My guess is a bunch of contractors not quoting properly on the job to undercut the other and get a nice long meaty contract, then say "but we had no idea london had different types of rock going through it" etc and pushed the timings back and the costs go up.
Just generally an absolute clusterfuck
They threw the dollar at this big time when it first started.
i work in Farringdon. They had a fire alarm on site one day.
i couldn’t believe the amount of people at the muster point. Pushing 1k I reckon.
The way I would have done it would to have staggered the works. OK, Drill the shafts connect the lines. connnect trackside essential services, an fit out stations as and when. get something running east to west, and gradually introduce intermediate stations. they all have platform barriers as per jubilee line extension, so shouldn't be that difficult to implement. track and signalling should have been at the forefront of any £600+ per day planners shitty chart.
The way I would have done it would to have staggered the works. OK, Drill the shafts connect the lines. connnect trackside essential services, an fit out stations as and when. get something running east to west, and gradually introduce intermediate stations. they all have platform barriers as per jubilee line extension, so shouldn't be that difficult to implement. track and signalling should have been at the forefront of any £600+ per day planners shitty chart.
It's really easy, isn't it?
I bet you wouldn't have taken 12 years to get it built. And finished on time.
Why why do people always seem to have to blame one “side” or another. There’s blame all round here. It’s a shambles. Quite how much blame each separate person or body should take is just rearranging the deckchairs. They are all to blame and all this pointing fingers at others is just not acceptable. It’s pathetic.
Simpletons need a scapegoat.
How very smarmy of you. I forgot that Sadiq Khan is perfect and saying anything against him makes one a ‘simpleton’.
The Mayor has come in so late to this massive project that in reality he could have nil impact on it. Yes I believe he should have been quicker to call out the mess and bang a few heads together but apart from the politicking of this it would have zero impact on the delivery dates.
The way I would have done it would to have staggered the works. OK, Drill the shafts connect the lines. connnect trackside essential services, an fit out stations as and when. get something running east to west, and gradually introduce intermediate stations. they all have platform barriers as per jubilee line extension, so shouldn't be that difficult to implement. track and signalling should have been at the forefront of any £600+ per day planners shitty chart.
Love it
Absolute piece of piss this. 'Largest engineering project in Europe' my arse. Just give it to Robbo On The Wing with his lego and his copy of 'Project for Dummies' and it'll have been finished in a few months.
I appriciate that civil engineering is difficult to determine due to various unknowns. I have however, been involved in sub surface station upgrades for many years. Each come with differing challenges regarding different existing infricos. Also massaging various engineers approvals. Hence, get the infrastructure in place and argue the toss on a station by station basis. at least get something moving.
This is all down to Sir Terry Morgan who was in charge for a decade. His main previous experience seems to be overseeing the decline of Leyland Truck and Bus, and then Land Rover (allegedly). Not sure what justified the Knighthood. He claims to have warned Khan verbally about overspend/delays but neglected to email with attachments detailing budget failings. Transport ministers funding Crossrail during this time were ex-miner Patrick McGloughlin (who?) and that well known safe pair of hands, Chris Grayling.
But promises on timing and costs became more important as Crossrail closed in on its final deadline. “Bringing together all the components on time to complete a big project like Crossrail is often subject to uncertainty and risk, leading to inevitable delays and cost overruns,” says Mr Blaiklock. “Apart from the tunnels and stations, the rolling stock, escalators, power transmission and train control all need to be tested and delivered on time.”
This exposed latent governance weaknesses. “The Crossrail board was about signing things off,” says one person who sat in on board meetings. “It endorsed everything rather than challenging them and asking questions.”
Politicians meanwhile had taken their eyes off the ball. When Mr Khan became mayor two years ago he dismissed TfL’s representative on the Crossrail board, Daniel Moylan, a Conservative politician who had kept a close eye on costs, and asked all “the difficult questions” according to one individual close to the board.
“Sadiq’s attitude was to give him a call when it’s time to cut the ribbon,” says another source close to the board.
I like this quote from that article. Guess my question that no one wants to answer could be extended to worldwide?
Crossrail remains unlikely to join the ranks of such truly undistinguished infrastructure projects as Stuttgart station (costing €9bn instead of the planned €6.5bn and three years late), or Berlin airport (costing €6.5bn instead of €2bn and nine years late).
I like this quote from that article. Guess my question that no one wants to answer could be extended to worldwide?
Crossrail remains unlikely to join the ranks of such truly undistinguished infrastructure projects as Stuttgart station (costing €9bn instead of the planned €6.5bn and three years late), or Berlin airport (costing €6.5bn instead of €2bn and nine years late).
I’ll answer it.
We’re talking about Crossrail, not those projects.
If you insist on making comparisons as a way of providing excuses for the Crossrail failure then do so, but that doesn’t mean that anyone should be less accountable.
I like this quote from that article. Guess my question that no one wants to answer could be extended to worldwide?
Crossrail remains unlikely to join the ranks of such truly undistinguished infrastructure projects as Stuttgart station (costing €9bn instead of the planned €6.5bn and three years late), or Berlin airport (costing €6.5bn instead of €2bn and nine years late).
I’ll answer it.
We’re talking about Crossrail, not those projects.
If you insist on making comparisons as a way of providing excuses for the Crossrail failure then do so, but that doesn’t mean that anyone should be less accountable.
Fine, but you should make sure the right people are made accountable, rather than treating the process of accountability as a cheap political football, as you are doing.
I like this quote from that article. Guess my question that no one wants to answer could be extended to worldwide?
Crossrail remains unlikely to join the ranks of such truly undistinguished infrastructure projects as Stuttgart station (costing €9bn instead of the planned €6.5bn and three years late), or Berlin airport (costing €6.5bn instead of €2bn and nine years late).
I’ll answer it.
We’re talking about Crossrail, not those projects.
If you insist on making comparisons as a way of providing excuses for the Crossrail failure then do so, but that doesn’t mean that anyone should be less accountable.
Fine, but you should make sure the right people are made accountable, rather than treating the process of accountability as a cheap political football, as you are doing.
I’ve given my reasons as to why I think Khan has to take blame here. No doubt that blame has to extend to a number of others as well. You have absolutely no reason to suggest I’m making any comment based on any political bias.
The project was approved in 07 and construction started in 09. Sadiq, who has very little to do with the project, has been mayor of London since '16. If you can find an infrastructure project built in the UK after the ban of slaves that was completed on time let me know, bonus point if you can blame it on Sadiq.
That was the question.
Seeming as how Crossrail appears to be going comparably well, do we give the Mayor credit for something he has hardly anything to do with?
I like this quote from that article. Guess my question that no one wants to answer could be extended to worldwide?
Crossrail remains unlikely to join the ranks of such truly undistinguished infrastructure projects as Stuttgart station (costing €9bn instead of the planned €6.5bn and three years late), or Berlin airport (costing €6.5bn instead of €2bn and nine years late).
I’ll answer it.
We’re talking about Crossrail, not those projects.
If you insist on making comparisons as a way of providing excuses for the Crossrail failure then do so, but that doesn’t mean that anyone should be less accountable.
Fine, but you should make sure the right people are made accountable, rather than treating the process of accountability as a cheap political football, as you are doing.
I’ve given my reasons as to why I think Khan has to take blame here. No doubt that blame has to extend to a number of others as well. You have absolutely no reason to suggest I’m making any comment based on any political bias.
I think I do. You have not, as yet, shown that you understand the detail of what exactly has gone wrong with Crossrail, based on your comments thus far, and why therefore your primary target can justifiably be Khan rather than the very highly paid full time leaders of the project.
I like this quote from that article. Guess my question that no one wants to answer could be extended to worldwide?
Crossrail remains unlikely to join the ranks of such truly undistinguished infrastructure projects as Stuttgart station (costing €9bn instead of the planned €6.5bn and three years late), or Berlin airport (costing €6.5bn instead of €2bn and nine years late).
I’ll answer it.
We’re talking about Crossrail, not those projects.
If you insist on making comparisons as a way of providing excuses for the Crossrail failure then do so, but that doesn’t mean that anyone should be less accountable.
Fine, but you should make sure the right people are made accountable, rather than treating the process of accountability as a cheap political football, as you are doing.
I’ve given my reasons as to why I think Khan has to take blame here. No doubt that blame has to extend to a number of others as well. You have absolutely no reason to suggest I’m making any comment based on any political bias.
I think I do. You have not, as yet, shown that you understand the detail of what exactly has gone wrong with Crossrail, based on your comments thus far, and why therefore your primary target can justifiably be Khan rather than the very highly paid full time leaders of the project.
Isn't Khan the Chairman as mentioned above?
The Chairman is the top man and therefore the buck stops there a la Harry Truman. Someone above who seems to know a bit about it says that Khan sacked the bloke who was flagging the difficulties and injecting realism as more or less his first act so if that is right he isn't squeaky clean.
I like this quote from that article. Guess my question that no one wants to answer could be extended to worldwide?
Crossrail remains unlikely to join the ranks of such truly undistinguished infrastructure projects as Stuttgart station (costing €9bn instead of the planned €6.5bn and three years late), or Berlin airport (costing €6.5bn instead of €2bn and nine years late).
I’ll answer it.
We’re talking about Crossrail, not those projects.
If you insist on making comparisons as a way of providing excuses for the Crossrail failure then do so, but that doesn’t mean that anyone should be less accountable.
Fine, but you should make sure the right people are made accountable, rather than treating the process of accountability as a cheap political football, as you are doing.
I’ve given my reasons as to why I think Khan has to take blame here. No doubt that blame has to extend to a number of others as well. You have absolutely no reason to suggest I’m making any comment based on any political bias.
I think I do. You have not, as yet, shown that you understand the detail of what exactly has gone wrong with Crossrail, based on your comments thus far, and why therefore your primary target can justifiably be Khan rather than the very highly paid full time leaders of the project.
Isn't Khan the Chairman as mentioned above?
The Chairman is the top man and therefore the buck stops there a la Harry Truman. Someone above who seems to know a bit about it says that Khan sacked the bloke who was flagging the difficulties and injecting realism as more or less his first act so if that is right he isn't squeaky clean.
Are we suggesting RBS wasn't Freddie Goodwin's fault etc, etc?
Where is the accountability if not the top man?
Moylan, the bloke you claim was flagging difficulties was involved up to 2012, then for two months in 2016 until Khan was elected. Doubt he'd had time to choose his office furniture let alone make any assessments. You seem to have it in for Khan without any evidence.
@LenGlover I don't want to repeat myself but a full - time mayor being appointed chairman of something like this is a world away from being appointed chair of M&S. It's not much more than sitting on a few extra committee meetings. And you get to appoint and sack yourself, as Boris Johnson admirably demonstrated at the LLDC.
@LenGlover I don't want to repeat myself but a full - time mayor being appointed chairman of something like this is a world away from being appointed chair of M&S. It's not much more than sitting on a few extra committee meetings. And you get to appoint and sack yourself, as Boris Johnson admirably demonstrated at the LLDC.
So Khan is not to blame then surely Boris get a pass?
@LenGlover I don't want to repeat myself but a full - time mayor being appointed chairman of something like this is a world away from being appointed chair of M&S. It's not much more than sitting on a few extra committee meetings. And you get to appoint and sack yourself, as Boris Johnson admirably demonstrated at the LLDC.
So Khan is not to blame then surely Boris get a pass?
Or maybe both should be held responsible.
Good question. Here 's how I see it.
Johnson is the architect of the Stadium fiasco. It was he who:
- pushed through the idea of converting it for Big Footie (correct idea) - pushed through the idea that it had to be West Ham (reasonable in itself) - rushed through an idea that West Ham and Newham would own and build it (disaster which unravelled in weeks cos he had not checked if it fell foul of State Aid rules. It did) - then rushed through a badly written contract which has the taxpayer paying for both the Stadium build and West Ham's tenancy for the foreseeable. In return of course for generous donations from Gullivan to the Tory party. - Made sure that the LLDC fought tooth and nail not to release the contract under FOI - appointed himself Chairman when he thought he had seen the FOI threat off - made no difference whatsoever as Chairman to the runaway rebuild costs nor the contract itself and its burden on the taxpayer. - de-appointed himself Chairman when he realised the ICO had found in our favour and the contract must be released - claimed in a London Assembly meeting, in my presence, that the LLDC would not appeal the ICO decision - then got the LLDC to appeal, causing another nine month delay and two Tribunal appearances for us
You could then have fun trying to describe the equivalent level of involvement of Khan in Crossrail, what would it look like? Khan would have had to somehow be the "visionary" for the project in 1974, driven the nature of the deal for both contractors and train operators (would have been private train operators for sure) and then fought tooth and nail to cover it all up (when the issue here is that others covered up so he couldn't see the mess)
The Chairman isn't the top man of TFL, it's the commissioner. Running TFL is a full time job, despite people on here hilariously believing they can do better! Neither mayor is significantly accountable for what was predictably an incredibly difficult project.
If anyone wants to disprove me by finding a similar size project that was constructed seamlessly then please do, or carry on criticising Khan, whatever floats your boat.
The real truth is that crossrail was ready to open on time but Sadiq Khan was worried about the public moving from buses to crossrail and putting his dad out of a job.
Comments
i work in Farringdon. They had a fire alarm on site one day.
i couldn’t believe the amount of people at the muster point. Pushing 1k I reckon.
thats one station!
OK, Drill the shafts connect the lines.
connnect trackside essential services, an fit out stations as and when.
get something running east to west, and gradually introduce intermediate stations.
they all have platform barriers as per jubilee line extension, so shouldn't be that difficult to implement.
track and signalling should have been at the forefront of any £600+ per day planners shitty chart.
I bet you wouldn't have taken 12 years to get it built. And finished on time.
Absolute piece of piss this. 'Largest engineering project in Europe' my arse. Just give it to Robbo On The Wing with his lego and his copy of 'Project for Dummies' and it'll have been finished in a few months.
I have however, been involved in sub surface station upgrades for many years.
Each come with differing challenges regarding different existing infricos.
Also massaging various engineers approvals.
Hence, get the infrastructure in place and argue the toss on a station by station basis.
at least get something moving.
No irony intended.
Khan's fault? I don't think so!
FT article from December
This exposed latent governance weaknesses. “The Crossrail board was about signing things off,” says one person who sat in on board meetings. “It endorsed everything rather than challenging them and asking questions.”
Crossrail remains unlikely to join the ranks of such truly undistinguished infrastructure projects as Stuttgart station (costing €9bn instead of the planned €6.5bn and three years late), or Berlin airport (costing €6.5bn instead of €2bn and nine years late).
We’re talking about Crossrail, not those projects.
If you insist on making comparisons as a way of providing excuses for the Crossrail failure then do so, but that doesn’t mean that anyone should be less accountable.
Seeming as how Crossrail appears to be going comparably well, do we give the Mayor credit for something he has hardly anything to do with?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-48147695
Meanwhile @ Farringdon they are still Constructing, yes constructing with concrete and everything, the upper half of the station!
Won't be long they said. Just a few signalling issues to sort out they said.
Bulls**t. This project is bleeding TFL dry!
The Chairman is the top man and therefore the buck stops there a la Harry Truman. Someone above who seems to know a bit about it says that Khan sacked the bloke who was flagging the difficulties and injecting realism as more or less his first act so if that is right he isn't squeaky clean.
EDIT: @killerandflash quoting and linking to the FT.
Are we suggesting RBS wasn't Freddie Goodwin's fault etc, etc?
Where is the accountability if not the top man?
Or maybe both should be held responsible.
- pushed through the idea of converting it for Big Footie (correct idea)
- pushed through the idea that it had to be West Ham (reasonable in itself)
- rushed through an idea that West Ham and Newham would own and build it (disaster which unravelled in weeks cos he had not checked if it fell foul of State Aid rules. It did)
- then rushed through a badly written contract which has the taxpayer paying for both the Stadium build and West Ham's tenancy for the foreseeable. In return of course for generous donations from Gullivan to the Tory party.
- Made sure that the LLDC fought tooth and nail not to release the contract under FOI
- appointed himself Chairman when he thought he had seen the FOI threat off
- made no difference whatsoever as Chairman to the runaway rebuild costs nor the contract itself and its burden on the taxpayer.
- de-appointed himself Chairman when he realised the ICO had found in our favour and the contract must be released
- claimed in a London Assembly meeting, in my presence, that the LLDC would not appeal the ICO decision
- then got the LLDC to appeal, causing another nine month delay and two Tribunal appearances for us
You could then have fun trying to describe the equivalent level of involvement of Khan in Crossrail, what would it look like? Khan would have had to somehow be the "visionary" for the project in 1974, driven the nature of the deal for both contractors and train operators (would have been private train operators for sure) and then fought tooth and nail to cover it all up (when the issue here is that others covered up so he couldn't see the mess)
See what I mean?
If anyone wants to disprove me by finding a similar size project that was constructed seamlessly then please do, or carry on criticising Khan, whatever floats your boat.