With Atheism, I guess the attitude to death is that (depending how old the person was) the deceased was bl**dy lucky to be alive in the 1st place...and in modern day, luckily enough, as a human, the most dominant intelligent animal on the planet.
The life of that loved one, although sad about the passing, I guess, could be celebrated.
I wouldn't say I was an atheist as it's not within me to have that attitude. If someone I loved, for instance, in my immediate family died, realistic or not, I would have to believe they are in a better place and don't think I would be able to face the "reality" to a full degree.
I think there is a narrow minded twat-ness about the likes of people like Richard Dawkins....but end of the day these people are good people as they are trying to dig out the most likely outcome of what appears to be a harsh reality. Takes courage and persistence and hopefully without the ego of it.
I don't believe a bloke called Noah put two (presumably one male and one female) example of every species on a boat and floated around for forty days. I don't believe anyone managed to 'part' the Red sea to allow migrants to cross. I don't believe a bloke was nailed to a cross, died and then came back to life a couple of days later. So i ask the 'believers' are these stories true. ?
I don't believe a bloke called Noah put two (presumably one male and one female) example of every species on a boat and floated around for forty days. I don't believe anyone managed to 'part' the Red sea to allow migrants to cross. I don't believe a bloke was nailed to a cross, died and then came back to life a couple of days later. So i ask the 'believers' are these stories true. ?
And the talking snake, back when it was just Adam and Eve knocking about.
I'll say before I post this, that I have nothing against Catholics, and don't regard them as any different from protestants, jews muslims whatever. I do however have huge issues with the catholic church, and here is an example why. About a year ago the Papacy put together an exhibition of all their collected papers of Galilleo, and various telescopes etc he had owned, and invited the press to a conference to open the exhibition. At some point, one journo asked about how they fely about doing the exhibitio, given that in his lifetime, they threatened to burn him alive when his mathematics led him to point out the earth must logically go round the sun, not the reverse which they wanted to be known. (Given the choices, he naturally recanted). The Vatican spokesman, when asked to explain about this, delightfully suggested there had been 'fault on both sides'. When the journalists asked to expain what, exactly, Galilleo had faulted on, there was silence followed by a change of subject. I suppose this pales into nothing compared with the abuse stories that are still coming out, but for me, it shows that generally (and in the catholic case perpetually) religión would love to keep us enslaved to their eroneous beliefs and superstitions. I will repeat that this is me cheerfully slandering the church, not the individual followers.
As you believe in nothing, you believe that when you die you die, etc. how do you find comfort when a loved one dies? How do you go about life happily if that is all? Just a question, be nice, lol.
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It is an incorrect assumption that someone who is an atheist has a complete lack of belief in anything. Atheists have a belief it just does not a belief in whatever it is you believe as a religious person. Atheists also have values, principles and morals. It is unfortunately the assumption of many religious people that those that don't believe in their particular religion have no important or good rules of life that they live by or are able to find comfort in.
Life is a mystery and the answers are difficult to know. Just because it is a bit of puzzle it does not mean that people have to alight on a theory, just because the question is difficult. Coming up with an absolute answer is not necessary. It may be a more uncomfortable position but that discomfort should not not necessarily be a reason to find an absolute position.
If people do want to do that, that's fine. Respect with different peoples positions is needed.
But then again, to quote Mr Carlin, "What's the point in praying if it's already all been decided in God's 'Divine Plan?' What's the point of being a Supreme Being with a 'Divine Plan' if it can get screwed up by any schmuck with a $2 Prayer Book?"
Sometimes I really wish that people such as the guy you're quoting would either read the bible, ask questions, simply state why they don't believe or not say anything. How can you pull something apart and make arguments against it if you don't know about it? How can you argue against the theology of Christianity or any faith if you haven't read the book and understood it's context? Anyone who has read the bible will know of examples when God has heard the cries of his people and responded. For example, Hannah desperately pleaded and wrestled with God for him to bless her with a child and God responded. The Bible is clear about the power of prayer to change circumstances within his will. He says he longs to give us the desires of our hearts.
I'm reading all these posts with great interest but with increasing bewilderment that those with faith can TRULY believe that, like Addick in SW16 states, what they read in the bible really took place ! And that the example said poster quotes can , without a shadow of doubt, be an undeniable fact! What proof does anyone have that this child was the result of their God's benevolent will as opposed to a good old, normal act of conception /sheer luck ? It's tantamount to stating that all those desperate couples who try everything to conceive without success, have to do is to "plead & wrestle(?) " with "God" and that if said "circumstances are within his will" he will bless them with their longed for child ! Maybe it's time to stick some posters up in the numerous IVF clinics around to share this good news....Unbelievable !
Cards on the table time. As you will have realised by now, I am a non believer However I have few problems with those who DO believe in their God.But when I hear how the power of prayer can "change circumstances", albeit "within his will", my blood boils...It's ultimately saying that prayers of the millions of Jews who were massacred in the Concentration Camps and of the millions of servicemen/women who lost their lives in the 2 World Wars ( to name only 2 instances in recent history) were just not enough for "God" to spare them. The "desires of their heart" - the desire to be saved from an horrendous death & to see their loved ones again- was apparently not enough compared with the desires of Hannah. I rest my case.
By all means believe what you want to believe but please don't insult the intelligence of non believers with such tosh. It merely serves to illustrate the huge gulf between us and the reason why it exists.
Forgive me if it sounds brutally harsh but if I want to read fairy stories, I'll reach for my copy of Grimms....
As you believe in nothing, you believe that when you die you die, etc. how do you find comfort when a loved one dies? How do you go about life happily if that is all? Just a question, be nice, lol.
I think that's where religion gets me a bit. A lot of people are scared of death and never seeing their loved ones again so find faith purely for the comfort.
I personally don't find any comfort when a loved one dies but think we are fortunate enough in this country to say said loved one lived a great life and it becomes a celebration of their life. Obviously it's difficult to find comfort when a loved one dies young but at the same time just by having a roof over their head, food and clean water they've had a better life then the majority of the world.
Just to spin your question back on you because I've always been interested on a Christians viewpoint on this. If you believe that once you die you are going to a place of paradise 10 times better then earth where you see all your loved ones again, are you not really excited to die?
Tried to refrain from commenting on this thread because it's been so civil and I can be a bit of a Hitchens myself so if I say anything out of line please just say
But then again, to quote Mr Carlin, "What's the point in praying if it's already all been decided in God's 'Divine Plan?' What's the point of being a Supreme Being with a 'Divine Plan' if it can get screwed up by any schmuck with a $2 Prayer Book?"
Sometimes I really wish that people such as the guy you're quoting would either read the bible, ask questions, simply state why they don't believe or not say anything. How can you pull something apart and make arguments against it if you don't know about it? How can you argue against the theology of Christianity or any faith if you haven't read the book and understood it's context? Anyone who has read the bible will know of examples when God has heard the cries of his people and responded. For example, Hannah desperately pleaded and wrestled with God for him to bless her with a child and God responded. The Bible is clear about the power of prayer to change circumstances within his will. He says he longs to give us the desires of our hearts.
George Carlin was raised Catholic. I suspect he was more than familiar with the bible.
With a clearly poor understanding of the key themes of the book. I find it hard to believe that he knows the bible with comments like that. I have given an example from the bible that demonstrates my point.
That highlights perfectly the futility of a discussion about religion between someone who believes in it, and someone who doesn't. If the bible was 'true' then there wouldn't need to be an 'interpretation' of the themes in it. You can 'interpret' a book like 1984 however you want - because it's a 'fictional' book. You can't 'interpret' the Haynes Manual for a 1984 Ford Cortina - because it's a 'factual' book.
If you just take the bible as a bunch of stories to live your life by - I have no problem with that. I have problems with the content of a lot of them, and it's frankly ridiculous to live your life by some of them 2000 years later as they have zero relevance to how we live today - but as a concept, if you just take the 'peace and love' and ignore the 'eye for an eye' stuff, that's great.
What I do have an issue with, is people attempting to 'justify' their faith by trying to 'prove' that God exists. Surely, if God DOES exist, then why do you need to prove it?
All I'm saying is that you can't pull apart the theology of the bible unless you've read it. That should be obvious. And the idea that you don't need to study a book that is factual to understand it better is ridiculous.
But then again, to quote Mr Carlin, "What's the point in praying if it's already all been decided in God's 'Divine Plan?' What's the point of being a Supreme Being with a 'Divine Plan' if it can get screwed up by any schmuck with a $2 Prayer Book?"
Sometimes I really wish that people such as the guy you're quoting would either read the bible, ask questions, simply state why they don't believe or not say anything. How can you pull something apart and make arguments against it if you don't know about it? How can you argue against the theology of Christianity or any faith if you haven't read the book and understood it's context? Anyone who has read the bible will know of examples when God has heard the cries of his people and responded. For example, Hannah desperately pleaded and wrestled with God for him to bless her with a child and God responded. The Bible is clear about the power of prayer to change circumstances within his will. He says he longs to give us the desires of our hearts.
George Carlin was raised Catholic. I suspect he was more than familiar with the bible.
With a clearly poor understanding of the key themes of the book. I find it hard to believe that he knows the bible with comments like that. I have given an example from the bible that demonstrates my point.
That highlights perfectly the futility of a discussion about religion between someone who believes in it, and someone who doesn't. If the bible was 'true' then there wouldn't need to be an 'interpretation' of the themes in it. You can 'interpret' a book like 1984 however you want - because it's a 'fictional' book. You can't 'interpret' the Haynes Manual for a 1984 Ford Cortina - because it's a 'factual' book.
If you just take the bible as a bunch of stories to live your life by - I have no problem with that. I have problems with the content of a lot of them, and it's frankly ridiculous to live your life by some of them 2000 years later as they have zero relevance to how we live today - but as a concept, if you just take the 'peace and love' and ignore the 'eye for an eye' stuff, that's great.
What I do have an issue with, is people attempting to 'justify' their faith by trying to 'prove' that God exists. Surely, if God DOES exist, then why do you need to prove it?
Again, I would argue that before you can say that the bible has no relevance today, you'd have to read it and know what is in it. Good teaching is eternal. The New Testament is full of truths that are completely relevant to 21st century Britain. Not wasting time storing up material possessions to achieve fulfilment as it leads nowhere. Putting love first and putting the needs of others before you own needs. These things are very relevant in today's society where so many are broken, searching for an answer, thinking that it will come with money, a new car, a new job. But there is still emptiness. And I don't need to prove God exists. It is down to him to reveal himself. As Sadie said, it is down to your own journey when God chooses to reveal himself, but he will not force himself on you.
thanks for reply and honesty (but as a good Christian I'd expect nothing less, right
so.... in saying this:
"Yes (I believe i have found THE TRUTH). There are lots of theories out there and they can't all be true. I strongly believe that in Jesus I've found the answer."
You also believe that all those other theories (e.g. Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Taoists, pantheists, athiests etc.) are wrong and adherents to those faiths are wrong in their world view.
is that also a correct representation of your views?
again, i promise you this is all meant in the good spirit of this fine thread.
I don't really see the point in this question because I feel the answer is rather obvious, but in the spirit of the thread, here goes: Yes, if I am a Christian I believe I've chosen the truth and that truth doesn't lie in other religions, but the same can be said of many, if not all major religions (including atheism). I believe that Jesus can and does reach out to people of all religions and backgrounds. I don't believe that all of these people of other religions will be condemned to eternal damnation.
But then again, to quote Mr Carlin, "What's the point in praying if it's already all been decided in God's 'Divine Plan?' What's the point of being a Supreme Being with a 'Divine Plan' if it can get screwed up by any schmuck with a $2 Prayer Book?"
Sometimes I really wish that people such as the guy you're quoting would either read the bible, ask questions, simply state why they don't believe or not say anything. How can you pull something apart and make arguments against it if you don't know about it? How can you argue against the theology of Christianity or any faith if you haven't read the book and understood it's context? Anyone who has read the bible will know of examples when God has heard the cries of his people and responded. For example, Hannah desperately pleaded and wrestled with God for him to bless her with a child and God responded. The Bible is clear about the power of prayer to change circumstances within his will. He says he longs to give us the desires of our hearts.
George Carlin was raised Catholic. I suspect he was more than familiar with the bible.
With a clearly poor understanding of the key themes of the book. I find it hard to believe that he knows the bible with comments like that. I have given an example from the bible that demonstrates my point.
That highlights perfectly the futility of a discussion about religion between someone who believes in it, and someone who doesn't. If the bible was 'true' then there wouldn't need to be an 'interpretation' of the themes in it. You can 'interpret' a book like 1984 however you want - because it's a 'fictional' book. You can't 'interpret' the Haynes Manual for a 1984 Ford Cortina - because it's a 'factual' book.
I don't believe a bloke called Noah put two (presumably one male and one female) example of every species on a boat and floated around for forty days. I don't believe anyone managed to 'part' the Red sea to allow migrants to cross. I don't believe a bloke was nailed to a cross, died and then came back to life a couple of days later. So i ask the 'believers' are these stories true. ?
I'll throw in another one. If Adam and Eve were the first humans and Eve gave birth to Cain and Able and possibly Seth? How did all the humans in the world come about? Essentially, did Cain or Able or possibly Seth shag their Mum?
As you believe in nothing, you believe that when you die you die, etc. how do you find comfort when a loved one dies? How do you go about life happily if that is all? Just a question, be nice, lol. --------------
By accepting that when you die, that's it and you're gone, it makes you appreciate every day being alive even more. There's no heaven awaiting us so make the most of what we have.
The idea that you need religion to go about happily in life is crazy and borderline offensive - I'm happy with the tangible things in life, spending time with my kids, listening to music, cheering a goal, spending time with friends and family... I don't need to believe in a higher being to heighten my happiness in life.
When a loved one dies it's sad, desperately sad, but often our grief is personal anyway and I can see that believing in heaven could help soften that emotion but still... If the individual in question has had an amazing life and they died naturally at an old age then it's sad for us personally, but time to celebrate what they had on this earth. If it's someone dying prematurely or through upsetting means then that is horrible and depressing but the idea of comforting ourselves with "they've gone to a better place" wouldn't make the timing of their death here any less upsetting.
There are plenty of nasty non-believers, and plenty of nasty believers. Equally there are many amazingly kind hearted and good people that both believe and don't believe. To try and imply that being of religion makes you a nicer person or gives you a better set of guidelines to lead your life is both laughable and offensive.
One of my biggest problems with people defending their faith, and we've seen it on this thread many times already, is that they dismiss other religions or beliefs but then say theirs is right... stuff like (made up but illustrative quotes before you search for them)...
"Oh I don't agree with Catholics, they take things too far and I don't agree with how literally they take it"
"The Old Testament isn't something to live your life by or take seriously, those that do are religious extremists unlike me! Of course god wouldn't REALLY encourage rape/murder/incest/etc"
"Those traditional rabbi who suck the blood out of a baby's penis are sick! That's taking religion too far!"
"Those extremist muslims that believe there'll be 72 virgins waiting for them after they're dead, wow, that's just misguided. Everyone knows the real heaven is where you get to meet all your dead relatives again..."
"The Roman gods are from a time when people didn't realise that there was only one true Lord, you can't bring those obviously fake gods into the argument when we're talking about modern day religion..."
followed by
"My God... my God... oh yeah that's all true though. Of course Jesus rose from the dead. You just don't understand, my God is real compared to the other 2,800 that man has recorded over the years because... because... er... he found me...... and proof?? The proof is there in the Bible!! (the bits that I want to take literally anyway and believe in anyway..)
Surely religion isn't pick and mix? You can't take a bit of this and a bit of that. You either believe or you don't?
Also the way that footballers (and people from all walks of life) thank god for their performance, or scoring a goal, drives me mad - the fact they can dismiss all the hard work and effort they've put in throughout their life leading up to this moment, and then thank an imaginary being as though it couldn't have been done without "him"!
Finally... I genuinely find it hilarious that earlier in this thread someone used a passage from the Bible to "prove" that god does miracles... hilarious and a little depressing.
I don't believe a bloke called Noah put two (presumably one male and one female) example of every species on a boat and floated around for forty days. I don't believe anyone managed to 'part' the Red sea to allow migrants to cross. I don't believe a bloke was nailed to a cross, died and then came back to life a couple of days later. So i ask the 'believers' are these stories true. ?
I'll throw in another one. If Adam and Eve were the first humans and Eve gave birth to Cain and Able and possibly Seth? How did all the humans in the world come about? Essentially, did Cain or Able or possibly Seth shag their Mum?
Not sure, does the bible state whether they had Norwich accents?
I've enjoyed being part of this thread. Thank you for not completely shooting down my beliefs and for taking the time to read what I've said. I didn't think this thread would last 24 hours, but it says great things that we can have a frank and open discussion about sensitive issues without offending one another. I believe in Jesus and I believe he has a lot to offer us in 21st century Britain as I've experienced and witnessed it. I'm going to take a break from this thread now as it has been pretty time consuming but if you'd like to ask me more questions, tell me why you think I'm wrong, or find out more, please PM me and I'll respond as soon as I can. If not, I'm sure our paths will cross on other threads, perhaps football related ones. Now I'm off to find out if Delort has finally signed. :-)
I've enjoyed being part of this thread. Thank you for not completely shooting down my beliefs and for taking the time to read mine. I didn't think this thread would last 24 hours, but it says great things that we can have a frank and open discussion about sensitive issues without offending one another. I believe in Jesus and I believe he has a lot to offer us in 21st century Britain as I've experienced and witnessed it. I'm going to take a break from this thread now as it has been pretty time consuming but if you'd like to ask me more questions, tell me why you think I'm wrong, or to find out more, please PM me and I'll respond as soon as I can. If not, I'm sure our paths will cross on other threads, perhaps football related ones. Now I'm off to find out if Delort has finally signed. :-)
Of course if i were a cynic ? I could say you were bottling out of the debate because you arguments have more holes than a string vest.
The 'solace in a loved one's death' argument is one I often hear from people who have organised religion in their lives. I think you'll find that most people who describe themselves as 'atheists' are, in fact, 'agnostic'. This means they don't believe in 'God', but are perfectly willing to do so if they are presented with evidence. I think most people (though this certainly isn't true of ALL people) who aren't religious probably believe that 'consciounsess' can't easily be explained by science and are willing to believe in 'something' else after you die.
Just to return to a fundamental, and a nod towards science and philosophy. This will be clumsy too, but I believe the first words of the Christian Bible is;
'in the beginning'
The 'beginning', I mean what is that all about? Science is going for it with the hadron collider, and big bang theories, or evolution, religion is going for it with God. Issac Azimov goes for it by saying a circle has no beginning or end, ta dah! However that is the fundamental mystery isn't it...the beginning...? Not being able to suss that one out leads to the notion of faith from the religious, and endless scientific exploration. Neither science nor religion are going to convince all of the people they have solved the problem of 'the beginning'.
Maybe the meaning of life is to try to come to terms with the meaning of life.
For many it is 'sod that, I'm going for hedonism'.
Just as we have religion and science, we also have morality and something loosely defined as civilization. I reckon I know why we are moral, and strive to be civilized, but as for science and religion...I am pretty well baffled.
I've enjoyed being part of this thread. Thank you for not completely shooting down my beliefs and for taking the time to read mine. I didn't think this thread would last 24 hours, but it says great things that we can have a frank and open discussion about sensitive issues without offending one another. I believe in Jesus and I believe he has a lot to offer us in 21st century Britain as I've experienced and witnessed it. I'm going to take a break from this thread now as it has been pretty time consuming but if you'd like to ask me more questions, tell me why you think I'm wrong, or to find out more, please PM me and I'll respond as soon as I can. If not, I'm sure our paths will cross on other threads, perhaps football related ones. Now I'm off to find out if Delort has finally signed. :-)
Of course if i were a cynic ? I could say you were bottling out of the debate because you arguments have more holes than a string vest.
I'm so glad you're not a cynic. I have a life to get on with and have offered you all the opportunity to PM me and will respond but it might not be within the next 24 hours. Ciao. :-)
It's not debating school Daggs, people have been open with their beliefs and what's important to them. No one needs to be pulled apart over it.
Whoops i've overstepped the Charlton Life mark........... Of course it's a debate. There are folk on here who insist God exists. There are others who see it as total crap. I'm asking for explanations and justifications from the God squad for things i see as total nonsense. I'm still here. I've not scuttled off defeated.
Comments
The life of that loved one, although sad about the passing, I guess, could be celebrated.
I wouldn't say I was an atheist as it's not within me to have that attitude. If someone I loved, for instance, in my immediate family died, realistic or not, I would have to believe they are in a better place and don't think I would be able to face the "reality" to a full degree.
I think there is a narrow minded twat-ness about the likes of people like Richard Dawkins....but end of the day these people are good people as they are trying to dig out the most likely outcome of what appears to be a harsh reality. Takes courage and persistence and hopefully without the ego of it.
Solly
Bikey
Ben Haim
Wiggins
Gudmundsson
Buyens
Jackson
Cousins
Vetokele
Tucudean
Pope
Wilson
Morrison
Moussa
Harriott
Pigott
Fox
I don't believe anyone managed to 'part' the Red sea to allow migrants to cross.
I don't believe a bloke was nailed to a cross, died and then came back to life a couple of days later.
So i ask the 'believers' are these stories true. ?
About a year ago the Papacy put together an exhibition of all their collected papers of Galilleo, and various telescopes etc he had owned, and invited the press to a conference to open the exhibition. At some point, one journo asked about how they fely about doing the exhibitio, given that in his lifetime, they threatened to burn him alive when his mathematics led him to point out the earth must logically go round the sun, not the reverse which they wanted to be known. (Given the choices, he naturally recanted). The Vatican spokesman, when asked to explain about this, delightfully suggested there had been 'fault on both sides'. When the journalists asked to expain what, exactly, Galilleo had faulted on, there was silence followed by a change of subject.
I suppose this pales into nothing compared with the abuse stories that are still coming out, but for me, it shows that generally (and in the catholic case perpetually) religión would love to keep us enslaved to their eroneous beliefs and superstitions.
I will repeat that this is me cheerfully slandering the church, not the individual followers.
For all those that are atheists;
As you believe in nothing, you believe that when you die you die, etc. how do you find comfort when a loved one dies? How do you go about life happily if that is all? Just a question, be nice, lol.
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It is an incorrect assumption that someone who is an atheist has a complete lack of belief in anything. Atheists have a belief it just does not a belief in whatever it is you believe as a religious person. Atheists also have values, principles and morals. It is unfortunately the assumption of many religious people that those that don't believe in their particular religion have no important or good rules of life that they live by or are able to find comfort in.
Life is a mystery and the answers are difficult to know. Just because it is a bit of puzzle it does not mean that people have to alight on a theory, just because the question is difficult. Coming up with an absolute answer is not necessary. It may be a more uncomfortable position but that discomfort should not not necessarily be a reason to find an absolute position.
If people do want to do that, that's fine. Respect with different peoples positions is needed.
Cards on the table time. As you will have realised by now, I am a non believer However I have few problems with those who DO believe in their God.But when I hear how the power of prayer can "change circumstances", albeit "within his will", my blood boils...It's ultimately saying that prayers of the millions of Jews who were massacred in the Concentration Camps and of the millions of servicemen/women who lost their lives in the 2 World Wars ( to name only 2 instances in recent history) were just not enough for "God" to spare them. The "desires of their heart" - the desire to be saved from an horrendous death & to see their loved ones again- was apparently not enough compared with the desires of Hannah. I rest my case.
By all means believe what you want to believe but please don't insult the intelligence of non believers with such tosh. It merely serves to illustrate the huge gulf between us and the reason why it exists.
Forgive me if it sounds brutally harsh but if I want to read fairy stories, I'll reach for my copy of Grimms....
I personally don't find any comfort when a loved one dies but think we are fortunate enough in this country to say said loved one lived a great life and it becomes a celebration of their life. Obviously it's difficult to find comfort when a loved one dies young but at the same time just by having a roof over their head, food and clean water they've had a better life then the majority of the world.
Just to spin your question back on you because I've always been interested on a Christians viewpoint on this. If you believe that once you die you are going to a place of paradise 10 times better then earth where you see all your loved ones again, are you not really excited to die?
Tried to refrain from commenting on this thread because it's been so civil and I can be a bit of a Hitchens myself so if I say anything out of line please just say
Essentially, did Cain or Able or possibly Seth shag their Mum?
For all those that are atheists;
As you believe in nothing, you believe that when you die you die, etc. how do you find comfort when a loved one dies? How do you go about life happily if that is all? Just a question, be nice, lol.
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By accepting that when you die, that's it and you're gone, it makes you appreciate every day being alive even more. There's no heaven awaiting us so make the most of what we have.
The idea that you need religion to go about happily in life is crazy and borderline offensive - I'm happy with the tangible things in life, spending time with my kids, listening to music, cheering a goal, spending time with friends and family... I don't need to believe in a higher being to heighten my happiness in life.
When a loved one dies it's sad, desperately sad, but often our grief is personal anyway and I can see that believing in heaven could help soften that emotion but still... If the individual in question has had an amazing life and they died naturally at an old age then it's sad for us personally, but time to celebrate what they had on this earth. If it's someone dying prematurely or through upsetting means then that is horrible and depressing but the idea of comforting ourselves with "they've gone to a better place" wouldn't make the timing of their death here any less upsetting.
There are plenty of nasty non-believers, and plenty of nasty believers. Equally there are many amazingly kind hearted and good people that both believe and don't believe. To try and imply that being of religion makes you a nicer person or gives you a better set of guidelines to lead your life is both laughable and offensive.
One of my biggest problems with people defending their faith, and we've seen it on this thread many times already, is that they dismiss other religions or beliefs but then say theirs is right... stuff like (made up but illustrative quotes before you search for them)...
"Oh I don't agree with Catholics, they take things too far and I don't agree with how literally they take it"
"The Old Testament isn't something to live your life by or take seriously, those that do are religious extremists unlike me! Of course god wouldn't REALLY encourage rape/murder/incest/etc"
"Those traditional rabbi who suck the blood out of a baby's penis are sick! That's taking religion too far!"
"Those extremist muslims that believe there'll be 72 virgins waiting for them after they're dead, wow, that's just misguided. Everyone knows the real heaven is where you get to meet all your dead relatives again..."
"The Roman gods are from a time when people didn't realise that there was only one true Lord, you can't bring those obviously fake gods into the argument when we're talking about modern day religion..."
followed by
"My God... my God... oh yeah that's all true though. Of course Jesus rose from the dead. You just don't understand, my God is real compared to the other 2,800 that man has recorded over the years because... because... er... he found me...... and proof?? The proof is there in the Bible!! (the bits that I want to take literally anyway and believe in anyway..)
Surely religion isn't pick and mix? You can't take a bit of this and a bit of that. You either believe or you don't?
Also the way that footballers (and people from all walks of life) thank god for their performance, or scoring a goal, drives me mad - the fact they can dismiss all the hard work and effort they've put in throughout their life leading up to this moment, and then thank an imaginary being as though it couldn't have been done without "him"!
Finally... I genuinely find it hilarious that earlier in this thread someone used a passage from the Bible to "prove" that god does miracles... hilarious and a little depressing.
I tried to stay nice, sorry @sadiejane1981
http://www.kingschurch.eu/bigobjections/index.php#media
Of course if i were a cynic ? I could say you were bottling out of the debate because you arguments have more holes than a string vest.
'in the beginning'
The 'beginning', I mean what is that all about?
Science is going for it with the hadron collider, and big bang theories, or evolution, religion is going for it with God. Issac Azimov goes for it by saying a circle has no beginning or end, ta dah!
However that is the fundamental mystery isn't it...the beginning...? Not being able to suss that one out leads to the notion of faith from the religious, and endless scientific exploration. Neither science nor religion are going to convince all of the people they have solved the problem of 'the beginning'.
Maybe the meaning of life is to try to come to terms with the meaning of life.
For many it is 'sod that, I'm going for hedonism'.
Just as we have religion and science, we also have morality and something loosely defined as civilization. I reckon I know why we are moral, and strive to be civilized, but as for science and religion...I am pretty well baffled.
Of course it's a debate. There are folk on here who insist God exists. There are others who see it as total crap.
I'm asking for explanations and justifications from the God squad for things i see as total nonsense.
I'm still here. I've not scuttled off defeated.