Deaths of horses at Cheltenham race course
Comments
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Yeah.....charltonkeston said:
Do race horses naturally occur or have they been bred by man to what they are today?brogib said:
Eating meat and sports such as horse racing gives the animals involved value. What would you say would happen to the animals both individually and as a species if you had your way?AddickUpNorth said:It always makes me chuckle when people choose to fall back on the 'if it wasn't for the racing industry/meat industry/dairy industry/leather industry etc etc there wouldn't be these animals' argument when it comes to discussing animal rights and what may or may not constitute abuse. I'm sure the animals born into an unnatural, short lived existence of exploitation are grateful for your compassionate reasoning.
I know they are sort of traceable back to some Arabian horse but like many animals they exist because we want them to.
Most domestic breeds of everything have been made up or changed by man, would you be happy to see em all disappear?0 -
Yes they do naturally occur.charltonkeston said:
Do race horses naturally occur or have they been bred by man to what they are today?brogib said:
Eating meat and sports such as horse racing gives the animals involved value. What would you say would happen to the animals both individually and as a species if you had your way?AddickUpNorth said:It always makes me chuckle when people choose to fall back on the 'if it wasn't for the racing industry/meat industry/dairy industry/leather industry etc etc there wouldn't be these animals' argument when it comes to discussing animal rights and what may or may not constitute abuse. I'm sure the animals born into an unnatural, short lived existence of exploitation are grateful for your compassionate reasoning.
I know they are sort of traceable back to some Arabian horse but like many animals they exist because we want them to.
http://archaeology.about.com/od/domestications/qt/horses.htm0 -
Yeah, they would not exist if it were not for humans racing horses or a lot of animals bred for eating.brogib said:
Yeah.....charltonkeston said:
Do race horses naturally occur or have they been bred by man to what they are today?brogib said:
Eating meat and sports such as horse racing gives the animals involved value. What would you say would happen to the animals both individually and as a species if you had your way?AddickUpNorth said:It always makes me chuckle when people choose to fall back on the 'if it wasn't for the racing industry/meat industry/dairy industry/leather industry etc etc there wouldn't be these animals' argument when it comes to discussing animal rights and what may or may not constitute abuse. I'm sure the animals born into an unnatural, short lived existence of exploitation are grateful for your compassionate reasoning.
I know they are sort of traceable back to some Arabian horse but like many animals they exist because we want them to.
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First up, thanks @Anna_Kissed for respecting and not derailing the other thread.
be gpod if those contributing to this thread could respectfully do the same3 -
Keeping it to the race horses then; what should we do with them?charltonkeston said:
Yeah, they would not exist if it were not for humans racing horses or a lot of animals bred for eating.brogib said:
Yeah.....charltonkeston said:
Do race horses naturally occur or have they been bred by man to what they are today?brogib said:
Eating meat and sports such as horse racing gives the animals involved value. What would you say would happen to the animals both individually and as a species if you had your way?AddickUpNorth said:It always makes me chuckle when people choose to fall back on the 'if it wasn't for the racing industry/meat industry/dairy industry/leather industry etc etc there wouldn't be these animals' argument when it comes to discussing animal rights and what may or may not constitute abuse. I'm sure the animals born into an unnatural, short lived existence of exploitation are grateful for your compassionate reasoning.
I know they are sort of traceable back to some Arabian horse but like many animals they exist because we want them to.0 -
brogib said:
Eating meat and sports such as horse racing gives the animals involved value. What would you say would happen to the animals both individually and as a species if you had your way?AddickUpNorth said:It always makes me chuckle when people choose to fall back on the 'if it wasn't for the racing industry/meat industry/dairy industry/leather industry etc etc there wouldn't be these animals' argument when it comes to discussing animal rights and what may or may not constitute abuse. I'm sure the animals born into an unnatural, short lived existence of exploitation are grateful for your compassionate reasoning.
You know how I'd like the world to be if I had my way Rob, I've nailed my hippy, tree-hugging utopian vision to the CL board a few times. In my peacenik view of life, man would put down their knives and welcome liberated farm animals into their homes as pets, much like they do cats and dogs. Is that ever going to happen? Of course it's not. Although there is a growing number of farm sanctuaries being established, no way could they home all the animals left if there was a sudden ending to intensive factory farming.
As an animal lover would I mourn the demise of the modern day broiler hen, intensively bred to grow into a grotesque, bloated version of a chicken? With a heavy heart I would say no because how they are forced to live their lives goes against nature. That is just one example but pertinent if you want to talk about 'value'. Value to whom? Due to the nature of the beast so to speak the industries I mentioned, the animals have very little concept of their value, only a true idea of a hellish existence. So value surely can only boil down to a monetary one which only benefits one species - man. And sadly their is a lot of value ie £s in the exploitation of animals.
Charltonkeston hit the nail on the head.8 -
Good thread.
£25 up today, cant sniff at that!3 -
You've chosen to focus on intensively farmed animals (chickens); as a meat eater I'm totally against this type farming and, when I do buy meat it will only be from suppliers that treat their animals with compassion and respect. As you know though, I try to harvest all my meat from Ole Mother Nature's larder so most of what we eat is 100% taken out of this world with the utmost dignity I can assure you of thatAddickUpNorth said:brogib said:
Eating meat and sports such as horse racing gives the animals involved value. What would you say would happen to the animals both individually and as a species if you had your way?AddickUpNorth said:It always makes me chuckle when people choose to fall back on the 'if it wasn't for the racing industry/meat industry/dairy industry/leather industry etc etc there wouldn't be these animals' argument when it comes to discussing animal rights and what may or may not constitute abuse. I'm sure the animals born into an unnatural, short lived existence of exploitation are grateful for your compassionate reasoning.
You know how I'd like the world to be if I had my way Rob, I've nailed my hippy, tree-hugging utopian vision to the CL board a few times. In my peacenik view of life, man would put down their knives and welcome liberated farm animals into their homes as pets, much like they do cats and dogs. Is that ever going to happen? Of course it's not. Although there is a growing number of farm sanctuaries being established, no way could they home all the animals left if there was a sudden ending to intensive factory farming.
As an animal lover would I mourn the demise of the modern day broiler hen, intensively bred to grow into a grotesque, bloated version of a chicken? With a heavy heart I would say no because how they are forced to live their lives goes against nature. That is just one example but pertinent if you want to talk about 'value'. Value to whom? Due to the nature of the beast so to speak the industries I mentioned, the animals have very little concept of their value, only a true idea of a hellish existence. So value surely can only boil down to a monetary one which only benefits one species - man. And sadly their is a lot of value ie £s in the exploitation of animals.
Charltonkeston hit the nail on the head.0 -
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140,000 species of plants and animals are becoming extinct every year, intensive farming (particularly of cattle, causing massive destruction of habitats) is the main cause of this. The argument that animals bred for sport and meat would become extinct is laughable in the light of these figures.
I often watch herds of semi wild horses on the Preseli hills while I'm photographing up there, they are beautiful and communal animals and wouldn't be in the slightest affected by the end of horse racing.2 -
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Just cherry picked a bit from that;Absurdistan said:
Yes they do naturally occur.charltonkeston said:
Do race horses naturally occur or have they been bred by man to what they are today?brogib said:
Eating meat and sports such as horse racing gives the animals involved value. What would you say would happen to the animals both individually and as a species if you had your way?AddickUpNorth said:It always makes me chuckle when people choose to fall back on the 'if it wasn't for the racing industry/meat industry/dairy industry/leather industry etc etc there wouldn't be these animals' argument when it comes to discussing animal rights and what may or may not constitute abuse. I'm sure the animals born into an unnatural, short lived existence of exploitation are grateful for your compassionate reasoning.
I know they are sort of traceable back to some Arabian horse but like many animals they exist because we want them to.
http://archaeology.about.com/od/domestications/qt/horses.htm
"The Thoroughbred Gene
A recent DNA study (Bower et al.) examined the DNA of Thoroughbred racing horses, and identified the specific allele which drives their speed and precocity. Thoroughbreds are a specific breed of horse, all of whom today are descended from the children of one of three foundation stallions: Byerley Turk (imported to England in the 1680s), Darley Arabian (1704) and Godolphin Arabian (1729). These stallions are all of Arab, Barb and Turk origin; their descendants are from one of only 74 British and imported mares. Horse breeding histories for Thoroughbreds have been recorded in the General Stud Book since 1791, and the genetic data certainly support that history."
So natural,sort of, but not really. More a product of selective breeding.
Are there any places in the world where the "Thoroughbred" roams today or in the past?
Would be a tad cruel to get rid of them and a lot of people earn a living from them.brogib said:
Keeping it to the race horses then; what should we do with them?charltonkeston said:
Yeah, they would not exist if it were not for humans racing horses or a lot of animals bred for eating.brogib said:
Yeah.....charltonkeston said:
Do race horses naturally occur or have they been bred by man to what they are today?brogib said:
Eating meat and sports such as horse racing gives the animals involved value. What would you say would happen to the animals both individually and as a species if you had your way?AddickUpNorth said:It always makes me chuckle when people choose to fall back on the 'if it wasn't for the racing industry/meat industry/dairy industry/leather industry etc etc there wouldn't be these animals' argument when it comes to discussing animal rights and what may or may not constitute abuse. I'm sure the animals born into an unnatural, short lived existence of exploitation are grateful for your compassionate reasoning.
I know they are sort of traceable back to some Arabian horse but like many animals they exist because we want them to.
So we might as well keep them.
I'm a bit anti any sport that involves animals but I'm sure racehorses are better looked after than most other farm animals and probably their healthcare is a world away from greyhounds.0 -
No one's advocating intensive farming though are they, but just out of interest; where did you get your figures from?Shrew said:140,000 species of plants and animals are becoming extinct every year, intensive farming (particularly of cattle, causing massive destruction of habitats) is the main cause of this. The argument that animals bred for sport and meat would become extinct is laughable in the light of these figures.
Nor would rabbits or turtles, but race horses would be though wouldn't theyShrew said:I often watch herds of semi wild horses on the Preseli hills while I'm photographing up there, they are beautiful and communal animals and wouldn't be in the slightest affected by the end of horse racing.
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£25? Half a g says you can.soapy_jones said:Good thread.
£25 up today, cant sniff at that!6 -
I'm actually quite bored of this argument but compelled to have another say,
Lets say for example, shire horses used for ploughing. One of the main reasons they were bred was for there strength in tilling the earth, due to progress in farm machinery this has been drastically reduced in the UK. But people still care for, keep and breed shire horses. If horse racing was to be drastically reduced due to welfare concerns a similar thing would happen with race horse breeds.2 -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/wildlife/4375277/Shire-horses-on-the-brink-of-extinction-experts-warn.html
http://www.farmersguardian.com/home/equestrian/equestrian-features/no-room-for-complacency-a-shire-horse-is-now-a-rare-breed/39593.article
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/404545/UK-shire-horses-on-brink-of-extinction
Next0 -
The argument is a valid one, but the industry raises millions of pounds if not billions across the world in tax and wages for thousands of people, it gives great pleasure to many and life is a tough place and the world harsh,
In an ideal world there would be no disease there would be no pain or suffering to any living thing
But In the real world ppeople and animals die and during that time they give pleasure to family and friends
I don't believe fox hunting should have been banned
I do believe endangered species should be protected
And levels put in place for fishing farming and other aspects that include humans gaining pleasure from and earning money from animals either in sport or game or for food and profit
If there planet ever changes and animal's take control of the world many humans will die for the same reasons and the animals won't give a shit
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George Orwell wrote, "All animals are equal - but some are more equal than others".
Thought provoking post, Anna_Kissed.
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It makes you bored and yet you come up with a poor argument like that. Charities and private owners struggle to keep these old working breeds alive! I'm not saying it's right, but give any domesticated animal a value and it will be with us, in healthy numbers, forever.Shrew said:I'm actually quite bored of this argument but compelled to have another say,
Lets say for example, shire horses used for ploughing. One of the main reasons they were bred was for there strength in tilling the earth, due to progress in farm machinery this has been drastically reduced in the UK. But people still care for, keep and breed shire horses. If horse racing was to be drastically reduced due to welfare concerns a similar thing would happen with race horse breeds.1 -
Atleast the ecologically friendly, animal loving, plant saving anti horse racing brigade have a serious, coherent political party behind them, come May. Oh...1
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I ate horse in Iceland last month, I have also rode a horse which is like slavery I suppose, and bet on the horses. (Am up £250 at Cheltenham so far) I can honestly say just like Anna I love HORSE!
Oh wait?
P.s. I know where you are coming from though.
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And the other political partys throughout the world (not just our rabble) have coherent policys while knowing the world is going pear shaped.alan dugdale said:Atleast the ecologically friendly, animal loving, plant saving anti horse racing brigade have a serious, coherent political party behind them, come May. Oh...
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Where in this wide world can man find nobility without pride,
Friendship without envy,
Or beauty without vanity?
Here, where grace is served with muscle
And strength by gentleness confined
He serves without servility; he has fought without enmity.
There is nothing so powerful, nothing less violent.
There is nothing so quick, nothing more patient.
Ronald Duncan
The Horse, 1954.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I am unashamedly a lover of National Hunt racing and have been an owner for almost 20 years. I've known the distress of watching my horse be put to sleep after breaking a leg at Cheltenham and I cried almost as much as when my mother died. Nonetheless, I still own a racehorse.....he's not a star at racing but he loves it and goes point to pointing with his pony buddy to keep him company. He's the tops so far as I and my wife are concerned and there's no expense spared when it comes to his wellbeing. When he retires, we'll do what we've done with our other retired racehorses; give him (and some cash to help them along) to someone who will give him a good home and a new career as a hack or show him or do dressage or eventing.
I can only speak for myself and from my experience but THE NUMBER ONE consideration for me and the trainers of my horses has been the horse's wellbeing. BUT they are bred to race and jump and that is what most of them (certainly all of mine) love to do.
I have to admit that there are plenty of people involved in racing who (IMHO) do not have sufficient care for the welfare of their horses, just as there is a depressing number of people in the general population who neglect and even abuse all manner of animals.
Racing must always be mindful as to improving the welfare of racehorses but sometimes, some of the anti-racing lobby, might just give some credit where it's due.
The modifications made at Aintree (and indeed at Cheltenham) to fences and to ground conditions have had a material effect in reducing casualties, though of course they can never be eliminated. The biggest cheer from the crowd at the 2013 GN wasn't for the winner (well not many were on him!) but for the announcement a few minutes after the start that ALL 40 RUNNERS had made it past Becher's Brook - the first time that had happened since 1839 when the inaugural running of the race gave rise to the naming of that fence.
Horse racing will not be banned, thankfully, but the racing authorities need to continue to be focussed on horses' welfare. They have been in recent years and that ought to be welcomed or at least acknowledged by all.
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It's not a sport!2
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I own a racehorse and have been around the stables and they are treated as all parents treat there children.Racehorses have a far better quality of life than the horses you see just out in a field.Find the whole against horse racing thing so annoying and as stated above I bet the people moaning do eat,wear or use something to do with animals.But I guess the world needs its do gooders just wish you would all stop annoying me or being hypocritical.For all that moan about horse racing and really do not eat,use or wear anything to do with animals I apoligise to you.2
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I've read this thread again this morning and I think there has been a massive over-reaction on the part of some pro-racers. Several posts read as if people had said that racing should be banned. I can't find anywhere that this has actually been said. For my part it is unacceptable that horse deaths should be treated as anything but freak accidents just as human deaths are in other sports. There may genuinely be a time when there is nothing more to be done to make safety improvements. I don't accept for one minute that that point has come when horse deaths are occurring at a rate of nearly three per week. I am no expert, but it seems to me from an outside perspective that there are lots of initiatives that could be taken. Perhaps: A total ban on the whip; greater restrictions on fences (heights, depths and frequencies); research into fence spacing; research into horse fatigue and recovery; investigations into the bloodline of all fallers - are there any trends?; automatic suspension of fences where there have been fallers; better medical facilities at grounds; races to be halted as soon as there is a faller. That's just a quick few thoughts off the top of my head. I am not saying that they would all work, but I am sure that if the wit and wisdom of the entire horse racing community were harnessed to tackle this problem they could make massive improvements. As I see it though, the will to do that is just not there at the moment.
It is interesting that PeanutsMolloy cites the 2013 Grand National cheer as a positive. I see things very differently though. That it would take 168 races before they could get every horse past one fence without fallers does not signify to me the love that owners claim to have for their animals. It signifies a historical lack of regard for animal welfare. I'd love to take that cheer as a sign that that things have changed for the better, but the 150 horse deaths since then suggest that any improvements made have been insufficient.
I agree with Peanuts that racing will not be banned; I certainly would not want it to be. I agree with him that "the racing authorities need to continue to be focussed on horses' welfare", and also that credit should be given where due. But, I don't think it's enough to leave it just to 'the authorities', greater concern needs to come from every owner, every trainer, every jockey, every commentator, every punter. I'm not hearing them all speaking out about this though; I'm hearing the deafening silence of people standing with there fingers in their ears pretending that there's not much the matter, whilst putting another pony on Boston Bob for the Gold Cup.7 -
I nearly had a few quid on rolling star. Lucky I saved my money.Anna_Kissed said:The Cheltenham thread being about horse racing and betting on the outcome of horse racing, here is an alternative view, that records the deaths of the innocent creatures involved. You bet, they die.
Day one: Theatre Queen Fell. Injured. Destroyed
Day two: Rolling Star Fell. Dead.
horsedeathwatch.com/0 -
I'm on the fence on this one.2
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Bookies should still pay on a dead heatAddickted said:
Typical.Anna_Kissed said:
Day one: Theatre Queen Fell. Injured. Destroyed
Day two: Rolling Star Fell. Dead.
horsedeathwatch.com/
I had a fiver each way on both of them.1 -
A lot of folk are disturbed by horse racing, especially when stuff/information like this is put out.
I certainly didn't know the stuff about hobbling, whips, and horses tongues. it may be that the stuff presented here is skewed or biased, in fact it is likely to be, just as the stuff in favour of the sport is likely to be too, but it is worrying none the less.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g5Ni-y591M 0 -
Accepting that horses run and jump for fun in the wild, it makes them fit and ready to flee from wolves.
So horse racing is just a game for horses where we set the rules. If they didn't like it they would stop running and jumping when they lost their jockey.
All that happens is the risks of injury or death are increased than in the wild. Against that they don't get chased and eaten by wolves.
Why do people assume horses are worrying about dying prematurely just because humans do.1
