Just heard Misha Glenny, a brave and experienced journo, who also wrote McMafia, on this one. He's urging caution before drawing the "obvious" conclusion. He says that given Skripal was pardoned as part of a spy swap, he would expect him to be left alone. It's a global approach to such swaps -honour among thieves, as he put it. It is not obvious to him why, now, Putin would want to break this long standing convention. He feels it likely that Skripal has been involved in 'something', for it to come to this, but that we should keep an open mind about what he has been up to, and whom he has pissed off.
He was on C4 News and as you say very measured in what he said. I don’t think he seriously doubts Putin involvement in some form or other though.
This sort of incident is why I was pleased the BBC ran with McMafia. We need to be much aware of Russian goings on in the U.K. BBC journalists were also saying that various British Governments have tried to put pressure on them not to highlight Russian stories in recent years.
It looks like Putin, but if somebody else wanted him bumped off, this is a good way to do it. Probably best to try to work out what happened before we accuse.
Nerve agent, they have announced. Tends to indicate a State, and the worry is how did it get in to the country, and is there any more.
The complete disregard for collateral damage in this case and that of Litvinenko is a contemptible mark of whoever is responsible.
Strange that it wasnt far from our government labs!
Somw pesticides can work in a similar fashion to nerve agents, so may not be a state. Although given the victim involved, a state sponsored murder isnt beyond the realms of reality!
Have they said how it was administered yet. Absorbed, inhaled, digested etc.
Nope. Police added virtually no new info in latest press conf. Police officer now seriously ill too.
Sorry to hear that.. Wonder if he tried to give kiss of life etc... Some of these poisons and gases render the victim unconscious whilst attacking their vital organs, if this happened he could of digested... Etc.
Russian's play by different rules. They never pardon anyone who breaks their code of conduct. They used the quid pro quo to get their agents out and then strike at the dissidents. They allways have and allways will. You can make money in the new Russia but Putin must have his cut. You don't agree with Putin; you are history.
Want to go back really quick and clarify a couple things: 1) When I talk a out former Obama staffers' regret over Syria, I've never interpreted it as having anything to do with Russia. Obviously everyone will feel differently, but to me it felt like it was a spectrum of "it's awful that genocide happened on our watch" to "we could have done more." 2) When I said I don't think Russia cares about what they do in other countries, I meant that in terms of they don't care about the damage they do inside other countries, ie Syria, Ukraine, Yemen, etc. I didn't mean that Russia does not care what other countries do to them (Russia), as the fallout from the Ukraine Sanctions, including starting the US election meddling campaign, shows that clearly Russia does care..
A commentator on the radio pointed out that it is not necessarily personal to Skripal but simply a chilling message that 'If you betray, you are never safe - we can and will get you, if we want to, wherever you are.'
Am sure ‘we’ bump people off around the world too, except we make it look like a car accident or heart attack. The difference is the Russians don’t care who knows they did it which is why they go for these grandiose poisoning schemes as these instal a lot more fear.
Am sure ‘we’ bump people off around the world too, except we make it look like a car accident or heart attack. The difference is the Russians don’t care who knows they did it which is why they go for these grandiose poisoning schemes as these instal a lot more fear.
We just have the decency to use drones as polite society dictates.
Am sure ‘we’ bump people off around the world too, except we make it look like a car accident or heart attack. The difference is the Russians don’t care who knows they did it which is why they go for these grandiose poisoning schemes as these instal a lot more fear.
We just have the decency to use drones as polite society dictates.
Some news outlets are suggesting Prince William will boycott the World Cup. Putin must be shaking in his boots at such damning and robust response.
God give me strength. I'd have more respect for our lot if they simply held up their hands and admitted `there is fuck all we can do about it cos they've got us by the balls financially' rather than these predictable, piss weak, insulting attempts at obviously fake outrage.
There are still two big "buts" to the assumption that it was directly Putin-sanctioned:
1. Why now, a few months before the World Cup starts?
2. It breaks the spy-swap code, which is a tacit understanding that you leave them alone once they are swapped. The problem with that is that other countries will be more reluctant to do these deals in the future. There has to be a very big reason to risk that.
I think that's basically Misha Glenny's position, and I will stick with that for now, rather than Edward Lucas, who is more traditional in the way he sees Russia (but still someone to listen to).
There are still two big "buts" to the assumption that it was directly Putin-sanctioned:
1. Why now, a few months before the World Cup starts?
2. It breaks the spy-swap code, which is a tacit understanding that you leave them alone once they are swapped. The problem with that is that other countries will be more reluctant to do these deals in the future. There has to be a very big reason to risk that.
I think that's basically Misha Glenny's position, and I will stick with that for now, rather than Edward Lucas, who is more traditional in the way he sees Russia (but still someone to listen to).
BBC2 doing a Putin ‘special’ on Friday at 9pm. Should be interesting. Good coverage of latest on the ‘poisoning’ on Newsnight again last night.
Am sure ‘we’ bump people off around the world too, except we make it look like a car accident or heart attack. The difference is the Russians don’t care who knows they did it which is why they go for these grandiose poisoning schemes as these instal a lot more fear.
We just have the decency to use drones as polite society dictates.
And white Fiats....
Careful @addickted - the murder of The People's Princess is not a joking matter.
Why do dissidents come to England where Russia has carte blanche to get away with murder ? Litvinenko, Berezovsky, and Perephilichnyy plus at least 10 other Russian signature deaths. In a coffee shop, your own bathroom, out jogging, there is no escape from the FSB set up in 1995 when Putin was top man.
Am sure ‘we’ bump people off around the world too, except we make it look like a car accident or heart attack. The difference is the Russians don’t care who knows they did it which is why they go for these grandiose poisoning schemes as these instal a lot more fear.
We just have the decency to use drones as polite society dictates.
And white Fiats....
Careful @addickted - the murder of The People's Princess is not a joking matter.
Yep. Best stay well clear of Stonehenge if I were you.
Why do dissidents come to England where Russia has carte blanche to get away with murder ? Litvinenko, Berezovsky, and Perephilichnyy plus at least 10 other Russian signature deaths. In a coffee shop, your own bathroom, out jogging, there is no escape from the FSB set up in 1995 when Putin was top man.
Good question. Doubtless part of the answer was the glamour that attracts all the other Russians to choose London rather than, say Zurich. But I guess they all assumed that the British State would protect them better than it has. In the case of Litvinenko and Skripal they were entitled to expect that, and this country has let them down. Berezovsky was a somewhat different matter, even if we should not put up with Russians bumping anyone off on our territory since, as we can see, they don't give a shit about collateral damage.
Why do dissidents come to England where Russia has carte blanche to get away with murder ? Litvinenko, Berezovsky, and Perephilichnyy plus at least 10 other Russian signature deaths. In a coffee shop, your own bathroom, out jogging, there is no escape from the FSB set up in 1995 when Putin was top man.
Good question. Doubtless part of the answer was the glamour that attracts all the other Russians to choose London rather than, say Zurich. But I guess they all assumed that the British State would protect them better than it has. In the case of Litvinenko and Skripal they were entitled to expect that, and this country has let them down. Berezovsky was a somewhat different matter, even if we should not put up with Russians bumping anyone off on our territory since, as we can see, they don't give a shit about collateral damage.
Certainly agree re: the British state needing to protect them better. It must be frustrating/infuriating to see this kind of thing happen on your soil. With the US Election meddling, I am both well, well aware of the US's history of meddling in Governments of other countries, as well as not a big believer in our institutions (pre-dating Trump and this whole thing), and yet it's still infuriating, and also somewhat violating, to know something like that can happen to us.
On the other hand, is there somewhere in the world where the Russians felt they couldn't get to and murder someone they wanted killed? I can't think of anywhere off the top of my head. Maybe they'd have a more difficult time of it in the US but I feel like that would just be a matter of degrees.
Why do dissidents come to England where Russia has carte blanche to get away with murder ? Litvinenko, Berezovsky, and Perephilichnyy plus at least 10 other Russian signature deaths. In a coffee shop, your own bathroom, out jogging, there is no escape from the FSB set up in 1995 when Putin was top man.
Good question. Doubtless part of the answer was the glamour that attracts all the other Russians to choose London rather than, say Zurich. But I guess they all assumed that the British State would protect them better than it has. In the case of Litvinenko and Skripal they were entitled to expect that, and this country has let them down. Berezovsky was a somewhat different matter, even if we should not put up with Russians bumping anyone off on our territory since, as we can see, they don't give a shit about collateral damage.
The Russians can act with impunity as they see how effete our security services and for that matter society in general has become. If we took a leaf out of the KGB playbook from the 1980's (Google the Russian response to the Katkov kidnap and murder) these attacks would stop pretty quickly. It's just a question of targeting the right people.
He knew the risks when he was a traitor to his country.
Even if not state sponsored he would have made plenty of enemies.
That is no excuse whatsoever to tolerate this. He worked to assist the U.K., presumably with some kind of idealogical motive, and was then extracted in a spy swap, which allowed that Russian tart to become a media celebrity. He was entitled to expect that we would take his security seriously. As was the regular policeman who is now seriously ill doing his duty when those higher up did not.
There are still two big "buts" to the assumption that it was directly Putin-sanctioned:
1. Why now, a few months before the World Cup starts?
2. It breaks the spy-swap code, which is a tacit understanding that you leave them alone once they are swapped. The problem with that is that other countries will be more reluctant to do these deals in the future. There has to be a very big reason to risk that.
I think that's basically Misha Glenny's position, and I will stick with that for now, rather than Edward Lucas, who is more traditional in the way he sees Russia (but still someone to listen to).
It may well not be done under Putin's orders - there are plenty who seek to please Putin by doing what they think he might want, or other parts of the Russian mafia and KGB with their own scores to settle or secrets to protect. What is clear that Putin is responsible for allowing this state of affairs to develop in Russia whether he is directly or indirectly responsible. I am also not to sure that Putin is above sanctioning hits and then hiding behind plausible deniability.
He knew the risks when he was a traitor to his country.
Even if not state sponsored he would have made plenty of enemies.
So you think it would be ok for MI6 to go in and wipe out Anna Chapman who was a British citizen? Skripal served a number of years in a Russian prison and was then pardoned.
Why do dissidents come to England where Russia has carte blanche to get away with murder ? Litvinenko, Berezovsky, and Perephilichnyy plus at least 10 other Russian signature deaths. In a coffee shop, your own bathroom, out jogging, there is no escape from the FSB set up in 1995 when Putin was top man.
I think you will find that was just another name change - the organisation as functioned, without any concern for normal morality, since 1917 and even the Tsars had their own version before that.
Why do dissidents come to England where Russia has carte blanche to get away with murder ? Litvinenko, Berezovsky, and Perephilichnyy plus at least 10 other Russian signature deaths. In a coffee shop, your own bathroom, out jogging, there is no escape from the FSB set up in 1995 when Putin was top man.
They come because they feel marginally safer. To understand Putin someone said the best guide was the works of Mario Puzo.
They had an expert on TV this lunch time comparing the nerve agent to that which Saddam used to kill hundreds of Iraq's Kurdish population in 1988. Funny, I thought the accepted truth these days is that Saddam's possession and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction was a figment of Tony Blair's imagination.
Comments
This sort of incident is why I was pleased the BBC ran with McMafia. We need to be much aware of Russian goings on in the U.K. BBC journalists were also saying that various British Governments have tried to put pressure on them not to highlight Russian stories in recent years.
The complete disregard for collateral damage in this case and that of Litvinenko is a contemptible mark of whoever is responsible.
Somw pesticides can work in a similar fashion to nerve agents, so may not be a state. Although given the victim involved, a state sponsored murder isnt beyond the realms of reality!
1) When I talk a out former Obama staffers' regret over Syria, I've never interpreted it as having anything to do with Russia. Obviously everyone will feel differently, but to me it felt like it was a spectrum of "it's awful that genocide happened on our watch" to "we could have done more."
2) When I said I don't think Russia cares about what they do in other countries, I meant that in terms of they don't care about the damage they do inside other countries, ie Syria, Ukraine, Yemen, etc. I didn't mean that Russia does not care what other countries do to them (Russia), as the fallout from the Ukraine Sanctions, including starting the US election meddling campaign, shows that clearly Russia does care..
Just tragic for the police officer, too.
God give me strength. I'd have more respect for our lot if they simply held up their hands and admitted `there is fuck all we can do about it cos they've got us by the balls financially' rather than these predictable, piss weak, insulting attempts at obviously fake outrage.
1. Why now, a few months before the World Cup starts?
2. It breaks the spy-swap code, which is a tacit understanding that you leave them alone once they are swapped. The problem with that is that other countries will be more reluctant to do these deals in the future. There has to be a very big reason to risk that.
I think that's basically Misha Glenny's position, and I will stick with that for now, rather than Edward Lucas, who is more traditional in the way he sees Russia (but still someone to listen to).
On the other hand, is there somewhere in the world where the Russians felt they couldn't get to and murder someone they wanted killed? I can't think of anywhere off the top of my head. Maybe they'd have a more difficult time of it in the US but I feel like that would just be a matter of degrees.
Even if not state sponsored he would have made plenty of enemies.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/03/23/here-are-ten-critics-of-vladimir-putin-who-died-violently-or-in-suspicious-ways/?utm_term=.9f01ee0d20cf