Sorry for my rant above. Now that I've got that off my chest, I would like to return to a proper debate.
I would like to ask all UKIP-inclined people on here, a question I've asked here before.(And didn't get any straight answer).
I understand that many people think politicians are out of touch with the problems of their daily lives. So they are inclined to vote UKIP, whose big promise is, get out of the EU. OK so here's my question to them:
What are the top three things in your daily life which most piss you off, which you think politicians should resolve? Other than "too many immigrants". And how do you believe leaving the EU will make those things better?
Have you worked ovef hefe in the last few years Prague? Have you been made redundant over here in the last few years? Have you tried looking for a job and all there really is for the working class is Agency work with no real future or jobs that offer 0 contract hours. In my road alone 3 houses have at least 8 eastern europeans living in them who share rent etc CAN afford to take on Agency work and jobs which offer 0 contract hours. Hope someone who agrees with me can put it across much better than me .
I genuinely feel sorry for anyone unable to find a job or who is made redundant.
My question is that in this scenario you have the press and right wing media on one hand saying in effect. If you really want a job there are plenty out there just get off your lazy arse and on the other hand saying there are no jobs because they have all gone to Eastern Europeans.
You can't have it both ways yet people are quite able to support both views.
Sorry for my rant above. Now that I've got that off my chest, I would like to return to a proper debate.
I would like to ask all UKIP-inclined people on here, a question I've asked here before.(And didn't get any straight answer).
I understand that many people think politicians are out of touch with the problems of their daily lives. So they are inclined to vote UKIP, whose big promise is, get out of the EU. OK so here's my question to them:
What are the top three things in your daily life which most piss you off, which you think politicians should resolve? Other than "too many immigrants". And how do you believe leaving the EU will make those things better?
Have you worked ovef hefe in the last few years Prague? Have you been made redundant over here in the last few years? Have you tried looking for a job and all there really is for the working class is Agency work with no real future or jobs that offer 0 contract hours. In my road alone 3 houses have at least 8 eastern europeans living in them who share rent etc CAN afford to take on Agency work and jobs which offer 0 contract hours. Hope someone who agrees with me can put it across much better than me .
I'm glad you answered because your earlier posts about the situation on building sites made me think. I think zero hours contracts are a fecking disgrace. But - unless I'm missing something - they've got nothing at all to do with the EU.They're a typical British -lets do it like the Yanks and "liberalise" the workplace- invention.
I can tell you getting a visa for a spouse or a child to the UK is a nightmare for a lot of people. I have friends with wives and children in Asia that have been refused a number of times.
The converse of this is an anecdote i had recently at the Passport Office in Victoria where i was trying to get my 8 year old sons first UK passport. To cut a long story short, my son (who was wearing his Charlton shirt ) was refused a UK passport due to needing further paperwork because he was born outside the UK (to British parents) whereas in the next booth, a woman who's face you couldnt see because of her letter-box burkha was being handed her UK passport via her interpreter , because she couldnt speak English. And some people want to know what irks the indigenous of this country and raises the profile of parties such as UKIP ??!!
I can tell you getting a visa for a spouse or a child to the UK is a nightmare for a lot of people. I have friends with wives and children in Asia that have been refused a number of times.
The converse of this is an anecdote i had recently at the Passport Office in Victoria where i was trying to get my 8 year old sons first UK passport. To cut a long story short, my son (who was wearing his Charlton shirt ) was refused a UK passport due to needing further paperwork because he was born outside the UK (to British parents) whereas in the next booth, a woman who's face you couldnt see because of her letter-box burkha was being handed her UK passport via her interpreter , because she couldnt speak English. And some people want to know what irks the indigenous of this country and raises the profile of parties such as UKIP ??!!
Sorry for my rant above. Now that I've got that off my chest, I would like to return to a proper debate.
I would like to ask all UKIP-inclined people on here, a question I've asked here before.(And didn't get any straight answer).
I understand that many people think politicians are out of touch with the problems of their daily lives. So they are inclined to vote UKIP, whose big promise is, get out of the EU. OK so here's my question to them:
What are the top three things in your daily life which most piss you off, which you think politicians should resolve? Other than "too many immigrants". And how do you believe leaving the EU will make those things better?
Have you worked ovef hefe in the last few years Prague? Have you been made redundant over here in the last few years? Have you tried looking for a job and all there really is for the working class is Agency work with no real future or jobs that offer 0 contract hours. In my road alone 3 houses have at least 8 eastern europeans living in them who share rent etc CAN afford to take on Agency work and jobs which offer 0 contract hours. Hope someone who agrees with me can put it across much better than me .
you are putting together two unrelated things here. immigration and the effect of recession and zero hour contracts.
all of the assessment of economic benefits of immigration shows that without it the UK would be in a much worse place.
the recession is nothing to do with the level of immigration. zero hour contracts even less so. they exist because people have been allowed to offer them. if anything, the EU is against such practice and much of the legislation that farage hates is about making companies behave properly and not exploit their employees. both my children have had to take zero hour contracts on minimum wage, one being made redundant at the end of 9 month contract then reemployed them later so that the company did not have meet any duties for length of service. this is nothing to do with how many immigrants have been allowed into the country. it is just vicious capitalism of the worst kind.
you have demonstrated something that has always been true. in times of recession and hardship scapegoats are looked for. it is nearly always the foreigner, as you have done here.
without immigration and being outside of the eu will leave this country in a much poorer economic state.
ukip have put forward a series of populist ideas for their so called policies and of course people will agree with them, that is why they are populist. but he reality is that they will not be able to deliver on most, if not all of them. in some places they are just telling outright lies.
It effects their everyday lives, from the perceived benefit and NHS tourists, to the lack of school spaces, lack of jobs, lack of wage rises, congested roads and lack of adequate and affordable housing.
well you didn't say which of those affect you directly, but
perceived benefit and NHS touristsWe can fix that tomorrow if we want, as the Polish foreign minister pointed out a few weeks ago. And most NHS "tourists" are actually from outside the EU according to my brother who works at Lewisham Hospital.
lack of school spaces. I accept that in certain places that is a worse problem than it used to be, where immigrants have been attracted to certain towns or areas
lack of jobs. Please tell me why this is the fault of "the EU" and not for example the fuckers who caused the global financial crisis and still have their jobs and sit on their millions?
lack of wage rises as above
congested roads Your're having a laugh, surely? We've always had "congested roads". That's because we've always had useless transport policies. That is entirely the fault of British politicians, and has been for at least 35 years, by comparison with what other EU countries did in the same period
lack of adequate and affordable housing.. Huge problem. And the EU caused it, how? It's a supply problem isn't it, as well as the policy of letting in all and sundry super rich from Russia China and the Middle East, without asking them to contribute any taxes
Sorry, not picking on you, but you made my point with the word "perceived". Get beyond the perception and "the EU is a giant red herring.
Farage is a charlatan, and he's spinning you fairy tales.
Good answer, only respect for your views and goals. And I certainly agree the EU needs significant reform. So do many millions across Northern Europe, BTW. That's why they despair of Farage.
With all these comments about foreigner's taking our jobs, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Farage's wife and secretary who is German.
Farage/UKIP are not against all immigration, more against the 'eastern hordes' who could come to the UK on the off-chance of a job or, more likely, with the intention of taking advantage of the NHS and our ridiculously lax (though it is getting more realistic) benefits system, if system is the right word for a mish mash of outdated and unaffordable state funded hand outs for those who have never paid and never will pay into the exchequer from whence flows the money.
From an article by B. Meaden....'For the people who hold the real power, i.e. the people who own all the money and property, UKIP is an absolute gift. It holds the electorate’s attention by obsessing about immigration and Europe, whilst never proposing anything that would cause a billionaire to lose a night’s sleep. Indeed, if we look past immigration and Europe we find that UKIP’s policies, like a flat rate tax, privatisation, fracking, massive deregulation and a reduced welfare state are just what a billionaire would order.
The British, or more particularly English, establishment has a long history of smothering and subsuming opposition, often using fear tactics to deter support for anything that looks like radical change. Now, the modern establishment can use the media to promote their preferred alternative, and freeze out the undesirables. There are parties and movements around that present a genuine alternative and proposal for radical change. Greens and Plaid Cymru, for example, have four MPs between them and propose banking reform, public ownership of energy and railways, a Citizen’s Income, etc. In comparison to UKIP, with one MP (and not even a new one), they get very little media coverage, and that suits those who support the status quo.
Yet again the establishment has shown its skill at defusing public anger or diverting it into a relatively harmless channel. They have in an act of genius given us a party of protest funded by millionaires and led by a Thatcherite former City broker who’s been an MEP for fifteen years. Panic over, the revolution has been cancelled. Again.'
This is what I have (no where near as well) been trying to explain to UKIP type people for ages and ages, but they seem to be so obsessed with blaming absolutely every problem in the UK on immigration, that they refuse to see what is as plain as the nose on your face when you actually take time to think about it. It may be dumbing down a really serious subject, but TV dramas such as The Village and Downton Abbey have been dealing with the arrogance and self preservation of the ruling classes, and the tactic of creating scapegoats and the principle of divide and conquer very well recently.
I was speaking to someone yesterday who took part in a Boycott Workfare picket of businesses connected to that in Lewisham the other day. He said they were surprised that a couple of UKIP supporters turned up, as they were against workfare, because they'd experienced it while on benefits. Apparently there was a bit of a disconnect between what they supported politically and their experiences. Obviously, seeing the EU and migration as the problem chimes perfectly with UKIP support. Rather than guess what UKIP think about workfare, I thought I'd check their website.
Enrol unemployed welfare claimants onto community schemes or retraining workfare programmes.
There are a lot of contradictions here. It seems to me a lot of UKIP support is based on making cuts for other people, but not themselves. There are things in the UKIP list of policies that make a lot of sense, but there are other things that are dog-whistle policies that have issues as soon as you think about them. Like the one that says:
No to Political Correctness - it stifles free speech.
this is something I agree with on a gut level. The whole point of free speech is that it is for people you disagree with. But do UKIP intend to allow radical Muslim preachers (who are very definitely NOT politically correct) free rein? I suspect not. And I suspect that most UKIP supporters are reading that pledge as one that implies "you'll be able to say rude things about women, gays and ethnic minorities again" not "Abu Qatada will be able to call for all infidels to be put to death".
With all these comments about foreigner's taking our jobs, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Farage's wife and secretary who is German.
Farage/UKIP are not against all immigration, more against the 'eastern hordes' who could come to the UK on the off-chance of a job or, more likely, with the intention of taking advantage of the NHS and our ridiculously lax (though it is getting more realistic) benefits system, if system is the right word for a mish mash of outdated and unaffordable state funded hand outs for those who have never paid and never will pay into the exchequer from whence flows the money.
So Farage does not object to women secretaries coming here from Europe and Carswell from his comments about the popular Rumainian doctor in his constituency. But he does object to Eastern Europeans coming over and taking our jobs. I’ve not heard Farage or Carswell when he was a tory M.P. condemn the employers who advertise in and recruit workers from Eastern Europe on minimum wages.
This may or may not be directly linked to immigration but I feel it's a major factor towards it but a few months ago I was due to have an operation that meant I had to stay in for a couple of days afterwards, on 3 occasions on the morning of the op I turned up at the hospital in the morning ready and willing only to be told it was cancelled and had been rebooked due to there not being any beds available for my stay, all very frustrating when money is deducted from my wages week in week out to cover things such as healthcare. Yet our NHS wastes millions a year funding interpreters for patients that cannot speak our language, if you can't speak the lingo bring someone that can, that money could be spent freeing up more hospital beds or extra nurses that is without what we donate in foreign aid to other countries, charity begins at home and so is it too much to ask that they get looked after by a system that they pay towards. Our MP's probably have private healthcare and so would never experience the problems joe public do. So by denying free healthcare to health tourists and those that have just arrived I'm with UKIP on that one all the way.
Prague - until we have a proper honest debates on what the pro,s and con's are of being in the EU and what effect of immigration is have on the infurstruture of the UK, the people of the UK are in the dark on both issues. I voted to join the common market which was basically a trading partnership and if I remenber correctly the price of a loaf of bread or a gallon/litre of petrol would be common throughout the member states (which has never happened), All I want is a chance to re-visit the issue, but I think none of the political parties other than UKIP (who will never be in power to implement any policies) are willing to address these issues. The Tories want to re-negotiate our membership and offer a referendum some time in the future which may or may not happen, if they get re-elected, the Liberals do not even want to discuss the issue of the EU other than to say it is the best thing since sliced bread, the Labour party do not know which way to swing, I think a good number of Labour MP's would like a referendum so as to put the issue to bed for the foreseeable future. in a to your answer question,
1) walking past my local primary school at turning out time and english seems to be the second language. 2) Shopping in supermarkets where the shop assistants speak to each other in their native tongue, (not english). 3) Walking through a new housing development of 30 council/housing assosiation houses where the majority are occupied by people of african origin, who have no respect of their enviroment.
One question to all you educated people out there, What constitutes a racist? This word is banded around and I am beginging to feel like one, with my above answers, by the way I will be voting UKIP at the next election but it will make no difference as I live in a safe Labour Seat.
This may or may not be directly linked to immigration but I feel it's a major factor towards it but a few months ago I was due to have an operation that meant I had to stay in for a couple of days afterwards, on 3 occasions on the morning of the op I turned up at the hospital in the morning ready and willing only to be told it was cancelled and had been rebooked due to there not being any beds available for my stay, all very frustrating when money is deducted from my wages week in week out to cover things such as healthcare. Yet our NHS wastes millions a year funding interpreters for patients that cannot speak our language, if you can't speak the lingo bring someone that can, that money could be spent freeing up more hospital beds or extra nurses that is without what we donate in foreign aid to other countries, charity begins at home and so is it too much to ask that they get looked after by a system that they pay towards. Our MP's probably have private healthcare and so would never experience the problems joe public do. So by denying free healthcare to health tourists and those that have just arrived I'm with UKIP on that one all the way.
I was on holiday in Italy the year before last and my now wife had to be taken to the local A&E. We don't speak Italian. They got an english speaking person down to communicate between us. She received first class care and was at no cost to ourselves.
It effects their everyday lives, from the perceived benefit and NHS tourists, to the lack of school spaces, lack of jobs, lack of wage rises, congested roads and lack of adequate and affordable housing.
well you didn't say which of those affect you directly, but
perceived benefit and NHS touristsWe can fix that tomorrow if we want, as the Polish foreign minister pointed out a few weeks ago. And most NHS "tourists" are actually from outside the EU according to my brother who works at Lewisham Hospital.
lack of school spaces. I accept that in certain places that is a worse problem than it used to be, where immigrants have been attracted to certain towns or areas
lack of jobs. Please tell me why this is the fault of "the EU" and not for example the fuckers who caused the global financial crisis and still have their jobs and sit on their millions?
lack of wage rises as above
congested roads Your're having a laugh, surely? We've always had "congested roads". That's because we've always had useless transport policies. That is entirely the fault of British politicians, and has been for at least 35 years, by comparison with what other EU countries did in the same period
lack of adequate and affordable housing.. Huge problem. And the EU caused it, how? It's a supply problem isn't it, as well as the policy of letting in all and sundry super rich from Russia China and the Middle East, without asking them to contribute any taxes
Sorry, not picking on you, but you made my point with the word "perceived". Get beyond the perception and "the EU is a giant red herring.
Farage is a charlatan, and he's spinning you fairy tales.
Good answer, only respect for your views and goals. And I certainly agree the EU needs significant reform. So do many millions across Northern Europe, BTW. That's why they despair of Farage.
Perhaps you should read my post again - but this time for the beginning. I'm pointing out what the perception is of UKIP for a lot of people who are voting for them. And unlimited immigration from the EU is the reason for people turning to themm on their droves. Unlimited immigration has a knock on effect in virtually all areas of life in the UK
But yet again, you come back with no solutions, just belittling those perceptions with not particularly persausive answers as to why an individual shouldn't vote UKIP.
Again, you need to step back from trying to pick holes in everything UKIP do or say and ask yourself why the likes of the good people of Clacton deserted the old regime.
And of course your 'no name calling and back to the debate' stance didn't last very long did it?
This may or may not be directly linked to immigration but I feel it's a major factor towards it but a few months ago I was due to have an operation that meant I had to stay in for a couple of days afterwards, on 3 occasions on the morning of the op I turned up at the hospital in the morning ready and willing only to be told it was cancelled and had been rebooked due to there not being any beds available for my stay, all very frustrating when money is deducted from my wages week in week out to cover things such as healthcare. Yet our NHS wastes millions a year funding interpreters for patients that cannot speak our language, if you can't speak the lingo bring someone that can, that money could be spent freeing up more hospital beds or extra nurses that is without what we donate in foreign aid to other countries, charity begins at home and so is it too much to ask that they get looked after by a system that they pay towards. Our MP's probably have private healthcare and so would never experience the problems joe public do. So by denying free healthcare to health tourists and those that have just arrived I'm with UKIP on that one all the way.
I was on holiday in Italy the year before last and my now wife had to be taken to the local A&E. We don't speak Italian. They got an english speaking person down to communicate between us. She received first class care and was at no cost to ourselves.
Just saying
You would think that finding someone who speaks English in Italy would be a lot easier and therefore cheaper than finding someone who speaks fluent Albanian in Woolwich (or mabe not !)
Thats why its a pointless debate on here, you get so called belittled and called a racists, my views are from what I see with my very own eyes by actually seeing the cost of mass immigration from the EU and africa from where I live. Not may I add from reading a spread sheet hundreds of miles away or from train window when I commute to the city.
Sorry @Addickted, what name did I call you? I think I got your post perfectly well. You referred to "perceptions". And I'm pointing out that those perceptions are either not in line with the facts, or are about issues which, in fact, are entirely within our powers to solve without leaving the EU. If you think I'm wrong, point out my mistakes. That's what the debate is about.
Nevertheless you want solutions from me. OK:
1. Benefits and health tourism. Implement a six month period in work before any newcomers can claim benefits.As they do in Poland !!!!! can be done tomorrow.
2. School spaces. Difficult. I'm not equipped to answer that one
3. Lack of jobs. Enough with "austerity". Invest in the country's infrastructure, and R&D. Fund it by taxing multinationals and super wealthy "immigrants" like Abramovic, fairly. Which by the way means getting more, smarter people into the Inland Revenue, to work on the big stuff instead of hassling Charlton Lifers for £500.
4. lack of wage rises. Not sure you can have a policy that guarantees wage rises across the board. But in a healthy growing economy, wages tend to rise. So see 3 above
5. Congested roads? Where to start..35 years of neglect...encourage people to choose their cars less by abandoning the current ridiculous form of rail and bus privatisation, invest in trams, create proper cycle lanes. Basically, do what the Germans do. Although they too have traffic congestion, its a fact of life, people like their cars.
6. Lack of adequate housing. Got to be careful here, others will have a clearer idea of what works, but generally we need a strategy for building more affordable housing, and one such strategy is to support cities such as Oxford and Cambridge for development, as Evan Davies suggested in his programme on London. And as per 3, proper taxes on the super rich foreign buyers of London property.
Best I can do off the cuff, but you asked, and I have answered.
I can tell you getting a visa for a spouse or a child to the UK is a nightmare for a lot of people. I have friends with wives and children in Asia that have been refused a number of times.
It's odd really. We have a lot of East Europeans in our neck of the woods but they are valued and are now playing a part in our local community and activities, they are setting up businesses and also winning business awards. In our doctors surgery, I am more likely to have an immigrant in front of me as a doctor than an immigrant queuing up behind me . Why does it work in some areas but not apparently in others?
An observation from someone, that will not be voting for UKIP, but can understand why many will.
It would seem, that many of the posters on this thread, who appear to be, the most opposed to UKIP, live abroad, mainly in other European countries. Therefore, it is not surprising that these posters are pro the EU. I wouldn't expect anything else.
What I do find slightly surprising, is their strongly held views, when they don't live here and don't live with the day to day realities of a population, that is rising massively and shows no signs, of not continuing to rise massively.
You would have thought that it was fairly easy to understand, that an extra 200,000 net, people coming in to the country every year, will mean more people needing everything. This of course encompasses needing housing, school places, hospitals, GP appointments, roads, everything in fact. Obviously these factors impact on everyone to a greater or lesser extent.
Yes, things can be done to try to alleviate all of these issues, but it doesn't make it right does it ?
Address the issue. If you're banging your head on the wall, stop banging your head. Don't start taking headache pills and plasters to address the issue.
Do the pro EU supporters, think Britain should ever be allowed to control EU immigration ?
Do they think we should theoretically, have Britain with an ever increasing population, whilst most other European countries have perhaps falling populations ?
Is Britain ever allowed to say, we reserve the right to permit in the skilled people we need, but not the people with skills, that we do not need ?
Are we allowed to say no more, when the population reaches 70M, or 75M or perhaps 100M ?
At what point are we allowed to say, we need to limit immigration, without being called racist? Presumably, at no point.
To state the above does not make me a racist, bigot, homophobe or any other such label. It is simply someone stating facts.
To me, Australia has the best immigration policy. And they dont seem to be doing that badly on the financial front either. (and their PM says a lot of common sense too ).
I don't think anyone seriously believes that UKIP will win the next election but it is very likely that whoever gets into bed with them and eventually listens to the increasing numbers who are willing to air their concerns over immigration (the majority of whom have had those concerns for a long time but haven't been allowed to air them for fear of being labelled KKK) will win.
Any of the major parties could have put their head above the parapet 2 or 3 elections ago but either didn't listen to their people or ignored the problem and bottled it.
class="Quote" rel="The_President">To me, Australia has the best immigration policy. And they dont seem to be doing that badly on the financial front either. (and their PM says a lot of common sense too ).
Yes exactly, a country with an immigration system that works and benefits the country. Let`s not kid ourselves that Britain has a fully functioning immigration system. What it has is an attractive looking open door that has caused a free for all that extends to Asia and the bottom of Africa as the problems in the EU prove with tens of thousands of people being funnelled up from Italy and Greece towards Calais. Add unlimited EU migration to this and the numbers are unsustainable. This is not even counting newborns!
A lot of people do have something to offer but an equal number don`t and will never contribute in any positive fashion to this country. The drain and pressure on services is obvious. Deliberately targeted Government cuts make it worse.
Call me what you like, this is simply not sustainable and has to be debated and dealt with in a sensible way. People have a right to raise this issue and express their concerns without the pathetic, childish race card being thrown at them to stifle debate.
I don't think anyone seriously believes that UKIP will win the next election but it is very likely that whoever gets into bed with them and eventually listens to the increasing numbers who are willing to air their concerns over immigration (the majority of whom have had those concerns for a long time but haven't been allowed to air them for fear of being labelled KKK) will win.
Any of the major parties could have put their head above the parapet 2 or 3 elections ago but either didn't listen to their people or ignored the problem and bottled it.
Thats a very good point- even on this thread i can sense a feeling of 'hey, we can talk about this without being branded as racists FOR A CHANGE' - tbh, for there to be so many people to show their willingness to show that there is obviously a problem with immigration that i believe there will be a huge swing towards UKIP over the next few months, because , whether people like it or not, if you go out and talk to the man and woman in the street, the vast majority have a problem with immigration, past and present. I feel a snowball effect towards UKIP is gathering momentum.
To me, Australia has the best immigration policy. And they dont seem to be doing that badly on the financial front either. (and their PM says a lot of common sense too ).
Like global warming is a myth for example? The Australian immigration policy, aside from being a borderline breach of human rights in some places, is not the reason for their financial success. They are doing alright because they have hundreds of years worth of resources to throw at their problems. You'd have to be a proper idiot to mess that one up.
Comments
My question is that in this scenario you have the press and right wing media on one hand saying in effect. If you really want a job there are plenty out there just get off your lazy arse and on the other hand saying there are no jobs because they have all gone to Eastern Europeans.
You can't have it both ways yet people are quite able to support both views.
To cut a long story short, my son (who was wearing his Charlton shirt ) was refused a UK passport due to needing further paperwork because he was born outside the UK (to British parents) whereas in the next booth, a woman who's face you couldnt see because of her letter-box burkha was being handed her UK passport via her interpreter , because she couldnt speak English.
And some people want to know what irks the indigenous of this country and raises the profile of parties such as UKIP ??!!
all of the assessment of economic benefits of immigration shows that without it the UK would be in a much worse place.
the recession is nothing to do with the level of immigration. zero hour contracts even less so. they exist because people have been allowed to offer them. if anything, the EU is against such practice and much of the legislation that farage hates is about making companies behave properly and not exploit their employees. both my children have had to take zero hour contracts on minimum wage, one being made redundant at the end of 9 month contract then reemployed them later so that the company did not have meet any duties for length of service. this is nothing to do with how many immigrants have been allowed into the country. it is just vicious capitalism of the worst kind.
you have demonstrated something that has always been true. in times of recession and hardship scapegoats are looked for. it is nearly always the foreigner, as you have done here.
without immigration and being outside of the eu will leave this country in a much poorer economic state.
ukip have put forward a series of populist ideas for their so called policies and of course people will agree with them, that is why they are populist. but he reality is that they will not be able to deliver on most, if not all of them. in some places they are just telling outright lies.
It effects their everyday lives, from the perceived benefit and NHS tourists, to the lack of school spaces, lack of jobs, lack of wage rises, congested roads and lack of adequate and affordable housing.
well you didn't say which of those affect you directly, but
perceived benefit and NHS touristsWe can fix that tomorrow if we want, as the Polish foreign minister pointed out a few weeks ago. And most NHS "tourists" are actually from outside the EU according to my brother who works at Lewisham Hospital.
lack of school spaces. I accept that in certain places that is a worse problem than it used to be, where immigrants have been attracted to certain towns or areas
lack of jobs. Please tell me why this is the fault of "the EU" and not for example the fuckers who caused the global financial crisis and still have their jobs and sit on their millions?
lack of wage rises as above
congested roads Your're having a laugh, surely? We've always had "congested roads". That's because we've always had useless transport policies. That is entirely the fault of British politicians, and has been for at least 35 years, by comparison with what other EU countries did in the same period
lack of adequate and affordable housing.. Huge problem. And the EU caused it, how? It's a supply problem isn't it, as well as the policy of letting in all and sundry super rich from Russia China and the Middle East, without asking them to contribute any taxes
Sorry, not picking on you, but you made my point with the word "perceived". Get beyond the perception and "the EU is a giant red herring.
Farage is a charlatan, and he's spinning you fairy tales.
@Huskaris.
Good answer, only respect for your views and goals. And I certainly agree the EU needs significant reform. So do many millions across Northern Europe, BTW. That's why they despair of Farage.
There are things in the UKIP list of policies that make a lot of sense, but there are other things that are dog-whistle policies that have issues as soon as you think about them. Like the one that says: this is something I agree with on a gut level. The whole point of free speech is that it is for people you disagree with. But do UKIP intend to allow radical Muslim preachers (who are very definitely NOT politically correct) free rein? I suspect not. And I suspect that most UKIP supporters are reading that pledge as one that implies "you'll be able to say rude things about women, gays and ethnic minorities again" not "Abu Qatada will be able to call for all infidels to be put to death".
So Farage does not object to women secretaries coming here from Europe and Carswell from his comments about the popular Rumainian doctor in his constituency. But he does object to Eastern Europeans coming over and taking our jobs.
I’ve not heard Farage or Carswell when he was a tory M.P. condemn the employers who advertise in and recruit workers from Eastern Europe on minimum wages.
1) walking past my local primary school at turning out time and english seems to be the second language.
2) Shopping in supermarkets where the shop assistants speak to each other in their native tongue, (not english).
3) Walking through a new housing development of 30 council/housing assosiation houses where the majority are occupied by people of african origin, who have no respect of their enviroment.
One question to all you educated people out there, What constitutes a racist? This word is banded around and I am beginging to feel like one, with my above answers, by the way I will be voting UKIP at the next election but it will make no difference as I live in a safe Labour Seat.
We don't speak Italian.
They got an english speaking person down to communicate between us.
She received first class care and was at no cost to ourselves.
Just saying
But yet again, you come back with no solutions, just belittling those perceptions with not particularly persausive answers as to why an individual shouldn't vote UKIP.
Again, you need to step back from trying to pick holes in everything UKIP do or say and ask yourself why the likes of the good people of Clacton deserted the old regime.
And of course your 'no name calling and back to the debate' stance didn't last very long did it?
Just saying.
Not may I add from reading a spread sheet hundreds of miles away or from train window when I commute to the city.
Nevertheless you want solutions from me. OK:
1. Benefits and health tourism. Implement a six month period in work before any newcomers can claim benefits.As they do in Poland !!!!! can be done tomorrow.
2. School spaces. Difficult. I'm not equipped to answer that one
3. Lack of jobs. Enough with "austerity". Invest in the country's infrastructure, and R&D. Fund it by taxing multinationals and super wealthy "immigrants" like Abramovic, fairly. Which by the way means getting more, smarter people into the Inland Revenue, to work on the big stuff instead of hassling Charlton Lifers for £500.
4. lack of wage rises. Not sure you can have a policy that guarantees wage rises across the board. But in a healthy growing economy, wages tend to rise. So see 3 above
5. Congested roads? Where to start..35 years of neglect...encourage people to choose their cars less by abandoning the current ridiculous form of rail and bus privatisation, invest in trams, create proper cycle lanes. Basically, do what the Germans do. Although they too have traffic congestion, its a fact of life, people like their cars.
6. Lack of adequate housing. Got to be careful here, others will have a clearer idea of what works, but generally we need a strategy for building more affordable housing, and one such strategy is to support cities such as Oxford and Cambridge for development, as Evan Davies suggested in his programme on London. And as per 3, proper taxes on the super rich foreign buyers of London property.
Best I can do off the cuff, but you asked, and I have answered.
It would seem, that many of the posters on this thread, who appear to be, the most opposed to UKIP, live abroad, mainly in other European countries. Therefore, it is not surprising that these posters are pro the EU. I wouldn't expect anything else.
What I do find slightly surprising, is their strongly held views, when they don't live here and don't live with the day to day realities of a population, that is rising massively and shows no signs, of not continuing to rise massively.
You would have thought that it was fairly easy to understand, that an extra 200,000 net, people coming in to the country every year, will mean more people needing everything. This of course encompasses needing housing, school places, hospitals, GP appointments, roads, everything in fact. Obviously these factors impact on everyone to a greater or lesser extent.
Yes, things can be done to try to alleviate all of these issues, but it doesn't make it right does it ?
Address the issue. If you're banging your head on the wall, stop banging your head. Don't start taking headache pills and plasters to address the issue.
Do the pro EU supporters, think Britain should ever be allowed to control EU immigration ?
Do they think we should theoretically, have Britain with an ever increasing population, whilst most other European countries have perhaps falling populations ?
Is Britain ever allowed to say, we reserve the right to permit in the skilled people we need, but not the people with skills, that we do not need ?
Are we allowed to say no more, when the population reaches 70M, or 75M or perhaps 100M ?
At what point are we allowed to say, we need to limit immigration, without being called racist?
Presumably, at no point.
To state the above does not make me a racist, bigot, homophobe or any other such label. It is simply someone stating facts.
Any of the major parties could have put their head above the parapet 2 or 3 elections ago but either didn't listen to their people or ignored the problem and bottled it.
Yes exactly, a country with an immigration system that works and benefits the country. Let`s not kid ourselves that Britain has a fully functioning immigration system. What it has is an attractive looking open door that has caused a free for all that extends to Asia and the bottom of Africa as the problems in the EU prove with tens of thousands of people being funnelled up from Italy and Greece towards Calais. Add unlimited EU migration to this and the numbers are unsustainable. This is not even counting newborns!
A lot of people do have something to offer but an equal number don`t and will never contribute in any positive fashion to this country. The drain and pressure on services is obvious. Deliberately targeted Government cuts make it worse.
Call me what you like, this is simply not sustainable and has to be debated and dealt with in a sensible way. People have a right to raise this issue and express their concerns without the pathetic, childish race card being thrown at them to stifle debate.