A. Been going to church since before I was born, although I made a very conscious commitment to Christ when I was about 16, and have since gone on to become a Lay Minister. My conversion to Charlton was far later on in life (about three and a half years ago)! :-)
J, I believe when we die the constituents of which we are made gradually become part of the natural ecosystem. Our energy is reabsorbed and reused. However we would not have consciousness or awareness. As one individual being we would be dead but as a multitude of elements we live on.
I respect the beliefs of others but do not believe in God etc.
J, I believe when we die the constituents of which we are made gradually become part of the natural ecosystem. Our energy is reabsorbed and reused. However we would not have consciousness or awareness. As one individual being we would be dead but as a multitude of elements we live on.
I respect the beliefs of others but do not believe in God etc.
For those who claims there are holes in the science, I think it's fair to say that pretty much all scientists agree on evolution.
And there are many Christians who believe in evolution and don't feel the bible in any says that evolution didn't/doesn't happen. All the Christians I know embrace science as they have nothing to fear because If God created the universe, all things will ultimately point to that. Also, my understanding is that the great Charles Darwin himself was not an atheist.
According to his autobigoraphy he was. When writing the Origin he said "The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an Agnostic."
But 20 years later "disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct."
Like many other former believers, he found the problem of evil insoluble. If God is omnipotent he has the power to end evil (disease, natural disaster, man's inhumanity to man). If God is all-loving he would want humans to suffer less or not at all. Therefore God cannot be omnipotent and all-loving.
When doing my philosophy degree I read lost of Christians on the problem of evil. IMO not one of them was able to deal with it.
Thank you for clearing up the Darwin info. Regarding the state of the world and how a loving god could allow evil, pain, suffering etc., I believe that God has given us free will and life without him (which humanity to an extent has chosen) means we are independent and distance from him means we can't expect him to bail us out even though it hurts him to see what's happening. Jesus himself (indisputably) suffered more than most of us could possibly imagine. You could call me a Jesus freak, but I wholeheartedly believe that God is all loving and that it pains him to see what's happening in the world he created to be a place of peace, love and unity. I don't mean to impose my beliefs and don't often talk about it but just felt I had to put that side across.
Did you come across Swinburne in your studies Jints?
I make no claims one way or the other but as an ex philosophy student you might find it an interesting read if you have not encountered him previously.
Len, yes indeed. Swinburne had been a member of the philosophy department at my university for many years, leaving just a year or two before I arrived so he was widely referred to.
I think his argument is entirely unconvincing. He boils down to the assertion that evil exist to give us the opportunity to do good. If God hadn't created cancer, says Swinburne, then humanity woudl have no opportunity to conquer cancer through research its causes and treatment. I find this a superficial and, TBH, rather nauseating approach. We are like rats in God's laboratory. An earthquake here and there or a Hiroshima is a learning experience for us.
For those who claims there are holes in the science, I think it's fair to say that pretty much all scientists agree on evolution.
And there are many Christians who believe in evolution and don't feel the bible in any says that evolution didn't/doesn't happen. All the Christians I know embrace science as they have nothing to fear because If God created the universe, all things will ultimately point to that. Also, my understanding is that the great Charles Darwin himself was not an atheist.
According to his autobigoraphy he was. When writing the Origin he said "The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an Agnostic."
But 20 years later "disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct."
Like many other former believers, he found the problem of evil insoluble. If God is omnipotent he has the power to end evil (disease, natural disaster, man's inhumanity to man). If God is all-loving he would want humans to suffer less or not at all. Therefore God cannot be omnipotent and all-loving.
When doing my philosophy degree I read lost of Christians on the problem of evil. IMO not one of them was able to deal with it.
Thank you for clearing up the Darwin info. Regarding the state of the world and how a loving god could allow evil, pain, suffering etc., I believe that God has given us free will and life without him (which humanity to an extent has chosen) means we are independent and distance from him means we can't expect him to bail us out even though it hurts him to see what's happening. Jesus himself (indisputably) suffered more than most of us could possibly imagine. You could call me a Jesus freak, but I wholeheartedly believe that God is all loving and that it pains him to see what's happening in the world he created to be a place of peace, love and unity. I don't mean to impose my beliefs and don't often talk about it but just felt I had to put that side across.
I am in no way suggesting that illness or disabilities are as a result of one person's disobedience towards God as I don't believe that at all
For those who claims there are holes in the science, I think it's fair to say that pretty much all scientists agree on evolution.
And there are many Christians who believe in evolution and don't feel the bible in any says that evolution didn't/doesn't happen. All the Christians I know embrace science as they have nothing to fear because If God created the universe, all things will ultimately point to that. Also, my understanding is that the great Charles Darwin himself was not an atheist.
According to his autobigoraphy he was. When writing the Origin he said "The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an Agnostic."
But 20 years later "disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct."
Like many other former believers, he found the problem of evil insoluble. If God is omnipotent he has the power to end evil (disease, natural disaster, man's inhumanity to man). If God is all-loving he would want humans to suffer less or not at all. Therefore God cannot be omnipotent and all-loving.
When doing my philosophy degree I read lost of Christians on the problem of evil. IMO not one of them was able to deal with it.
Thank you for clearing up the Darwin info. Regarding the state of the world and how a loving god could allow evil, pain, suffering etc., I believe that God has given us free will and life without him (which humanity to an extent has chosen) means we are independent and distance from him means we can't expect him to bail us out even though it hurts him to see what's happening. Jesus himself (indisputably) suffered more than most of us could possibly imagine. You could call me a Jesus freak, but I wholeheartedly believe that God is all loving and that it pains him to see what's happening in the world he created to be a place of peace, love and unity. I don't mean to impose my beliefs and don't often talk about it but just felt I had to put that side across.
Sure, that's the standard Christian response. But
(a) it doesn't deal with non-man made evils - teh Blakc death, the Lisbo earthquake etc
(b) God's wish to allow us free will may justify the evil we do to ourselves through poor choices but not to others (murdering babies in the holocaust etc). In the Old Testament, it appears that God actually orders atrocities including the murder of children, the rape of women and girls and the ethnic cleansing of cities and regions (see Johsua for instance).
I woudl never call you a Jesus freak. You believe what you believe and I hope it makes you happy.
I love the old religious debate, always one of the best forms of conversation imo.
Hopefully I don't offend anyone as I'm quite open minded, just not easily convinced of something. I'd say F with a bit of D. I don't believe that there is a god that is nice and rewards you for doing good and let's you into his home. Without sounding harsh, he would have to be a pretty disgusting person to give someone the chance to live (as they say) and to then play games and decide its fate to either eternal bliss or doom. Take Gaza for example. Tons of innocent people dying and for what? Do they get immunity from hell as they haven't had their full life to prove themselves? What about pedos and serial killers? Does God want people to be raped and killed to send a message? I don't buy it. When you have a kid you give it free will to an extent. You would intervene if it was in a fight, you would lend money if he/she was in debt, you would sacrifice yourself for your child no questions. A true parents love is unmatched by any other kind of bond. If we were Gods children surely there would be no one in debt, no killings etc as he would create people with good natures and would never allow his children to suffer for the sake of some game. More to the point why would people want to live a life that is apparently 'required' to such a sick idea anyway. Sorry to say but I believe that a very creative man wrote the bible. He was ahead of his time and a great story teller. I also reckon Jesus was the worlds very first magician and a great one that couldn't be sussed out cause people didn't understand it at the time. And that's no disrespect, I think magicians are brilliant.
Now that 'that' god is out of the way I do believe there is A God, but he/she/it comes in many forms and can't quite be explained. I won't even attempt either but as we all know the universe is massive and there is not a chance that we're the only beings in/on/within it, I don't believe we're here by luck. I don't believe that nothingness just suddenly become something. I am also not scared of the process of dying, but the thought of being dead forever is very scary for me. I know you wouldn't know when you're dead anyway but it sounds very boring. I really enjoy playing my xbox, having a kick about, spending time with my girlfriend and family etc, the thought of just losing all that in an instance is pretty shitty.
My friends theory is that there is a god out there and we're a failed project, his theory is that a God thought of us, was putting it all together, fucked up somewhere and couldn't undo it and cleared off to another part of the universe to try something new. Which is on par of the belief of being accepted into heaven for doing good in my eyes.
That said I do understand why people are religious, it's a safety cushion and the thought of dying is not nice so I don't blame anyone for trying to find an answer. It's not for me though.
The only atheist argument I have never had time for is that religion alone is the root of evil/war etc, when that is provably false. Mao Zedong engineered a famine that wiped out 20million people, Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge systematically murdered around 2million, some say up to a quarter of the entire population of Cambodia at the time, there are other examples, these were nothing to do with religion. There have been serial killers and assassins and gangsters and scum who never once considered religion a reason to act as they did.
People have done great wrong in the name of religion, it's undeniable... but there's been so much evil done by humans to other humans that anyone who thinks no religion would result in sudden utopia is as militant and dogmatic as the religious fanatics who give peaceful, generous believers a bad name.
The Christian response to the suffering in the world varies, I too studied philosophy at degreeth level and at the time thought the whole "if God is all knowing and all powerful then he can't be all good, if he is all good and all powerful then he isn't all powerful and if he is all powerful and all good then he must not be all knowing" was absolute spot on. However now I see things differently, I believe that we as a universe are left to our own devices, he doesn't make us rich or give us good health but gives us the strength to fight illness and the tools for wealth, he doesn't stop natural disasters and lets nature run is course but helps us and guides us through it. I don't think God caused the slaying of innocent children in the war, he would have been there for them after death and kept their souls safe, he would have given the parents strength to carry on and hope in the faith that there is life after death and so on. I will stop here because I don't really want to preach on CL, just that for every theory and opinion there will be an opposing one.
A's probably the closest for me, although whilst I was brought up in the church it was very much a personal decision for me to maintain faith. I don't frequent church any more for complicated reasons, but I still believe in the same.
I do have sympathy with those who don't want to have religion forced on them - in fact I passionately believe it's not something that should be forced on people. I do have a faith though, and there's something about good news that makes you want people to share it - so I'm comfortable with people that take a similar view and are happy to talk about it evangelically, provided that it's my decision for faith not theirs - if you know what I mean.
A personal view is that militant atheism is a bit silly. If you choose not to believe anything, fair enough, your choice - but to try to persuade those of faith to abandon it makes you as bad if not worse than those wanting to share their good news. In fact worse, because you're trying to make people swallow your bad news, and you're doing exactly the same thing as those you apparently abhor. Shame on you. Great youtube from the agnostic David Mitchell on that incidentally.
I'm an atheist. I'm amazed that so many intelligent people believe in God - it seems as likely to me as pink unicorns and teapots in orbit around the sun. However, I am not at all miltant about it and really dislike the way Dawkins and friends are so unplesantly aggressive about religious people.
The only thing I really hate (in the UK) is state-funded schools are allowed to decide admission based on the religion of a child's parents.
I don't like that either, as all children are athiests. You can't brand a child a jew or a muslim.
I think children are agnostic, not atheists - that implies they made a decision already. I think any religion is a decision for adulthood, however I know a lot of Christian kids and they could teach us a thing or two about how to treat your fellow man. Really.
I don't think there is anything wrong with starting a thread asking what people believe in, as long as everyone respects other peoples beliefs and opinions without saying their way is the right way, diversity is one of the things I love about our country and it should be embraced. I am a Christian and proud of it, the church community is a great one to be part of with some of the nicest selfless people I've ever met. Most of my other friends are atheists, I have some Muslim friends too and a Sikh, none of us shove our beliefs down each other's throats but can talk about them freely, same should go here.
I used to be athiest myself, I always joked that if I walked into a church I'd burn, but I found myself involved with church people when I started my charity work and then I started attending church myself and (this will sound cliche) my life started getting better and I was much happier. That is me though, everyone has their own way.
I think thats great Sadie, the community and charity side is brilliant.
However, the actual beliefs (God/Jesus/The Bible), to me, seem absolutely mental.
You could say the same about all sorts of things though... purely hypothetically, take money for example. There is no way a thin bit of paper will ever be physically worth £10,000. But if you sign that cheque, apparently it is. Why? Because we believe it to be, that's the only reason.
Evolution is pretty much a scientific fact nowadays but there are wholes in the theory - for example bats that have echolocation abilities. What are the odds that a bat would spontaneously mutate to have the capacity to generate the echoes, the ears to hear them with, and the brain to process it... then that bat would have to survive, and breed, and all those genes would have to be dominant, or every lady bat our example gets it on with would have to be carrying those exact same genes - all the while other non-echolocating bats of the same species somehow end up living in circumstances where suddenly echolocation is the big difference, and dying out.
You could also look at the dinosaurs - hundreds of millions of years of evolution, and they get wiped out in a freak incident that mammals just so happen to be better suited to surviving, and thus end up top of the evolutionary scale. Pure chance, that's all it is.
This doesn't prove that evolution does not exist, simply that our understanding of it is very, very basic. I do not believe in an omniscient creator being watching us in every moment - but I firmly believe that there is some sort of higher force that human brains will never be able to comprehend in entirety.
Totally get this point of view. There's a long-billed hummingbird in South America that's totally dependent on a trumpet-flowered plant for its survival. Equally the plant is solely dependent on the hummingbird for its pollination and ability to survive. Science goes some way to explain that, creation does too. I think too often there's a competition between creation and science that's so unnecessary. As a Christian I love the explanation that science offers, notwithstanding that it seems to change its mind every 5 minutes. Prefer the balance to the competition.
For those who claims there are holes in the science, I think it's fair to say that pretty much all scientists agree on evolution.
And there are many Christians who believe in evolution and don't feel the bible in any says that evolution didn't/doesn't happen. All the Christians I know embrace science as they have nothing to fear because If God created the universe, all things will ultimately point to that. Also, my understanding is that the great Charles Darwin himself was not an atheist.
According to his autobigoraphy he was. When writing the Origin he said "The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an Agnostic."
But 20 years later "disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct."
Like many other former believers, he found the problem of evil insoluble. If God is omnipotent he has the power to end evil (disease, natural disaster, man's inhumanity to man). If God is all-loving he would want humans to suffer less or not at all. Therefore God cannot be omnipotent and all-loving.
When doing my philosophy degree I read lost of Christians on the problem of evil. IMO not one of them was able to deal with it.
Thank you for clearing up the Darwin info. Regarding the state of the world and how a loving god could allow evil, pain, suffering etc., I believe that God has given us free will and life without him (which humanity to an extent has chosen) means we are independent and distance from him means we can't expect him to bail us out even though it hurts him to see what's happening. Jesus himself (indisputably) suffered more than most of us could possibly imagine. You could call me a Jesus freak, but I wholeheartedly believe that God is all loving and that it pains him to see what's happening in the world he created to be a place of peace, love and unity. I don't mean to impose my beliefs and don't often talk about it but just felt I had to put that side across.
I personally am an atheist- I do not believe in anything like a higher power or a god etc.
I would hope everyone would respect my views (and most do, to be fair), just as I respect anyone who does believe in a religion.
I have no problem whatsoever with religion, and can recognise that christian values (for example) are generally a good set of principles to live by. I do have a problem when people try and ram whatever opinion they have - religious or not - down my throat.
I don't think there is anything wrong with starting a thread asking what people believe in, as long as everyone respects other peoples beliefs and opinions without saying their way is the right way, diversity is one of the things I love about our country and it should be embraced. I am a Christian and proud of it, the church community is a great one to be part of with some of the nicest selfless people I've ever met. Most of my other friends are atheists, I have some Muslim friends too and a Sikh, none of us shove our beliefs down each other's throats but can talk about them freely, same should go here.
I used to be athiest myself, I always joked that if I walked into a church I'd burn, but I found myself involved with church people when I started my charity work and then I started attending church myself and (this will sound cliche) my life started getting better and I was much happier. That is me though, everyone has their own way.
I think thats great Sadie, the community and charity side is brilliant.
However, the actual beliefs (God/Jesus/The Bible), to me, seem absolutely mental.
You could say the same about all sorts of things though... purely hypothetically, take money for example. There is no way a thin bit of paper will ever be physically worth £10,000. But if you sign that cheque, apparently it is. Why? Because we believe it to be, that's the only reason.
Evolution is pretty much a scientific fact nowadays but there are wholes in the theory - for example bats that have echolocation abilities. What are the odds that a bat would spontaneously mutate to have the capacity to generate the echoes, the ears to hear them with, and the brain to process it... then that bat would have to survive, and breed, and all those genes would have to be dominant, or every lady bat our example gets it on with would have to be carrying those exact same genes - all the while other non-echolocating bats of the same species somehow end up living in circumstances where suddenly echolocation is the big difference, and dying out.
You could also look at the dinosaurs - hundreds of millions of years of evolution, and they get wiped out in a freak incident that mammals just so happen to be better suited to surviving, and thus end up top of the evolutionary scale. Pure chance, that's all it is.
This doesn't prove that evolution does not exist, simply that our understanding of it is very, very basic. I do not believe in an omniscient creator being watching us in every moment - but I firmly believe that there is some sort of higher force that human brains will never be able to comprehend in entirety.
Totally get this point of view. There's a long-billed hummingbird in South America that's totally dependent on a trumpet-flowered plant for its survival. Equally the plant is solely dependent on the hummingbird for its pollination and ability to survive. Science goes some way to explain that, creation does too. I think too often there's a competition between creation and science that's so unnecessary. As a Christian I love the explanation that science offers, notwithstanding that it seems to change its mind every 5 minutes. Prefer the balance to the competition.
Science to me is excellent for explaining how things happen - but not necessarily why. You can hook someone up to a machine that will measure someone's brainwaves to see what happens when they talk about someone they love, but there is no scientific theory for why one person should fall for (as an example) one short brunette with brown eyes when there are lots of others who have the same description. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say - no Hadron Collider will ever discover a molecule of Beauty, yet no-one doubts it exists.
For me, this is exactly the way it should be - accepting there are things we cannot understand and can't control is fundamental to truly understanding our place in the universe.
For those who claims there are holes in the science, I think it's fair to say that pretty much all scientists agree on evolution.
And there are many Christians who believe in evolution and don't feel the bible in any says that evolution didn't/doesn't happen. All the Christians I know embrace science as they have nothing to fear because If God created the universe, all things will ultimately point to that. Also, my understanding is that the great Charles Darwin himself was not an atheist.
According to his autobigoraphy he was. When writing the Origin he said "The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an Agnostic."
But 20 years later "disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct."
Like many other former believers, he found the problem of evil insoluble. If God is omnipotent he has the power to end evil (disease, natural disaster, man's inhumanity to man). If God is all-loving he would want humans to suffer less or not at all. Therefore God cannot be omnipotent and all-loving.
When doing my philosophy degree I read lost of Christians on the problem of evil. IMO not one of them was able to deal with it.
Thank you for clearing up the Darwin info. Regarding the state of the world and how a loving god could allow evil, pain, suffering etc., I believe that God has given us free will and life without him (which humanity to an extent has chosen) means we are independent and distance from him means we can't expect him to bail us out even though it hurts him to see what's happening. Jesus himself (indisputably) suffered more than most of us could possibly imagine. You could call me a Jesus freak, but I wholeheartedly believe that God is all loving and that it pains him to see what's happening in the world he created to be a place of peace, love and unity. I don't mean to impose my beliefs and don't often talk about it but just felt I had to put that side across.
HE , IT WHATEVER DOES NOT EXIST!!!
Surely "it" can't be an it if "it" doesn't exist. It just isn't.
I don't think there is anything wrong with starting a thread asking what people believe in, as long as everyone respects other peoples beliefs and opinions without saying their way is the right way, diversity is one of the things I love about our country and it should be embraced. I am a Christian and proud of it, the church community is a great one to be part of with some of the nicest selfless people I've ever met. Most of my other friends are atheists, I have some Muslim friends too and a Sikh, none of us shove our beliefs down each other's throats but can talk about them freely, same should go here.
I used to be athiest myself, I always joked that if I walked into a church I'd burn, but I found myself involved with church people when I started my charity work and then I started attending church myself and (this will sound cliche) my life started getting better and I was much happier. That is me though, everyone has their own way.
I think thats great Sadie, the community and charity side is brilliant.
However, the actual beliefs (God/Jesus/The Bible), to me, seem absolutely mental.
You could say the same about all sorts of things though... purely hypothetically, take money for example. There is no way a thin bit of paper will ever be physically worth £10,000. But if you sign that cheque, apparently it is. Why? Because we believe it to be, that's the only reason.
Evolution is pretty much a scientific fact nowadays but there are wholes in the theory - for example bats that have echolocation abilities. What are the odds that a bat would spontaneously mutate to have the capacity to generate the echoes, the ears to hear them with, and the brain to process it... then that bat would have to survive, and breed, and all those genes would have to be dominant, or every lady bat our example gets it on with would have to be carrying those exact same genes - all the while other non-echolocating bats of the same species somehow end up living in circumstances where suddenly echolocation is the big difference, and dying out.
You could also look at the dinosaurs - hundreds of millions of years of evolution, and they get wiped out in a freak incident that mammals just so happen to be better suited to surviving, and thus end up top of the evolutionary scale. Pure chance, that's all it is.
This doesn't prove that evolution does not exist, simply that our understanding of it is very, very basic. I do not believe in an omniscient creator being watching us in every moment - but I firmly believe that there is some sort of higher force that human brains will never be able to comprehend in entirety.
Totally get this point of view. There's a long-billed hummingbird in South America that's totally dependent on a trumpet-flowered plant for its survival. Equally the plant is solely dependent on the hummingbird for its pollination and ability to survive. Science goes some way to explain that, creation does too. I think too often there's a competition between creation and science that's so unnecessary. As a Christian I love the explanation that science offers, notwithstanding that it seems to change its mind every 5 minutes. Prefer the balance to the competition.
That'll be because of a thing called "learning", rather than being stuck with the teachings of a book written 600 years after the events, by people with a vested interest in controlling the masses, and never progressing from there. I only recently found out about the books that were left out of the bible, because the editors didn't like what they said...
Religion and religious teachings are all about control.
I don't think there is anything wrong with starting a thread asking what people believe in, as long as everyone respects other peoples beliefs and opinions without saying their way is the right way, diversity is one of the things I love about our country and it should be embraced. I am a Christian and proud of it, the church community is a great one to be part of with some of the nicest selfless people I've ever met. Most of my other friends are atheists, I have some Muslim friends too and a Sikh, none of us shove our beliefs down each other's throats but can talk about them freely, same should go here.
I used to be athiest myself, I always joked that if I walked into a church I'd burn, but I found myself involved with church people when I started my charity work and then I started attending church myself and (this will sound cliche) my life started getting better and I was much happier. That is me though, everyone has their own way.
I think thats great Sadie, the community and charity side is brilliant.
However, the actual beliefs (God/Jesus/The Bible), to me, seem absolutely mental.
You could say the same about all sorts of things though... purely hypothetically, take money for example. There is no way a thin bit of paper will ever be physically worth £10,000. But if you sign that cheque, apparently it is. Why? Because we believe it to be, that's the only reason.
Evolution is pretty much a scientific fact nowadays but there are wholes in the theory - for example bats that have echolocation abilities. What are the odds that a bat would spontaneously mutate to have the capacity to generate the echoes, the ears to hear them with, and the brain to process it... then that bat would have to survive, and breed, and all those genes would have to be dominant, or every lady bat our example gets it on with would have to be carrying those exact same genes - all the while other non-echolocating bats of the same species somehow end up living in circumstances where suddenly echolocation is the big difference, and dying out.
You could also look at the dinosaurs - hundreds of millions of years of evolution, and they get wiped out in a freak incident that mammals just so happen to be better suited to surviving, and thus end up top of the evolutionary scale. Pure chance, that's all it is.
This doesn't prove that evolution does not exist, simply that our understanding of it is very, very basic. I do not believe in an omniscient creator being watching us in every moment - but I firmly believe that there is some sort of higher force that human brains will never be able to comprehend in entirety.
Totally get this point of view. There's a long-billed hummingbird in South America that's totally dependent on a trumpet-flowered plant for its survival. Equally the plant is solely dependent on the hummingbird for its pollination and ability to survive. Science goes some way to explain that, creation does too. I think too often there's a competition between creation and science that's so unnecessary. As a Christian I love the explanation that science offers, notwithstanding that it seems to change its mind every 5 minutes. Prefer the balance to the competition.
That'll be because of a thing called "learning", rather than being stuck with the teachings of a book written 600 years after the events, by people with a vested interest in controlling the masses, and never progressing from there. I only recently found out about the books that were left out of the bible, because the editors didn't like what they said...
Religion and religious teachings are all about control.
Sorry, that is completely untrue. The books that were "left out of the bible" were never part of the original cannon. Many of them are clearly not in line with what the bible teaches and the authorship of them has never been established. I don't see my faith as a way of being controlled. I wish I could convey they immense freedom I've had since coming to faith. Christianity isn't about rigid rules and rituals, it is about a relationship with God and that is all God is after. I know that God doesn't seek to control me but created me to be me and helps me be who I am, truly unique.
I am an Athiest. I don't 'believe' in that. It's what i know to be true. There is no God, never has been. The whole religion thing is mumbo-jumbo nonsense. (and by that i mean ALL religions) I didn't start this way. I was brought up in Christian family. True, they were not fully practising Christians. But they seemed to 'believe' As i grew older, i began to find religion ridiculous. Gradually i drifted away until i decided i was indeed, unquestionably Athiest. I don't need to seek justification of what i know to be right. I don't need religion to live morally. A particular incident always comes to mind when i hear people talking of God. The Asian tsunami: I asked a religous aquaintance. Why did God allow the tsunami? The answer was vague but essentially 'God cannot prevent all disasters' So I asked. Why didn't God warn the people of what was coming? The answer was vague but returned to the 'cannot prevent all disasters' theme. So I asked, why did God allow so many to die? So many of whom were babies and infants. I think you'll guess the response? Later that week, i was watching the BBC news when a report of a survivor being found was broadcast. The poor fellow had been stuck up a tree for a week, surviving by licking rainwater from the bark. As he was brought to safety by his rescuers, the local people shouted 'praise to God for saving him' If hadn't been so sad. i would have laughed at their stupidity.
For those who claims there are holes in the science, I think it's fair to say that pretty much all scientists agree on evolution.
And there are many Christians who believe in evolution and don't feel the bible in any says that evolution didn't/doesn't happen. All the Christians I know embrace science as they have nothing to fear because If God created the universe, all things will ultimately point to that. Also, my understanding is that the great Charles Darwin himself was not an atheist.
According to his autobigoraphy he was. When writing the Origin he said "The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an Agnostic."
But 20 years later "disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct."
Like many other former believers, he found the problem of evil insoluble. If God is omnipotent he has the power to end evil (disease, natural disaster, man's inhumanity to man). If God is all-loving he would want humans to suffer less or not at all. Therefore God cannot be omnipotent and all-loving.
When doing my philosophy degree I read lost of Christians on the problem of evil. IMO not one of them was able to deal with it.
Thank you for clearing up the Darwin info. Regarding the state of the world and how a loving god could allow evil, pain, suffering etc., I believe that God has given us free will and life without him (which humanity to an extent has chosen) means we are independent and distance from him means we can't expect him to bail us out even though it hurts him to see what's happening. Jesus himself (indisputably) suffered more than most of us could possibly imagine. You could call me a Jesus freak, but I wholeheartedly believe that God is all loving and that it pains him to see what's happening in the world he created to be a place of peace, love and unity. I don't mean to impose my beliefs and don't often talk about it but just felt I had to put that side across.
HE , IT WHATEVER DOES NOT EXIST!!!
Absence of proof is not proof of absence, otherwise justice would not exist, love would not exist, there would be no good and no evil, no right and no wrong. They only exist because people believe in them - why should God not be the same? (and I speak as a non-believer in a Creator being.)
I am an Athiest. I don't 'believe' in that. It's what i know to be true. There is no God, never has been. The whole religion thing is mumbo-jumbo nonsense. (and by that i mean ALL religions) I didn't start this way. I was brought up in Christian family. True, they were not fully practising Christians. But they seemed to 'believe' As i grew older, i began to find religion ridiculous. Gradually i drifted away until i decided i was indeed, unquestionably Athiest. I don't need to seek justification of what i know to be right. I don't need religion to live morally. A particular incident always comes to mind when i hear people talking of God. The Asian tsunami: I asked a religous aquaintance. Why did God allow the tsunami? The answer was vague but essentially 'God cannot prevent all disasters' So I asked. Why didn't God warn the people of what was coming? The answer was vague but returned to the 'cannot prevent all disasters' theme. So I asked, why did God allow so many to die? So many of whom were babies and infants. I think you'll guess the response? Later that week, i was watching the BBC news when a report of a survivor being found was broadcast. The poor fellow had been stuck up a tree for a week, surviving by licking rainwater from the bark. As he was brought to safety by his rescuers, the local people shouted 'praise to God for saving him' If hadn't been so sad. i would have laughed at their stupidity.
I still have never heard a satisfactory answer to the problem of a "good" god which either a: (deism) - established a human race with incompatible desires and strengths who then go on to commit atrocity on one another, or b: (theism) - even more ridiculous in my opinion - a god that ostensibly cares for and intervenes with individuals (provably not the case the moment a baby is slaughtered violently in a "natural" disaster). Unless you believe in c: (madness) the concept of "original sin" and therefore the impossibility of innocence, so the slaughtering is OK. I know this is religion 101 stuff, but I have still never come across anything that satisfactorily answers how the supposed greatest good is implicated in the greatest evil. And therefore I am an atheist, because it seems to me to defy anything remotely rational. The get out clause, of course, is that "well - God is beyond rationality". No offence, but so is the flying spaghetti monster or anything else you wish to invent.
I accept that religion is not the sole cause of the world's evil, any more than any other strongly held belief or power base but it is a major contributor, so it seems a bit rich for it to make any claims at all for it's tenets as the basis for ethics and morality.
I do not see how the bible or any other set of texts from antiquity can be used as a "proof", unless it can be put into practice now as a method for living in a way that demonstrably leads to wisdom and goodness. I don't think the bible does that.
Sorry, I can't be bothered to go back to the start to find out whether that makes me A,B,C,D,E,F or J.
P.S. Have we signed Delort yet? I'm not sure if he exists, either.
Comments
My conversion to Charlton was far later on in life (about three and a half years ago)! :-)
I respect the beliefs of others but do not believe in God etc.
I think his argument is entirely unconvincing. He boils down to the assertion that evil exist to give us the opportunity to do good. If God hadn't created cancer, says Swinburne, then humanity woudl have no opportunity to conquer cancer through research its causes and treatment. I find this a superficial and, TBH, rather nauseating approach. We are like rats in God's laboratory. An earthquake here and there or a Hiroshima is a learning experience for us.
(a) it doesn't deal with non-man made evils - teh Blakc death, the Lisbo earthquake etc
(b) God's wish to allow us free will may justify the evil we do to ourselves through poor choices but not to others (murdering babies in the holocaust etc). In the Old Testament, it appears that God actually orders atrocities including the murder of children, the rape of women and girls and the ethnic cleansing of cities and regions (see Johsua for instance).
I woudl never call you a Jesus freak. You believe what you believe and I hope it makes you happy.
Hopefully I don't offend anyone as I'm quite open minded, just not easily convinced of something. I'd say F with a bit of D. I don't believe that there is a god that is nice and rewards you for doing good and let's you into his home. Without sounding harsh, he would have to be a pretty disgusting person to give someone the chance to live (as they say) and to then play games and decide its fate to either eternal bliss or doom. Take Gaza for example. Tons of innocent people dying and for what? Do they get immunity from hell as they haven't had their full life to prove themselves? What about pedos and serial killers? Does God want people to be raped and killed to send a message? I don't buy it. When you have a kid you give it free will to an extent. You would intervene if it was in a fight, you would lend money if he/she was in debt, you would sacrifice yourself for your child no questions. A true parents love is unmatched by any other kind of bond. If we were Gods children surely there would be no one in debt, no killings etc as he would create people with good natures and would never allow his children to suffer for the sake of some game. More to the point why would people want to live a life that is apparently 'required' to such a sick idea anyway. Sorry to say but I believe that a very creative man wrote the bible. He was ahead of his time and a great story teller. I also reckon Jesus was the worlds very first magician and a great one that couldn't be sussed out cause people didn't understand it at the time. And that's no disrespect, I think magicians are brilliant.
Now that 'that' god is out of the way I do believe there is A God, but he/she/it comes in many forms and can't quite be explained. I won't even attempt either but as we all know the universe is massive and there is not a chance that we're the only beings in/on/within it, I don't believe we're here by luck. I don't believe that nothingness just suddenly become something. I am also not scared of the process of dying, but the thought of being dead forever is very scary for me. I know you wouldn't know when you're dead anyway but it sounds very boring. I really enjoy playing my xbox, having a kick about, spending time with my girlfriend and family etc, the thought of just losing all that in an instance is pretty shitty.
My friends theory is that there is a god out there and we're a failed project, his theory is that a God thought of us, was putting it all together, fucked up somewhere and couldn't undo it and cleared off to another part of the universe to try something new. Which is on par of the belief of being accepted into heaven for doing good in my eyes.
That said I do understand why people are religious, it's a safety cushion and the thought of dying is not nice so I don't blame anyone for trying to find an answer. It's not for me though.
People have done great wrong in the name of religion, it's undeniable... but there's been so much evil done by humans to other humans that anyone who thinks no religion would result in sudden utopia is as militant and dogmatic as the religious fanatics who give peaceful, generous believers a bad name.
I do have sympathy with those who don't want to have religion forced on them - in fact I passionately believe it's not something that should be forced on people. I do have a faith though, and there's something about good news that makes you want people to share it - so I'm comfortable with people that take a similar view and are happy to talk about it evangelically, provided that it's my decision for faith not theirs - if you know what I mean.
A personal view is that militant atheism is a bit silly. If you choose not to believe anything, fair enough, your choice - but to try to persuade those of faith to abandon it makes you as bad if not worse than those wanting to share their good news. In fact worse, because you're trying to make people swallow your bad news, and you're doing exactly the same thing as those you apparently abhor. Shame on you. Great youtube from the agnostic David Mitchell on that incidentally.
I would hope everyone would respect my views (and most do, to be fair), just as I respect anyone who does believe in a religion.
I have no problem whatsoever with religion, and can recognise that christian values (for example) are generally a good set of principles to live by. I do have a problem when people try and ram whatever opinion they have - religious or not - down my throat.
As someone else said, live and let live
For me, this is exactly the way it should be - accepting there are things we cannot understand and can't control is fundamental to truly understanding our place in the universe.
So jump off that roof and prove it, then.
Religion and religious teachings are all about control.
I didn't start this way. I was brought up in Christian family. True, they were not fully practising Christians. But they seemed to 'believe'
As i grew older, i began to find religion ridiculous. Gradually i drifted away until i decided i was indeed, unquestionably Athiest.
I don't need to seek justification of what i know to be right. I don't need religion to live morally.
A particular incident always comes to mind when i hear people talking of God.
The Asian tsunami:
I asked a religous aquaintance. Why did God allow the tsunami? The answer was vague but essentially 'God cannot prevent all disasters'
So I asked. Why didn't God warn the people of what was coming? The answer was vague but returned to the 'cannot prevent all disasters' theme.
So I asked, why did God allow so many to die? So many of whom were babies and infants. I think you'll guess the response?
Later that week, i was watching the BBC news when a report of a survivor being found was broadcast. The poor fellow had been stuck up a tree for a week, surviving by licking rainwater from the bark.
As he was brought to safety by his rescuers, the local people shouted 'praise to God for saving him'
If hadn't been so sad. i would have laughed at their stupidity.
Science isn't in the business of answering pointless questions though.
What is the colour of happiness? - Pointless question
What is the sexuality of an oil rig? - Pointless question
What is the purpose of life? - Pointless question
Why do we fall in love? - Pointless question
I accept that religion is not the sole cause of the world's evil, any more than any other strongly held belief or power base but it is a major contributor, so it seems a bit rich for it to make any claims at all for it's tenets as the basis for ethics and morality.
I do not see how the bible or any other set of texts from antiquity can be used as a "proof", unless it can be put into practice now as a method for living in a way that demonstrably leads to wisdom and goodness. I don't think the bible does that.
Sorry, I can't be bothered to go back to the start to find out whether that makes me A,B,C,D,E,F or J.
P.S. Have we signed Delort yet? I'm not sure if he exists, either.