I wonder when the unions will start striking with the sole purpose of undemocratically bringing down a government?
A 'democratic' government where the vast majority of the media are run by Conservative supported owners, where the whole debate is based on lies, false premise, scaremongering and whipped up fear.
I wonder how long it will be before the right wing build up another set of people to demonise so that they can get really worked up, make up a law to outlaw any kind of opposition of any kind whatsoever ?
So Cameron lays on more food banks than Blair and Brown put together!
; )
I note the wink face Rob but I honestly can't smile at the fact that nearly one million people in the UK have had to access a food bank in the past year (source: the Trussell Trust). I think it's fucking shameful tbh. And I don't really care who's to blame, the simple fact is British families should not have to face the fear of their kids going hungry whilst politicians continue to pay subsidies to multi-national corporations.
Abusing and lashing out at our fishy interlocutor doesn't work. He's very smart, knows his stuff and won't overstep the mark often. He's also a troll, but in a fairly subtle way. He wants us to lose the plot while he retains his composure. He has the agenda of discrediting the Left by exposing its idiocies. It is our job to demonstrate its virtues. I don't actually think our principles are so far from his own. I even voted the same way as him at the previous election. I say we form an uneasy coalition and work with Fiiish for the next five years. It may help to put our own convictions into deeper perspective. Until they sell off the hospitals, then we can pile in
'Very smart, knows his stuff.......? He certainly knows how to use google.....I give you that!
Have you seen the way he has started scheming, sucking up to our rulers, building alliances, instructing his little army of acolytes to spear posters who disagree with him with the dreaded Abuse Flags.
Be warned. He is CL's very own Little Finger.
An alliance could be fatal.
Do you not value your limbs...........or your knob?
Last warning now as the same people obviously haven't taken any notice of the polite one yesterday. Turn it in now, either fishing for a rise or posting about a poster and not the subject. More than one of you are making yourselves look really pathetic.
No further abusive posts, sly comments or digs, otherwise we'll have to kill the subject for everyone or consider some exclusions, and we really don't want to do the later.
Just been reading the BBC page on why the Polls got is so wrong.
As on here, shy Conservatives were mentioned. It's a possibility, but if so, they why are they shy?
My own view it that maybe Labour voters feel more that they are doing it for social reasons and like announce this whereas more Tories maybe do it for personal reasons and don't?
Well as I've found out for myself in the last few days that if you go anywhere near the election topic with people then there are always lefties talking about Tories being "self interested", "hateful" and god knows what other expletives.
Not really worth the hassle personally. Everyone has a vote which does all the talking. And Tories won it, end of.
Infact the only 'hate' and air of 'self importance' I've been observing the past few days have been from those who aren't happy with the result shouting down those who beg to differ.
So much for equal opportunity for everyone having their own voice.
Last warning now as the same people obviously haven't taken any notice of the polite one yesterday. Turn it in now, either fishing for a rise or posting about a poster and not the subject. More than one of you are making yourselves look really pathetic.
No further abusive posts, sly comments or digs, otherwise we'll have to kill the subject for everyone or consider some exclusions, and we really don't want to do the later.
Thank you
Yeah!
Seriously I thought I was bitter yesterday, another day another fight but not with each other. At the end of the day the reason we all got so passionate about the election is because we all care. We all care about the future of this country as we all care about the future of our football team. We will never all agree who are the right people to run the country just like we will never all agree on the right manager or best team for Charlton. We manage to discuss football without tearing each other's eyes out, the same should go for politics because at the end of the day we are still ultimately on the same side.
This discussion has been excellent in places and mostly civil, given the difference in opinions and as has stayed open thus far, let's not ruin it.
Just got the record I don't think anyone on this thread is a WUM or guilty of trolling just with politics and other passionate debates everyone wants to be the one to shout loudest and have the last word. I have been guilty of this too, so let's all give AFKA a break and be civil and get back to intelligent debate rather than arguing.
Last warning now as the same people obviously haven't taken any notice of the polite one yesterday. Turn it in now, either fishing for a rise or posting about a poster and not the subject. More than one of you are making yourselves look really pathetic.
No further abusive posts, sly comments or digs, otherwise we'll have to kill the subject for everyone or consider some exclusions, and we really don't want to do the later.
Thank you
Yeah!
Seriously I thought I was bitter yesterday, another day another fight but not with each other. At the end of the day the reason we all got so passionate about the election is because we all care. We all care about the future of this country as we all care about the future of our football team. We will never all agree who are the right people to run the country just like we will never all agree on the right manager or best team for Charlton. We manage to discuss football without tearing each other's eyes out, the same should go for politics because at the end of the day we are still ultimately on the same side.
This discussion has been excellent in places and mostly civil, given the difference in opinions and as has stayed open thus far, let's not ruin it.
Just got the record I don't think anyone on this thread is a WUM or guilty of trolling just with politics and other passionate debates everyone wants to be the one to shout loudest and have the last word. I have been guilty of this too, so let's all give AFKA a break and be civil and get back to intelligent debate rather than arguing.
Waking up to the news that Tories are seriously talking about repealing the Fox Hunting ban has really lifted my spirits. People under 30 have no real idea what Fox Hunting is about. A lot of them who voted Tory on Thursday will be truly shocked and sickened to the stomach when they start seeing graphic images of foxes being savagely mutilated start popping up on their smartphones and Facebook pages. Together with images of toffs sitting on their horses on Boxing Day looking down on the plebs it is a guaranteed vote winner.
They Tories will be able to carry through boundary changes, carry on breaking up the Union and build in an inbuilt majority of themselves in England. The Conservatives think they can do what they like and do not have to pretend anymore.
I think Fiiish's comment about "declawing" UKIP with regard to Cameron offering an in / out referendum is absolutely correct.
When was the offer made ? 18 months, 2 years ago ? It was a knee jerk reaction to the rise of UKIP and the Tory realisation that in all probability that they (the Tories) were more likely to lose votes to Farage than Labour.
I bet he regrets that decision now. It's going to hang like a cloud over this parliament and is a real problem for business confidence and therefore the growth of the economy.
I need to look it up but I'm fairly certain that the terms of the referendum were promised as in or out. That's very dangerous for the country and the government.
Can you imagine how big business will react to an out vote facilitated by a conservative government.
My best guess is that Cameron will drag out the negotiations with the complicity of Merkel and Hollande to make it impossible to hold a referendum on his watch. He'll be happy to pass the baton on.
The whole mess is of his own making and now he's between a rock and a hard place.
Here's the thing: We can look at the whole issue through a different lens now that the election is over.
Firstly polls suggest that there is a 45% to 35% lead in favour of staying in. It was the other way five years ago and some commentators link that to the Euro crisis. That rings true but I also think UKIP have unintentionally crystallised the issue and support has shifted - it will be interesting to see attitudinal research on this.
Secondly, Cameron has squeezed UKIP and brought some of those voters back "home" as well as appearing to offer choice to the people. In retrospect he has gambled (recklessly?) and won.
On the negotiations, European diplomats and politicians are puzzled as to what Cameron actually wants in terms of changes. The reality is some things are simply not on the table and others are probably quite simple to agree.
UKIP may have secured backing from wherever but my perception is that big money and big business will back a "yes" campaign as in staying in. Once Cameron has a mix of token and perhaps some real changes agreed I am hopeful that common sense prevails and the economic case for staying in simply crushes any attempts to isolate our country.
Unlike the Scottish question this one will go away for another 30-40 years should there be a "yes" vote.
So in retrospect and having seen a February 2015 poll, Miliband made an error not to give people a choice, no matter whether it was Farrage who brought up the question. My stance was always don't go to a vote if you think you might not win plus the distraction etc. But leadership means that you have to take people through the difficult choices as well as the easy ones.
There is a risk and that the UK votes no and the SNP demand cessation as a result. But the question raised isn't solved with prevarication.
I expect this deserves it's own thread as it is going to be a very big discussion over the next two years.
They Tories will be able to carry through boundary changes, carry on breaking up the Union and build in an inbuilt majority of themselves in England. The Conservatives think they can do what they like and do not have to pretend anymore.
This is one of the things that worries me they have got the overall majority so they have the people's trust, they haven't got to succumb to the liberals demands or be calmed by anyone a bit left. Cameron has already made it clear that he would not be serving a 3rd term so I can see him/them being ruthless and punishing. I hope to God I'm wrong but I can see things getting very bad very quickly. Already they want to get rid of long council tenancies, cut care in the community grants, shut down disabled services, close more sure start centres, cut child benefit, freeze other benefits below inflation, lower the cap by a further 3000 a year, reviews on DLA and pensions and bring back fox hunting. We are only in the first day, it's going to be a bumpy ride.
I wonder when the unions will start striking with the sole purpose of undemocratically bringing down a government?
The "sole purpose of undemocractically bringing down a government"??? Nothing to do with protecting their member's job, pay and working conditions in the face of an employer intent on pushing through their ideologically driven policy of austerity then.
It's 2015 not 1975, the unions have moved on, their membership does not want to get involved in industrial action at all and the unions are NOT looking for a fight but why shouldn't they work for the best deal for their members, that is their job after all. I would expect a lot of industrial action in the next 5 years but it's bugger all to do with wanting to bring the government down.
For the record I haven't been a union member for nearly 20 years but I am seriously considering rejoining on Monday because, as the song goes, there's a storm a'coming.
15 million right whingers or I'm alright Jacks versus 13 million right thinkers. England has spoken? The cities said yes but the suburbs said no, never mind the ballot box go go go. Summer should be interesting- Add your own song title - I predict a buyout?
They Tories will be able to carry through boundary changes, carry on breaking up the Union and build in an inbuilt majority of themselves in England. The Conservatives think they can do what they like and do not have to pretend anymore.
This is one of the things that worries me they have got the overall majority so they have the people's trust, they haven't got to succumb to the liberals demands or be calmed by anyone a bit left. Cameron has already made it clear that he would not be serving a 3rd term so I can see him/them being ruthless and punishing. I hope to God I'm wrong but I can see things getting very bad very quickly. Already they want to get rid of long council tenancies, cut care in the community grants, shut down disabled services, close more sure start centres, cut child benefit, freeze other benefits below inflation, lower the cap by a further 3000 a year, reviews on DLA and pensions and bring back fox hunting. We are only in the first day, it's going to be a bumpy ride.
More like a brutal ride. The continued removal of a safety net, will lead all to have to focus very hard on their own business to get by. By concentrating completely on your business it will led to less consideration for others as you have to clamber over others to get by. The Country is turning into the United States. Don't get ill, don't get sick, don't be without work, don't have any kind of housing difficulties or else you are in serious trouble.
I wonder when the unions will start striking with the sole purpose of undemocratically bringing down a government?
The "sole purpose of undemocractically bringing down a government"??? Nothing to do with protecting their member's job, pay and working conditions in the face of an employer intent on pushing through their ideologically driven policy of austerity then.
Which they have been democratically elected to do.
They Tories will be able to carry through boundary changes, carry on breaking up the Union and build in an inbuilt majority of themselves in England. The Conservatives think they can do what they like and do not have to pretend anymore.
This is one of the things that worries me they have got the overall majority so they have the people's trust, they haven't got to succumb to the liberals demands or be calmed by anyone a bit left. Cameron has already made it clear that he would not be serving a 3rd term so I can see him/them being ruthless and punishing. I hope to God I'm wrong but I can see things getting very bad very quickly. Already they want to get rid of long council tenancies, cut care in the community grants, shut down disabled services, close more sure start centres, cut child benefit, freeze other benefits below inflation, lower the cap by a further 3000 a year, reviews on DLA and pensions and bring back fox hunting. We are only in the first day, it's going to be a bumpy ride.
I've mainly stayed out of this debate, but the above thoughts echo mine. He is already cutting the amount of seats to 600 from 2018, boundary changes are yet to be agreed but with a majority he can cut the country as he likes, (in Tories favour no doubt). I'm also now of the opinion that we will not see a different colour government in my lifetime again. Both Labour and the Lib-Dems have to rebuild and seeing as most of England is blue and Scotland 99% yellow, both the aforementioned parties are squeezed out, and have a major rebuild to do. Cameron has a very small majority currently and that will be eaten away over time, and my guess is in 3 years time he will be a lame duck, but as he brought in a law in 2010 that ties governments into 5 year terms he cant threaten his own back-bencher's with calling an election. I think I also read somewhere that a vote of no confidence now has to be above 60%/40% where as before he changed the law it was 51%/49%. So we will potentially be stuck with a lame duck government unable to move unless he succumbs to the euro-sceptic right and urges the UK to vote no in any referendum as part of the deal to keep him being able to do parliamentary business. In my opinion leaving the EU is bad news, but thats for another debate in the future, but for now I'm worried that we are a split UK that will not be repaired anytime soon. We have a government that won 11.4 million votes out of 46.4 million cast, from an adult population of circa 70 million or put another way we are going to be governed by a party that won 36% of the votes cast or 16.3% of the adult population. Time for PR anyone?
Some very good points, Red Midland. I had not really though about the effect of the euro sceptic right, on the Conservative government.
Conservatives though have a tendency to 'fix' the election mechanism in their favour. I would not underestimate how much they will continue to do this over the next 5 years to make sure that they win the next election after and the one after that. PR won't be part of that plan and they will not want dilution of their power.
Waking up to the news that Tories are seriously talking about repealing the Fox Hunting ban has really lifted my spirits. People under 30 have no real idea what Fox Hunting is about. A lot of them who voted Tory on Thursday will be truly shocked and sickened to the stomach when they start seeing graphic images of foxes being savagely mutilated start popping up on their smartphones and Facebook pages. Together with images of toffs sitting on their horses on Boxing Day looking down on the plebs it is a guaranteed vote winner.
Can I ask why was that news to you? Setting aside the fact that I mentioned it as a big minus (for me) early on in this thread (page 31 14 April) and even if you didn't read that it was as clear as day in their manifesto. Did you not read the manifesto to find out what you'd be voting against? In any event they are proposing a "free vote" - not whipped - so it is something that is quite likely to fail to get sufficient backing I'd have thought as a significant number of townie Tory MPs know that their constituents won't stomach it. So, no story there then (with or without ridiculous imaginary class prejudice).
I wonder when the unions will start striking with the sole purpose of undemocratically bringing down a government?
A 'democratic' government where the vast majority of the media are run by Conservative supported owners, where the whole debate is based on lies, false premise, scaremongering and whipped up fear.
I wonder how long it will be before the right wing build up another set of people to demonise so that they can get really worked up, make up a law to outlaw any kind of opposition of any kind whatsoever ?
They Tories will be able to carry through boundary changes, carry on breaking up the Union and build in an inbuilt majority of themselves in England. The Conservatives think they can do what they like and do not have to pretend anymore.
Ohh, pleeeese, before you all start foaming at the mouth again about the nasty Tories, can you do some background checks before posting complete rubbish.
Boundary changes are the work of The Boundary Commission for England. To use it's own words it is responsible for conducting independent and impartial reviews (my emphasis) of the English constituencies of the UK Parliament, and providing subsequent recommendations to government on whether – and, if so, how – changes should be made to those constituency boundaries.
At present it so happens that the Conservative party is inherently disadvantaged by less than fair boundaries and constituency populations. The smallest is Na h-Eileanan an Iar in Scotland with around 22k voters and the largest is The Isle of Wight with around 111k voters. It is plainly ridiculous that somewhere can get an MP for less than a fifth of the voters that another area has.
Waking up to the news that Tories are seriously talking about repealing the Fox Hunting ban has really lifted my spirits. People under 30 have no real idea what Fox Hunting is about. A lot of them who voted Tory on Thursday will be truly shocked and sickened to the stomach when they start seeing graphic images of foxes being savagely mutilated start popping up on their smartphones and Facebook pages. Together with images of toffs sitting on their horses on Boxing Day looking down on the plebs it is a guaranteed vote winner.
Can I ask why was that news to you? Setting aside the fact that I mentioned it as a big minus (for me) early on in this thread (page 31 14 April) and even if you didn't read that it was as clear as day in their manifesto. Did you not read the manifesto to find out what you'd be voting against? In any event they are proposing a "free vote" - not whipped - so it is something that is quite likely to fail to get sufficient backing I'd have thought as a significant number of townie Tory MPs know that there constituents won't stomach it. So, no story there then (with or without ridiculous imaginary class prejudice).
I have not read the Tory manifesto. I am not a floating voter so I don't need to read the Tory manifesto to determine whether I should vote for them. I follow politics outside of elections so I know what the Tories stand for and whose interests they protect without needing to read a manifesto. I haven't read every page of this thread and certainly do not recall it being mentioned on this thread before this morning. I do not recall the issue of Fox Hunt repeal being discussed on any of the many many hours of TV news/debate coverage that I watched or the many many articles I read in newspapers and blogs over the last 4 or so weeks. Quite honestly I never thought Fox Hunting would be an issue ever again in a UK election.
Comments
The British people (err well English) have spoken
I wonder how long it will be before the right wing build up another set of people to demonise so that they can get really worked up, make up a law to outlaw any kind of opposition of any kind whatsoever ?
I note the wink face Rob but I honestly can't smile at the fact that nearly one million people in the UK have had to access a food bank in the past year (source: the Trussell Trust). I think it's fucking shameful tbh. And I don't really care who's to blame, the simple fact is British families should not have to face the fear of their kids going hungry whilst politicians continue to pay subsidies to multi-national corporations.
Have you seen the way he has started scheming, sucking up to our rulers, building alliances, instructing his little army of acolytes to spear posters who disagree with him with the dreaded Abuse Flags.
Be warned. He is CL's very own Little Finger.
An alliance could be fatal.
Do you not value your limbs...........or your knob?
No further abusive posts, sly comments or digs, otherwise we'll have to kill the subject for everyone or consider some exclusions, and we really don't want to do the later.
Thank you
Not really worth the hassle personally. Everyone has a vote which does all the talking. And Tories won it, end of.
Infact the only 'hate' and air of 'self importance' I've been observing the past few days have been from those who aren't happy with the result shouting down those who beg to differ.
So much for equal opportunity for everyone having their own voice.
Seriously I thought I was bitter yesterday, another day another fight but not with each other. At the end of the day the reason we all got so passionate about the election is because we all care. We all care about the future of this country as we all care about the future of our football team. We will never all agree who are the right people to run the country just like we will never all agree on the right manager or best team for Charlton. We manage to discuss football without tearing each other's eyes out, the same should go for politics because at the end of the day we are still ultimately on the same side.
This discussion has been excellent in places and mostly civil, given the difference in opinions and as has stayed open thus far, let's not ruin it.
Just got the record I don't think anyone on this thread is a WUM or guilty of trolling just with politics and other passionate debates everyone wants to be the one to shout loudest and have the last word. I have been guilty of this too, so let's all give AFKA a break and be civil and get back to intelligent debate rather than arguing.
Firstly polls suggest that there is a 45% to 35% lead in favour of staying in. It was the other way five years ago and some commentators link that to the Euro crisis. That rings true but I also think UKIP have unintentionally crystallised the issue and support has shifted - it will be interesting to see attitudinal research on this.
Secondly, Cameron has squeezed UKIP and brought some of those voters back "home" as well as appearing to offer choice to the people. In retrospect he has gambled (recklessly?) and won.
On the negotiations, European diplomats and politicians are puzzled as to what Cameron actually wants in terms of changes. The reality is some things are simply not on the table and others are probably quite simple to agree.
UKIP may have secured backing from wherever but my perception is that big money and big business will back a "yes" campaign as in staying in. Once Cameron has a mix of token and perhaps some real changes agreed I am hopeful that common sense prevails and the economic case for staying in simply crushes any attempts to isolate our country.
Unlike the Scottish question this one will go away for another 30-40 years should there be a "yes" vote.
So in retrospect and having seen a February 2015 poll, Miliband made an error not to give people a choice, no matter whether it was Farrage who brought up the question. My stance was always don't go to a vote if you think you might not win plus the distraction etc. But leadership means that you have to take people through the difficult choices as well as the easy ones.
There is a risk and that the UK votes no and the SNP demand cessation as a result. But the question raised isn't solved with prevarication.
I expect this deserves it's own thread as it is going to be a very big discussion over the next two years.
It's 2015 not 1975, the unions have moved on, their membership does not want to get involved in industrial action at all and the unions are NOT looking for a fight but why shouldn't they work for the best deal for their members, that is their job after all. I would expect a lot of industrial action in the next 5 years but it's bugger all to do with wanting to bring the government down.
For the record I haven't been a union member for nearly 20 years but I am seriously considering rejoining on Monday because, as the song goes, there's a storm a'coming.
In my opinion leaving the EU is bad news, but thats for another debate in the future, but for now I'm worried that we are a split UK that will not be repaired anytime soon. We have a government that won 11.4 million votes out of 46.4 million cast, from an adult population of circa 70 million or put another way we are going to be governed by a party that won 36% of the votes cast or 16.3% of the adult population. Time for PR anyone?
Conservatives though have a tendency to 'fix' the election mechanism in their favour. I would not underestimate how much they will continue to do this over the next 5 years to make sure that they win the next election after and the one after that. PR won't be part of that plan and they will not want dilution of their power.
Come on guys...
http://blogs.channel4.com/paul-mason-blog/labour-failed-win-worse/3671
Couple of interesting articles
In any event they are proposing a "free vote" - not whipped - so it is something that is quite likely to fail to get sufficient backing I'd have thought as a significant number of townie Tory MPs know that their constituents won't stomach it. So, no story there then (with or without ridiculous imaginary class prejudice).
conservativesagainstfoxhunting.com/about/
Boundary changes are the work of The Boundary Commission for England. To use it's own words it is responsible for conducting independent and impartial reviews (my emphasis) of the English constituencies of the UK Parliament, and providing subsequent recommendations to government on whether – and, if so, how – changes should be made to those constituency boundaries.
At present it so happens that the Conservative party is inherently disadvantaged by less than fair boundaries and constituency populations. The smallest is Na h-Eileanan an Iar in Scotland with around 22k voters and the largest is The Isle of Wight with around 111k voters. It is plainly ridiculous that somewhere can get an MP for less than a fifth of the voters that another area has.
Meanwhile if you are really interested try looking here boundarycommissionforengland.independent.gov.uk/ and here ukpollingreport.co.uk/2015guide/electoral-bias/
So yes, it was news to me!