Of course they don’t give a shit. They marched into the Crimea and did what they liked in Syria while Europe and Obama sat back and watched, so I doubt they’re that bothered about Salisbury plod on their tails.
This with bells on.
Yeah but I’m looking forward to Donald sorting it all out.......
If Donald had been the White House incumbent when the 2 examples I have had happened, this forum would have gone berserk. As it was Messiah Barack, nothing was mentioned.
What would you have proposed he do?
Keep in mind there is no appetite in this country for a proxy war with Russia over the sovereignty of a part of the Ukraine.
Of course they don’t give a shit. They marched into the Crimea and did what they liked in Syria while Europe and Obama sat back and watched, so I doubt they’re that bothered about Salisbury plod on their tails.
This with bells on.
Yeah but I’m looking forward to Donald sorting it all out.......
If Donald had been the White House incumbent when the 2 examples I have had happened, this forum would have gone berserk. As it was Messiah Barack, nothing was mentioned.
What would you have proposed he do?
Keep in mind there is no appetite in this country for a proxy war with Russia over the sovereignty of a part of the Ukraine.
Of course they don’t give a shit. They marched into the Crimea and did what they liked in Syria while Europe and Obama sat back and watched, so I doubt they’re that bothered about Salisbury plod on their tails.
This with bells on.
Yeah but I’m looking forward to Donald sorting it all out.......
If Donald had been the White House incumbent when the 2 examples I have had happened, this forum would have gone berserk. As it was Messiah Barack, nothing was mentioned.
What would you have proposed he do?
Keep in mind there is no appetite in this country for a proxy war with Russia over the sovereignty of a part of the Ukraine.
And Syria ?....
Is a country?
I would have lol’d that. If it was funny. Yes it’s a country which the Russians did what they liked in, as I stated above. It’s the part of my post you chose to ignore.
Of course they don’t give a shit. They marched into the Crimea and did what they liked in Syria while Europe and Obama sat back and watched, so I doubt they’re that bothered about Salisbury plod on their tails.
This with bells on.
Yeah but I’m looking forward to Donald sorting it all out.......
If Donald had been the White House incumbent when the 2 examples I have had happened, this forum would have gone berserk. As it was Messiah Barack, nothing was mentioned.
What would you have proposed he do?
Keep in mind there is no appetite in this country for a proxy war with Russia over the sovereignty of a part of the Ukraine.
And Syria ?....
Is a country?
I would have lol’d that. If it was funny. Yes it’s a country which the Russians did what they liked in, as I stated above. It’s the part of my post you chose to ignore.
Oh, sick middle school burn!
Explain to me what you would have liked to have seen done. I'm not going to waste my time with someone just looking to say "This was bad because Obama did it."
Of course they don’t give a shit. They marched into the Crimea and did what they liked in Syria while Europe and Obama sat back and watched, so I doubt they’re that bothered about Salisbury plod on their tails.
This with bells on.
Yeah but I’m looking forward to Donald sorting it all out.......
If Donald had been the White House incumbent when the 2 examples I have had happened, this forum would have gone berserk. As it was Messiah Barack, nothing was mentioned.
What would you have proposed he do?
Keep in mind there is no appetite in this country for a proxy war with Russia over the sovereignty of a part of the Ukraine.
And Syria ?....
Is a country?
I would have lol’d that. If it was funny. Yes it’s a country which the Russians did what they liked in, as I stated above. It’s the part of my post you chose to ignore.
Oh, sick middle school burn!
Explain to me what you would have liked to have seen done. I'm not going to waste my time with someone just looking to say "This was bad because Obama did it."
But rich seeing as you’re the biggest time waster on here. Respond to a post, receive a response back, make a dim “joke”, is your standard style.
Of course they don’t give a shit. They marched into the Crimea and did what they liked in Syria while Europe and Obama sat back and watched, so I doubt they’re that bothered about Salisbury plod on their tails.
This with bells on.
Yeah but I’m looking forward to Donald sorting it all out.......
If Donald had been the White House incumbent when the 2 examples I have had happened, this forum would have gone berserk. As it was Messiah Barack, nothing was mentioned.
What would you have proposed he do?
Keep in mind there is no appetite in this country for a proxy war with Russia over the sovereignty of a part of the Ukraine.
And Syria ?....
Is a country?
I would have lol’d that. If it was funny. Yes it’s a country which the Russians did what they liked in, as I stated above. It’s the part of my post you chose to ignore.
Oh, sick middle school burn!
Explain to me what you would have liked to have seen done. I'm not going to waste my time with someone just looking to say "This was bad because Obama did it."
But rich seeing as you’re the biggest time waster on here. Respond to a post, receive a response back, make a dim “joke”, is your standard style.
Of course they don’t give a shit. They marched into the Crimea and did what they liked in Syria while Europe and Obama sat back and watched, so I doubt they’re that bothered about Salisbury plod on their tails.
This with bells on.
Yeah but I’m looking forward to Donald sorting it all out.......
If Donald had been the White House incumbent when the 2 examples I have had happened, this forum would have gone berserk. As it was Messiah Barack, nothing was mentioned.
What would you have proposed he do?
Keep in mind there is no appetite in this country for a proxy war with Russia over the sovereignty of a part of the Ukraine.
And Syria ?....
Is a country?
I would have lol’d that. If it was funny. Yes it’s a country which the Russians did what they liked in, as I stated above. It’s the part of my post you chose to ignore.
Oh, sick middle school burn!
Explain to me what you would have liked to have seen done. I'm not going to waste my time with someone just looking to say "This was bad because Obama did it."
But rich seeing as you’re the biggest time waster on here. Respond to a post, receive a response back, make a dim “joke”, is your standard style.
Of course they don’t give a shit. They marched into the Crimea and did what they liked in Syria while Europe and Obama sat back and watched, so I doubt they’re that bothered about Salisbury plod on their tails.
This with bells on.
Yeah but I’m looking forward to Donald sorting it all out.......
If Donald had been the White House incumbent when the 2 examples I have had happened, this forum would have gone berserk. As it was Messiah Barack, nothing was mentioned.
What would you have proposed he do?
Keep in mind there is no appetite in this country for a proxy war with Russia over the sovereignty of a part of the Ukraine.
And Syria ?....
Is a country?
I would have lol’d that. If it was funny. Yes it’s a country which the Russians did what they liked in, as I stated above. It’s the part of my post you chose to ignore.
You, you know the US and Russia had a joint agreement to attack ISIS in Syria from 2014, right?
Of course they don’t give a shit. They marched into the Crimea and did what they liked in Syria while Europe and Obama sat back and watched, so I doubt they’re that bothered about Salisbury plod on their tails.
This with bells on.
Yeah but I’m looking forward to Donald sorting it all out.......
If Donald had been the White House incumbent when the 2 examples I have had happened, this forum would have gone berserk. As it was Messiah Barack, nothing was mentioned.
What would you have proposed he do?
Keep in mind there is no appetite in this country for a proxy war with Russia over the sovereignty of a part of the Ukraine.
And Syria ?....
Is a country?
I would have lol’d that. If it was funny. Yes it’s a country which the Russians did what they liked in, as I stated above. It’s the part of my post you chose to ignore.
You, you know the US and Russia had a joint agreement to attack ISIS in Syria from 2014, right?
Of course they don’t give a shit. They marched into the Crimea and did what they liked in Syria while Europe and Obama sat back and watched, so I doubt they’re that bothered about Salisbury plod on their tails.
This with bells on.
Yeah but I’m looking forward to Donald sorting it all out.......
If Donald had been the White House incumbent when the 2 examples I have had happened, this forum would have gone berserk. As it was Messiah Barack, nothing was mentioned.
What would you have proposed he do?
Keep in mind there is no appetite in this country for a proxy war with Russia over the sovereignty of a part of the Ukraine.
And Syria ?....
Is a country?
I would have lol’d that. If it was funny. Yes it’s a country which the Russians did what they liked in, as I stated above. It’s the part of my post you chose to ignore.
You, you know the US and Russia had a joint agreement to attack ISIS in Syria from 2014, right?
Of course they don’t give a shit. They marched into the Crimea and did what they liked in Syria while Europe and Obama sat back and watched, so I doubt they’re that bothered about Salisbury plod on their tails.
This with bells on.
Yeah but I’m looking forward to Donald sorting it all out.......
If Donald had been the White House incumbent when the 2 examples I have had happened, this forum would have gone berserk. As it was Messiah Barack, nothing was mentioned.
What would you have proposed he do?
Keep in mind there is no appetite in this country for a proxy war with Russia over the sovereignty of a part of the Ukraine.
And Syria ?....
Is a country?
I would have lol’d that. If it was funny. Yes it’s a country which the Russians did what they liked in, as I stated above. It’s the part of my post you chose to ignore.
You, you know the US and Russia had a joint agreement to attack ISIS in Syria from 2014, right?
I genuinely have no idea what point you're trying to make, other than "Obama was bad! Look at all the things he didn't do!"
That wasn’t my point. For the umpteenth time, I responded to the initial question. My point was that if the Russians didn’t give a shit about crimea, Syria or Litvinenko in London, why would they worry about Salisbury. I mentioned Obama and Europe doing nothing. If the West continue to do nothing, where will it end ? Ironic that I’m accused of mainly attacking Obama for everything when most on here do the exact same with Trump.
Of course they don’t give a shit. They marched into the Crimea and did what they liked in Syria while Europe and Obama sat back and watched, so I doubt they’re that bothered about Salisbury plod on their tails.
This with bells on.
Yeah but I’m looking forward to Donald sorting it all out.......
If Donald had been the White House incumbent when the 2 examples I have had happened, this forum would have gone berserk. As it was Messiah Barack, nothing was mentioned.
What would you have proposed he do?
Keep in mind there is no appetite in this country for a proxy war with Russia over the sovereignty of a part of the Ukraine.
And Syria ?....
Is a country?
I would have lol’d that. If it was funny. Yes it’s a country which the Russians did what they liked in, as I stated above. It’s the part of my post you chose to ignore.
You, you know the US and Russia had a joint agreement to attack ISIS in Syria from 2014, right?
I genuinely have no idea what point you're trying to make, other than "Obama was bad! Look at all the things he didn't do!"
That wasn’t my point. For the umpteenth time, I responded to the initial question. My point was that if the Russians didn’t give a shit about crimea, Syria or Litvinenko in London, why would they worry about Salisbury. I mentioned Obama and Europe doing nothing. If the West continue to do nothing, where will it end ? Ironic that I’m accused of mainly attacking Obama for everything when most on here do the exact same with Trump.
So Obama didn't do nothing regarding Crimea. He slapped on very painful sanctions against Russia that, as I said earlier, have been very effective and really fucked them off.
When you listen to former Obama staffers speak, one thing they say pretty much to a man and woman is their regrets about Syria. And I get that.
But the fact of the matter is this: there was very little, if anything, that could have been done that would not have led to larger scale bloodshed. Arm the Rebels (TM John McCain circa literally every conflict)? Well, if they had done that in 2011/12, the Free Syria Rebels (or whatever they were called at the time) were in a very uncomfortable marriage of convenience with this Al-Qaeda splinter group called IS. It was a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend," as was later the case with the US and Russia bombing said group.
There was no way that I was aware of that you could arm the free Syria rebels without running the risk (if not the probability) that those arms would fall into the hands of IS. The US and NATO allies tried going to the UN Security Council, Russia vetoed. So as far as I'm concerned that's a non-starter.
Obama's red line comment was stupid.
Now, there are people much smarter than me who think that is like 2012/13 ish, there was a point where Assad was weak enough where we could have overthrown him because the "Rebels" (including IS) had him on his heels. But there were two major problems with that: 1) Russia and Iran and the prospect of a proxy war 2) Power vacuums, see also: Iraq, Afghanistan.
But you have to understand we had just "finished" or were finishing fighting two wars in which we lost thousands of people (and killed millions) and spent trillions of dollars for what is largely deemed a useless outcome. There is no appetite here for further prolonged ground forces engagements in middle eastern countries.
So this notion that somehow we needed to stop the spread of Russian and Iranian influence in the middle east, which is put forward by hawks here, how on earth are we going to do that without further prolonged armed conflicts in the region? I'm curious to hear what Prague thinks about this, and I know the whole "Russians respond to strength" thing, but I can't help but feel a proxy war is EXACTLY what Putin would want to help him deflect from the worsening conditions at home.
Lastly, this is just a me thing, but I'm a big believer that you should only go into arm conflicts if you know that you can make things better, or at the *very least* and only in certain circumstances, make things less worse. I don't see any clear inflection point in the conflict where attacking the Russian and Iranian backed Assad would have fit that criteria. Alternatively, attacking ISIS did seem to have that effect, and thus lead to a brief "the enemy of my enemy is my frenemy."
And I say this fully understanding that what when on in Syria at times was equivalent to a genocide. I remember reading the HRW report crica 2011 or 2012 that talked about the shallow mass graves, the chemical attacks, bombing neighborhood, the siege of Homs. It was absolutely awful. But I think here in the States we're guilty of thinking that some bombers and cruise missiles will fix everything. And if the 21st century has taught us anything to this point, it should be that this is simply not the case.
Now, I'm really sorry your feelings are hurt about Trump, but if you're worried about the west doing nothing about Russia, I've got some bad news.
Spending on measures to prevent Russian Hacking in this year's midterm: $0/$120million
This notion that people criticize Trump because he's Trump is a ridiculous strawman. Most of the criticisms that I have seen on here have been very poignant and specific.
Regrets about Syria ? So I’m right then. I don’t see anywhere, that I’ve mentioned going to war but I do think the West needs to stand up to Putin a bit more. I agree about the red line comment being stupid. I’m not hurt about Trump - seems you’re a tad more upset about my Obama comments. I couldn’t give a monkey’s about either man.
Back to my first post on here and to the thread itself. Do you agree that the Russians don’t give a shit what they do in other countries ?
Regrets about Syria ? So I’m right then. I don’t see anywhere, that I’ve mentioned going to war but I do think the West needs to stand up to Putin a bit more. I agree about the red line comment being stupid. I’m not hurt about Trump - seems you’re a tad more upset about my Obama comments. I couldn’t give a monkey’s about either man.
Back to my first post on here and to the thread itself. Do you agree that the Russians don’t give a shit what they do in other countries ?
So if you weren't proposing war what were you proposing? How do you intend to "stand up to Putin?" Especially when it came to Syria? I feel like you've made the most milquetoast statements then patted yourself on the back for them. If it's just blanket statements and criticisms then it ain't worth much.
Yes certainly agree that they don't care what they do in other countries.
Regrets about Syria ? So I’m right then. I don’t see anywhere, that I’ve mentioned going to war but I do think the West needs to stand up to Putin a bit more. I agree about the red line comment being stupid. I’m not hurt about Trump - seems you’re a tad more upset about my Obama comments. I couldn’t give a monkey’s about either man.
Back to my first post on here and to the thread itself. Do you agree that the Russians don’t give a shit what they do in other countries ?
So if you weren't proposing war what were you proposing? How do you intend to "stand up to Putin?" Especially when it came to Syria?
Yes certainly agree that they don't care what they do in other countries.
So why not come on here and just agree with my post then ?!
I would recommend this article on the latest event from Mark Galeotti, a respected expert on modern Russia, and how the---- to deal with it. Towards the end he sets out practical ideas on how best to respond to Russia. I think it will show you two guys that you are not as far apart on this as you both think.
Simple question, but has not MI6 killed enemies of this country abroad? I know James Bond does all the time, but the real MI6 denies it. But haven't ex operatives come out and said it has happened. Not justifying anything just interesting to know if anybody does?
As Galeotti quite rightly refers to, many of the old KGB tactics still remain in use by the SVR and FSB. We saw that with the state sponsored killing of Litvinenko, the architecht of which (Lugovoi) is now not only a member of Parliament but has been given a medal honouring 'services to the motherland'.
Among 14 others that Buzzfeed identified, Gareth Williams in particular stands out in terms of the media attention- and in the implausability of it being an accident.
The West can certainly be accused of taking far too gentle a line on Russian aggression since Putin took power at the turn of the millenia, but the sanctions, the Magnitsky Act and its UK equivalent the Criminal Finances Act have been effective measures in recent years.
If it turns out that Skripal was a state sponsored killing, then without a doubt these measures need to be escalated, and the best way to do this in my view is to continue to hit those oligarchs around the Putin regime where they care most- their finances. Make it harder for them to acquire and sell property in the UK, place greater sanctions on their finances.
Something has to be done that goes further than mere gesture this time.
I would recommend this article on the latest event from Mark Galeotti, a respected expert on modern Russia, and how the---- to deal with it. Towards the end he sets out practical ideas on how best to respond to Russia. I think it will show you two guys that you are not as far apart on this as you both think.
Considering he agrees with my main point, I’d say you are right.
I would recommend this article on the latest event from Mark Galeotti, a respected expert on modern Russia, and how the---- to deal with it. Towards the end he sets out practical ideas on how best to respond to Russia. I think it will show you two guys that you are not as far apart on this as you both think.
Considering he agrees with my main point, I’d say you are right.
He doesn't recommend piling into proxy wars, though.
I really wouldn't underestimate how much Putin's rich mates (and not just his mates) think its important to send their kids to Eton and have a pad in Park Lane.
As Galeotti quite rightly refers to, many of the old KGB tactics still remain in use by the SVR and FSB. We saw that with the state sponsored killing of Litvinenko, the architecht of which (Lugovoi) is now not only a member of Parliament but has been given a medal honouring 'services to the motherland'.
Among 14 others that Buzzfeed identified, Gareth Williams in particular stands out in terms of the media attention- and in the implausability of it being an accident.
The West can certainly be accused of taking far too gentle a line on Russian aggression since Putin took power at the turn of the millenia, but the sanctions, the Magnitsky Act and its UK equivalent the Criminal Finances Act have been effective measures in recent years.
If it turns out that Skripal was a state sponsored killing, then without a doubt these measures need to be escalated, and the best way to do this in my view is to continue to hit those oligarchs around the Putin regime where they care most- their finances. Make it harder for them to acquire and sell property in the UK, place greater sanctions on their finances.
Something has to be done that goes further than mere gesture this time.
A lot of great points in this. As you say the Magnitsky Act and the other sanctions have really upset them. And the killing of Skripal, along with the whole meddling in a US election would make this a really good time to tighten the screw. Except, unfortunately, you almost certainly won't get any support from the US on this matter. To what extent that matters I don't know, I suspect there's a lot more wealth (per capita or whatever) tied up in London than there is in the US. But yeah it's frustrating.
It's also worth that reality check that what Trump ran on, or at least the pretense he hid behind, the need for their help in fighting ISIS, isn't really needed anymore. Could they be helpful with North Korea? Yeah maybe but 1) I don't know how much and 2) I think it's naive to think they're going to play by the rules anyway. So this would be an excellent time, especially in the light of the Mueller indictments of 13 Russians and IRA, to really stick the boot in with Sanctions and freezing money.
But we know that won't happen because even today Trump said Russia probably meddled in our election but downplayed it by saying so did other countries. He continues to refuse to speak ill of Russia, even going out of his way not to do so in a way where it's really difficult to explain the motivations behind it.
Of course they don’t give a shit. They marched into the Crimea and did what they liked in Syria while Europe and Obama sat back and watched, so I doubt they’re that bothered about Salisbury plod on their tails.
This with bells on.
Yeah but I’m looking forward to Donald sorting it all out.......
If Donald had been the White House incumbent when the 2 examples I have had happened, this forum would have gone berserk. As it was Messiah Barack, nothing was mentioned.
What would you have proposed he do?
Keep in mind there is no appetite in this country for a proxy war with Russia over the sovereignty of a part of the Ukraine.
Yeah, I mean, what could have gone wrong?
Send in 100,000 American soldiers into the fucking Ukraine to expel the Russians who were not technically even there in the first place.
As Obama said repeatedly, the #1 rule of being President is "Don't do stupid shit" and putting US troops on the ground in either Ukraine or Syria would have made a bad situation infinitely worse.
I still can’t find where I’ve written about war. And no-one on here have picked up on the fact I wrote “Europe and Obama”. Just the American bit. Even SD admits the Obama administration regretted Syria. My point was that if Putin can march into sovereign states at will, he obviously wouldn’t give a shit about bumping off someone in a Wiltshire city. That was the question asked by a poster earlier on and that was my opinion.
Just heard Misha Glenny, a brave and experienced journo, who also wrote McMafia, on this one. He's urging caution before drawing the "obvious" conclusion. He says that given Skripal was pardoned as part of a spy swap, he would expect him to be left alone. It's a global approach to such swaps -honour among thieves, as he put it. It is not obvious to him why, now, Putin would want to break this long standing convention. He feels it likely that Skripal has been involved in 'something', for it to come to this, but that we should keep an open mind about what he has been up to, and whom he has pissed off.
Comments
Yes it’s a country which the Russians did what they liked in, as I stated above. It’s the part of my post you chose to ignore.
Explain to me what you would have liked to have seen done. I'm not going to waste my time with someone just looking to say "This was bad because Obama did it."
Respond to a post, receive a response back, make a dim “joke”, is your standard style.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_military_intervention_against_ISIL#5_September_2014
Russia has been allied with Syria for a long time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia–Syria_relations#Since_the_Syrian_Civil_War_(2011–present)
I genuinely have no idea what point you're trying to make, other than "Obama was bad! Look at all the things he didn't do!"
I mentioned Obama and Europe doing nothing. If the West continue to do nothing, where will it end ?
Ironic that I’m accused of mainly attacking Obama for everything when most on here do the exact same with Trump.
When you listen to former Obama staffers speak, one thing they say pretty much to a man and woman is their regrets about Syria. And I get that.
But the fact of the matter is this: there was very little, if anything, that could have been done that would not have led to larger scale bloodshed. Arm the Rebels (TM John McCain circa literally every conflict)? Well, if they had done that in 2011/12, the Free Syria Rebels (or whatever they were called at the time) were in a very uncomfortable marriage of convenience with this Al-Qaeda splinter group called IS. It was a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend," as was later the case with the US and Russia bombing said group.
There was no way that I was aware of that you could arm the free Syria rebels without running the risk (if not the probability) that those arms would fall into the hands of IS. The US and NATO allies tried going to the UN Security Council, Russia vetoed. So as far as I'm concerned that's a non-starter.
Obama's red line comment was stupid.
Now, there are people much smarter than me who think that is like 2012/13 ish, there was a point where Assad was weak enough where we could have overthrown him because the "Rebels" (including IS) had him on his heels. But there were two major problems with that:
1) Russia and Iran and the prospect of a proxy war
2) Power vacuums, see also: Iraq, Afghanistan.
But you have to understand we had just "finished" or were finishing fighting two wars in which we lost thousands of people (and killed millions) and spent trillions of dollars for what is largely deemed a useless outcome. There is no appetite here for further prolonged ground forces engagements in middle eastern countries.
So this notion that somehow we needed to stop the spread of Russian and Iranian influence in the middle east, which is put forward by hawks here, how on earth are we going to do that without further prolonged armed conflicts in the region? I'm curious to hear what Prague thinks about this, and I know the whole "Russians respond to strength" thing, but I can't help but feel a proxy war is EXACTLY what Putin would want to help him deflect from the worsening conditions at home.
Lastly, this is just a me thing, but I'm a big believer that you should only go into arm conflicts if you know that you can make things better, or at the *very least* and only in certain circumstances, make things less worse. I don't see any clear inflection point in the conflict where attacking the Russian and Iranian backed Assad would have fit that criteria. Alternatively, attacking ISIS did seem to have that effect, and thus lead to a brief "the enemy of my enemy is my frenemy."
And I say this fully understanding that what when on in Syria at times was equivalent to a genocide. I remember reading the HRW report crica 2011 or 2012 that talked about the shallow mass graves, the chemical attacks, bombing neighborhood, the siege of Homs. It was absolutely awful. But I think here in the States we're guilty of thinking that some bombers and cruise missiles will fix everything. And if the 21st century has taught us anything to this point, it should be that this is simply not the case.
Now, I'm really sorry your feelings are hurt about Trump, but if you're worried about the west doing nothing about Russia, I've got some bad news.
Trump on sanctions mandated by Congress: Trump administration holds off on new Russia sanctions, despite law
Spending on measures to prevent Russian Hacking in this year's midterm: $0/$120million
This notion that people criticize Trump because he's Trump is a ridiculous strawman. Most of the criticisms that I have seen on here have been very poignant and specific.
I don’t see anywhere, that I’ve mentioned going to war but I do think the West needs to stand up to Putin a bit more.
I agree about the red line comment being stupid.
I’m not hurt about Trump - seems you’re a tad more upset about my Obama comments. I couldn’t give a monkey’s about either man.
Back to my first post on here and to the thread itself. Do you agree that the Russians don’t give a shit what they do in other countries ?
Yes certainly agree that they don't care what they do in other countries.
Row in empty house syndrome.
I would recommend this article on the latest event from Mark Galeotti, a respected expert on modern Russia, and how the---- to deal with it. Towards the end he sets out practical ideas on how best to respond to Russia. I think it will show you two guys that you are not as far apart on this as you both think.
Among 14 others that Buzzfeed identified, Gareth Williams in particular stands out in terms of the media attention- and in the implausability of it being an accident.
The West can certainly be accused of taking far too gentle a line on Russian aggression since Putin took power at the turn of the millenia, but the sanctions, the Magnitsky Act and its UK equivalent the Criminal Finances Act have been effective measures in recent years.
If it turns out that Skripal was a state sponsored killing, then without a doubt these measures need to be escalated, and the best way to do this in my view is to continue to hit those oligarchs around the Putin regime where they care most- their finances. Make it harder for them to acquire and sell property in the UK, place greater sanctions on their finances.
Something has to be done that goes further than mere gesture this time.
I really wouldn't underestimate how much Putin's rich mates (and not just his mates) think its important to send their kids to Eton and have a pad in Park Lane.
It's also worth that reality check that what Trump ran on, or at least the pretense he hid behind, the need for their help in fighting ISIS, isn't really needed anymore. Could they be helpful with North Korea? Yeah maybe but 1) I don't know how much and 2) I think it's naive to think they're going to play by the rules anyway. So this would be an excellent time, especially in the light of the Mueller indictments of 13 Russians and IRA, to really stick the boot in with Sanctions and freezing money.
But we know that won't happen because even today Trump said Russia probably meddled in our election but downplayed it by saying so did other countries. He continues to refuse to speak ill of Russia, even going out of his way not to do so in a way where it's really difficult to explain the motivations behind it.
Send in 100,000 American soldiers into the fucking Ukraine to expel the Russians who were not technically even there in the first place.
As Obama said repeatedly, the #1 rule of being President is "Don't do stupid shit" and putting US troops on the ground in either Ukraine or Syria would have made a bad situation infinitely worse.
Even SD admits the Obama administration regretted Syria.
My point was that if Putin can march into sovereign states at will, he obviously wouldn’t give a shit about bumping off someone in a Wiltshire city. That was the question asked by a poster earlier on and that was my opinion.