I'm "in" if nothing else but to protect my employment rights - particularly in regard to the Work-time directive which the GMB have warned Cameron is opposed to. If that goes you can potentially wave goodbye to paid annual leave as well as future laws currently passing through UK courts which relate to start/finish times for those with a mobile place of work.
all immigration into Ireland and subsequently the UK is passport controlled.
You're playing with semantics here. There's passport-free travel between Ireland and the UK at all border crossings (including many airports). In an exit scenario there would be free movement for Europeans to Ireland and, potentially, an existing passport-free zone with the UK. The question is whether the passport-free zone would remain. It's not that long since border crossings in Northern Ireland had army/police checking documents.
Your comment on the Scotland question is nonsense. Scotland didn't vote to join the UK in leaving the EU. The question of EU membership was a key issue that the independence campaign had no answer for and that contributed to a No vote.
Nobody's tried to answer the questions yet. I might give it a go tomorrow or Sunday while nursing a hangover.
No @Dippenhall definitely has, and with his usual thoroughness. I was genuinely interested to hear the other side's response, and would like to think about them. That's what the whole bloody referendum lark is supposed to be about. Bu it's interesting that with Len excused, only Eddie Firmani Dippenhall wanted to rise to the challenge of those questions.
@Addickted you are confusing me with somebody else. I've never even joined in a debate on UKIP on here before. I've still got a life. But I think it was telling that on the day that Cameron's speech in Brussels was headline news, the response of UKIP was to have a bloody internal scrap. Reminded me of Millwall the last time they went to Wembley.
Ok so here are my responses to @Dippenhall. His comments in italics
Q1 - Do we buy BMWs because Germany is a fellow EU state, or because they make cracking cars. Germans will still want to buy what we are good at producing or supplying. How much of the 40%/50% of exports to the EU are we going to lose? We already send over 30% to India and Russia, add China to the mix and plenty of scope to make good any marginal reduction in EU trade. Global corporate interests, not states, dictate where trade goes.
The question was about exports, not imports of BMWs or other items the Germans make so much better than us. A clear majority of exporting or internationally trading business do not share your optimism, be they British or subsidiaries of foreign companies who have set up here
Q2 - Does anyone really think that EU countries will go for sub standard services from their EU neighbours, or still buy the best? Again, corporate interests dictate where services are sourced to best deliver for the shareholders, not a bumbling bureaucracy like the EU.
See the answer to question 1. The entities themselves are concerned. Probably because they know that in fact they have plenty of quality competition within the EU. We leave and those UK services will become both more expensive and more of a hassle for EU clients to buy into.
Q3 - We have as much in common with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Lichtenstein as Hawaii. We will negotiate what works for us not what works for a different country.
Hawaii of course is not a country bordering the EU. The more important point is that negotiation involves two sides. It is a typical Euro -out conceit that other EU countries will be falling over themselves to do a new deal with us if we leave. We are big, but we are not that big.
Q4 - The EU approach to tariffs was borne of the post war global protectionist policies. Modern tariff arrangements are based on mutually agreed terms that boost trade, not protect domestic inefficient production. Why is it assumed the EU, as a sinking economy, can negotiate better terms than could the UK when it has to accommodate dozens of different conflicting interests.
I am not clear you answered his question, but the answer to your last question is “volume"
Q5 - We pay subsidies and the EU decide how they are distributed. Take away the EU subsidy money and we use the same money to decide what and how much we subsidise any given industry.
But again, you’ve swerved his question. Particularly regarding agriculture.
Q6 - Biggest joke question. Since when has the EU had a united foreign policy or offer any security apart from on the coat tails of NATO.
Well the Americans disagree with you. They’ve been trying to gently let you down about the “Special relationship” for quite a few years now
Q7 - And the point about how much Thatcher paid as an EU contribution is what?
I think he is simply trying to guide people towards the correct figure, its not a jibe at Thatcher, but a shorthand for the deal she cut. And otherwise, you swerved the question
Q8 - Another red herring. We control our borders and why shouldn't we.
It’s not a red herring, because most people on CL who want out seem to mainly be concerned about “immigrants” and the ones that bother them most are not from other EU countries. Leaving the EU will not improve our ability to stem the flow of people from, say, Somalia, Syria, Pakistan.
Q9 - If Scotland is able to convince itself that independence from UK on the grounds of self determination is desirable, yet become a state within a federated Europe is even more desirable, the people deserve what they wish for.
In which case we (England, Wales, NI) will become even less important to the world.
Q10 - No idea. Is it suggested that a hypothetical scenario that could upset Irish nationalists dictates whether we should be in the EU or not?
I think the Good Friday Agreement is something that matters to both sides of that troubled line. You may have forgotten it in the current hysteria about Islamic terrorists, but the author knows it hasn't gone away. And an IRA terrorist got nearer to a member of my family than any terrorist in the UK since.
Prague Addick, I cringe at how weak your retorts are.
We're a country split down the middle on the EU issue, yet only one mainstream party represents half the electorate on this!
I really cannot understand those who wish to stay in. There appears to be no economic, social or environmental loss to leaving the EU. So what are we waiting for?
A lot of people/businesses could stand to lose money, at least in the short-term, due to a Brexit. This isn't just people on a gravy train but people whose business model relies on the single market and if a Brexit means they are unable to sustain that business model then understandably these people would rather not risk it. Businesses are also generally risk-averse and it has yet to be made clear how the business environment would be affected by a Brexit. It would essentially mean in any competitive industry companies would be scrambling their legal eagles at great expense to see if now EU law possibly won't apply to them how they can leverage an advantage in the marketplace. Again, this is seen as a mildly unnecessary expense.
Prague Addick, I cringe at how weak your retorts are.
We're a country split down the middle on the EU issue, yet only one mainstream party represents half the electorate on this!
I really cannot understand those who wish to stay in. There appears to be no economic, social or environmental loss to leaving the EU. So what are we waiting for?
Prague Addick, I cringe at how weak your retorts are.
We're a country split down the middle on the EU issue, yet only one mainstream party represents half the electorate on this!
I really cannot understand those who wish to stay in. There appears to be no economic, social or environmental loss to leaving the EU. So what are we waiting for?
Which mainstream party is this ? Do you mean the one with a single MP ?
Prague Addick, I cringe at how weak your retorts are.
We're a country split down the middle on the EU issue, yet only one mainstream party represents half the electorate on this!
I really cannot understand those who wish to stay in. There appears to be no economic, social or environmental loss to leaving the EU. So what are we waiting for?
Which mainstream party is this ? Do you mean the one with a single MP ?
Prague Addick, I cringe at how weak your retorts are.
We're a country split down the middle on the EU issue, yet only one mainstream party represents half the electorate on this!
I really cannot understand those who wish to stay in. There appears to be no economic, social or environmental loss to leaving the EU. So what are we waiting for?
Which mainstream party is this ? Do you mean the one with a single MP ?
Yeah the one who got 4 million votes
And whose charismatic leader failed to get elected. UKIP are a busted flush. Either way the referendum goes they are done for. If it's a Brexit then they are job done and the only policy they have is irrelevant. If it's a vote to stay in then the people have spoken and interest will wain or they can continue with their one MP even more marginalised than they are now.
Prague Addick, I cringe at how weak your retorts are.
We're a country split down the middle on the EU issue, yet only one mainstream party represents half the electorate on this!
I really cannot understand those who wish to stay in. There appears to be no economic, social or environmental loss to leaving the EU. So what are we waiting for?
Which mainstream party is this ? Do you mean the one with a single MP ?
Yeah the one who got 4 million votes
And whose charismatic leader failed to get elected. UKIP are a busted flush. Either way the referendum goes they are done for. If it's a Brexit then they are job done and the only policy they have is irrelevant. If it's a vote to stay in then the people have spoken and interest will wain or they can continue with their one MP even more marginalised than they are now.
I seem to remember the same being said about the SNP and look how that has played out post referendum. Seems rather foolish to write UKIP off this early or perhaps wishful thinking on your part.
As for the jibes about having only one MP, that's a reflection of how broken our electoral system is and in no way represents UKIP's support.
But I suppose it suits you to twist it the other way round to imply that the 3rd largest party somehow isn't mainstream.
Anyway, I'm actually open to argument on this. My feelings against the EU are that it is the triumph of big corporations and lobbying, hence a lot of small business types are the backbone of UKIP. The people running the EU set the barriers to access certain markets and create a level playing field for big companies to compete - hence things that big companies take for granted (like minimal workers rights, standardised contracts and regulations) are what they are clear on - annoying those on the right who object to rights and red tape and those on the left who object to rights being minimal and the boost given to the sorts of businesses who happily headquarter themselves in tax havens. And within the political right, there are divisions on immigration from the EU - with business-minded people wanting it and people afraid for their culture not wanting it, which I think in part underlies the split between the Tories and UKIP. (I think UKIP are actually a Thatcherite party, hence do have other policies but often end up indistinguishable from the Tories because the focus will always be on where they differ).
I think anyone who imagines there will be no impact in leaving is dreaming but the impacts will be unpredictable. I don't think the reaction of other countries in the UK to a possible English vote to leave can be dismissed as easily as Fiish wants to. I think a lot of multinationals would relocate their HQs - we get a lot because of the convenience of doing business in English and being part of a single market.
Migration isn't a big issue for me, but there is effectively free movement into most non-EU countries in Europe. The EU insist on it as part of the free market access agreement. Which model would we go for? Norway pay a lot, accept migrants, and have full access and are outside things like the CAP/CFP; Switzerland is different - I'm not sure if it is restrictions on free movement or why.
Now, there are risks of going - but what about the risks of staying? The Common Agricultural Policy and the Fisheries Policy are both appalling; they create perverse incentives to dump fish or overfish, they are not aimed at the relatively efficient English agriculture; and effectively just subsidise already rich landowners. The Transatlantic Trade Partnership that the EU is signing up to will allow companies to sue governments for things like insisting they clean up toxic waste from mines or pay minimum wages. No thanks.
Even the much vaunted social chapter is a bit crap. Written to take into account the partnership approach of German Christian Democrats, it misses the point here. What rights British workers have we have won historically; they were not granted by some sort of benevolent system, but fought for, and granted often out of fear (e.g. the post war settlement). German bosses might want to sit down with their workers and discuss how best to achieve a common aim - it's rare for British bosses to do anything like that. Companies here are anti-democratic and run as personal fiefdoms; much of our existing employment and health and safety law is not there to protect workers as much as to protect bad employers from shooting themselves in the foot and undermining their assets (i.e. their staff).
So, honestly, I don't actually know how I would vote if the referendum was tomorrow. I have to say as well, the standard of discussion on this thread is good - I would think that we're not all on the same page and may well have very different interests.
Prague Addick, I cringe at how weak your retorts are.
We're a country split down the middle on the EU issue, yet only one mainstream party represents half the electorate on this!
I really cannot understand those who wish to stay in. There appears to be no economic, social or environmental loss to leaving the EU. So what are we waiting for?
Which mainstream party is this ? Do you mean the one with a single MP ?
Yeah the one who got 4 million votes
And whose charismatic leader failed to get elected. UKIP are a busted flush. Either way the referendum goes they are done for. If it's a Brexit then they are job done and the only policy they have is irrelevant. If it's a vote to stay in then the people have spoken and interest will wain or they can continue with their one MP even more marginalised than they are now.
I seem to remember the same being said about the SNP and look how that has played out post referendum. Seems rather foolish to write UKIP off this early or perhaps wishful thinking on your part.
As for the jibes about having only one MP, that's a reflection of how broken our electoral system is and in no way represents UKIP's support.
But I suppose it suits you to twist it the other way round to imply that the 3rd largest party somehow isn't mainstream.
Sorry but that's very amusing. "Party" of one ex no mark Tory who is split from the only person in the "party" that anyone outside of parliament has ever heard of. Mainstream my arse.
Prague Addick, I cringe at how weak your retorts are.
We're a country split down the middle on the EU issue, yet only one mainstream party represents half the electorate on this!
I really cannot understand those who wish to stay in. There appears to be no economic, social or environmental loss to leaving the EU. So what are we waiting for?
Which mainstream party is this ? Do you mean the one with a single MP ?
Yeah the one who got 4 million votes
And whose charismatic leader failed to get elected. UKIP are a busted flush. Either way the referendum goes they are done for. If it's a Brexit then they are job done and the only policy they have is irrelevant. If it's a vote to stay in then the people have spoken and interest will wain or they can continue with their one MP even more marginalised than they are now.
I seem to remember the same being said about the SNP and look how that has played out post referendum. Seems rather foolish to write UKIP off this early or perhaps wishful thinking on your part.
As for the jibes about having only one MP, that's a reflection of how broken our electoral system is and in no way represents UKIP's support.
But I suppose it suits you to twist it the other way round to imply that the 3rd largest party somehow isn't mainstream.
Sorry but that's very amusing. "Party" of one ex no mark Tory who is split from the only person in the "party" that anyone outside of parliament has ever heard of. Mainstream my arse.
Well we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
I believe that a party that won the European election followed by getting the third most votes a year later in the general election is mainstream.
HQs wouldn't leave London. It's the financial capital of the world and no arbitrary political union will change that.
And when we leave, everyone will stop trading with us and cripple their economies just to say "we told you not to leave". Yeah right.
What nonsense. It's very much in Germany's interest to have all the EU business funnelled through Frankfurt rather than London. At present it's difficult because we are a member state. If that fact changes then Germany will see an opportunity to prise the enormous revenue UK gets from the financial sector away to them. The EU member states would be mad to persevere pushing the business through London.
If the UK got out of the EU, does that mean Belgium football managers/head coaches would have to get work permits and prove they are fit to be employed in the post. if so I am voting out ;-)
Prague Addick, I cringe at how weak your retorts are.
We're a country split down the middle on the EU issue, yet only one mainstream party represents half the electorate on this!
I really cannot understand those who wish to stay in. There appears to be no economic, social or environmental loss to leaving the EU. So what are we waiting for?
Which mainstream party is this ? Do you mean the one with a single MP ?
Yeah the one who got 4 million votes
And whose charismatic leader failed to get elected. UKIP are a busted flush. Either way the referendum goes they are done for. If it's a Brexit then they are job done and the only policy they have is irrelevant. If it's a vote to stay in then the people have spoken and interest will wain or they can continue with their one MP even more marginalised than they are now.
I seem to remember the same being said about the SNP and look how that has played out post referendum. Seems rather foolish to write UKIP off this early or perhaps wishful thinking on your part.
As for the jibes about having only one MP, that's a reflection of how broken our electoral system is and in no way represents UKIP's support.
But I suppose it suits you to twist it the other way round to imply that the 3rd largest party somehow isn't mainstream.
Sorry but that's very amusing. "Party" of one ex no mark Tory who is split from the only person in the "party" that anyone outside of parliament has ever heard of. Mainstream my arse.
Well we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
I believe that a party that won the European election followed by getting the third most votes a year later in the general election is mainstream.
When you say "won the European election" do you mean "had a handful of representatives elected to the European parliament and then stole a living from us by not bothering to represent anyone, preferring to stay at home being patted on the back by their peculiar 1950s fans"?
I believe a person who throws logs is known as a tosser. Have you ever thrown logs?
Prague Addick, I cringe at how weak your retorts are.
We're a country split down the middle on the EU issue, yet only one mainstream party represents half the electorate on this!
I really cannot understand those who wish to stay in. There appears to be no economic, social or environmental loss to leaving the EU. So what are we waiting for?
Which mainstream party is this ? Do you mean the one with a single MP ?
Yeah the one who got 4 million votes
And whose charismatic leader failed to get elected. UKIP are a busted flush. Either way the referendum goes they are done for. If it's a Brexit then they are job done and the only policy they have is irrelevant. If it's a vote to stay in then the people have spoken and interest will wain or they can continue with their one MP even more marginalised than they are now.
I seem to remember the same being said about the SNP and look how that has played out post referendum. Seems rather foolish to write UKIP off this early or perhaps wishful thinking on your part.
As for the jibes about having only one MP, that's a reflection of how broken our electoral system is and in no way represents UKIP's support.
But I suppose it suits you to twist it the other way round to imply that the 3rd largest party somehow isn't mainstream.
Sorry but that's very amusing. "Party" of one ex no mark Tory who is split from the only person in the "party" that anyone outside of parliament has ever heard of. Mainstream my arse.
Well we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
I believe that a party that won the European election followed by getting the third most votes a year later in the general election is mainstream.
When you say "won the European election" do you mean "had a handful of representatives elected to the European parliament and then stole a living from us by not bothering to represent anyone, preferring to stay at home being patted on the back by their peculiar 1950s fans"?
I believe a person who throws logs is known as a tosser. Have you ever thrown logs?
No, I'll just lol you this time as clearly I have upset yesterday with some basic facts and I wouldn't want to ruin your Sunday.
When I said they "won the European election" I meant they got the most votes and the most seats, it's basic democracy perhaps you should research it a bit.
You say they "had a handful of representatives elected", again perhaps you should do a bit more research as there were in fact 24 UKIP MEPs elected.
Feel free to flag this if it makes you feel better, seeing as it nearly Christmas and I know it's depressing enough being a Charlton fan currently, I wouldn't want to add to your misery.
Prague Addick, I cringe at how weak your retorts are.
We're a country split down the middle on the EU issue, yet only one mainstream party represents half the electorate on this!
I really cannot understand those who wish to stay in. There appears to be no economic, social or environmental loss to leaving the EU. So what are we waiting for?
Which mainstream party is this ? Do you mean the one with a single MP ?
Yeah the one who got 4 million votes
And whose charismatic leader failed to get elected. UKIP are a busted flush. Either way the referendum goes they are done for. If it's a Brexit then they are job done and the only policy they have is irrelevant. If it's a vote to stay in then the people have spoken and interest will wain or they can continue with their one MP even more marginalised than they are now.
I seem to remember the same being said about the SNP and look how that has played out post referendum. Seems rather foolish to write UKIP off this early or perhaps wishful thinking on your part.
As for the jibes about having only one MP, that's a reflection of how broken our electoral system is and in no way represents UKIP's support.
But I suppose it suits you to twist it the other way round to imply that the 3rd largest party somehow isn't mainstream.
Sorry but that's very amusing. "Party" of one ex no mark Tory who is split from the only person in the "party" that anyone outside of parliament has ever heard of. Mainstream my arse.
Well we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
I believe that a party that won the European election followed by getting the third most votes a year later in the general election is mainstream.
When you say "won the European election" do you mean "had a handful of representatives elected to the European parliament and then stole a living from us by not bothering to represent anyone, preferring to stay at home being patted on the back by their peculiar 1950s fans"?
I believe a person who throws logs is known as a tosser. Have you ever thrown logs?
No, I'll just lol you this time as clearly I have upset yesterday with some basic facts and I wouldn't want to ruin your Sunday.
When I said they "won the European election" I meant they got the most votes and the most seats, it's basic democracy perhaps you should research it a bit.
You say they "had a handful of representatives elected", again perhaps you should do a bit more research as there were in fact 24 UKIP MEPs elected.
Feel free to flag this if it makes you will better, seeing as it nearly Christmas and I know it's depressing enough being a Charlton fan currently, I wouldn't want to add to your misery.
You seem very focussed on this democracy malarkey. Does that include those representatives elected actually turning up and representing their constituents. UKIP is a party that doesn't deserve anyone's vote or respect on that issue alone.
Ukip ranked bottom in league table of 76 parties from across the EU On average its MEPs turned up for just 61.1% of votes over five years
Source : that left wing rag The Daily Mail.
Voting "mainstream" UKIP is like getting your ballot paper and flushing it down the toilet.
Prague Addick, I cringe at how weak your retorts are.
We're a country split down the middle on the EU issue, yet only one mainstream party represents half the electorate on this!
I really cannot understand those who wish to stay in. There appears to be no economic, social or environmental loss to leaving the EU. So what are we waiting for?
Which mainstream party is this ? Do you mean the one with a single MP ?
Yeah the one who got 4 million votes
And whose charismatic leader failed to get elected. UKIP are a busted flush. Either way the referendum goes they are done for. If it's a Brexit then they are job done and the only policy they have is irrelevant. If it's a vote to stay in then the people have spoken and interest will wain or they can continue with their one MP even more marginalised than they are now.
I seem to remember the same being said about the SNP and look how that has played out post referendum. Seems rather foolish to write UKIP off this early or perhaps wishful thinking on your part.
As for the jibes about having only one MP, that's a reflection of how broken our electoral system is and in no way represents UKIP's support.
But I suppose it suits you to twist it the other way round to imply that the 3rd largest party somehow isn't mainstream.
Sorry but that's very amusing. "Party" of one ex no mark Tory who is split from the only person in the "party" that anyone outside of parliament has ever heard of. Mainstream my arse.
Well we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
I believe that a party that won the European election followed by getting the third most votes a year later in the general election is mainstream.
When you say "won the European election" do you mean "had a handful of representatives elected to the European parliament and then stole a living from us by not bothering to represent anyone, preferring to stay at home being patted on the back by their peculiar 1950s fans"?
I believe a person who throws logs is known as a tosser. Have you ever thrown logs?
No, I'll just lol you this time as clearly I have upset yesterday with some basic facts and I wouldn't want to ruin your Sunday.
When I said they "won the European election" I meant they got the most votes and the most seats, it's basic democracy perhaps you should research it a bit.
You say they "had a handful of representatives elected", again perhaps you should do a bit more research as there were in fact 24 UKIP MEPs elected.
Feel free to flag this if it makes you will better, seeing as it nearly Christmas and I know it's depressing enough being a Charlton fan currently, I wouldn't want to add to your misery.
You seem very focussed on this democracy malarkey. Does that include those representatives elected actually turning up and representing their constituents. UKIP is a party that doesn't deserve anyone's vote or respect on that issue alone.
Ukip ranked bottom in league table of 76 parties from across the EU On average its MEPs turned up for just 61.1% of votes over five years
Source : that left wing rag The Daily Mail.
Voting "mainstream" UKIP is like getting your ballot paper and flushing it down the toilet.
You feeling OK Shooters old chap? Quoting the Daily Fail suggests you may not be feeling tickety-boo!
I just had a look at their online site - what a ghastly collection of trash, titllation, and fear mongering they are pedaling.
Prague Addick, I cringe at how weak your retorts are.
We're a country split down the middle on the EU issue, yet only one mainstream party represents half the electorate on this!
I really cannot understand those who wish to stay in. There appears to be no economic, social or environmental loss to leaving the EU. So what are we waiting for?
Which mainstream party is this ? Do you mean the one with a single MP ?
Yeah the one who got 4 million votes
And whose charismatic leader failed to get elected. UKIP are a busted flush. Either way the referendum goes they are done for. If it's a Brexit then they are job done and the only policy they have is irrelevant. If it's a vote to stay in then the people have spoken and interest will wain or they can continue with their one MP even more marginalised than they are now.
I seem to remember the same being said about the SNP and look how that has played out post referendum. Seems rather foolish to write UKIP off this early or perhaps wishful thinking on your part.
As for the jibes about having only one MP, that's a reflection of how broken our electoral system is and in no way represents UKIP's support.
But I suppose it suits you to twist it the other way round to imply that the 3rd largest party somehow isn't mainstream.
Sorry but that's very amusing. "Party" of one ex no mark Tory who is split from the only person in the "party" that anyone outside of parliament has ever heard of. Mainstream my arse.
Well we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
I believe that a party that won the European election followed by getting the third most votes a year later in the general election is mainstream.
When you say "won the European election" do you mean "had a handful of representatives elected to the European parliament and then stole a living from us by not bothering to represent anyone, preferring to stay at home being patted on the back by their peculiar 1950s fans"?
I believe a person who throws logs is known as a tosser. Have you ever thrown logs?
No, I'll just lol you this time as clearly I have upset yesterday with some basic facts and I wouldn't want to ruin your Sunday.
When I said they "won the European election" I meant they got the most votes and the most seats, it's basic democracy perhaps you should research it a bit.
You say they "had a handful of representatives elected", again perhaps you should do a bit more research as there were in fact 24 UKIP MEPs elected.
Feel free to flag this if it makes you will better, seeing as it nearly Christmas and I know it's depressing enough being a Charlton fan currently, I wouldn't want to add to your misery.
You seem very focussed on this democracy malarkey. Does that include those representatives elected actually turning up and representing their constituents. UKIP is a party that doesn't deserve anyone's vote or respect on that issue alone.
Ukip ranked bottom in league table of 76 parties from across the EU On average its MEPs turned up for just 61.1% of votes over five years
Source : that left wing rag The Daily Mail.
Voting "mainstream" UKIP is like getting your ballot paper and flushing it down the toilet.
They either turn up to the European Parliament, sign in and collect a sack full of money, then get criticised for enjoying the benefits of something they're fighting to remove
or they choose not to turn up, not collect their money and allowances, then get critcised by guardian lefties for not representing their electorate.
Funny how Europhiles deride any mention of the fact that UKIP won the MEP elections because 'MEPs are meaningless'. What's the point in having them at all? Just to give the impression that the EU is in anyway democratic?
Funny how Europhiles deride any mention of the fact that UKIP won the MEP elections because 'MEPs are meaningless'. What's the point in having them at all? Just to give the impression that the EU is in anyway democratic?
That's your opinion though isn't it. I certainly don't agree with it.
Comments
Eddie FirmaniDippenhall wanted to rise to the challenge of those questions.@Addickted you are confusing me with somebody else. I've never even joined in a debate on UKIP on here before. I've still got a life. But I think it was telling that on the day that Cameron's speech in Brussels was headline news, the response of UKIP was to have a bloody internal scrap. Reminded me of Millwall the last time they went to Wembley.
Q1 - Do we buy BMWs because Germany is a fellow EU state, or because they make cracking cars. Germans will still want to buy what we are good at producing or supplying. How much of the 40%/50% of exports to the EU are we going to lose? We already send over 30% to India and Russia, add China to the mix and plenty of scope to make good any marginal reduction in EU trade. Global corporate interests, not states, dictate where trade goes.
The question was about exports, not imports of BMWs or other items the Germans make so much better than us. A clear majority of exporting or internationally trading business do not share your optimism, be they British or subsidiaries of foreign companies who have set up here
Q2 - Does anyone really think that EU countries will go for sub standard services from their EU neighbours, or still buy the best? Again, corporate interests dictate where services are sourced to best deliver for the shareholders, not a bumbling bureaucracy like the EU.
See the answer to question 1. The entities themselves are concerned. Probably because they know that in fact they have plenty of quality competition within the EU. We leave and those UK services will become both more expensive and more of a hassle for EU clients to buy into.
Q3 - We have as much in common with Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Lichtenstein as Hawaii. We will negotiate what works for us not what works for a different country.
Hawaii of course is not a country bordering the EU. The more important point is that negotiation involves two sides. It is a typical Euro -out conceit that other EU countries will be falling over themselves to do a new deal with us if we leave. We are big, but we are not that big.
Q4 - The EU approach to tariffs was borne of the post war global protectionist policies. Modern tariff arrangements are based on mutually agreed terms that boost trade, not protect domestic inefficient production. Why is it assumed the EU, as a sinking economy, can negotiate better terms than could the UK when it has to accommodate dozens of different conflicting interests.
I am not clear you answered his question, but the answer to your last question is “volume"
Q5 - We pay subsidies and the EU decide how they are distributed. Take away the EU subsidy money and we use the same money to decide what and how much we subsidise any given industry.
But again, you’ve swerved his question. Particularly regarding agriculture.
Q6 - Biggest joke question. Since when has the EU had a united foreign policy or offer any security apart from on the coat tails of NATO.
Well the Americans disagree with you. They’ve been trying to gently let you down about the “Special relationship” for quite a few years now
Q7 - And the point about how much Thatcher paid as an EU contribution is what?
I think he is simply trying to guide people towards the correct figure, its not a jibe at Thatcher, but a shorthand for the deal she cut. And otherwise, you swerved the question
Q8 - Another red herring. We control our borders and why shouldn't we.
It’s not a red herring, because most people on CL who want out seem to mainly be concerned about “immigrants” and the ones that bother them most are not from other EU countries. Leaving the EU will not improve our ability to stem the flow of people from, say, Somalia, Syria, Pakistan.
Q9 - If Scotland is able to convince itself that independence from UK on the grounds of self determination is desirable, yet become a state within a federated Europe is even more desirable, the people deserve what they wish for.
In which case we (England, Wales, NI) will become even less important to the world.
Q10 - No idea. Is it suggested that a hypothetical scenario that could upset Irish nationalists dictates whether we should be in the EU or not?
I think the Good Friday Agreement is something that matters to both sides of that troubled line. You may have forgotten it in the current hysteria about Islamic terrorists, but the author knows it hasn't gone away. And an IRA terrorist got nearer to a member of my family than any terrorist in the UK since.
We're a country split down the middle on the EU issue, yet only one mainstream party represents half the electorate on this!
I really cannot understand those who wish to stay in. There appears to be no economic, social or environmental loss to leaving the EU. So what are we waiting for?
As for the jibes about having only one MP, that's a reflection of how broken our electoral system is and in no way represents UKIP's support.
But I suppose it suits you to twist it the other way round to imply that the 3rd largest party somehow isn't mainstream.
Anyway, I'm actually open to argument on this. My feelings against the EU are that it is the triumph of big corporations and lobbying, hence a lot of small business types are the backbone of UKIP. The people running the EU set the barriers to access certain markets and create a level playing field for big companies to compete - hence things that big companies take for granted (like minimal workers rights, standardised contracts and regulations) are what they are clear on - annoying those on the right who object to rights and red tape and those on the left who object to rights being minimal and the boost given to the sorts of businesses who happily headquarter themselves in tax havens. And within the political right, there are divisions on immigration from the EU - with business-minded people wanting it and people afraid for their culture not wanting it, which I think in part underlies the split between the Tories and UKIP. (I think UKIP are actually a Thatcherite party, hence do have other policies but often end up indistinguishable from the Tories because the focus will always be on where they differ).
I think anyone who imagines there will be no impact in leaving is dreaming but the impacts will be unpredictable. I don't think the reaction of other countries in the UK to a possible English vote to leave can be dismissed as easily as Fiish wants to. I think a lot of multinationals would relocate their HQs - we get a lot because of the convenience of doing business in English and being part of a single market.
Migration isn't a big issue for me, but there is effectively free movement into most non-EU countries in Europe. The EU insist on it as part of the free market access agreement. Which model would we go for? Norway pay a lot, accept migrants, and have full access and are outside things like the CAP/CFP; Switzerland is different - I'm not sure if it is restrictions on free movement or why.
Now, there are risks of going - but what about the risks of staying? The Common Agricultural Policy and the Fisheries Policy are both appalling; they create perverse incentives to dump fish or overfish, they are not aimed at the relatively efficient English agriculture; and effectively just subsidise already rich landowners. The Transatlantic Trade Partnership that the EU is signing up to will allow companies to sue governments for things like insisting they clean up toxic waste from mines or pay minimum wages. No thanks.
Even the much vaunted social chapter is a bit crap. Written to take into account the partnership approach of German Christian Democrats, it misses the point here. What rights British workers have we have won historically; they were not granted by some sort of benevolent system, but fought for, and granted often out of fear (e.g. the post war settlement). German bosses might want to sit down with their workers and discuss how best to achieve a common aim - it's rare for British bosses to do anything like that. Companies here are anti-democratic and run as personal fiefdoms; much of our existing employment and health and safety law is not there to protect workers as much as to protect bad employers from shooting themselves in the foot and undermining their assets (i.e. their staff).
So, honestly, I don't actually know how I would vote if the referendum was tomorrow. I have to say as well, the standard of discussion on this thread is good - I would think that we're not all on the same page and may well have very different interests.
I believe that a party that won the European election followed by getting the third most votes a year later in the general election is mainstream.
And when we leave, everyone will stop trading with us and cripple their economies just to say "we told you not to leave". Yeah right.
I believe a person who throws logs is known as a tosser. Have you ever thrown logs?
Flag that.
countryclub ;-)When I said they "won the European election" I meant they got the most votes and the most seats, it's basic democracy perhaps you should research it a bit.
You say they "had a handful of representatives elected", again perhaps you should do a bit more research as there were in fact 24 UKIP MEPs elected.
Feel free to flag this if it makes you feel better, seeing as it nearly Christmas and I know it's depressing enough being a Charlton fan currently, I wouldn't want to add to your misery.
Ukip ranked bottom in league table of 76 parties from across the EU
On average its MEPs turned up for just 61.1% of votes over five years
Source : that left wing rag The Daily Mail.
Voting "mainstream" UKIP is like getting your ballot paper and flushing it down the toilet.
Quoting the Daily Fail suggests you may not be feeling tickety-boo!
I just had a look at their online site - what a ghastly collection of trash, titllation, and fear mongering they are pedaling.
or they choose not to turn up, not collect their money and allowances, then get critcised by guardian lefties for not representing their electorate.
Can't win.