The General Election - June 8th 2017
Comments
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Surely it's simply a care tax, as you have to pay no matter what the illness is!?2
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Because the only other real alternative (labour) want to spend,spend, spend - on all sorts of things that wont really help matters (re-nationalisation of the railways, electricity companies etc etc, An investment Bank & free further education for everyone) Then, in 5 years time when we are broke (again) and everyone has been taxed to the hilt, the Tory's will have to come to the rescue, like they did in 1979 & 2010.Sheepie1985 said:...I'm still yet to read a single reason to vote for Conservatives, anyone else thinking the same?
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Labour saved us in 2008 but buy into that Tory propaganda about 2010.golfaddick said:
Because the only other real alternative (labour) want to spend,spend, spend - on all sorts of things that wont really help matters (re-nationalisation of the railways, electricity companies etc etc, An investment Bank & free further education for everyone) Then, in 5 years time when we are broke (again) and everyone has been taxed to the hilt, the Tory's will have to come to the rescue, like they did in 1979 & 2010.Sheepie1985 said:...I'm still yet to read a single reason to vote for Conservatives, anyone else thinking the same?
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For me it's not been a rescue. It feels more like we flatlined, we got our heartbeat back and it's been a life support machine ever since.golfaddick said:
Because the only other real alternative (labour) want to spend,spend, spend - on all sorts of things that wont really help matters (re-nationalisation of the railways, electricity companies etc etc, An investment Bank & free further education for everyone) Then, in 5 years time when we are broke (again) and everyone has been taxed to the hilt, the Tory's will have to come to the rescue, like they did in 1979 & 2010.Sheepie1985 said:...I'm still yet to read a single reason to vote for Conservatives, anyone else thinking the same?
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Denentia tax is a label, but there is a reason for it. If you have cancer, the NHS will pay for your home care because it comes under the NHS. But yes it is a care tax too in certain cases. From one perspective, it is a dementia tax if you look at it from the perspective that somebody who gets dementia must pay and somebody who doesn't get it doesn't. But what difference does it make what you call it - the principle should be about fairness and if this furore has helped us get closer to that, it is a good thing.The Organiser said:Surely it's simply a care tax, as you have to pay no matter what the illness is!?
This is an old article -2014 - I have quickly googled it - but it helps to clarify. The more people undertsand about this the better and this is a terrific development from this row, I have been shouting about it for a while but people have woken up to the injustice now. This area is of concern for both Conservative and Labour voters. The issue was caused because the conservatives were trying to help - only they decided to ignore the findings of Dillnot who the government comissioned and who all sides agreed with. His recomendations were due to come in in 2015, but Cameron put them off until 2020 - not to be fair beacuse he thought nothing should be done, but because financially we were not ready to implement in the governments opinion.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/10/dementia-cancer-nhs-carehttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/10/dementia-cancer-nhs-care2 -
Well I earn over £80k and I would gladly pay more in taxes for Corbyn's plans to protect the NHS and schools. I wouldn't give a penny extra for the tories to piss it up someone's wall to protect the 'party'.DamoNorthStand said:
What about the people over £80k?SELR_addicks said:
Corbyn at least says anyone earning under £80,000 won't be affected. The only assurance May has given is to businesses.DamoNorthStand said:
Well Corbyn is proposing tax rises so unless that's ok because it is only certain people that would be affected, I make that even stevens.SELR_addicks said:Theresa May is coming across terribly on this election debate interview.
Zero figures for anything and refuses to rule out rises in National Insurance and Income tax.
She also mentions Brexit at the end of every sentence.20 -
Anyway, let's hope the final outcome is acceptable to most of us.MuttleyCAFC said:But it is a dementia tax - If you get dementia you are on your own. 1 in 6 of us will get dementia - as we get older that number is increasing. Dementia is not classified as an illness simply because the government doesn't want to pay for it.. Well that isn't entirely fair, but they have been too frightened to address it, because the solution is to spread the pain. spread the risk so less is paid. But people with dementia don't realise what is going on so they can't stick up for themselves. That is a dementia tax.
Now there are other groups of people who have to pay for their care costs. I'm not denying that and I know that because my mother needs a carer and she pays for it 100%. She has nothing wrong with her mind, but is in a wheelchair and cannot walk so needs help getting out of bed, and using the shower and toilet. But if you get dementia and you have to pay money that people without dementia don't have to, then you can class that as a dementia tax. Most of the people in residential care are there because of dementia
If you want to argue about whether it is strictly a dementia tax or not, you are sort of missing the point! The way I am looking at it - if you have to pay if you get dementia and not if you don't it is a dementia tax. That doesn't mean other people don't pay for their care too - it is all wrong!0 -
I'm feel the same for Labour, but at the same time I'm finding it harder and harder to find reasons to vote for Tory, so a spoiled vote it will beSheepie1985 said:...I'm still yet to read a single reason to vote for Conservatives, anyone else thinking the same?
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Draw a rude picture in the Labour candidates voting box GJ.Greenie Junior said:
I'm feel the same for Labour, but at the same time I'm finding it harder and harder to find reasons to vote for Tory, so a spoiled vote it will beSheepie1985 said:...I'm still yet to read a single reason to vote for Conservatives, anyone else thinking the same?
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MuttleyCAFC said:
Great analogy there Cabbies.cabbles said:
I genuinely think they were deluded enough to think that a vote for Brexit, the rise of UKIP and the gradual decline in confidence in Labour to represent their core meant they are suddenly going to just sweep in and pick up these votes as if it were taking candy from a baby. I genuinely believe they feel they don't have to explain themselves because their core support remains and anyone who voted labour or UKIP is probably too simple to have to offer substantive policy to. They've lived off Labour's demise in the final few years of Blair/Brown. Problem is, like our football club, the longer they stay in power, the quicker we realise they're not representative of anyone else but their own.Sheepie1985 said:...I'm still yet to read a single reason to vote for Conservatives, anyone else thinking the same?
I'm not an economist, I don't understand figures, and although some of you will probably tell me the gap between the rich and the poor is closing based on GDP or whatever metric, sure doesn't feel like that
They're Meiresque in theory and execution.
Ahhemmmm
http://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/comment/2849707#Comment_28497072 - Sponsored links:
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Draw a cross to ward away the devil socialists. Make it a Scottish cross just in case they're ScottishCordoban Addick said:
Draw a rude picture in the Labour candidates voting box GJ.Greenie Junior said:
I'm feel the same for Labour, but at the same time I'm finding it harder and harder to find reasons to vote for Tory, so a spoiled vote it will beSheepie1985 said:...I'm still yet to read a single reason to vote for Conservatives, anyone else thinking the same?
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Seriously? OK. As a poster (forum) boy for the Conservatives, explain to me exactly how well they have done at reducing the deficit since coming in 7 (SEVEN) years ago?golfaddick said:
Because the only other real alternative (labour) want to spend,spend, spend - on all sorts of things that wont really help matters (re-nationalisation of the railways, electricity companies etc etc, An investment Bank & free further education for everyone) Then, in 5 years time when we are broke (again) and everyone has been taxed to the hilt, the Tory's will have to come to the rescue, like they did in 1979 & 2010.Sheepie1985 said:...I'm still yet to read a single reason to vote for Conservatives, anyone else thinking the same?
You do know that when you come to the rescue, you're meant to untie the damsel BEFORE the train has run over her!!!!!5 -
@MuttleyCAFC is right about how care needs are funded. As he says NHS funding should be free but Social Care (Local Authority) isn't.
This gives a brief guide http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/2392.aspx?CategoryID=68 and this gives a little more background https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/193700/NHS_CHC_Public_Information_Leaflet_Final.pdf
It is of course complex and things can 'confuse' the system like Direct Payments, Personal Payments and the sometimes (not always) differential costs between private payers and council funded payers in care homes. This gives a little more detail https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/local-authority-funding-for-care-costs-do-you-qualify
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Mutley, I think you are letting the election cloud your judgement. I admire greatly your passion for this subject but your understanding of the current system isn't quite correct. As in as short as I possibly can the process currently is broadly (and this has been in for many years):MuttleyCAFC said:But it is a dementia tax - If you get dementia you are on your own. 1 in 6 of us will get dementia - as we get older that number is increasing. Dementia is not classified as an illness simply because the government doesn't want to pay for it.. Well that isn't entirely fair, but they have been too frightened to address it, because the solution is to spread the pain. spread the risk so less is paid. But people with dementia don't realise what is going on so they can't stick up for themselves. That is a dementia tax.
Now there are other groups of people who have to pay for their care costs. I'm not denying that and I know that because my mother needs a carer and she pays for it 100%. But if you get dementia and you have to pay money that people without dementia don't have to, then you can class that as a dementia tax. Most of the people in residential care are there because of dementia.
1. Either someone themselves, GP/Hospital referral, family referral etc decides they want/need to go into a care home.
2. There is a means test carried out. Now that conversation can be pretty quick if you ring up and say they own a house and have £200k in the bank but ultimately it's around the £23k figure referred to.
3. On the assumption you have the £23k or more type number you will be told you have to fund your own care.
4. If you have less than the £23k your care will likely be paid (although they will take your pension etc, a proportion of which you can keep, a minimal amount of about £25 a week), up to the agreed amount.
5. You can apply for what is called 'continuing care' which has a number on tests on your health/wellbeing namely:
Behaviour, cognition, communication, psychological/emotional needs, mobility, nutrition (food and drink), continence, skin (including wounds and ulcers), breathing, symptom control through drug therapies and medication, altered states of consciousness and other significant needs.
Based on the scores on those (I won't go into the scoring system right now) it may be agreed that you meet the criteria and your care will be funded or you don't and it will not.
As i've already mentioned that may be a dementia patient such as my best mates two parents who received this funding or my father who also has dementia who doesn't receive continuing care.
I'm not saying the current system is any good or I agree with it, but that broadly is what it is, none of which is a dementia tax other than on the basis a large proportion in care have dementia. Do you know what percentage of them are funded either due to lack of funds or through continuing care?
10 biggest myths about continuing care: http://www.whentheygetolder.co.uk/the-10-biggest-myths-about-nhs-continuing-healthcare-funding/
2. “If you have dementia you’re not eligible for NHS Continuing Healthcare.”
False
Sadly many families are told this by NHS, local authority assessors and others. It’s crystal clear from all the guidelines about Continuing Healthcare that the funding has nothing whatsoever to do with any specific diagnoses. Instead it’s to do with day-to-day health and care needs regardless of diagnosis and regardless of whether or not a person has dementia.
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Spat my drink out at this, very goodLeuth said:
Draw a cross to ward away the devil socialists. Make it a Scottish cross just in case they're ScottishCordoban Addick said:
Draw a rude picture in the Labour candidates voting box GJ.Greenie Junior said:
I'm feel the same for Labour, but at the same time I'm finding it harder and harder to find reasons to vote for Tory, so a spoiled vote it will beSheepie1985 said:...I'm still yet to read a single reason to vote for Conservatives, anyone else thinking the same?
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Apparently at the last election somebody drew a cock in the Tory candidates 'box*' and the Tory successfully argued that it was a vote for them.Leuth said:
Draw a cross to ward away the devil socialists. Make it a Scottish cross just in case they're ScottishCordoban Addick said:
Draw a rude picture in the Labour candidates voting box GJ.Greenie Junior said:
I'm feel the same for Labour, but at the same time I'm finding it harder and harder to find reasons to vote for Tory, so a spoiled vote it will beSheepie1985 said:...I'm still yet to read a single reason to vote for Conservatives, anyone else thinking the same?
* Obvious joke noted Big Rob.5 -
Just seen the advert for Nuttall on the Andrew Neill interviews - if he nailed May, Nutall will get a pounding0
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Is she for real? "The social care system is going to collapse. We need to act and do something about it now."
What about the housing market ffs?
Oh no wait, they're saving the social care system by making everyone homeless.5 -
Has it dawned on people that Brexit suddenly isn't all that important any more?
That Andrew Neill interview was painful. May is hopeless at just... Sounding like a person. She's more a a robot.6 -
Does the BBC allow that kind of thing before the watershed?cabbles said:Just seen the advert for Nuttall on the Andrew Neill interviews - if he nailed May, Nutall will get a pounding
In fairness, I knew Private Eye have a long running joke about AN, I never imagined it to be true.1 - Sponsored links:
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I'm not sure if you know what you are asking me ? The deficit in 2010 was £100 billion, in 2016 it was £40 billion. The amount we owe (debt) has been growing, and we pay about 8% of the total amount raised in tax servicing this debt. That is why the Government (both the 2010 coalition & the 2015 Tory Government) have overseen a period of austerity so as to try & pay down this debt.TelMc32 said:
Seriously? OK. As a poster (forum) boy for the Conservatives, explain to me exactly how well they have done at reducing the deficit since coming in 7 (SEVEN) years ago?golfaddick said:
Because the only other real alternative (labour) want to spend,spend, spend - on all sorts of things that wont really help matters (re-nationalisation of the railways, electricity companies etc etc, An investment Bank & free further education for everyone) Then, in 5 years time when we are broke (again) and everyone has been taxed to the hilt, the Tory's will have to come to the rescue, like they did in 1979 & 2010.Sheepie1985 said:...I'm still yet to read a single reason to vote for Conservatives, anyone else thinking the same?
You do know that when you come to the rescue, you're meant to untie the damsel BEFORE the train has run over her!!!!!
I see many faults with the Conservatives & dont agree with all their policies, but one thing I have learnt, from living through the 1970's with the 3 day week, power cuts & the unions running everything, to my general experience of being a financial advisor for more than 25 years is that someday someone has to pay for the things you want & that there is only a finite amount of money that can be raised from tax.1 -
Didn't know their running joke, so googled it. One of the images that comes up later is a lookalike of Diane Abbott and...Darth Vader!! Not sure what he's like a maths!NornIrishAddick said:
Does the BBC allow that kind of thing before the watershed?cabbles said:Just seen the advert for Nuttall on the Andrew Neill interviews - if he nailed May, Nutall will get a pounding
In fairness, I knew Private Eye have a long running joke about AN, I never imagined it to be true.
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P.S. Fair play to Andrew Neil...the boy is well and truly punching above his weight!0
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Who the fuck has been running the country for the last seven years and have allowed it to get into this state!cabbles said:Is she for real? "The social care system is going to collapse. We need to act and do something about it now."
What about the housing market ffs?
Oh no wait, they're saving the social care system by making everyone homeless.6 -
I originally saw him as a guy I could support bexause his heart was in the right place. But the Labour manifesto, at short notice and probably the best from any party, shows he should be a shoe-in to lead the c
I think Golfie has trunped him ten foldCovered End said:So with the greatest respect to Muttley, he's talking ballcocks.
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Is there any chance that I started the "strong and stable my arse" meme?
http://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/comment/2849836#Comment_2849836
I know it is unlikely but let me have a few moments of fame...2 -
I file 'dementia tax' and 'bedroom tax' next to 'the Labour financial crash of 2008'.0
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I thought Labour's main problem was an incompetent leader. Watching Mike Kane, the Shadow School Minister, now on Newsnight, and I can't believe the Labour leadership has allowed him to be interviewed. As each day goes by I am staggered by the incompetence that seems endemic across the whole shadow cabinet.0
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Yep, apologies. Mixing my debts with my deficits. The latter (public sector) had risen to £1.73 trillion at the end of 2016. 89.3% of GDP, up from about 60% 7 years ago and up £65.3bn in a year. The deficit reduced to £57.2bn (3% of GDP), down £24.2bn in the year.golfaddick said:
I'm not sure if you know what you are asking me ? The deficit in 2010 was £100 billion, in 2016 it was £40 billion. The amount we owe (debt) has been growing, and we pay about 8% of the total amount raised in tax servicing this debt. That is why the Government (both the 2010 coalition & the 2015 Tory Government) have overseen a period of austerity so as to try & pay down this debt.TelMc32 said:
Seriously? OK. As a poster (forum) boy for the Conservatives, explain to me exactly how well they have done at reducing the deficit since coming in 7 (SEVEN) years ago?golfaddick said:
Because the only other real alternative (labour) want to spend,spend, spend - on all sorts of things that wont really help matters (re-nationalisation of the railways, electricity companies etc etc, An investment Bank & free further education for everyone) Then, in 5 years time when we are broke (again) and everyone has been taxed to the hilt, the Tory's will have to come to the rescue, like they did in 1979 & 2010.Sheepie1985 said:...I'm still yet to read a single reason to vote for Conservatives, anyone else thinking the same?
You do know that when you come to the rescue, you're meant to untie the damsel BEFORE the train has run over her!!!!!
I see many faults with the Conservatives & dont agree with all their policies, but one thing I have learnt, from living through the 1970's with the 3 day week, power cuts & the unions running everything, to my general experience of being a financial advisor for more than 25 years is that someday someone has to pay for the things you want & that there is only a finite amount of money that can be raised from tax.
That 8% cost of repayments can be netted to 5% as we pay ourselves a 1/3 for the amount owed to government.0 -
I think May & The Tories have had a poor week and been far from impressive.
But when push comes to shove I don't believe enough people could bring themselves to vote for Corbyn & Abbot to ensure a Labour victory.0
