@cafcnick1992 It is absolutely thinking for myself I choose to believe these teachings and take comfort from it as some others on here take comfort in their own beliefs, please don't belittle a good thread by bringing in ignorance, we are all being civil and having a civilised intelligent discussion without insults, please if you ask a question which you are well within your right to do so, do it without insults, thank you.
I'm a non believer, but the thing I hold on to is the fact that many previous atheists, non believers, whatever, with probably a similar mindset to what I, and a lot of other people have now, have converted to Christianity as an adult and feel better and are grateful for it. I know good smart people that have done that personally.
I would say that's something very unlikely to happen to me, but I'm gana say that, and I don't know for sure.
Sadie, a genuinely non confrontational question. My Dad taught me that all blacks and Germans should be killed at birth. I grew up for a while believing him. It's what I was taught and it was what I believed. But life taught me that my beliefs needed to be constantly checked out in the light of experience. Were my views still valid, were they examples of false belief systems. what did I need to rethink or change etc etc.? Did you go through the same processes, and if it is not too personal a question, why did you continue to believe in the teachings of one particular church?
Sadie, there's having a conversation about religion and then there's having a conversation with someone who believes a man can walk on the surface of water. I mean come on.
You cannot tell me that you've sat down, thought about it, then decided it probably happened. It goes against all logic.
I'm a non believer, but the thing I hold on to is the fact that many previous atheists, non believers, whatever, with probably a similar mindset to what I, and a lot of other people have now, have converted to Christianity as an adult and feel better and are grateful for it. I know good smart people that have done that personally.
I would say that's something very unlikely to happen to me, but I'm gana say that, and I don't know for sure.
Exactly, I was one of them, at school I used to give my RS teacher a real hard time as I told her I don't want religion rammed down my throat, I done some horrible things to her and wouldn't set foot in a church, my school friends are shocked that I go to church and believe in Jesus, if I can change my beliefs anyone can, an open mind is a wonderful thing.
The fact that all these 'religions' sprang up in times when people were less enlightened than they are now is what causes me to question their validity in this day and age. To draw a parallel, if Christianity sprang up now, it would be looked on the same as David Icke is now. Most of what Icke says is no more outlandish than most of what the bible says - we're conditioned to ridicule Icke, why not Christianity? It's just that it's been around a lot longer than Icke has, and has got a bunch more followers.
Because religion is protected from criticism and anyone who dares question it is "narrow-minded", "disrespectful" or a "bigot". The only bigotted people are the liberal bigots who do the accusing.
I'd question whether or not some folks of today are 'enlightened' but I get your drift. It's the point that Betrand Russell tackled when he proposed a religion based on belief in flying teapots. What I don't get is why some highly intelligent people continue to have a religious belief. They are not daft, far from it, a highly renowned Marxist historian is a practising RC. To me it's obviously quite absurd, but I really would like to understand.
I'd question whether or not some folks of today are 'enlightened' but I get your drift. It's the point that Betrand Russell tackled when he proposed a religion based on belief in flying teapots. What I don't get is why some highly intelligent people continue to have a religious belief. They are not daft, far from it, a highly renowned Marxist historian is a practising RC. To me it's obviously quite absurd, but I really would like to understand.
We're singing from the same hymn sheet, Anni !
For those who state they have seen the light/been converted as opposed to mainly following in their parents' footsteps etc , would anyone be happy to briefly describe what happened to make them believe ?
Seriously, I would be interested to hear your experiences.
Because religion is protected from criticism and anyone who dares question it is "narrow-minded", "disrespectful" or a "bigot". The only bigotted people are the liberal bigots who do the accusing.
That's bollocks though. There's people who would say anyone who identifies as religious (in any faith/denomination) is stupid/brainwashed/believes fairy tales/doesn't believe in science at all - that's pretty bigoted. The vast majority of Catholics were as horrified as anyone at the scale of the coverup of the abuse SOME (a tiny minority) priests subjected children too - but you'd get people who'd claim that all Catholics condone it, if they're not actively part of it themselves.
Bigotry is bigotry, I have no time for anyone who decides that their particular viewpoint on religion is correct and anyone who disagrees is an idiot/heretic etc. That goes for militant atheists as much as extremists of any religious creed. Religion is most certainly not protected from criticism - or this thread would have been closed long ago.
Because religion is protected from criticism and anyone who dares question it is "narrow-minded", "disrespectful" or a "bigot". The only bigotted people are the liberal bigots who do the accusing.
Because religion is protected from criticism and anyone who dares question it is "narrow-minded", "disrespectful" or a "bigot". The only bigotted people are the liberal bigots who do the accusing.
That's bollocks though. There's people who would say anyone who identifies as religious (in any faith/denomination) is stupid/brainwashed/believes fairy tales/doesn't believe in science at all - that's pretty bigoted. The vast majority of Catholics were as horrified as anyone at the scale of the coverup of the abuse SOME (a tiny minority) priests subjected children too - but you'd get people who'd claim that all Catholics condone it, if they're not actively part of it themselves.
Bigotry is bigotry, I have no time for anyone who decides that their particular viewpoint on religion is correct and anyone who disagrees is an idiot/heretic etc. That goes for militant atheists as much as extremists of any religious creed. Religion is most certainly not protected from criticism - or this thread would have been closed long ago.
Oh I highly suspect that's because we're addressing Christianity in this forum in a relatively nice part of the world. You want to start addressing the legitimacy of Islam and discussing whether it has any place in the 21st century? No i didn't think so you "islamaphobe...etc...etc."
Sadie, a genuinely non confrontational question. My Dad taught me that all blacks and Germans should be killed at birth. I grew up for a while believing him. It's what I was taught and it was what I believed. But life taught me that my beliefs needed to be constantly checked out in the light of experience. Were my views still valid, were they examples of false belief systems. what did I need to rethink or change etc etc.? Did you go through the same processes, and if it is not too personal a question, why did you continue to believe in the teachings of one particular church?
It's not just about mindset it's about what feels right, I should imagine being taught that Germans and blacks should be killed at birth didn't feel right, you and your own life experience, thoughts and feelings would have told you that was wrong. When I found Christ to sound cliche again, it felt right, I felt content and comfortable. It's like meeting your soulmate you just know.
Because religion is protected from criticism and anyone who dares question it is "narrow-minded", "disrespectful" or a "bigot". The only bigotted people are the liberal bigots who do the accusing.
That's bollocks though. There's people who would say anyone who identifies as religious (in any faith/denomination) is stupid/brainwashed/believes fairy tales/doesn't believe in science at all - that's pretty bigoted. The vast majority of Catholics were as horrified as anyone at the scale of the coverup of the abuse SOME (a tiny minority) priests subjected children too - but you'd get people who'd claim that all Catholics condone it, if they're not actively part of it themselves.
Bigotry is bigotry, I have no time for anyone who decides that their particular viewpoint on religion is correct and anyone who disagrees is an idiot/heretic etc. That goes for militant atheists as much as extremists of any religious creed. Religion is most certainly not protected from criticism - or this thread would have been closed long ago.
Oh I highly suspect that's because we're addressing Christianity in this forum in a relatively nice part of the world. You want to start addressing the legitimacy of Islam and discussing whether it has any place in the 21st century? No i didn't think so you "islamaphobe...etc...etc."
Of course Islam has a place in the 21st century, it's a faith, a religion, a way of life to many millions of people, most of them as generous and decent and fair and peaceable as anyone else is and would not dream of starting a fight over their beliefs. What doesn't have a place in the 21st century is extremism - and it's extremists who hit the headlines
Well I, for one, don't think that the pracitising of halal meat has any place in the 21st century and that is practised by 100% of muslims.
FGM is also commonly practised in the faith and is a horrendous act.
Halal meat is a way that Muslims slaughter the animals, they feel that a sacrificial prayer needs to be said each time an animal is slaughtered for food, said animal needs to hear prayer so is not stunned before slaughter, I don't agree with it but understand why they do it.
Agreed that FGM is disgusting and cruel but that is not a Muslim thing it is a culteral thing that is practised in some African countries amongst their women be they Muslim Christian or Jewish.
Well I, for one, don't think that the pracitising of halal meat has any place in the 21st century and that is practised by 100% of muslims.
FGM is also commonly practised in the faith and is a horrendous act.
Your entitled to your opinion on Halal meat, though it's hardly any more horrendous than what many animals go through before their chopped up and turned in to McBurgerDonaldKing's processed crap.
FGM I agree is despicable - though I'd like to see some statistics before I am convinced it's 'common practice' and not amongst smaller offsets rather than being the accepted way. There's honour killings too, which I despise, but the fact remains people of all beliefs and all views have committed terrible acts on other human beings - religion is not the root cause of all the horror mankind likes to inflict on itself.
In any case, I certainly would not ever agree that because you don't like the concept and practice of halal meat, Islam has no place at all. That's reductive and small-minded, frankly, and doesn't help anyone.
There is a paradox in that the followers of something intangible, spiritual and based on faith, namely religion, are asked to prove factually that God exists by those who dispute that (s) he does.
It is very tempting sometimes to give the obvious answer and say to those asserting that God does not exist that they should prove it.
However that is something of a cop out and there is a duty to inform if one is so able to allow people to make up their own minds. That is all that Addick in SW16 and Sadie have been doing, very well in my view, on this thread.
As far as I know the Bible does not purport to be a historic document as such more a guide to live your life. That said there is archaeological evidence to substantiate and support some of what is chronicled in the Bible and also to authenticate the time when it was written. Science has subsequently verified and confirmed some assertions within the Bible too which provide illustrations of the prophetic nature of it.
Such evidence is unlikely to satisfy non- believers but it does exist.
Someone above said that the existence of God is not logical. Actually it is and eminent philosophers have formulated logical arguments for the existence of God.
Whether such logical "proof" is sufficient is another debate.
Ultimately religious faith is personal and a human right although, I mention in passing, that so called equality rights trump religious rights when tested in court.
The rights and wrongs of that are yet another debate but do give the lie to the assertion that "liberals" cannot attack religion.
Well I, for one, don't think that the pracitising of halal meat has any place in the 21st century and that is practised by 100% of muslims.
FGM is also commonly practised in the faith and is a horrendous act.
Your entitled to your opinion on Halal meat, though it's hardly any more horrendous than what many animals go through before their chopped up and turned in to McBurgerDonaldKing's processed crap.
FGM I agree is despicable - though I'd like to see some statistics before I am convinced it's 'common practice' and not amongst smaller offsets rather than being the accepted way. There's honour killings too, which I despise, but the fact remains people of all beliefs and all views have committed terrible acts on other human beings - religion is not the root cause of all the horror mankind likes to inflict on itself.
In any case, I certainly would not ever agree that because you don't like the concept and practice of halal meat, Islam has no place at all. That's reductive and small-minded, frankly, and doesn't help anyone.
How is that reductive and small minded? The mass slaughter of animals in the most painful way possible is now mainstream, almost entirely thanks to islam.
Well I, for one, don't think that the pracitising of halal meat has any place in the 21st century and that is practised by 100% of muslims.
FGM is also commonly practised in the faith and is a horrendous act.
Your entitled to your opinion on Halal meat, though it's hardly any more horrendous than what many animals go through before their chopped up and turned in to McBurgerDonaldKing's processed crap.
FGM I agree is despicable - though I'd like to see some statistics before I am convinced it's 'common practice' and not amongst smaller offsets rather than being the accepted way. There's honour killings too, which I despise, but the fact remains people of all beliefs and all views have committed terrible acts on other human beings - religion is not the root cause of all the horror mankind likes to inflict on itself.
In any case, I certainly would not ever agree that because you don't like the concept and practice of halal meat, Islam has no place at all. That's reductive and small-minded, frankly, and doesn't help anyone.
How is that reductive and small minded? The mass slaughter of animals in the most painful way possible is now mainstream, almost entirely thanks to islam.
Because as with Christianity and Buddhism and Sikhism and all the other faiths and religions, many, many people have been spurred to charity and generosity and true heroism by their beliefs. People have survived and gotten through many terrible things with what they consider the power of their religion (as is their right) and what right has anyone to take that away from them? Mass slaughter of animals in unimaginably painful and degrading ways is by no means exclusive to halal, and thinking you can justify deriding someone's values and beliefs and their way of life because you don't like the fact they kill animals in a certain way is daft. You don't have to approve - I don't either. But that doesn't give you the right to judge men and women you've never met and never will based on one particular aspect of their religion.
All those debating the subject on this thread are not stopping on anyone from speaking and the term ''liberals" attacking religion is an unfortunate way of putting things.
Does someone with a religious belief have the 'right' to discriminate against or attack someone because their belief or religious belief says so. Where does it stop ? There is always a careful balance to be struck. Someones right to a belief should not activately make someone else's life miserable or worse. Usually a careful balance can be struck if all parties are sensible and don't try to impose their belief. It doesn't always happen though unfortunately.
From wiki (halal meat ) for those that don't know.
The food must come from a supplier that uses halal practices. Specifically, the slaughter must be performed by a Muslim, who must precede the slaughter by invoking the name of Allah, most commonly by saying "Bismillah" ("In the name of God") and then three times "Allahu akbar" (God is the greatest). Then, the animal must be slaughtered with a sharp knife by cutting the throat, windpipe and the blood vessels in the neck, causing the animal’s death without cutting the spinal cord. Lastly, the blood from the veins must be drained.
You see, Muslims cannot eat animal blood this way they ensure there is none, the pray is like Christians with holy water the pray makes it sacred, what is so terrible about it? Live and let live. You don't have to eat halal meat just like they don't have to eat mistreated cattle reared in crates. It again is a life choice.
And................How did Noah gather animals that were not indigenous to the Middle East, such as polar bears, penguins and sea lions ;-)
I think most religions have moved on from there and accept that stories about Noah and Adam and Eve are fables / myths. Even Jesus* actually refuted some of the teachings of the Old Testament. He condensed the ten commandments into two basic principles I.e. love thy neighbour and I forget the second, and he refuted the 'an eye for an eye' principle.
*when I say Jesus I mean the teachings of Christ as recorded in the New Testament. There is no historical certainty that Jesus existed. The Christian philosophy of treating others as you would wish to be treated is one that we should all live by. It's the stuff about being the son of god that leaves me cold.
"Many people have been spurred to charity and generosity and true heroism by their beliefs."
Likewise many non-religious people do exactly the same. I'm not sure why those people doing it in the name of religion have any more legitimacy than those not doing it in so.
"People have survived and gotten through many terrible things with what they consider the power of their religion"
They may very well believe that but we all know that religion had no role it in whatsoever therefore I fail to see the relevance.
"But that doesn't give you the right to judge men and women you've never met and never will based on one particular aspect of their religion."
Why? It shows them up for having a total lack of morals (ironically). I know a lot of animals probably don't have a brilliant life but two wrongs don't make a right and halal slaughter is barbaric and TOTALLY unnecessary. It is a competely selfish act.
Comments
I would say that's something very unlikely to happen to me, but I'm gana say that, and I don't know for sure.
You cannot tell me that you've sat down, thought about it, then decided it probably happened. It goes against all logic.
For those who state they have seen the light/been converted as opposed to mainly following in their parents' footsteps etc , would anyone be happy to briefly describe what happened to make them believe ?
Seriously, I would be interested to hear your experiences.
Bigotry is bigotry, I have no time for anyone who decides that their particular viewpoint on religion is correct and anyone who disagrees is an idiot/heretic etc. That goes for militant atheists as much as extremists of any religious creed. Religion is most certainly not protected from criticism - or this thread would have been closed long ago.
....and before our Christian friends ask, yes, he has read the Bible.
FGM is also commonly practised in the faith and is a horrendous act.
Agreed that FGM is disgusting and cruel but that is not a Muslim thing it is a culteral thing that is practised in some African countries amongst their women be they Muslim Christian or Jewish.
FGM I agree is despicable - though I'd like to see some statistics before I am convinced it's 'common practice' and not amongst smaller offsets rather than being the accepted way. There's honour killings too, which I despise, but the fact remains people of all beliefs and all views have committed terrible acts on other human beings - religion is not the root cause of all the horror mankind likes to inflict on itself.
In any case, I certainly would not ever agree that because you don't like the concept and practice of halal meat, Islam has no place at all. That's reductive and small-minded, frankly, and doesn't help anyone.
It is very tempting sometimes to give the obvious answer and say to those asserting that God does not exist that they should prove it.
However that is something of a cop out and there is a duty to inform if one is so able to allow people to make up their own minds. That is all that Addick in SW16 and Sadie have been doing, very well in my view, on this thread.
As far as I know the Bible does not purport to be a historic document as such more a guide to live your life. That said there is archaeological evidence to substantiate and support some of what is chronicled in the Bible and also to authenticate the time when it was written. Science has subsequently verified and confirmed some assertions within the Bible too which provide illustrations of the prophetic nature of it.
Such evidence is unlikely to satisfy non- believers but it does exist.
Someone above said that the existence of God is not logical. Actually it is and eminent philosophers have formulated logical arguments for the existence of God.
Whether such logical "proof" is sufficient is another debate.
Ultimately religious faith is personal and a human right although, I mention in passing, that so called equality rights trump religious rights when tested in court.
The rights and wrongs of that are yet another debate but do give the lie to the assertion that "liberals" cannot attack religion.
Does someone with a religious belief have the 'right' to discriminate against or attack someone because their belief or religious belief says so. Where does it stop ? There is always a careful balance to be struck. Someones right to a belief should not activately make someone else's life miserable or worse. Usually a careful balance can be struck if all parties are sensible and don't try to impose their belief. It doesn't always happen though unfortunately.
The food must come from a supplier that uses halal practices. Specifically, the slaughter must be performed by a Muslim, who must precede the slaughter by invoking the name of Allah, most commonly by saying "Bismillah" ("In the name of God") and then three times "Allahu akbar" (God is the greatest). Then, the animal must be slaughtered with a sharp knife by cutting the throat, windpipe and the blood vessels in the neck, causing the animal’s death without cutting the spinal cord. Lastly, the blood from the veins must be drained.
You see, Muslims cannot eat animal blood this way they ensure there is none, the pray is like Christians with holy water the pray makes it sacred, what is so terrible about it? Live and let live. You don't have to eat halal meat just like they don't have to eat mistreated cattle reared in crates. It again is a life choice.
*when I say Jesus I mean the teachings of Christ as recorded in the New Testament. There is no historical certainty that Jesus existed. The Christian philosophy of treating others as you would wish to be treated is one that we should all live by. It's the stuff about being the son of god that leaves me cold.
Likewise many non-religious people do exactly the same. I'm not sure why those people doing it in the name of religion have any more legitimacy than those not doing it in so.
"People have survived and gotten through many terrible things with what they consider the power of their religion"
They may very well believe that but we all know that religion had no role it in whatsoever therefore I fail to see the relevance.
"But that doesn't give you the right to judge men and women you've never met and never will based on one particular aspect of their religion."
Why? It shows them up for having a total lack of morals (ironically). I know a lot of animals probably don't have a brilliant life but two wrongs don't make a right and halal slaughter is barbaric and TOTALLY unnecessary. It is a competely selfish act.