Quite often I hear that people don't want 'religion' rammed down their throats but I wonder if the same people have an issue with the likes of Dawkins who are extremely aggressive in putting their views across? If that were an evangelical minister or missionary would it be different? It seems that that is acceptable to people which surprises me because that is his faith or belief or whatever and is put across as 'fact'. Who am I to tell you all that what you believe is rubbish? I very rarely talk about my faith. I live my life and hope that maybe others can experience the purpose, sense of direction, peace, fulfilment, joy etc that I've found and cannot be found in science or money or drugs or anything else I've seen. I guess these are things that I feel faith in Jesus has to offer and would love to share it with others as it is life changing (I have seen it change lives and that can't be denied). What he seems to offer is hostility with nothing worthwhile with the potential to make a positive difference in a person's life. For example, some people come to faith in Jesus and aren't able to kick their drug addiction or depression. But I've seen many that have managed it through their faith. As far as I'm concerned, that alone means that it is well worth sharing my beliefs with others if I sincerely believe it could be for that person's good and not to conform them to my way of thinking or living.
oh dear.... I'm not really sure where to start with this
as i say, i live in a city where around half the white population (around 150 people) are missionary and clearly hold the type of beliefs that you describe at the end of your message.
can you at least see how, as the question is by necessity full of uncertainty, your position comes across as arrogant?
am sure you a lovely person. most Christians i know are... but... for you to think you have a duty to encourage people to think the same way as you is a bit too much for me
sorry
Hi there. I don't really see how it comes across as arrogant or full of uncertainty. I am certain that people's lives have been changed through putting their faith in Jesus. Am I certain that everyone's experience will be the same as mine or anyone else's? No. I know that there is hope in this message, so why should I not be open about something that has the potential to make a huge difference in someone's life. I think that would just be selfish. My way of showing it isn't even by telling people. I just live my daily life and when I'm asked how I deal with situations or how I can be so at peace, fulfilled and happy, then I will tell them. I'm not into telling people who don't want to know.
I wouldn't want people to think the same way as me. How can I put across what I've seen? I've seen people have their lives transformed from drug addiction, crime, depression. It has worked for many and will continue to work for many, many more. Should I keep that to myself?
Also, my point about Dawkins is that he, without question is an evangelist of atheism. He backed a campaign to have atheist views displayed on the side of London buses! If that's not in your face evangelism and arrogance, I don't know what is.
hey. am not interested in dawkins and didn't mention him. am also not atheist.
what piqued my interest in your viewpoint and prompted me to respond to you was the arrogance i perceived in someone (like my missionary pals) who believe they can see "The Truth" and feel the need to share it with others for their own good at every available opportunity.
can you see my point yet? can you see how that would seem arrogant to some/me?
Quite often I hear that people don't want 'religion' rammed down their throats but I wonder if the same people have an issue with the likes of Dawkins who are extremely aggressive in putting their views across? If that were an evangelical minister or missionary would it be different? It seems that that is acceptable to people which surprises me because that is his faith or belief or whatever and is put across as 'fact'. Who am I to tell you all that what you believe is rubbish? I very rarely talk about my faith. I live my life and hope that maybe others can experience the purpose, sense of direction, peace, fulfilment, joy etc that I've found and cannot be found in science or money or drugs or anything else I've seen. I guess these are things that I feel faith in Jesus has to offer and would love to share it with others as it is life changing (I have seen it change lives and that can't be denied). What he seems to offer is hostility with nothing worthwhile with the potential to make a positive difference in a person's life. For example, some people come to faith in Jesus and aren't able to kick their drug addiction or depression. But I've seen many that have managed it through their faith. As far as I'm concerned, that alone means that it is well worth sharing my beliefs with others if I sincerely believe it could be for that person's good and not to conform them to my way of thinking or living.
oh dear.... I'm not really sure where to start with this
as i say, i live in a city where around half the white population (around 150 people) are missionary and clearly hold the type of beliefs that you describe at the end of your message.
can you at least see how, as the question is by necessity full of uncertainty, your position comes across as arrogant?
am sure you a lovely person. most Christians i know are... but... for you to think you have a duty to encourage people to think the same way as you is a bit too much for me
sorry
Hi there. I don't really see how it comes across as arrogant or full of uncertainty. I am certain that people's lives have been changed through putting their faith in Jesus. Am I certain that everyone's experience will be the same as mine or anyone else's? No. I know that there is hope in this message, so why should I not be open about something that has the potential to make a huge difference in someone's life. I think that would just be selfish. My way of showing it isn't even by telling people. I just live my daily life and when I'm asked how I deal with situations or how I can be so at peace, fulfilled and happy, then I will tell them. I'm not into telling people who don't want to know.
I wouldn't want people to think the same way as me. How can I put across what I've seen? I've seen people have their lives transformed from drug addiction, crime, depression. It has worked for many and will continue to work for many, many more. Should I keep that to myself?
Also, my point about Dawkins is that he, without question is an evangelist of atheism. He backed a campaign to have atheist views displayed on the side of London buses! If that's not in your face evangelism and arrogance, I don't know what is.
hey. am not interested in dawkins and didn't mention him. am also not atheist.
what piqued my interest in your viewpoint and prompted me to respond to you was the arrogance i perceived in someone (like my missionary pals) who believe they can see "The Truth" and feel the need to share it with others for their own good at every available opportunity.
can you see my point yet? can you see how that would seem arrogant to some/me?
Absolutely
I can see how it come across as arrogance, but can honestly say that once you've witnessed how life changing something can be, it feels selfish to not talk about it (talk about, not preach. There is a difference). I know people who were told about Jesus through friends and didn't realise how wrong their perceptions were. Knowing Jesus isn't about rules, rituals and regulations. Earlier I quoted a passage from Ephesians that states that salvation is purely through faith and God's grace, which means that there is nothing we can do to earn it. I've seen people realise this and change their lives for the better. I can see how you can see it as arrogant but can't see how I should be expected to remain quiet about something that provides so many millions of people with comfort, purpose, confidence, joy, peace, love... I could go on.
I don't think there is anything wrong with starting a thread asking what people believe in, as long as everyone respects other peoples beliefs and opinions without saying their way is the right way, diversity is one of the things I love about our country and it should be embraced. I am a Christian and proud of it, the church community is a great one to be part of with some of the nicest selfless people I've ever met. Most of my other friends are atheists, I have some Muslim friends too and a Sikh, none of us shove our beliefs down each other's throats but can talk about them freely, same should go here.
I used to be athiest myself, I always joked that if I walked into a church I'd burn, but I found myself involved with church people when I started my charity work and then I started attending church myself and (this will sound cliche) my life started getting better and I was much happier. That is me though, everyone has their own way.
I think thats great Sadie, the community and charity side is brilliant.
However, the actual beliefs (God/Jesus/The Bible), to me, seem absolutely mental.
You could say the same about all sorts of things though... purely hypothetically, take money for example. There is no way a thin bit of paper will ever be physically worth £10,000. But if you sign that cheque, apparently it is. Why? Because we believe it to be, that's the only reason.
Evolution is pretty much a scientific fact nowadays but there are wholes in the theory - for example bats that have echolocation abilities. What are the odds that a bat would spontaneously mutate to have the capacity to generate the echoes, the ears to hear them with, and the brain to process it... then that bat would have to survive, and breed, and all those genes would have to be dominant, or every lady bat our example gets it on with would have to be carrying those exact same genes - all the while other non-echolocating bats of the same species somehow end up living in circumstances where suddenly echolocation is the big difference, and dying out.
You could also look at the dinosaurs - hundreds of millions of years of evolution, and they get wiped out in a freak incident that mammals just so happen to be better suited to surviving, and thus end up top of the evolutionary scale. Pure chance, that's all it is.
This doesn't prove that evolution does not exist, simply that our understanding of it is very, very basic. I do not believe in an omniscient creator being watching us in every moment - but I firmly believe that there is some sort of higher force that human brains will never be able to comprehend in entirety.
Totally get this point of view. There's a long-billed hummingbird in South America that's totally dependent on a trumpet-flowered plant for its survival. Equally the plant is solely dependent on the hummingbird for its pollination and ability to survive. Science goes some way to explain that, creation does too. I think too often there's a competition between creation and science that's so unnecessary. As a Christian I love the explanation that science offers, notwithstanding that it seems to change its mind every 5 minutes. Prefer the balance to the competition.
That'll be because of a thing called "learning", rather than being stuck with the teachings of a book written 600 years after the events, by people with a vested interest in controlling the masses, and never progressing from there. I only recently found out about the books that were left out of the bible, because the editors didn't like what they said...
Religion and religious teachings are all about control.
It has certainly been used that way - but Christianity for one was a rebellious movement when it began, going against the accepted religion and state of the day. I find this thinking a little lazy to be honest - you've got religion in a box so no need to give it any more thought.
Of course science is learning, but your comment about being stuck with the teachings of the bible understates what the bible is to Christians, what the Koran is to Muslems, and so on. I'm quite sure that some people of faith would suggest to you that they hope one day that science would catch up with their God's inspired writing... ;-)
All the suffering, atrocities and hate currently going on in the world and not one faction, group or sect involved could be described as atheist. I hear how peaceful, loving and wonderful religion is regardless which flavour. As an observer all I see is a Catholic Church so rich that it's fortunes could not be counted yet millions in the world are starving. I see Islam waging a war and repressing its people with medieval vigour.
You will forgive me I hope this simplistic take on religion and perhaps see why I view all religion nomatter how wonderful with great scepticism.
Christ on a bike... There's lots of earnest people trying to ram their beliefs and opinions down the throats of people who are just trying to say, "Yes, I have faith".
Hmm. A massively powerful and wealthy lobby whose organisations strive to gain or hold on to power across the globe and have done for thousands of years using war, torture, fear, propaganda and censorship and a reaction to that based on reason and argument - but if those reacting use anything other than the mildest terms or refuse to accept the most facile logic they are accused of aggression against simple faith. Yes, I can see how that would work as well.
All the suffering, atrocities and hate currently going on in the world and not one faction, group or sect involved could be described as atheist. I hear how peaceful, loving and wonderful religion is regardless which flavour. As an observer all I see is a Catholic Church so rich that it's fortunes could not be counted yet millions in the world are starving. I see Islam waging a war and repressing its people with medieval vigour.
You will forgive me I hope this simplistic take on religion and perhaps see why I view all religion nomatter how wonderful with great scepticism.
It is important to distinguish between a religion itself and cynical use of that religion by politically motivated people as a cloak to justify atrocities.
Religion has often been used as a mask for political ends and as a justification of terrorism.
I would accept that the reticence of religious leaders of all types to condemn such acts makes your viewpoint understandable if misguided in my opinion.
Hmm. A massively powerful and wealthy lobby whose organisations strive to gain or hold on to power across the globe and have done for thousands of years using war, torture, fear, propaganda and censorship and a reaction to that based on reason and argument - but if those reacting use anything other than the mildest terms or refuse to accept the most facile logic they are accused of aggression against simple faith. Yes, I can see how that would work as well.
All the suffering, atrocities and hate currently going on in the world and not one faction, group or sect involved could be described as atheist. I hear how peaceful, loving and wonderful religion is regardless which flavour. As an observer all I see is a Catholic Church so rich that it's fortunes could not be counted yet millions in the world are starving. I see Islam waging a war and repressing its people with medieval vigour.
You will forgive me I hope this simplistic take on religion and perhaps see why I view all religion nomatter how wonderful with great scepticism.
It is important to distinguish between a religion itself and cynical use of that religion by politically motivated people as a cloak to justify atrocities.
Religion has often used as a mask for political ends and as a justification of terrorism.
I would accept that the reticence of religious leaders of all types to condemn such acts makes your viewpoint understandable if misguided in my opinion.
I'm not sure if it's as straightforward as that, Len. I think there are at least two factions that can be described as motivated by religion who carry out acts of violence - one are the cynical who see religion as a means to control populations with myths about god and the afterlife, the other are those who because of their "relationship with an almighty" perceive themselves as superior and others who do not hold their beliefs as being in some way less (or less than) human - as defined by themselves. To some extent I prefer the cynical first party - at least they are motivated by simple greed, rather than a (to me) delusion.
As you believe in nothing, you believe that when you die you die, etc. how do you find comfort when a loved one dies? How do you go about life happily if that is all? Just a question, be nice, lol.
All the suffering, atrocities and hate currently going on in the world and not one faction, group or sect involved could be described as atheist. I hear how peaceful, loving and wonderful religion is regardless which flavour. As an observer all I see is a Catholic Church so rich that it's fortunes could not be counted yet millions in the world are starving. I see Islam waging a war and repressing its people with medieval vigour.
You will forgive me I hope this simplistic take on religion and perhaps see why I view all religion nomatter how wonderful with great scepticism.
I agree with what you are saying. I have no idea why the Catholic Church has this image of wealth. That is not what the bible teaches! Jesus was poor and didn't have a home! Why are priests walking around in expensive robes when there are people on their doorsteps without food?! This is not what the bible teaches but maybe a Catholic could explain this as I am not Catholic and don't know a great deal about what they believe. Anyone who for example has read the accounts of Jesus in the gospels will know that this is a million miles away from what the bible teaches. The Bible also says "By their fruit you shall know them." For me anything that has the label of Christianity and doesn't line up with what Jesus did and taught isn't truly of God (can't really speak for other religions) and that includes institutions that ooze unnecessary wealth while there are people across the world starving.
Hmm. A massively powerful and wealthy lobby whose organisations strive to gain or hold on to power across the globe and have done for thousands of years using war, torture, fear, propaganda and censorship and a reaction to that based on reason and argument - but if those reacting use anything other than the mildest terms or refuse to accept the most facile logic they are accused of aggression against simple faith. Yes, I can see how that would work as well.
As you believe in nothing, you believe that when you die you die, etc. how do you find comfort when a loved one dies? How do you go about life happily if that is all? Just a question, be nice, lol.
I know I have one life so I should enjoy it. You, on the other hand, believe you're off to sit on a cloud with God and therefore spend your one precious life pandering to a bloke who is a mythical double act of Santa Claus
I don't think there is anything wrong with starting a thread asking what people believe in, as long as everyone respects other peoples beliefs and opinions without saying their way is the right way, diversity is one of the things I love about our country and it should be embraced. I am a Christian and proud of it, the church community is a great one to be part of with some of the nicest selfless people I've ever met. Most of my other friends are atheists, I have some Muslim friends too and a Sikh, none of us shove our beliefs down each other's throats but can talk about them freely, same should go here.
I used to be athiest myself, I always joked that if I walked into a church I'd burn, but I found myself involved with church people when I started my charity work and then I started attending church myself and (this will sound cliche) my life started getting better and I was much happier. That is me though, everyone has their own way.
I think thats great Sadie, the community and charity side is brilliant.
However, the actual beliefs (God/Jesus/The Bible), to me, seem absolutely mental.
You could say the same about all sorts of things though... purely hypothetically, take money for example. There is no way a thin bit of paper will ever be physically worth £10,000. But if you sign that cheque, apparently it is. Why? Because we believe it to be, that's the only reason.
Evolution is pretty much a scientific fact nowadays but there are wholes in the theory - for example bats that have echolocation abilities. What are the odds that a bat would spontaneously mutate to have the capacity to generate the echoes, the ears to hear them with, and the brain to process it... then that bat would have to survive, and breed, and all those genes would have to be dominant, or every lady bat our example gets it on with would have to be carrying those exact same genes - all the while other non-echolocating bats of the same species somehow end up living in circumstances where suddenly echolocation is the big difference, and dying out.
You could also look at the dinosaurs - hundreds of millions of years of evolution, and they get wiped out in a freak incident that mammals just so happen to be better suited to surviving, and thus end up top of the evolutionary scale. Pure chance, that's all it is.
This doesn't prove that evolution does not exist, simply that our understanding of it is very, very basic. I do not believe in an omniscient creator being watching us in every moment - but I firmly believe that there is some sort of higher force that human brains will never be able to comprehend in entirety.
Totally get this point of view. There's a long-billed hummingbird in South America that's totally dependent on a trumpet-flowered plant for its survival. Equally the plant is solely dependent on the hummingbird for its pollination and ability to survive. Science goes some way to explain that, creation does too. I think too often there's a competition between creation and science that's so unnecessary. As a Christian I love the explanation that science offers, notwithstanding that it seems to change its mind every 5 minutes. Prefer the balance to the competition.
That'll be because of a thing called "learning", rather than being stuck with the teachings of a book written 600 years after the events, by people with a vested interest in controlling the masses, and never progressing from there. I only recently found out about the books that were left out of the bible, because the editors didn't like what they said...
Religion and religious teachings are all about control.
It has certainly been used that way - but Christianity for one was a rebellious movement when it began, going against the accepted religion and state of the day. I find this thinking a little lazy to be honest - you've got religion in a box so no need to give it any more thought.
Of course science is learning, but your comment about being stuck with the teachings of the bible understates what the bible is to Christians, what the Koran is to Muslems, and so on. I'm quite sure that some people of faith would suggest to you that they hope one day that science would catch up with their God's inspired writing... ;-)
I have no idea what most of that means to be honest, particularly the last paragraph. I have considered religion for a very, very long time, looked at how it has held back men of science by fear, kept the masses in poverty by promising them something after their shit lives are over, telling them that they shouldn't worry because that rich bloke you slave away for isn't going to get the reward you are. At the same time selling religious favours to rich people to buy their way into heaven, making up stories of miracles and relics to draw money out of the poorest pilgrims. It is and always has been about control.
As you believe in nothing, you believe that when you die you die, etc. how do you find comfort when a loved one dies? How do you go about life happily if that is all? Just a question, be nice, lol.
I don't believe in nothing, I just don't believe in a deity or supernatural intelligence which shaped us or the universe. For me, trying to behave with decency towards others (sometimes successfully, sometimes not) striving to recognize existence for what it is (or may be) and not trying to hang on to the flashing by of time, fearing the end as if it was a summer holiday and then suddenly it's the last Sunday before the first day of term.
When a loved one dies accepting that that is the way of life for us all brings comfort, if that makes sense.
I am speaking as a "Buddhist" atheist here - and many Buddhists (particularly mahayana) believe in god(s) and would say that I am not a buddhist at all. Which is fine by me.
I have relatives who are profoundly devout Catholics and who are highly intelligent, educated (not necessarily the same thing) and decent people who would probably say that their humanity is largely shaped by their faith - but I believe they would have been decent humane people if they had been atheists, moslems, buddhists or pagans.
I was brought up as a Catholic but as soon as I was old enough to think for myself I became an atheist and I am about 99.9% confident that I am right. However I would never try to impose my beliefs on anyone else and for that reason I can't abide anyone trying to change my beliefs.
What sparked creation ?
I have absolutely no idea and wouldn't even begin to try to understand how life or anything is possible. That way madness lies.
Nonsense.
There are several scientific theories about how life originated - including panspermia, conditions being favourable for it on 3.5 billion year old Earth (or elsewhere in the case of panspermia) and random chance. In fact, random chance has the best mathematical odds of being the origination of creation, since there are an almost infinite number of planets orbiting round an almost infinite number of stars circulating in an almost infinite number of galaxies residing in an almost inifinite number of universes.
Oh absolutely, I believe that life on this planet evolved on this planet through the generally held beliefs in evolution. But what I meant was - what sparked the creation of everything ? And quite specifically, if it was the "big bang" where did the elements that caused that explosion come from ? This is the one thing that I can never really get past. Nothing comes from nothing and there must have been something that created those initial elements and I think, surprisingly, that's a marginally more believable truth than the big bang just happened and all of this followed as a coincidence.
All the suffering, atrocities and hate currently going on in the world and not one faction, group or sect involved could be described as atheist. I hear how peaceful, loving and wonderful religion is regardless which flavour. As an observer all I see is a Catholic Church so rich that it's fortunes could not be counted yet millions in the world are starving. I see Islam waging a war and repressing its people with medieval vigour.
You will forgive me I hope this simplistic take on religion and perhaps see why I view all religion nomatter how wonderful with great scepticism.
I agree with what you are saying. I have no idea why the Catholic Church has this image of wealth. That is not what the bible teaches! Jesus was poor and didn't have a home! Why are priests walking around in expensive robes when there are people on their doorsteps without food?! This is not what the bible teaches but maybe a Catholic could explain this as I am not Catholic and don't know a great deal about what they believe. Anyone who for example has read the accounts of Jesus in the gospels will know that this is a million miles away from what the bible teaches. The Bible also says "By their fruit you shall know them." For me anything that has the label of Christianity and doesn't line up with what Jesus did and taught isn't truly of God (can't really speak for other religions) and that includes institutions that ooze unnecessary wealth while there are people across the world starving.
Again it is important not to conflate the religion itself with the imperfections and schisms of and within its Church.
Pope Francis is preaching and living frugality himself in recognition of this paradox and seeking to use the wealth of the Church in what most would consider a more "Christian" fashion.
Essentially the imperfections within churches, mosques, synagogues etc occur because of human frailties and ambitions. The fact you are religious does not protect you from temptation and sometimes you will succumb to that temptation.
As you believe in nothing, you believe that when you die you die, etc. how do you find comfort when a loved one dies? How do you go about life happily if that is all? Just a question, be nice, lol.
By celebrating their life. You are born, you live, you die. That is it.
I was brought up as a Catholic but as soon as I was old enough to think for myself I became an atheist and I am about 99.9% confident that I am right. However I would never try to impose my beliefs on anyone else and for that reason I can't abide anyone trying to change my beliefs.
What sparked creation ?
I have absolutely no idea and wouldn't even begin to try to understand how life or anything is possible. That way madness lies.
Nonsense.
There are several scientific theories about how life originated - including panspermia, conditions being favourable for it on 3.5 billion year old Earth (or elsewhere in the case of panspermia) and random chance. In fact, random chance has the best mathematical odds of being the origination of creation, since there are an almost infinite number of planets orbiting round an almost infinite number of stars circulating in an almost infinite number of galaxies residing in an almost inifinite number of universes.
Oh absolutely, I believe that life on this planet evolved on this planet through the generally held beliefs in evolution. But what I meant was - what sparked the creation of everything ? And quite specifically, if it was the "big bang" where did the elements that caused that explosion come from ? This is the one thing that I can never really get past. Nothing comes from nothing and there must have been something that created those initial elements and I think, surprisingly, that's a marginally more believable truth than the big bang just happened and all of this followed as a coincidence.
All the suffering, atrocities and hate currently going on in the world and not one faction, group or sect involved could be described as atheist. I hear how peaceful, loving and wonderful religion is regardless which flavour. As an observer all I see is a Catholic Church so rich that it's fortunes could not be counted yet millions in the world are starving. I see Islam waging a war and repressing its people with medieval vigour.
You will forgive me I hope this simplistic take on religion and perhaps see why I view all religion nomatter how wonderful with great scepticism.
It is important to distinguish between a religion itself and cynical use of that religion by politically motivated people as a cloak to justify atrocities.
Religion has often been used as a mask for political ends and as a justification of terrorism.
I would accept that the reticence of religious leaders of all types to condemn such acts makes your viewpoint understandable if misguided in my opinion.
Same old platitudes we've been hearing defending as to why religion has caused more death and suffering than any other man or nature made catastrophe over the centuries. If there was an epitome of what evil is I think the lies and control that religion has wielded would be right up there.
I was brought up as a Catholic but as soon as I was old enough to think for myself I became an atheist and I am about 99.9% confident that I am right. However I would never try to impose my beliefs on anyone else and for that reason I can't abide anyone trying to change my beliefs.
What sparked creation ?
I have absolutely no idea and wouldn't even begin to try to understand how life or anything is possible. That way madness lies.
Nonsense.
There are several scientific theories about how life originated - including panspermia, conditions being favourable for it on 3.5 billion year old Earth (or elsewhere in the case of panspermia) and random chance. In fact, random chance has the best mathematical odds of being the origination of creation, since there are an almost infinite number of planets orbiting round an almost infinite number of stars circulating in an almost infinite number of galaxies residing in an almost inifinite number of universes.
Oh absolutely, I believe that life on this planet evolved on this planet through the generally held beliefs in evolution. But what I meant was - what sparked the creation of everything ? And quite specifically, if it was the "big bang" where did the elements that caused that explosion come from ? This is the one thing that I can never really get past. Nothing comes from nothing and there must have been something that created those initial elements and I think, surprisingly, that's a marginally more believable truth than the big bang just happened and all of this followed as a coincidence.
Several pages of discussion on religion and atheism with very few insults and only a little bad temper. Well done us. Didn't think it would make it past page two.
As you believe in nothing, you believe that when you die you die, etc. how do you find comfort when a loved one dies? How do you go about life happily if that is all? Just a question, be nice, lol.
I believe in a lot of things Sadie, but I have no religious beliefs. I enjoy my life, I will die and that's it, I don't have a problem with dying, just the manner of death. So for me it is more important that people have access to free healthcare, shelter and food than a representative of a god. I want people to have a decent life on earth, hopefully contributing to other peoples lives. If a loved one dies, I get very upset but know that time will lessen the pain. I just don't seem to have any need for anything more.
It's a great thread, good discussion, the few insults let it down a bit. Christians, Jews, atheists, Buddhists and agnostics united. Anymore for anymore? Any Muslims, Sikhs or pagans in the house? There must be at least one Jedi...?
In its own way I think this has been one of the best threads on CL. It's a subject matter close to all our hearts whether we always want to admit it or not, and it has been really good to read people's thoughts and views expressed mainly in an affable and open manner. This site was basically set up as a football forum and yet it is really so much more than that. Can't help thinking CL is pretty impressive sometimes eh :-)
I have no issues with religion, I try to follow Buddhist principles mainly but I struggle sometimes.
What I dislike is organized religion. Doesn't matter the faith they are corrupt, swindling money from people, protecting kiddie fiddlers, murdering people of different beliefs etc
If religion gives you comfort I think this is good but do it with your family in your home.
Comments
Of course science is learning, but your comment about being stuck with the teachings of the bible understates what the bible is to Christians, what the Koran is to Muslems, and so on. I'm quite sure that some people of faith would suggest to you that they hope one day that science would catch up with their God's inspired writing... ;-)
You will forgive me I hope this simplistic take on religion and perhaps see why I view all religion nomatter how wonderful with great scepticism.
Religion has often been used as a mask for political ends and as a justification of terrorism.
I would accept that the reticence of religious leaders of all types to condemn such acts makes your viewpoint understandable if misguided in my opinion.
As you believe in nothing, you believe that when you die you die, etc. how do you find comfort when a loved one dies? How do you go about life happily if that is all? Just a question, be nice, lol.
When a loved one dies accepting that that is the way of life for us all brings comfort, if that makes sense.
I am speaking as a "Buddhist" atheist here - and many Buddhists (particularly mahayana) believe in god(s) and would say that I am not a buddhist at all. Which is fine by me.
I have relatives who are profoundly devout Catholics and who are highly intelligent, educated (not necessarily the same thing) and decent people who would probably say that their humanity is largely shaped by their faith - but I believe they would have been decent humane people if they had been atheists, moslems, buddhists or pagans.
Pope Francis is preaching and living frugality himself in recognition of this paradox and seeking to use the wealth of the Church in what most would consider a more "Christian" fashion.
Essentially the imperfections within churches, mosques, synagogues etc occur because of human frailties and ambitions. The fact you are religious does not protect you from temptation and sometimes you will succumb to that temptation.
Why can't you be happy if that 'is all'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down
Same old platitudes we've been hearing defending as to why religion has caused more death and suffering than any other man or nature made catastrophe over the centuries. If there was an epitome of what evil is I think the lies and control that religion has wielded would be right up there.
If a loved one dies, I get very upset but know that time will lessen the pain. I just don't seem to have any need for anything more.
This site was basically set up as a football forum and yet it is really so much more than that. Can't help thinking CL is pretty impressive sometimes eh :-)
What I dislike is organized religion. Doesn't matter the faith they are corrupt, swindling money from people, protecting kiddie fiddlers, murdering people of different beliefs etc
If religion gives you comfort I think this is good but do it with your family in your home.