Hope we have a decent sell on for Jenks. Sure he put a nought on his value this tournament. Shame Gooners have a star at RB. Still he has done a decent job on left and used to play CB so perhaps Wenger will re-evaluate.
Can the poster who claimed Garbutt's 10 games for Everton makes him a good player please apologise.
That was me. And he is a good young player, hence why he played 10 times for Everton. Stop being silly
Lots here criticised Fox for getting out of position, not getting forward, poor crossing and not preventing balls into the box. By the 2nd half of the season most had shut up because he had eradicated most but the latter. Can't say the same for Garbutt.
Silly? You started it with your user name.
Let's be clear here: you're basing this on what you've seen of Garbutt in this, what, three game championship? Or have you been following Garbutt for the past couple of seasons? I have. I have Everton fans in my family and I always take an interest in their young players and he is a very good talent. He was excellent in Everton's run in Europe and there's a reason he's just been offered a new five year deal by them. It's actually hilarious that you've pointed out that people criticised Fox for having a few bad games but showed his ability over time and then claim Garbutt is 'pants' because of what you saw in a couple of games. Is the irony completely lost on you? Actually, given your last statement I imagine it is
We've look weak and disjointed the whole tournament. Its been soooo turgid, and reflective of a team of players that look nowhere near the first team, Kane and Jenkinson aside.
Ah we don't gel, ah they're overpaid, ah they're don't play as a team, they're all individuals, not team ethic, bla bla bla bla.
No, at the end of the day they're just nowhere near as good as we make them out to be. Same as the first team. Overhyped because they're English.
Well I agree with the second part of your post. That's why I mentioned the lumping on of bets. That must have been English money, no one out here thought England were favourites.
But the question is why are we in fact crap? Got to be something to do with the way our football is organised, right, because if you take the Danes or Swedes many of those players are not going to go on as individuals to be as famous or well paid as Harry Kane.
But I can't go on too much because @Covered End gets mad at me for daring to post so early in his day.
Just think England lack creative players at youth level. Its usually the biggest and quickest that get picked up, and while it works during the teen years, once they become that little bit more senior, they get found out against technically better sides. Think we had 57% possession over the tournament, but it's all across the back. Any player that does show that creative spark at a young age is immediately fast tracked into the first team (Barkley, Sterling, Wilshere)
Just think England lack creative players at youth level. Its usually the biggest and quickest that get picked up, and while it works during the teen years, once they become that little bit more senior, they get found out against technically better sides. Think we had 57% possession over the tournament, but it's all across the back. Any player that does show that creative spark at a young age is immediately fast tracked into the first team (Barkley, Sterling, Wilshere)
Well the Czech experts certainly agreed with your first part, at least in respect of the team that played here.
However smaller countries are playing here young stars who are also already part of their senior setups. In the Czech case, Vaclav Kadlec of Sparta, who unfortunately got injured early against Germany. That was a double blow because they had wanted to call up Matej Vydra too, but bloody Watford refused. Vydra too is part of the senior squad. Serbia had the oldest squad here, because they had the U20 squad performing at the same time, they were horribly stretched, and it showed.
You know much more than me, Gary, about the individual English players available at this level, and I am sure you are right about some of the selection. But isn't there a pattern with England? A few players we get excited about, media inflates expectations, we arrive as "one of the favourites" due to the media, and fall flat on our asses. Being going on at least since the days of Sven, because 1996 was the last time an England team really performed in a big tournament
Failure as a player Failure as a pen taker Failure as a club Mgr Failure as an England u21 Mgr
Jog him on
Yes, throw him on the scrapheap that includes Sven, Capello, Pearce, Peter Taylor, etc, etc, and tell ourselves we just don't appoint the right man to get the best out of our hugely talented footballers.
Isn't it just possible that the problem might lie beyond the latest individual scapegoat?
Failure as a player Failure as a pen taker Failure as a club Mgr Failure as an England u21 Mgr
Jog him on
Yes, throw him on the scrapheap that includes Sven, Capello, Pearce, Peter Taylor, etc, etc, and tell ourselves we just don't appoint the right man to get the best out of our hugely talented footballers.
Isn't it just possible that the problem might lie beyond the latest individual scapegoat?
Yes, of course it is. But that level of introspectiveness (is that a word?) wouldn't be easy to handle in a one minute Sky Sports News bulletin or a 300 word report in a tabloid, so we'll never properly have that conversation in England and just keep on blaming the manager.
Gareth Southgate demonstrated an inability to take a fully fledged adults team to any level of success
He was always discussed in the mould of a long ball old fashioned style of Mgr
As was Pearce tbh, and boothroyd
Yet they are put in charge of a team that has players bought up on and trained by coaches who have changed from that
How will that be a positive in terms of coaching, education and development of England's youth
A bigger issue that has been skimmed over that probably tells you more about why the senior team fail yr after yr is that Steven gerrard when talking about St George's Park thought it was lacking a golf course
The failure to appoint progressive managers in the post of u21 and lower is the reason we can't produce a winning formula at that level
Pearce , Southgate, boothroyd ffs Aidy hoof ball boothroyd in charge of an England youth team
Gareth long ball Southgate in charge of u21 after he excelled in his Mgr roll where exactly
The issue is , ridiculous appointments by those responsible
And people like Gareth Southgate even applying in the first place
I will give you his managerial failures - no problem.
But a failure as a player?
470 Premier League games, two time League Cup Winner, FA Cup finalist, UEFA Cup Finalist, 57 England caps - including appearances at Euro 96, France 1998 and Euro 2000.
If that's failure then I reckon 99.99% of footballers end their careers as abject failures!
Gareth Southgate demonstrated an inability to take a fully fledged adults team to any level of success
He was always discussed in the mould of a long ball old fashioned style of Mgr
As was Pearce tbh, and boothroyd
Yet they are put in charge of a team that has players bought up on and trained by coaches who have changed from that
How will that be a positive in terms of coaching, education and development of England's youth
A bigger issue that has been skimmed over that probably tells you more about why the senior team fail yr after yr is that Steven gerrard when talking about St George's Park thought it was lacking a golf course
So the reason the English u21 team have failed in recent years is the last three managers ?
Team lacked a playmaker. Also lacked courage in its own ability – too often took the option of a backwards pass or a pass that didn’t progress a move because it then became somebody else’s responsibility to do something. Needed to be unafraid to lose the ball and play the ball more quickly and with more attacking purpose. Defense was woeful for a couple of the goals. Predicatble coaching – when you are 2-0 down at that level – worth putting on an attacking midfielder and taking off a centre half.
Players that still have a lot to prove are lauded as the key players but they haven’t done anything yet and didn’t do anything in this tournament. Thought the midfield could have benefitted from Cousins’ energy and missed Pritchard. Seems to me that the FA is a very jobs for the boys type otganisation, so the sort of progressive coaching we need is miles away.
I never really know what to say after games like that, everyone else telling me how awful we were, and yet I saw three awful things in that game (okay, four - Garbutt was terrible). Two defensive errors, both punished by goals and Ings missing a sitter.
There was some poor wayward shooting - that advertising hording to the right of the goal we were attacking in the second half must have upset our squad in some way - but we created more chances than Italy. Their keeper made a couple of very good saves, and their second goal was going wide until the deflection. Another day we win that game.
There is no doubt that the Italians looked more comfortable on the ball, so I agree with the comments on technical ability and therefore the coaching must be questioned at all levels.
I never really know what to say after games like that, everyone else telling me how awful we were, and yet I saw three awful things in that game (okay, four - Garbutt was terrible). Two defensive errors, both punished by goals and Ings missing a sitter.
There was some poor wayward shooting - that advertising hording to the right of the goal we were attacking in the second half must have upset our squad in some way - but we created more chances than Italy. Their keeper made a couple of very good saves, and their second goal was going wide until the deflection. Another day we win that game.
There is no doubt that the Italians looked more comfortable on the ball, so I agree with the comments on technical ability and therefore the coaching must be questioned at all levels.
Play that game five tomes and we would lose 3. There wasn't the quality where it mattered and the approach was too safe. A bit like the manager's characteristics!
Useless managers, weakened teams, bad coaching, long ball game .. I agree that these are major factors in the demise of English youth/ under 21 teams and English professional football players as a whole .. BUT .. Rarely, I do agree with this man and this is the major reason behind the U21s (especially) lack of success: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/33265323
Stuart Pearce and Gareth Southgate both have poor track records as club managers so why would we let them air their "interesting" ideas on the international stage at any level? Completely out of their depth.
Yes the best players should be available and made to understand that if they don't they would not play foe England at any level
However the England national team doesn't have that problem and are if honest average and worst proper shit
Venables had he stayed with the team after 96 I believe we would have reached the final in 98 and who knows from there
Hoddle , should have stayed on as I think he was on to changing the way English players think and played
Keegan do me a favour come on hardly a good choice
Sven nice guy like parky but not able for the job and this was discussed by the fa quite early in his stewardship according to Adrian Bevington
McClaren wtf wasn't even In consideration and was a result that it was felt the right man wasn't available at that time 4th choice on list again according to Bevington
Capello backwards step again
Roy hodgson there's something about him that I want to succeed but ultimately again I doubt he was the first name on the list
So far all I can see is shit mgmt appointments and not players who can't attend or won't
And the same goes for the levels below them
I witnessed some of the best football and coaching sessions under Noel Blake
The drop in standard for passages of play when players go from club level to England is clearly visible. Club level they may play with better players, but the input from coaches with different backgrounds (not just through the FA system) must have a greater positive impact. We look very one dimensional at times and it's doesnt click oftern enough. When it does (wilshere goal) we look a good side.
Forget the Manager, the knee jerk reaction is to say get rid of the Manager. I watched all the U21 matches and we were poor in everyone and deserved to go out. Our better U21s like Stirling don't want to play for them even in a major tournament. We were very poor in defence and midfield. Gibson and Moore in central defence are just not good enough. Challaboh, was a big disappointment. We needed to play at a higher tempo, we played a lot of square balls at a low tempo. Harry Kane didn't get the service he needed.
It was just typical England in a major tournament.
Forget the Manager, the knee jerk reaction is to say get rid of the Manager. I watched all the U21 matches and we were poor in everyone and deserved to go out. Our better U21s like Stirling don't want to play for them even in a major tournament. We were very poor in defence and midfield. Gibson and Moore in central defence are just not good enough. Challaboh, was a big disappointment. We needed to play at a higher tempo, we played a lot of square balls at a low tempo. Harry Kane didn't get the service he needed.
It was just typical England in a major tournament.
But the manager has to take some responsibility. His team selection for a start. Why is Chalobah even playing? He hasn't had a decent loan spell since Watford...2 years ago. Then Ward-Prowse is on the bench after being a revelation at times for Southampton this season. Then you take a look at their sizes, and realise what Southgates thinking is. Power over quality. Doesn't work at international level.
Flip it on its head it aint knee jerk, it's the Mgr and all we do is externalise and find excuses for inept performance in the recruitment process and inept mgrs
I agree that the Manager has to take some responsibility. But I feel we need to dig a bit deeper and find out the real reasons why England continually fail in major competitions. Are we producing enough good English players? Is the coaching at Academy level good enough? What are we not doing that successful countries like Spain, Germany etc are doing. Are their too many Foreign players playing in our Leagues? These are the difficult questions that need answering. Changes of Managers in the past has not made us more successful, so other things must need addressing.
Well I wonder whom people would nominate asa good manager for the U -21s. But before you throw in a name, ask yourselves why would he take the job? If you were the Danish or Swedish u21 manager for example? They are in a job where their bosses (the respective FAs) think its important. So do their players and their fans. Nobody can pretend that we can claim that too…and that's what's also important.
If you want to see what a U21 player sounds like who really cares, just watch this great interview on Czech TV last night with Sweden's John Guidetti. Don't worry, its all in English, the interviewer just translate back into Czech after they have finished.
Again no correlation between good international manager and club manager.
When we got to the final in 2009, Stuart Pearce was Head coach. Joe Hart missed the final, and Germany's class stream rolled us. Peter Taylor had England playing some of our best football at U21, Was he a good club manager ? to be fair to him if your boss of Gillingham your players aren't capable of playing like an international side.
In Racing; Horses don't peak on a Monday at Lingfield, that would be Ascot or Epsom when the big prizes are won. Too many of our players weren't on it. Harry Kane Peaked about 2 months ago. Danny Ings as an example, didn't look like a player that will be at a top six club next season, more like a player who will get stick on CL because we have signed another Dud forward. Too much talk about coaches, Why do good players like Garbutt, have three average to poor games in a tournament when he has had a good season for Everton (10 games) and for U21 in the qualifying ? Why is that the England U21 Coaches fault.
Comments
No, at the end of the day they're just nowhere near as good as we make them out to be. Same as the first team. Overhyped because they're English.
But the question is why are we in fact crap? Got to be something to do with the way our football is organised, right, because if you take the Danes or Swedes many of those players are not going to go on as individuals to be as famous or well paid as Harry Kane.
But I can't go on too much because @Covered End gets mad at me for daring to post so early in his day.
However smaller countries are playing here young stars who are also already part of their senior setups. In the Czech case, Vaclav Kadlec of Sparta, who unfortunately got injured early against Germany. That was a double blow because they had wanted to call up Matej Vydra too, but bloody Watford refused. Vydra too is part of the senior squad. Serbia had the oldest squad here, because they had the U20 squad performing at the same time, they were horribly stretched, and it showed.
You know much more than me, Gary, about the individual English players available at this level, and I am sure you are right about some of the selection. But isn't there a pattern with England? A few players we get excited about, media inflates expectations, we arrive as "one of the favourites" due to the media, and fall flat on our asses. Being going on at least since the days of Sven, because 1996 was the last time an England team really performed in a big tournament
Is the answer you all are looking for
Failure as a player
Failure as a pen taker
Failure as a club Mgr
Failure as an England u21 Mgr
Jog him on
Isn't it just possible that the problem might lie beyond the latest individual scapegoat?
Pearce , Southgate, boothroyd ffs Aidy hoof ball boothroyd in charge of an England youth team
Gareth long ball Southgate in charge of u21 after he excelled in his Mgr roll where exactly
The issue is , ridiculous appointments by those responsible
And people like Gareth Southgate even applying in the first place
Gareth Southgate demonstrated an inability to take a fully fledged adults team to any level of success
He was always discussed in the mould of a long ball old fashioned style of Mgr
As was Pearce tbh, and boothroyd
Yet they are put in charge of a team that has players bought up on and trained by coaches who have changed from that
How will that be a positive in terms of coaching, education and development of England's youth
A bigger issue that has been skimmed over that probably tells you more about why the senior team fail yr after yr is that Steven gerrard when talking about St George's Park thought it was lacking a golf course
But a failure as a player?
470 Premier League games, two time League Cup Winner, FA Cup finalist, UEFA Cup Finalist, 57 England caps - including appearances at Euro 96, France 1998 and Euro 2000.
If that's failure then I reckon 99.99% of footballers end their careers as abject failures!
Players that still have a lot to prove are lauded as the key players but they haven’t done anything yet and didn’t do anything in this tournament. Thought the midfield could have benefitted from Cousins’ energy and missed Pritchard. Seems to me that the FA is a very jobs for the boys type otganisation, so the sort of progressive coaching we need is miles away.
There was some poor wayward shooting - that advertising hording to the right of the goal we were attacking in the second half must have upset our squad in some way - but we created more chances than Italy. Their keeper made a couple of very good saves, and their second goal was going wide until the deflection. Another day we win that game.
There is no doubt that the Italians looked more comfortable on the ball, so I agree with the comments on technical ability and therefore the coaching must be questioned at all levels.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/33265323
Under Southgate we failed
Aidy boothroyd being just below them means we will continue to fail ,
I await the argument that it's because the best players refuse to play are not released by clubs
He played for palace epic fail
Missed a pen infront of me in Euro 96 epic fail
Unfortunately the fact he played for palace wipes out any success
Yes the best players should be available and made to understand that if they don't they would not play foe England at any level
However the England national team doesn't have that problem and are if honest average and worst proper shit
Venables had he stayed with the team after 96 I believe we would have reached the final in 98 and who knows from there
Hoddle , should have stayed on as I think he was on to changing the way English players think and played
Keegan do me a favour come on hardly a good choice
Sven nice guy like parky but not able for the job and this was discussed by the fa quite early in his stewardship according to Adrian Bevington
McClaren wtf wasn't even In consideration and was a result that it was felt the right man wasn't available at that time 4th choice on list again according to Bevington
Capello backwards step again
Roy hodgson there's something about him that I want to succeed but ultimately again I doubt he was the first name on the list
So far all I can see is shit mgmt appointments and not players who can't attend or won't
And the same goes for the levels below them
I witnessed some of the best football and coaching sessions under Noel Blake
I'd have given him the u21 job
We were very poor in defence and midfield. Gibson and Moore in central defence are just not good enough. Challaboh, was a big disappointment. We needed to play at a higher tempo, we played a lot of square balls at a low tempo. Harry Kane didn't get the service he needed.
It was just typical England in a major tournament.
Flip it on its head it aint knee jerk, it's the Mgr and all we do is externalise and find excuses for inept performance in the recruitment process and inept mgrs
Are we producing enough good English players? Is the coaching at Academy level good enough? What are we not doing that successful countries like Spain, Germany etc are doing. Are their too many Foreign players playing in our Leagues? These are the difficult questions that need answering. Changes of Managers in the past has not made us more successful, so other things must need addressing.
When we got to the final in 2009, Stuart Pearce was Head coach.
Joe Hart missed the final, and Germany's class stream rolled us.
Peter Taylor had England playing some of our best football at U21,
Was he a good club manager ? to be fair to him if your boss of Gillingham your players aren't capable of playing like an international side.
In Racing; Horses don't peak on a Monday at Lingfield,
that would be Ascot or Epsom when the big prizes are won.
Too many of our players weren't on it. Harry Kane Peaked about 2 months ago.
Danny Ings as an example, didn't look like a player that will be at a top six club
next season, more like a player who will get stick on CL because we have signed another Dud forward.
Too much talk about coaches, Why do good players like Garbutt, have three average to poor games in a tournament when he has had a good season for Everton (10 games) and for U21 in the qualifying ?
Why is that the England U21 Coaches fault.