An example of the kind of cheap European labour UKIP will put a stop to...coming over here, taking British jobs, forcing down wages...
Prague, I usually enjoy reading your posts but, with the greatest respect, this is just silly.
Do you really think that when Igor's people came over to negotiate a deal with the club they said "So Churchy is on £3k a week, is he? That's no problem, my boy will do it for 1.5k a week"
I don't think anyone is saying - not even UKIP - that we should stop all immigration into the country. Nobody wants to stop highly skilled people that the country needs to grow its economy coming in. But do we really need hundreds of thousands of unskilled people coming in who are driving down wages for many people at the bottom?
I think it was a bit tongue in cheek really...
In answer to the bit about "do we really need hundreds of thousands of people...", the rich people who are in charge seem to think so ( I include UKIP in that, as they seem to be very pro big business and anti worker ).
I might also get you to ask some of the older construction workers whether they took advantage of the large amounts of work and decent money by British standards at the time offered in Germany during the eighties and nineties ?
UKIP have momentum and unless they as a party or Farage does anything particularly damaging, will continue to grow.
Their few policies are based on tapping into what the common man is perceived to be disgruntled about. Highlighting problems and pledging to tackle problems. They will keep widening their policy manifesto to include more things people feel disgruntled about. This will keep happening until a time when they may have to actually deliver on these policies and then realise that they are completely unworkable in either a practical or financial way.
One thing these by-elections have proved is that unless there is constitutional change or something crazy happens, we will have a Labour government for the next two elections at the very least imo.
Two right-leaning parties against 1-left leaning will only have one outcome, until a disgruntled splinter left group breaks off from Labour and splits their vote the same way that UKIP has split the Conservative vote. Everyone says about UKIP's meteoric rise, but that has still taken 11 years to get to now.
Ed Milliband as our leader. Good lord.
Cameron's quote of "Vote UKIP, get Labour" has a ring of truth about it but as UKIP trailed Labour by 617 votes in the Heywood and Middleton by-election it does challwage that thinking.
I said in an earlier post on this thread that there is some cogent thinking that both SNP and UKIP will likely hold the balance of power after the next election. Scotland will likely see Labour lose seats to SNP, Wales may see Plaid Cymru pinch more off Labour and after both by-elections we don't know how much Labour or the Conservatives will lose to UKIP.
The possible shape of the next parliament is going to be very different. There is a good chance that the Conservatives or Labour could form a coalition with Nationalist parties. Question is who and how. As much as I think they're all crap, I don't like the idea of SNP or UKIP dictating policy - shuddering thought.
That's the point though SHG, obviously people who run business's have to look at it in a sense of what's best financially.
If we tightened immigration, then they wouldn't have the option of employing these polish men for half the money of the English men.
I see both sides to the debate. I'm in the construction industry, not far off being qualified. I worry that I'm going to struggle to get work and earn proper money because Vladimir will do it for half the rate.
At the same time I've met some top draw foreigners on my site. Romanians and Bulgarians imparticular. When you get talking to them about why they came over etc, they say the same thing, for money. They tell about how their families struggled to earn money at home and how they could barely afford to live. So they came over here for a better way of life, so they could afford to live. They say how they don't want to live over here, away from their families, but they have to so their kids have a roof over their head.
Think about it if you genuinely couldn't afford to feed your family, and there was work with good pay over seas? What would you do, honestly?
I'm sure we'd all move heaven and earth to ensure our families are stable and can afford to live, no matter what, wouldn't we?
I'm very much in the middle in regards to leaving the EU. When you talk to these guys and hear some of their stories, it does change your perception.
The tories went out at their conference and stated a benefits freeze for the working poor and yet tax cuts for the rich. If Labour cannot paint a cohesive picture with such an open goal in front of them then they will surely struggle. The minimum wage has not cost jobs, as feared by some upon its introduction. The total number employed has gone up every year since its introduction (except the recession years). Many on minimum wage receive benefits which are effectively a subsidy to the employer who is not paying enough to live on. Perhaps the minimum should be raised? Perhaps whoever wants to win enough seats for government should communicate policies to attack unemployment rather than immigration. And the benefits bill, not the claimants - looking at the whole picture for the working poor and the whole picture for housing benefit. And there is a simple solution for construction: how's about building more houses?!
Today it was about banning foreigners from entering the UK who are HIV positive -
That statement was taken out of context, he also mention checking for people who have TB, which was all but eridicated in this country, he asked how much treating people with TB was costing the NHS, but no one wants to report that.
An example of the kind of cheap European labour UKIP will put a stop to...coming over here, taking British jobs, forcing down wages...
Prague, I usually enjoy reading your posts but, with the greatest respect, this is just silly.
Do you really think that when Igor's people came over to negotiate a deal with the club they said "So Churchy is on £3k a week, is he? That's no problem, my boy will do it for 1.5k a week"
I don't think anyone is saying - not even UKIP - that we should stop all immigration into the country. Nobody wants to stop highly skilled people that the country needs to grow its economy coming in. But do we really need hundreds of thousands of unskilled people coming in who are driving down wages for many people at the bottom?
Your final question depends entirely on who you mean by "we" doesn't it?
Today it was about banning foreigners from entering the UK who are HIV positive -
That statement was taken out of context, he also mention checking for people who have TB, which was all but eridicated in this country, he asked how much treating people with TB was costing the NHS, but no one wants to report that.
I think the nationlist parties in western europe are all gaining a foot hold in their countries parliments, but that is mainly due to the fairier system of Proportion Representation.
Today it was about banning foreigners from entering the UK who are HIV positive -
That statement was taken out of context, he also mention checking for people who have TB, which was all but eridicated in this country, he asked how much treating people with TB was costing the NHS, but no one wants to report that.
If no one reported it, how do you know? ;-)
It was reported of course but it feeds into to UKIP myth that the are targeted by the main stream media at the behest of the established parties.
I wonder how Nigel would view the treatment of Malala Yousafzai whose life was saved by the NHS? Should she have been refused treatment a la UKIP's wishes it seems? We'll never know of course as Carswell and Nigel will never tell us as they know any further discussion paints them into a difficult corner.
Aha, @cantersaddick , economic brians, ( or even brains) now take me through the various arguments concerning TTIP and calling all Kippers, what's your take on this?
UKIP have momentum and unless they as a party or Farage does anything particularly damaging, will continue to grow.
Their few policies are based on tapping into what the common man is perceived to be disgruntled about. Highlighting problems and pledging to tackle problems. They will keep widening their policy manifesto to include more things people feel disgruntled about. This will keep happening until a time when they may have to actually deliver on these policies and then realise that they are completely unworkable in either a practical or financial way.
One thing these by-elections have proved is that unless there is constitutional change or something crazy happens, we will have a Labour government for the next two elections at the very least imo.
Two right-leaning parties against 1-left leaning will only have one outcome, until a disgruntled splinter left group breaks off from Labour and splits their vote the same way that UKIP has split the Conservative vote. Everyone says about UKIP's meteoric rise, but that has still taken 11 years to get to now.
Ed Milliband as our leader. Good lord.
Cameron's quote of "Vote UKIP, get Labour" has a ring of truth about it but as UKIP trailed Labour by 617 votes in the Heywood and Middleton by-election it does challwage that thinking.
I said in an earlier post on this thread that there is some cogent thinking that both SNP and UKIP will likely hold the balance of power after the next election. Scotland will likely see Labour lose seats to SNP, Wales may see Plaid Cymru pinch more off Labour and after both by-elections we don't know how much Labour or the Conservatives will lose to UKIP.
The possible shape of the next parliament is going to be very different. There is a good chance that the Conservatives or Labour could form a coalition with Nationalist parties. Question is who and how. As much as I think they're all crap, I don't like the idea of SNP or UKIP dictating policy - shuddering thought.
not necessarily. on a low turn out by-election labour increased its share of the vote. in a general election labour's core vote will turn out in larger numbers. what it does say is that the tory and libdem vote collapsed completely. what might happen is that we will the ukips coming second in safe labour seats and have a significant effect on marginals which increase labour's chances in those seats.
there is probably enough of the voting population who would would never vote for ukip under any circumstances due to them being a hard right wing and racist party. the ukips will come under pressure to come up with other policies than their "we hate foreigners" line and a series of populist sound bites. the fact that they have done well in recent votes will also harden the anti-ukip vote as there are many people who do not want ukip at all.
i am still waiting for nige to deliver on his promise of having a worked out manifesto by the time of their party conference which he made at the time of the euro elections. the reality is that he will struggle to get any agreement on anything from his ragbag of supporters currently in place as party leaders. the only thing that brings them together is the dislike of people who are different to them
Interesting that I have been flagged for abuse for stating the truth.
Perhaps people should read the article first ?
UKIP are not far off the BNP and are racist and xenophobic .
Shouting "racist!!!" and "xenophobic!!!" Doesn't work anymore.
I am not shouting anything - whether people are now happy for to vote for a party with theses characteristics is another thing. Indeed it is patently obvious that many supporters and activists are attracted because of these aspects of UKIP.
The truth is the truth even if if you are in a minority of one.
Interesting that I have been flagged for abuse for stating the truth.
Perhaps people should read the article first ?
UKIP are not far off the BNP and are racist and xenophobic .
Shouting "racist!!!" and "xenophobic!!!" Doesn't work anymore.
except that ukip is a racist party. compare the "policies" (populist sound bites) that ukip are currently putting forward against the national socialist's 25 point plan put forward in 1921. the context is different but the sentiment is the same.
Interesting that I have been flagged for abuse for stating the truth.
Perhaps people should read the article first ?
UKIP are not far off the BNP and are racist and xenophobic .
Shouting "racist!!!" and "xenophobic!!!" Doesn't work anymore.
I am not shouting anything - whether people are now happy for to vote for a party with theses characteristics is another thing. Indeed it is patently obvious that many supporters and activists are attracted because of these aspects of UKIP.
The truth is the truth even if if you are in a minority of one.
And this is going to help the people who are attracted to UKIP to change their minds how?
Interesting that I have been flagged for abuse for stating the truth.
Perhaps people should read the article first ?
UKIP are not far off the BNP and are racist and xenophobic .
Shouting "racist!!!" and "xenophobic!!!" Doesn't work anymore.
except that ukip is a racist party. compare the "policies" (populist sound bites) that ukip are currently putting forward against the national socialist's 25 point plan put forward in 1921. the context is different but the sentiment is the same.
Indeed dig a little and this party in even more disturbing than its sound bites.
There is no party in UK history that has felt the need to declare in its constitution that it is non - racist and will not accept former BNP members. If it look s like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck.
Interesting that I have been flagged for abuse for stating the truth.
Perhaps people should read the article first ?
UKIP are not far off the BNP and are racist and xenophobic .
Shouting "racist!!!" and "xenophobic!!!" Doesn't work anymore.
I am not shouting anything - whether people are now happy for to vote for a party with theses characteristics is another thing. Indeed it is patently obvious that many supporters and activists are attracted because of these aspects of UKIP.
The truth is the truth even if if you are in a minority of one.
And this is going to help the people who are attracted to UKIP to change their minds how?
No but pandering to these elements of UKIP policy isn't either. I am not sure what the right approach is honestly. But keeping quiet is not an option.
I don`t recall UKIP sending out sign-written vans to prowl the streets telling illegal immigrants to go home or else! UKIP probably has more representatives of black and asian origin than the Con/Lib/Lab put together. Don`t see many in the Tories..........or the Lib Dems..........Only a few tired old faces in the Labour party come to think of it. People like Dianne Abbott don`t exactly endear many people to Labour do they? She is surely the most anti-white, anti British mp of the lot and is open to the extreme on that issue!
"If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system." - Tony Benn, Eurosceptic.
Except we all wearily sigh and declare 'meet the new boss, same as the old boss'. The concept of what is democracy and what is democratic is certainly very varied and open to a range of interpretations. One ferinstance is young Scottish voters not being allowed to vote in the General Election next May who just participated in the Scottish referendum. I am not seeking the whys and wherefores on that, I mention it to point out that what we assume to be democratic in 'the West' is full of contradictions. A Republican can vote for which Democratic candidate they want in a primary in order to get the (Democratic) person they think they can beat in the real thing, voting is compulsory in some countries, but not in others. The malarkey in Hong Kong is not about being allowed to vote, but the line up of candidates. Tony Benn's definition is good, but it is telling that he said a democratic system, and not the democratic system.
An example of the kind of cheap European labour UKIP will put a stop to...coming over here, taking British jobs, forcing down wages...
Prague, I usually enjoy reading your posts but, with the greatest respect, this is just silly.
Do you really think that when Igor's people came over to negotiate a deal with the club they said "So Churchy is on £3k a week, is he? That's no problem, my boy will do it for 1.5k a week"
I don't think anyone is saying - not even UKIP - that we should stop all immigration into the country. Nobody wants to stop highly skilled people that the country needs to grow its economy coming in. But do we really need hundreds of thousands of unskilled people coming in who are driving down wages for many people at the bottom?
It was as Algarve supposed tongue in cheek, however RD's model is built on the ability to get better value by being able to utilise a Europe wide market for players. He and Katrien have both several times said that they are aghast at how expensive English players are. So never mind Churchy, that was a joke, but when Chris O'Grady asked for 15k/week that was probably when the penny dropped and RD said 'sod this, i can get someone better for half the price'. And he did. But if we weren't in the EU there may well have been a work permit issue, just as there was with Bolanos a few years ago.
I just wanted to give a tongue in cheek example of how the simple solutions of UKIP are actually simplistic, and in practice will have all sorts of negative consequences.
Interesting that I have been flagged for abuse for stating the truth.
Perhaps people should read the article first ?
UKIP are not far off the BNP and are racist and xenophobic .
Shouting "racist!!!" and "xenophobic!!!" Doesn't work anymore.
except that ukip is a racist party. compare the "policies" (populist sound bites) that ukip are currently putting forward against the national socialist's 25 point plan put forward in 1921. the context is different but the sentiment is the same.
Indeed dig a little and this party in even more disturbing than its sound bites.
There is no party in UK history that has felt the need to declare in its constitution that it is non - racist and will not accept former BNP members. If it look s like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck.
UKIP probably feels the need to state that it isn't a racist party as so many of its opponents like to portray them as racist.
I might also get you to ask some of the older construction workers whether they took advantage of the large amounts of work and decent money by British standards at the time offered in Germany during the eighties and nineties ?
Auf Weidersehen pet anyone ?
Auf Weidersehen pet caused quite a stir in the 80s with both the German and British governments advising builders not to go to Germany as there was no labour shortage or work available.
Well in any case thousands of british tradesmen popped off to Germany living in containers picking up large wads of cash and no doubt undercutting the local Germans.
Of course that's not the fault of the current crop of British carpenters and the like but there are many and I know a few who still work in the industry who did go off to Germany and no doubt are bleating about the current situation of Eastern Europeans coming here and working for less money. Perhaps the paint fumes have erased their memory.
Like in most things in life double standards apply.
I don`t recall UKIP sending out sign-written vans to prowl the streets telling illegal immigrants to go home or else! UKIP probably has more representatives of black and asian origin than the Con/Lib/Lab put together. Don`t see many in the Tories..........or the Lib Dems..........Only a few tired old faces in the Labour party come to think of it. People like Dianne Abbott don`t exactly endear many people to Labour do they? She is surely the most anti-white, anti British mp of the lot and is open to the extreme on that issue!
Comments
In answer to the bit about "do we really need hundreds of thousands of people...", the rich people who are in charge seem to think so ( I include UKIP in that, as they seem to be very pro big business and anti worker ).
Auf Weidersehen pet anyone ?
I said in an earlier post on this thread that there is some cogent thinking that both SNP and UKIP will likely hold the balance of power after the next election. Scotland will likely see Labour lose seats to SNP, Wales may see Plaid Cymru pinch more off Labour and after both by-elections we don't know how much Labour or the Conservatives will lose to UKIP.
The possible shape of the next parliament is going to be very different. There is a good chance that the Conservatives or Labour could form a coalition with Nationalist parties. Question is who and how. As much as I think they're all crap, I don't like the idea of SNP or UKIP dictating policy - shuddering thought.
If we tightened immigration, then they wouldn't have the option of employing these polish men for half the money of the English men.
I see both sides to the debate. I'm in the construction industry, not far off being qualified. I worry that I'm going to struggle to get work and earn proper money because Vladimir will do it for half the rate.
At the same time I've met some top draw foreigners on my site. Romanians and Bulgarians imparticular. When you get talking to them about why they came over etc, they say the same thing, for money. They tell about how their families struggled to earn money at home and how they could barely afford to live. So they came over here for a better way of life, so they could afford to live. They say how they don't want to live over here, away from their families, but they have to so their kids have a roof over their head.
Think about it if you genuinely couldn't afford to feed your family, and there was work with good pay over seas? What would you do, honestly?
I'm sure we'd all move heaven and earth to ensure our families are stable and can afford to live, no matter what, wouldn't we?
I'm very much in the middle in regards to leaving the EU. When you talk to these guys and hear some of their stories, it does change your perception.
The minimum wage has not cost jobs, as feared by some upon its introduction. The total number employed has gone up every year since its introduction (except the recession years).
Many on minimum wage receive benefits which are effectively a subsidy to the employer who is not paying enough to live on. Perhaps the minimum should be raised?
Perhaps whoever wants to win enough seats for government should communicate policies to attack unemployment rather than immigration.
And the benefits bill, not the claimants - looking at the whole picture for the working poor and the whole picture for housing benefit.
And there is a simple solution for construction: how's about building more houses?!
That statement was taken out of context, he also mention checking for people who have TB, which was all but eridicated in this country, he asked how much treating people with TB was costing the NHS, but no one wants to report that.
Working-class construction worker, no.
Managing Director of Balfour Beatty, yes.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/danish-parties-seek-deal-block-eurosceptic-party-policy-162925646.html#t1z9h7C
I think the nationlist parties in western europe are all gaining a foot hold in their countries parliments, but that is mainly due to the fairier system of Proportion Representation.
I wonder how Nigel would view the treatment of Malala Yousafzai whose life was saved by the NHS? Should she have been refused treatment a la UKIP's wishes it seems? We'll never know of course as Carswell and Nigel will never tell us as they know any further discussion paints them into a difficult corner.
there is probably enough of the voting population who would would never vote for ukip under any circumstances due to them being a hard right wing and racist party. the ukips will come under pressure to come up with other policies than their "we hate foreigners" line and a series of populist sound bites. the fact that they have done well in recent votes will also harden the anti-ukip vote as there are many people who do not want ukip at all.
i am still waiting for nige to deliver on his promise of having a worked out manifesto by the time of their party conference which he made at the time of the euro elections. the reality is that he will struggle to get any agreement on anything from his ragbag of supporters currently in place as party leaders. the only thing that brings them together is the dislike of people who are different to them
The truth is the truth even if if you are in a minority of one.
"If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system." - Tony Benn, Eurosceptic.
There is no party in UK history that has felt the need to declare in its constitution that it is non - racist and will not accept former BNP members. If it look s like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck.
UKIP are still a duck however
One ferinstance is young Scottish voters not being allowed to vote in the General Election next May who just participated in the Scottish referendum. I am not seeking the whys and wherefores on that, I mention it to point out that what we assume to be democratic in 'the West' is full of contradictions. A Republican can vote for which Democratic candidate they want in a primary in order to get the (Democratic) person they think they can beat in the real thing, voting is compulsory in some countries, but not in others. The malarkey in Hong Kong is not about being allowed to vote, but the line up of candidates.
Tony Benn's definition is good, but it is telling that he said a democratic system, and not the democratic system.
I just wanted to give a tongue in cheek example of how the simple solutions of UKIP are actually simplistic, and in practice will have all sorts of negative consequences.
Of course that's not the fault of the current crop of British carpenters and the like but there are many and I know a few who still work in the industry who did go off to Germany and no doubt are bleating about the current situation of Eastern Europeans coming here and working for less money. Perhaps the paint fumes have erased their memory.
Like in most things in life double standards apply.
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR6-VQgJr1cTaBOolaraa3Ai4CUzQj9p8Jjh1XfYju4EscnKue6SA
^^^still holds