23 Russian diplomats being expelled. In your face, Pootin.
I'm sure there was a ploy on yes Prime Minister where Hacker failed, and filed hard, over some Russian diplomacy event, and they were left with the only option being expelling Russia diplomants.
I'm no fan of May but I have to say I think her response has been pretty good, so far she has;
- built international consensus for the condemnation of Russia over this incident, not easy given the UKs current position in the world
- refused to play Russia's games by giving them a strict deadline to provide answers and moving swiftly to consequences when they, inevitably, missed it
- convened the UN Security Council to brief them on the situation
- reported the incident to the chemical weapons watchdog
- given 23 Russian "diplomats" a week to leave the country
- terminated formal UK representation at the World Cup
- proposed the freezing of Russia's assets in the U.K.
- made it harder for Putins oligarch mates to come to the UK by increasing checks and customs requirements on private jets coming into our country
What more would you, realistically, have her do?
As I say, no fan of May, but compared to Corbyn - whose first question to PM after her speech today was "have we cooperated with Russia's request to share a sample of the poison so they can analyse it?" - she is actually showing leadership, which is most unexpected.
Stable door bolted after. Rearrange as you see fit.
Corbyn came across very badly with his response. Labour back benchers obviously very embarrassed by his comments and showed their support for the PM's statement.
JC keeping his powder dry expecting Tories to announce measures but not following up. Why support threats that you can't ensure are carried out.
23 expelled diplomats who are believed to be spies
Well there’s why the mush was targeted are we saying we only just found out they were spies
Surely as soon as we knew we expell
So if we have just discovered it then some one has grassed them up
And now we have a dead Russian two critically ill Russians one who was a double agent and his daughter who’s Mum and brother have died In accidents in Russia
Hello Jeremy Corbyn even you must accept that’s all a bit leaning towards putin
The problem is, it's the same Jeremy Corbyn who claims he never knew the Czech diplomat he was meeting in the 80s was a spy. He's on Planet Marx, he will never get it.
This would be the spy that got info from JC on what Thatcher had for breakfast and clothes she would wear next day? I'd cancel your Daily Mail subscription Prague.
I'm not scared of Putin, but I think he can be better manipulated with a bit of nous and understanding. When you are dealing with these sort of people - you look at what you want from them then work out how best to get it. of course fake posturing looks good, but it makes people like Putin more likely to test you. It is a case of using your head really - we can't change what Russia is.
23 Russian diplomats being expelled. In your face, Pootin.
I'm sure there was a ploy on yes Prime Minister where Hacker failed, and filed hard, over some Russian diplomacy event, and they were left with the only option being expelling Russia diplomants.
I'm no fan of May but I have to say I think her response has been pretty good, so far she has;
- built international consensus for the condemnation of Russia over this incident, not easy given the UKs current position in the world
- refused to play Russia's games by giving them a strict deadline to provide answers and moving swiftly to consequences when they, inevitably, missed it
- convened the UN Security Council to brief them on the situation
- reported the incident to the chemical weapons watchdog
- given 23 Russian "diplomats" a week to leave the country
- terminated formal UK representation at the World Cup
- proposed the freezing of Russia's assets in the U.K.
- made it harder for Putins oligarch mates to come to the UK by increasing checks and customs requirements on private jets coming into our country
What more would you, realistically, have her do?
As I say, no fan of May, but compared to Corbyn - whose first question to PM after her speech today was "have we cooperated with Russia's request to share a sample of the poison so they can analyse it?" - she is actually showing leadership, which is most unexpected.
So essentially, she has blown a lot of hot air and done nothing?
Hit Russia where it hurts, their money. Putin doesn't give a damn about any diplomats/World Cup representation.
Yeah, essentially this in my view.
May's response feels about par to me, nothing more. To be fair to her, which is probably the only time I will ever write that, given Britain's stature internationally there isn't a lot she can do.
Except, as SELR rightly points out, start freezing accounts and taking their money away.
And when you look at what the US has done successfully in terms of sanctions, it has all had to do with banking, freezing accounts, and isolating them from using their money outside of Russia. Obviously the US has a lot more sway in these matters, but there must be a couple accounts kicking around that the Government can freeze. Even if it's symbolic, showing that you're willing to fuck with their money could be a big step.
No point mate, nothing we can do to influence it. As Muttley says he's a psycopath and gangster but shrewd and calculating. Everything to lose and nothing to gain by going too far.
I find it interesting (conspiracy tin hat on) that just as the news of Trump and Kim Jong Un having a love up and releasing some of the tension that has been bubbling up for the past year in the world's psyche that this now comes to the forefront.
It's almost if those in power in government and the media want to keep the masses in a perpetual state of fear, paralysis and servitude so that we are grateful to our wise protectors who know best and don't kick off too much about the trains, shit housing market, economic prospects etc.
"Nevermind that most kids now will unlikely own a house despite working 10 hour days for 50 years at least they are protecting us from the scary Russians/ISIS/North Koreans/ Soviets/Eastern European gypsies who want to eat our swans whilst pissing on Diana's memorial and shitting on the Union flag"
But are you not causing fear by making people afraid of a system designed to cause them fear!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
23 Russian diplomats being expelled. In your face, Pootin.
I'm sure there was a ploy on yes Prime Minister where Hacker failed, and filed hard, over some Russian diplomacy event, and they were left with the only option being expelling Russia diplomants.
I'm no fan of May but I have to say I think her response has been pretty good, so far she has;
- built international consensus for the condemnation of Russia over this incident, not easy given the UKs current position in the world
- refused to play Russia's games by giving them a strict deadline to provide answers and moving swiftly to consequences when they, inevitably, missed it
- convened the UN Security Council to brief them on the situation
- reported the incident to the chemical weapons watchdog
- given 23 Russian "diplomats" a week to leave the country
- terminated formal UK representation at the World Cup
- proposed the freezing of Russia's assets in the U.K.
- made it harder for Putins oligarch mates to come to the UK by increasing checks and customs requirements on private jets coming into our country
What more would you, realistically, have her do?
As I say, no fan of May, but compared to Corbyn - whose first question to PM after her speech today was "have we cooperated with Russia's request to share a sample of the poison so they can analyse it?" - she is actually showing leadership, which is most unexpected.
Stable door bolted after. Rearrange as you see fit.
Corbyn came across very badly with his response. Labour back benchers obviously very embarrassed by his comments and showed their support for the PM's statement.
JC keeping his powder dry expecting Tories to announce measures but not following up. Why support threats that you can't ensure are carried out.
23 expelled diplomats who are believed to be spies
Well there’s why the mush was targeted are we saying we only just found out they were spies
Surely as soon as we knew we expell
So if we have just discovered it then some one has grassed them up
And now we have a dead Russian two critically ill Russians one who was a double agent and his daughter who’s Mum and brother have died In accidents in Russia
Hello Jeremy Corbyn even you must accept that’s all a bit leaning towards putin
The problem is, it's the same Jeremy Corbyn who claims he never knew the Czech diplomat he was meeting in the 80s was a spy. He's on Planet Marx, he will never get it.
This would be the spy that got info from JC on what Thatcher had for breakfast and clothes she would wear next day? I'd cancel your Daily Mail subscription Prague.
23 Russian diplomats being expelled. In your face, Pootin.
I'm sure there was a ploy on yes Prime Minister where Hacker failed, and filed hard, over some Russian diplomacy event, and they were left with the only option being expelling Russia diplomants.
I'm no fan of May but I have to say I think her response has been pretty good, so far she has;
- built international consensus for the condemnation of Russia over this incident, not easy given the UKs current position in the world
- refused to play Russia's games by giving them a strict deadline to provide answers and moving swiftly to consequences when they, inevitably, missed it
- convened the UN Security Council to brief them on the situation
- reported the incident to the chemical weapons watchdog
- given 23 Russian "diplomats" a week to leave the country
- terminated formal UK representation at the World Cup
- proposed the freezing of Russia's assets in the U.K.
- made it harder for Putins oligarch mates to come to the UK by increasing checks and customs requirements on private jets coming into our country
What more would you, realistically, have her do?
As I say, no fan of May, but compared to Corbyn - whose first question to PM after her speech today was "have we cooperated with Russia's request to share a sample of the poison so they can analyse it?" - she is actually showing leadership, which is most unexpected.
Stable door bolted after. Rearrange as you see fit.
Corbyn came across very badly with his response. Labour back benchers obviously very embarrassed by his comments and showed their support for the PM's statement.
JC keeping his powder dry expecting Tories to announce measures but not following up. Why support threats that you can't ensure are carried out.
23 expelled diplomats who are believed to be spies
Well there’s why the mush was targeted are we saying we only just found out they were spies
Surely as soon as we knew we expell
So if we have just discovered it then some one has grassed them up
And now we have a dead Russian two critically ill Russians one who was a double agent and his daughter who’s Mum and brother have died In accidents in Russia
Hello Jeremy Corbyn even you must accept that’s all a bit leaning towards putin
The problem is, it's the same Jeremy Corbyn who claims he never knew the Czech diplomat he was meeting in the 80s was a spy. He's on Planet Marx, he will never get it.
This would be the spy that got info from JC on what Thatcher had for breakfast and clothes she would wear next day? I'd cancel your Daily Mail subscription Prague.
"I'm in Momentum and I'm drunk!"
Then I admire you. I may be interested in both. Can we meet to discuss way forward?
My fear with Putin is that deep down he would clearly like to recreate the buffer between Western Europe and Russia. He’s had a nibble in the Ukraine and apart from hand wringing from the West he’s gotten away with it and it’s made him stronger at home.
He is rapidly reinvigorating the military capability of Russia and was happy to flaunt his new weapons only last week.
He has a policy probing NATO countries defences with air space infringement in the UK and submersible infringements in the Baltic. He has provoked anger and concern at his military build up and manoeuvres along the border with Lithuania.
The USA is being run by an isolationist who has publicly stated that he doesn’t see NATO as good value defence for America.
The scenery is changing for the better in Europe as far as Putin is concerned. I don’t have great confidence that he’s just being mischievous.
My fear with Putin is that deep down he would clearly like to recreate the buffer between Western Europe and Russia. He’s had a nibble in the Ukraine and apart from hand wringing from the West he’s gotten away with it and it’s made him stronger at home.
He is rapidly reinvigorating the military capability of Russia and was happy to flaunt his new weapons only last week.
He has a policy probing NATO countries defences with air space infringement in the UK and submersible infringements in the Baltic. He has provoked anger and concern at his military build up and manoeuvres along the border with Lithuania.
The USA is being run by an isolationist who has publicly stated that he doesn’t see NATO as good value defence for America.
The scenery is changing for the better in Europe as far as Putin is concerned. I don’t have great confidence that he’s just being mischievous.
That sounds about right to me. Would recommend the book ‘prisoners of geography’ it has a chapter about russia’s Fear of Western Europe and their deep need for a buffer between them and it. It basically sums up Russian thinking as exactly what you have outlined.
Nikolai Glushkov has just become the 17 th Russian enemy of Putin to die in very strange circumstances (murder) and without his agents taking a selfie from the scene and holding up a picture of Valdimir Putin what more proof do you need Jeremy Corbyn. Any comments Jezza ? Are we sure Mossad aren't behind this !
Nikolai Glushkov has just become the 17 th Russian enemy of Putin to die in very strange circumstances (murder) and without his agents taking a selfie from the scene and holding up a picture of Valdimir Putin what more proof do you need Jeremy Corbyn. Any comments Jezza ? Are we sure Mossad aren't behind this !
What proof is there that Putin had anything to do with it?
It may well have been state sponsored. It may have been a Russian mafia hit. It may have been gangsters from other countries. Or it may have been someone more local - there are ten murders a week in the UK).
We can all *suspect* who might be culpable. But I expect politicians to be held to a better standard than just acting on hunches.
Let the police investigate. Bring in the security services if necessary. But be very, very sure before accusing another country's head of state of committing or ordering murder.
I would say it is very likely to be state sponsored, but we can't be 100% sure at this stage. It is not impossible that it could be this bloke fell foul of Russian Mafia and they made it look like the state. We need to be sure first. You could argue Putin is part of the Russian Mafia of course, but we basically are very happy to let some unscrupulous Russians live here and court their ill gotten money.It is not impossible these people get involved with the wrong people!
You think the Russian Mafia and the Kremlin are separate? It is as symbiotic as the IRA and Sinn Fein were back in the day.
Nikolai Glushkov has just become the 17 th Russian enemy of Putin to die in very strange circumstances (murder) and without his agents taking a selfie from the scene and holding up a picture of Valdimir Putin what more proof do you need Jeremy Corbyn. Any comments Jezza ? Are we sure Mossad aren't behind this !
What proof is there that Putin had anything to do with it?
It may well have been state sponsored. It may have been a Russian mafia hit. It may have been gangsters from other countries. Or it may have been someone more local - there are ten murders a week in the UK).
We can all *suspect* who might be culpable. But I expect politicians to be held to a better standard than just acting on hunches.
Let the police investigate. Bring in the security services if necessary. But be very, very sure before accusing another country's head of state of committing or ordering murder.
Read Putin's own quotes from a few years back and it might give you a clue.
Nikolai Glushkov has just become the 17 th Russian enemy of Putin to die in very strange circumstances (murder) and without his agents taking a selfie from the scene and holding up a picture of Valdimir Putin what more proof do you need Jeremy Corbyn. Any comments Jezza ? Are we sure Mossad aren't behind this !
What proof is there that Putin had anything to do with it?
It may well have been state sponsored. It may have been a Russian mafia hit. It may have been gangsters from other countries. Or it may have been someone more local - there are ten murders a week in the UK).
We can all *suspect* who might be culpable. But I expect politicians to be held to a better standard than just acting on hunches.
Let the police investigate. Bring in the security services if necessary. But be very, very sure before accusing another country's head of state of committing or ordering murder.
Read Putin's own quotes from a few years back and it might give you a clue.
That's quite a large request, so, unless you're prepared to be slightly more specific, I will decline!
If people really believe that this was not done on behalf of Putin, whether by direct order or just to gain favor, then you’re more delusional than Trump.
If people really believe that this was not done on behalf of Putin, whether by direct order or just to gain favor, then you’re more delusional than Trump.
If there's enough, compelling, demonstrable proof that Putin was involved (and no-one really believes he isn't) then it should be brought out. Otherwise, it's tit-for-tat name calling, where our Defence Secretary is reduced to the childish "shut up and go away" of yesterday.
UK to increase funding to Porton Down the Chemical Weapons and Research Facility.
The world is sliding backwards degree by degree.
Talking to someone who worked there, as well as providing vaccinations against anthrax, they accidentally found a cure for one form of leukemia!
Oh I don’t doubt that Porton Down is predominantly a force for good and the research they do there is for protection not aggression but my comment on the world slipping backwards reflects that we still need such establishments and rather than being able to wind them down we now need to crank them up.
UK to increase funding to Porton Down the Chemical Weapons and Research Facility.
The world is sliding backwards degree by degree.
Talking to someone who worked there, as well as providing vaccinations against anthrax, they accidentally found a cure for one form of leukemia!
Oh I don’t doubt that Porton Down is predominantly a force for good and the research they do there is for protection not aggression but my comment on the world slipping backwards reflects that we still need such establishments and rather than being able to wind them down we now need to crank them up.
Not disagreeing, just wanted to crow bar in my anecdote. Definitely seems like we are regressing, and it so obvious and avoidable but for some utter dipshits in government
If people really believe that this was not done on behalf of Putin, whether by direct order or just to gain favor, then you’re more delusional than Trump.
If there's enough, compelling, demonstrable proof that Putin was involved (and no-one really believes he isn't) then it should be brought out. Otherwise, it's tit-for-tat name calling, where our Defence Secretary is reduced to the childish "shut up and go away" of yesterday.
Yes, that is the problem. We are facing a serious issue, we need to do it our way, as you say, but we are currently led by second rate politicians (on both sides of the House) who are not up to the task. This task, and Brexit. And by extension, anything else of significance.
If people really believe that this was not done on behalf of Putin, whether by direct order or just to gain favor, then you’re more delusional than Trump.
If there's enough, compelling, demonstrable proof that Putin was involved (and no-one really believes he isn't) then it should be brought out. Otherwise, it's tit-for-tat name calling, where our Defence Secretary is reduced to the childish "shut up and go away" of yesterday.
That’s ridiculous- what do you consider “proof”. We Putin didn’t flyover and do it himself, so what do you want. Do you seriously think there’s an email or piece of paper with the instructions on.
The British government ( and others agree) that this was a nerve agent developed by the Russian govt. So either they lost control of the agent ( which they have not claimed),or they provided the means for this to happen.
The idea that the latter can happen in today’s Russia without either the explicit instructions from Putin, or by those who seek favor from Putin is ridiculous.
If people really believe that this was not done on behalf of Putin, whether by direct order or just to gain favor, then you’re more delusional than Trump.
If there's enough, compelling, demonstrable proof that Putin was involved (and no-one really believes he isn't) then it should be brought out. Otherwise, it's tit-for-tat name calling, where our Defence Secretary is reduced to the childish "shut up and go away" of yesterday.
That’s ridiculous- what do you consider “proof”. We Putin didn’t flyover and do it himself, so what do you want. Do you seriously think there’s an email or piece of paper with the instructions on.
The British government ( and others agree) that this was a nerve agent developed by the Russian govt. So either they lost control of the agent ( which they have not claimed),or they provided the means for this to happen.
The idea that the latter can happen in today’s Russia without either the explicit instructions from Putin, or by those who seek favor from Putin is ridiculous.
This bit precisely highlights the problem that Theresa May has caused for herself. On Monday she made it clear that the nerve agent had to have been manufactured in Russia and therefore was either used at the behest of the Kremlin OR it had been lost control of and was now in the hands of nefarious third parties.
But on Wednesday, she's claiming that it must have been the former, without giving any indication that there's evidence to show the latter can't be the case.
Which version are we supposed to hang our patriotic hats on, Monday's or Wednesday's?
Here's the other problem. If a British subject dies in Moscow this year and the Russian authorities declare that it was caused by a UK-manufactured nerve agent, so therefore must have been at the personal behest of the Prime Minister (but they refuse to give us a sample of the agent), are we supposed to believe them? Or would we want a stronger burden of proof to be met?
If people really believe that this was not done on behalf of Putin, whether by direct order or just to gain favor, then you’re more delusional than Trump.
If there's enough, compelling, demonstrable proof that Putin was involved (and no-one really believes he isn't) then it should be brought out. Otherwise, it's tit-for-tat name calling, where our Defence Secretary is reduced to the childish "shut up and go away" of yesterday.
That’s ridiculous- what do you consider “proof”. We Putin didn’t flyover and do it himself, so what do you want. Do you seriously think there’s an email or piece of paper with the instructions on.
The British government ( and others agree) that this was a nerve agent developed by the Russian govt. So either they lost control of the agent ( which they have not claimed),or they provided the means for this to happen.
The idea that the latter can happen in today’s Russia without either the explicit instructions from Putin, or by those who seek favor from Putin is ridiculous.
This bit precisely highlights the problem that Theresa May has caused for herself. On Monday she made it clear that the nerve agent had to have been manufactured in Russia and therefore was either used at the behest of the Kremlin OR it had been lost control of and was now in the hands of nefarious third parties.
But on Wednesday, she's claiming that it must have been the former, without giving any indication that there's evidence to show the latter can't be the case.
Which version are we supposed to hang our patriotic hats on, Monday's or Wednesday's?
Here's the other problem. If a British subject dies in Moscow this year and the Russian authorities declare that it was caused by a UK-manufactured nerve agent, so therefore must have been at the personal behest of the Prime Minister (but they refuse to give us a sample of the agent), are we supposed to believe them? Or would we want a stronger burden of proof to be met?
This is right on the money, and for reasons which are not connected with the need to be suitably firm in dealing with Putin. We are also in a propaganda war, and May's clumsiness here shows that she and her advisers don't get. The Russian media landscape has moved from the State propaganda of the USSR to industrial State directed trolling with hardly any time or space for strong disciplined reporting to flourish. As a result you've now got a senior Russian minister saying that the nerve agent used could have been manufactured here or in the US, and the vast majority of the Russian public will believe him. This would have been more difficult if she had held back in public from blaming Putin, until she had strong independent sources to quote.
Comments
May's response feels about par to me, nothing more. To be fair to her, which is probably the only time I will ever write that, given Britain's stature internationally there isn't a lot she can do.
Except, as SELR rightly points out, start freezing accounts and taking their money away.
And when you look at what the US has done successfully in terms of sanctions, it has all had to do with banking, freezing accounts, and isolating them from using their money outside of Russia. Obviously the US has a lot more sway in these matters, but there must be a couple accounts kicking around that the Government can freeze. Even if it's symbolic, showing that you're willing to fuck with their money could be a big step.
He is rapidly reinvigorating the military capability of Russia and was happy to flaunt his new weapons only last week.
He has a policy probing NATO countries defences with air space infringement in the UK and submersible infringements in the Baltic. He has provoked anger and concern at his military build up and manoeuvres along the border with Lithuania.
The USA is being run by an isolationist who has publicly stated that he doesn’t see NATO as good value defence for America.
The scenery is changing for the better in Europe as far as Putin is concerned. I don’t have great confidence that he’s just being mischievous.
The world is sliding backwards degree by degree.
Any comments Jezza ? Are we sure Mossad aren't behind this !
It may well have been state sponsored. It may have been a Russian mafia hit. It may have been gangsters from other countries. Or it may have been someone more local - there are ten murders a week in the UK).
We can all *suspect* who might be culpable. But I expect politicians to be held to a better standard than just acting on hunches.
Let the police investigate. Bring in the security services if necessary. But be very, very sure before accusing another country's head of state of committing or ordering murder.
It is as symbiotic as the IRA and Sinn Fein were back in the day.
The British government ( and others agree) that this was a nerve agent developed by the Russian govt. So either they lost control of the agent ( which they have not claimed),or they provided the means for this to happen.
The idea that the latter can happen in today’s Russia without either the explicit instructions from Putin, or by those who seek favor from Putin is ridiculous.
But on Wednesday, she's claiming that it must have been the former, without giving any indication that there's evidence to show the latter can't be the case.
Which version are we supposed to hang our patriotic hats on, Monday's or Wednesday's?
Here's the other problem. If a British subject dies in Moscow this year and the Russian authorities declare that it was caused by a UK-manufactured nerve agent, so therefore must have been at the personal behest of the Prime Minister (but they refuse to give us a sample of the agent), are we supposed to believe them? Or would we want a stronger burden of proof to be met?
Should have just followed my parents' wishes and become a nice Jewish doctor.