish faith are still waiting.
Of course if you're an atheist this is all bunkum anyway.
My saying goes "I am me, you are you, indifference is a virtue."
I read letterland once but I don't believe all animals have a letter stuck to them.
It comes across like you must do what Jesus/we say....oh really, why's that?....he can walk on water so you must listen....oh ok then.