The general social opinion and acceptance of the LGBT community has changed dramatically for the better in the past decade or so, but sport is lagging behind. I believe it is almost entirely because of the chanting and abuse they'd get from opposing fans. And the chanting won't go away either, as anything a fan can latch onto they will, whether it's someone's sexual orientation, their haircut, whether the player had consent or not, if they've recently had a parent die, most things aren't off limits it seems, and being gay most certainly won't be for the majority of fans.
People said the same about racist chanting but you hardly ever hear that now even though you can hear individual racist comments.
Attitudes change and opposition to abusive chanting has grown.
We're, as a sport, further behind on homophobia than racism IMHO. In part that is changing attitudes in society but also that having black players is the norm now. Still work to be done though.
BTW Charlton had a director on the FAs tackling homophobia group over 10 years ago. As ever, we're way ahead of the game.
I look forward to the day that people don't have to 'come out', they just carry on with their lives and if they have a partner of the same sex people don't give it a second thought.
totally agree.
(also the best username on this thread - childish snigger)
Not the least bit bothered about their sexuality or their colour, race, religion or anything else for that matter. Judged purely as a footballer and as a person But I suppose opposing fans might think differently
I agree with Saga Lout that the 8% refusing to attend is hard to believe. I would however expect that to represent (maybe even on the low side) the level of homophobic bigotry that exists in society as a whole.
My main concern, and the reason I expect most gay footballers don't come out, is the level of abuse they would receive from significant proportions of the crowd (especially opposition fans).
Exactly the same as me.
Doesn't matter which way they swing but sadly it would cause them no end of grief. It's absolutely cringeworthy.
Anyone know how well it's been received since a couple of NFL players came out last summer?
Statistically its likely that each starting XI has one gay player anyway, so it would seem that round about the same average number of people are gay as are vehemently anti-gay.
Who was it who said "Methinks thou dost protest too much..."?
How about we get all the gay men and all the homophobes in a big room and get them to hug it out?
I highly doubt that 1 in 11 professional footballers is gay. That might be the statistic for the population as a whole but being gay (and the fear about the reception from peers/coaches/supporters) would probably put a fair proportion of talented young footballers who might otherwise have made it in the game off.
But regardless of whether there is 1 in 11 or 1 in 100 there are definitely gay footballers out there in the English professional game, it will take an incredibly brave one to come out, but when they do it will be an incredibly important moment because it will be the start of it not being important anymore. It will also start to "normalise" homosexuality in football, which means we should see more gay fans feeling comfortable inside football stadia and less of the "we can see you holding hands" nonsense.
Not the least bit bothered about their sexuality or their colour, race, religion or anything else for that matter. Judged purely as a footballer and as a person But I suppose opposing fans might think differently
I don't care if a player is gay or not, I've got gay friends and I've got a sneaky feeling that Humphrey my Spaniel may fetch for the other side, love him all the same
I'm not convinced times have changed that much amongst the football fraternity since then.
Justin's obituary:
FOR individuals a little different from the crowd, professional football can be a cruelly insular world, and while sensitivity does exist in the macho environment of dressing room, practice pitch and bar, often it is well advised to keep its head down. Justin Fashanu was very different: he was gay and he admitted it, a combination with which, it seemed, many people within the English national game could not cope.
The son of a Nigerian barrister, he had been abandoned as a child, then dispatched to a Barnardo's home before being rescued, at the age of six, with his younger brother, John, by middle-class, white foster parents in Norfolk and growing up to be intelligent, articulate and a fellow of persuasive charm. Also, he happened to be an extravagantly gifted footballer. Tall, strong and blessed with delicate skills for a man of his size, he was a centre-forward who played for England Youth, then signed for Norwich City in 1978. He progressed quickly to the Canaries' senior side - then in the old First Divison, the equivalent of today's Premiership - and represented his country at under-21 level.
But the incident which catapulted Fashanu to sporting fame occurred in February 1980 when, in a televised match against Liverpool, he scored an utterly sensational goal, a curling, rising drive from far outside the penalty box. From that moment he lived his life in the public spotlight and, six months later, he became the first black player to cost pounds 1m when Brian Clough bought him for Nottingham Forest.
At the time, Fashanu was in a "straight" relationship but he had not been in Nottingham for long when his outlook was transformed, first by Christianity, then by the city's gay scene, to which he found himself drawn irresistibly. His form for Forest, then one of the leading clubs in the land, was bitterly disappointing and, when Clough, not the most tolerant of men, discovered his new signing's sexual leanings, he suspended him. Fashanu wasn't having that and turned up for training, only for his manager to have him escorted publicly from the premises by the police.
Clearly his future lay away from the City Ground and, after much heartache, in 1982 he joined Notts County, then also in the top division and managed by Howard Wilkinson. For a while at Meadow Lane his career got back on course, only for a knee wound to become poisoned, after which he was never quite as effective again.
Following a brief interlude with Brighton, and as gossip about his sexuality became common currency, Fashanu went to the United States, then Canada, where he hoped to continue his footballing life while running a gay bar. In 1989 he returned to England and after abortive attempts to rescue his professional fortunes with several clubs, and feeling sickened by the prejudice he encountered constantly, he "came out" in 1990. In fact, the decision only increased the pressure on Fashanu, who became the subject of ever more frequent and lurid publicity: concocted allegations of affairs with Conservative MPs and stories of a lasting rift with his brother John, who had himself risen to eminence in the game with Wimbledon and England.
"You have to understand," said Justin Fashanu in an interview, "that footballers are very narrow-minded people. It's the nature of the business. When you put yourself in the firing line, you are open to attack. I know I'm there to be shot down in flames."
Courageously, he refused to give up on football, doing well in a stint with Torquay United, then serving Airdrieonians and Hearts in Scotland. More recently he had been living and coaching in the US, in Maryland, where he was being hunted by police last week after being charged with sexually assaulting a teenage boy. He was found dead in a lock-up garage in Shoreditch, east London, on Saturday. He had apparently hanged himself.
Justinus Soni Fashanu, footballer: born London 19 February 1961; played for Norwich City 1978-81, Nottingham Forest 1981-82, Southampton on loan 1982, Notts County 1982-85; Brighton and Hove Albion 1985, Manchester City 1989, West Ham United 1989, Leyton Orient 1990, Torquay United 1991-93, Airdrieonians 1993, Heart of Midlothian 1993; died London 2 May 1998.
If we can excuse the pun, I think that all we want from a footballer is that he contributes to our pride in the team. As long as he puts in a shift and isn't a complete arse, I can find it in myself to admire something about almost any player.
I think we are a long way off footballers coming out. Any player who puts a foot wrong in a game, be it a bad tackle, diving etc..... will get abuse about his sexuality from some of the opposition fans. That's a given. It will take a fair few years of several brave players outing themselves and campaigns like 'kick it out' (racism) before the abuse is frowned upon sufficiently for the minority of fans to realise that their actions are actually downright wrong.
It's a real shame because society has hugely improved since the 80's when bananas were thrown at black players and it was considered 'just a bit of fun'. Today the overwhelming majority would see that as disgusting. Those black players could not hide their colour but you can hide your sexual orientation and who can blame anyone for doing so.
The thing is, if a professional comes out as gay whilst still playing football, he's open to insults not just from fans, but his own peers too.. which is even more of a deterence from professional footballers opening up about their sexualities.
I look forward to the day that people don't have to 'come out', they just carry on with their lives and if they have a partner of the same sex people don't give it a second thought.
Absolutely spot on mate, good post.
It's a travesty that this sort of stat (8% wouldn't go!) still exists and leads to an apparently newsworthy story. To anyone who fits into that 8% bracket; firstly, get out more; secondly, it's 2016 (not 1916).
Someone mentioned uneducated, council estate dwelling supporters possibly being part of the problem....but....just how many of the 8% mentioned have religious views that cloud their judgement on something that shouldn't be an issue in the 21st Century, and would stop them from attending matches?
Someone mentioned uneducated, council estate dwelling supporters possibly being part of the problem....but....just how many of the 8% mentioned have religious views that cloud their judgement on something that shouldn't be an issue in the 21st Century, and would stop them from attending matches?
Dont the majority of Religions have views against this sort of thing?
Genuine question as I try to ignore anything religious these days so dont know what faith has updated its views
Interesting that a lot of posters are commenting on the abuse that opposition fans would/might give a gay Charlton player.
I know we, as a set of supporters, might assume that we are perhaps more forward thinking and enlightened than those at many other clubs but is that truly and always the case? It's far, far better than in the past and as a club we have led the way on many occasions but we have all heard supporters make racist remarks, perhaps even chants/songs. Even within the last few years if we are honest.
It's an assumption I know but those that are happy to sing offensive songs about Kevin Lisbie or in praise of Stephen Lawrence's killers are hardly likely create a welcoming environment for a gay player of our own OR the opposition's. This might be a relatively small and hopefully declining section of our support but it's still there, even at a club like ours. Many more supporters are still prepared to right off pejorative chants about Brighton fans being homosexual as 'banter' too.
I truly believe that CAFC, of all clubs, would support and provide a positive environment for a gay player but let's not kid ourself that we wouldn't have our own 8%'ers and this would only be an issue with opposition fans.
the religion of islam doesnt recognise homosexuality at all and they eqaute to 31% of the population certain contries such as saudi arabia i think public lashings is the punishment for being gay, a lot of christians aswell do not accept it either, cant comment on other religions.
The percentage of people who are gay is unlikely to be as high as 1 in 10, that figure from all subsequent surveys seems too high.
And that's across all professions. A sweeping assumption, but I'd assume that a higher percentage of male actors and singers were gay than male sportsmen, especially those in team sports like football or rugby. It's not as if there have been significant numbers of retired footballers or rugby players in their 40s or 50s who've come out, having moved on from sport.
As to the original point, it's ridiculous that some fans wouldn't accept a gay footballer playing for their team, but after the behaviour and comments from a small minority of our fans at Gillingham, not entirely surprising...
Darren ambrose ive heard thousands singing does your boyfreind know your here even as a sell out at our place thats still about 10% of the crowd if not more joining in, admittedly not the same thing ive joined in with songs against brighton before, do i hate all gay people no do i think they shouldn't be footballers no.
Interesting that a lot of posters are commenting on the abuse that opposition fans would/might give a gay Charlton player.
I know we, as a set of supporters, might assume that we are perhaps more forward thinking and enlightened than those at many other clubs but is that truly and always the case? It's far, far better than in the past and as a club we have led the way on many occasions but we have all heard supporters make racist remarks, perhaps even chants/songs. Even within the last few years if we are honest.
It's an assumption I know but those that are happy to sing offensive songs about Kevin Lisbie or in praise of Stephen Lawrence's killers are hardly likely create a welcoming environment for a gay player of our own OR the opposition's. This might be a relatively small and hopefully declining section of our support but it's still there, even at a club like ours. Many more supporters are still prepared to right off pejorative chants about Brighton fans being homosexual as 'banter' too.
I truly believe that CAFC, of all clubs, would support and provide a positive environment for a gay player but let's not kid ourself that we wouldn't have our own 8%'ers and this would only be an issue with opposition fans.
Exactly.
Only a few days ago we had a few posters on here complaining about racist abuse from our fans at Gillingham so let's not kid ourselves that we wouldn't have fans giving homophobic abuse to a gay opposition player.
Someone mentioned uneducated, council estate dwelling supporters possibly being part of the problem....but....just how many of the 8% mentioned have religious views that cloud their judgement on something that shouldn't be an issue in the 21st Century, and would stop them from attending matches?
Point of order: he didn't say supporters, he was referring to players in a dressing room
"Imagine a room full of under educated, young men from council estates. Not exactly the most open and welcoming environment if you feel like you're going to stand out."
Although many players don't come from council estates and even if they did that wouldn't make them homophobic.
Seems not to be a problem for Females elite athletes in team sports: The England Hockey Captain Kate Richardson-Walsh and team mate Helen are married. The England football team have Casey Stoney, who has twins with her female partner. Other players in the England woman team just want the focus to be on their football abilities not their sexual Orientation.
I just have a hunch the figure in Mens football is so much lower for Gays than in everyday employment; so the handful have the right to be allowed to play football with out it being an issue.
Just like the colour of you skin it shouldn't Matter, Neither should your Sexual Preferences. If Louis Spence could score 20 plus goals a season, Welcome to CAFC. plus the Tunnel jump would be fun.
I think Football needs gay players to come out. It is a blight on our game that players do not feel comfortable doing so. I wouldn't have a problem at all if we had a team full of gay players. I am interested in their football ability.
You see I dont understand why its important
If Morgan Fox was to admit he was Gay I'd then want Chris Solly to come out confirming he's straight (Just for clarification).
he takes it up the ass etc, can see why players wouldnt want to come out as gay.
This is probably why there are surveys about this sort of thing from the chants that are sung on the terraces... Is something that will never go I believe and reckon that players shouldnt take it personally... Unless your a complete prick of a Footballer, no chant should ever be taken that way as its just designed (from my view) to put the opposition off and to stop them playing well / winning
So black players shouldn't take racist abuse personally?
Of course it is, in part, to put players off but it can also be done as an excuse to voice vile views on people who the chanters consider "less" than them.
I wouldn't be surprised if some players are out to their team mates but don't to go public so that can avoid the attention for themselves and their partner/family.
Sooner or later a gay player will come out while playing and it will be news. And then another and it will still be news, and then another and it will be smaller news and eventually, after a few years or decades, it won't be news at all.
Statistically its likely that each starting XI has one gay player anyway, so it would seem that round about the same average number of people are gay as are vehemently anti-gay.
Who was it who said "Methinks thou dost protest too much..."?
How about we get all the gay men and all the homophobes in a big room and get them to hug it out?
I highly doubt that 1 in 11 professional footballers is gay. That might be the statistic for the population as a whole but being gay (and the fear about the reception from peers/coaches/supporters) would probably put a fair proportion of talented young footballers who might otherwise have made it in the game off.
But regardless of whether there is 1 in 11 or 1 in 100 there are definitely gay footballers out there in the English professional game, it will take an incredibly brave one to come out, but when they do it will be an incredibly important moment because it will be the start of it not being important anymore. It will also start to "normalise" homosexuality in football, which means we should see more gay fans feeling comfortable inside football stadia and less of the "we can see you holding hands" nonsense.
Good post SE9addick,
You will have to take my word on this but i have seen Gay Charlton fans singing "we can see you holding hands" which tells me Gays fans are like the rest of us ? some will be offended by words and some just see it as banter. Would any of the Gay folk on CL like to explain. Or straights or Asexuals, Bisexuals or Transgender. Sorry if i have left anybody out !
The percentage of people who are gay is unlikely to be as high as 1 in 10, that figure from all subsequent surveys seems too high.
And that's across all professions. A sweeping assumption, but I'd assume that a higher percentage of male actors and singers were gay than male sportsmen, especially those in team sports like football or rugby. It's not as if there have been significant numbers of retired footballers or rugby players in their 40s or 50s who've come out, having moved on from sport.
As to the original point, it's ridiculous that some fans wouldn't accept a gay footballer playing for their team, but after the behaviour and comments from a small minority of our fans at Gillingham, not entirely surprising...
Maybe it's just me, but it seems to be higher amongst the attractive young ladies of my acquaintance.
Seems not to be a problem for Females elite athletes in team sports: The England Hockey Captain Kate Richardson-Walsh and team mate Helen are married. The England football team have Casey Stoney, who has twins with her female partner. Other players in the England woman team just want the focus to be on their football abilities not their sexual Orientation.
I'd imagine it's not a problem because thousands of people don't watch their games every week
Comments
Attitudes change and opposition to abusive chanting has grown.
We're, as a sport, further behind on homophobia than racism IMHO. In part that is changing attitudes in society but also that having black players is the norm now. Still work to be done though.
BTW Charlton had a director on the FAs tackling homophobia group over 10 years ago. As ever, we're way ahead of the game.
(also the best username on this thread - childish snigger)
But I suppose opposing fans might think differently
Doesn't matter which way they swing but sadly it would cause them no end of grief. It's absolutely cringeworthy.
Anyone know how well it's been received since a couple of NFL players came out last summer?
But regardless of whether there is 1 in 11 or 1 in 100 there are definitely gay footballers out there in the English professional game, it will take an incredibly brave one to come out, but when they do it will be an incredibly important moment because it will be the start of it not being important anymore. It will also start to "normalise" homosexuality in football, which means we should see more gay fans feeling comfortable inside football stadia and less of the "we can see you holding hands" nonsense.
Live and let live
Justin's obituary:
FOR individuals a little different from the crowd, professional football can be a cruelly insular world, and while sensitivity does exist in the macho environment of dressing room, practice pitch and bar, often it is well advised to keep its head down. Justin Fashanu was very different: he was gay and he admitted it, a combination with which, it seemed, many people within the English national game could not cope.
The son of a Nigerian barrister, he had been abandoned as a child, then dispatched to a Barnardo's home before being rescued, at the age of six, with his younger brother, John, by middle-class, white foster parents in Norfolk and growing up to be intelligent, articulate and a fellow of persuasive charm. Also, he happened to be an extravagantly gifted footballer. Tall, strong and blessed with delicate skills for a man of his size, he was a centre-forward who played for England Youth, then signed for Norwich City in 1978. He progressed quickly to the Canaries' senior side - then in the old First Divison, the equivalent of today's Premiership - and represented his country at under-21 level.
But the incident which catapulted Fashanu to sporting fame occurred in February 1980 when, in a televised match against Liverpool, he scored an utterly sensational goal, a curling, rising drive from far outside the penalty box. From that moment he lived his life in the public spotlight and, six months later, he became the first black player to cost pounds 1m when Brian Clough bought him for Nottingham Forest.
At the time, Fashanu was in a "straight" relationship but he had not been in Nottingham for long when his outlook was transformed, first by Christianity, then by the city's gay scene, to which he found himself drawn irresistibly. His form for Forest, then one of the leading clubs in the land, was bitterly disappointing and, when Clough, not the most tolerant of men, discovered his new signing's sexual leanings, he suspended him. Fashanu wasn't having that and turned up for training, only for his manager to have him escorted publicly from the premises by the police.
Clearly his future lay away from the City Ground and, after much heartache, in 1982 he joined Notts County, then also in the top division and managed by Howard Wilkinson. For a while at Meadow Lane his career got back on course, only for a knee wound to become poisoned, after which he was never quite as effective again.
Following a brief interlude with Brighton, and as gossip about his sexuality became common currency, Fashanu went to the United States, then Canada, where he hoped to continue his footballing life while running a gay bar. In 1989 he returned to England and after abortive attempts to rescue his professional fortunes with several clubs, and feeling sickened by the prejudice he encountered constantly, he "came out" in 1990. In fact, the decision only increased the pressure on Fashanu, who became the subject of ever more frequent and lurid publicity: concocted allegations of affairs with Conservative MPs and stories of a lasting rift with his brother John, who had himself risen to eminence in the game with Wimbledon and England.
"You have to understand," said Justin Fashanu in an interview, "that footballers are very narrow-minded people. It's the nature of the business. When you put yourself in the firing line, you are open to attack. I know I'm there to be shot down in flames."
Courageously, he refused to give up on football, doing well in a stint with Torquay United, then serving Airdrieonians and Hearts in Scotland. More recently he had been living and coaching in the US, in Maryland, where he was being hunted by police last week after being charged with sexually assaulting a teenage boy. He was found dead in a lock-up garage in Shoreditch, east London, on Saturday. He had apparently hanged himself.
Justinus Soni Fashanu, footballer: born London 19 February 1961; played for Norwich City 1978-81, Nottingham Forest 1981-82, Southampton on loan 1982, Notts County 1982-85; Brighton and Hove Albion 1985, Manchester City 1989, West Ham United 1989, Leyton Orient 1990, Torquay United 1991-93, Airdrieonians 1993, Heart of Midlothian 1993; died London 2 May 1998.
It's a real shame because society has hugely improved since the 80's when bananas were thrown at black players and it was considered 'just a bit of fun'. Today the overwhelming majority would see that as disgusting. Those black players could not hide their colour but you can hide your sexual orientation and who can blame anyone for doing so.
Example: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/33101482
It's a travesty that this sort of stat (8% wouldn't go!) still exists and leads to an apparently newsworthy story. To anyone who fits into that 8% bracket; firstly, get out more; secondly, it's 2016 (not 1916).
Genuine question as I try to ignore anything religious these days so dont know what faith has updated its views
I know we, as a set of supporters, might assume that we are perhaps more forward thinking and enlightened than those at many other clubs but is that truly and always the case? It's far, far better than in the past and as a club we have led the way on many occasions but we have all heard supporters make racist remarks, perhaps even chants/songs. Even within the last few years if we are honest.
It's an assumption I know but those that are happy to sing offensive songs about Kevin Lisbie or in praise of Stephen Lawrence's killers are hardly likely create a welcoming environment for a gay player of our own OR the opposition's. This might be a relatively small and hopefully declining section of our support but it's still there, even at a club like ours. Many more supporters are still prepared to right off pejorative chants about Brighton fans being homosexual as 'banter' too.
I truly believe that CAFC, of all clubs, would support and provide a positive environment for a gay player but let's not kid ourself that we wouldn't have our own 8%'ers and this would only be an issue with opposition fans.
It's not like a gay person would say that people should come out as straight...
I just don't understand how or why it affects people so much.
They're just another human being.
And that's across all professions. A sweeping assumption, but I'd assume that a higher percentage of male actors and singers were gay than male sportsmen, especially those in team sports like football or rugby. It's not as if there have been significant numbers of retired footballers or rugby players in their 40s or 50s who've come out, having moved on from sport.
As to the original point, it's ridiculous that some fans wouldn't accept a gay footballer playing for their team, but after the behaviour and comments from a small minority of our fans at Gillingham, not entirely surprising...
Only a few days ago we had a few posters on here complaining about racist abuse from our fans at Gillingham so let's not kid ourselves that we wouldn't have fans giving homophobic abuse to a gay opposition player.
"Imagine a room full of under educated, young men from council estates. Not exactly the most open and welcoming environment if you feel like you're going to stand out."
Although many players don't come from council estates and even if they did that wouldn't make them homophobic.
The England Hockey Captain Kate Richardson-Walsh and team mate Helen
are married.
The England football team have Casey Stoney, who has twins with her female partner. Other players in the England woman team just want the focus to be on their football abilities not their sexual Orientation.
I just have a hunch the figure in Mens football is so much lower for Gays
than in everyday employment; so the handful have the right to be allowed to play football with out it being an issue.
Just like the colour of you skin it shouldn't Matter, Neither should your Sexual Preferences.
If Louis Spence could score 20 plus goals a season, Welcome to CAFC.
plus the Tunnel jump would be fun.
You will have to take my word on this but i have seen Gay Charlton fans singing "we can see you holding hands" which tells me Gays fans are like the rest of us ? some will be offended by words and some just see it as banter.
Would any of the Gay folk on CL like to explain.
Or straights or Asexuals, Bisexuals or Transgender.
Sorry if i have left anybody out !