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The General Election - June 8th 2017

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Comments

  • Chizz said:

    cabbles said:

    Surely Boris would absolutely embarrass himself on a national general election campaign trail within a week or so? I know the public used to be warm to him back in the days when Have I Got News For You used to be popular but hasn't the general opinion on him cooled down?

    If he's the best they've got, and replaces May then what the hell has happened to leadership in this country. I mean I get I'm anti tory, but is that the best we've got and who we would want leading Brexit.

    The more the events of the last 24 hours start to set in with me, the more I realise what a shambles politics in our country is
    Ruth Davidson is a formadible politician that I would personally fear. Boris after an acrimonious battle to get May to go would be a gift from the gods. Whilst still popular with some, his brand is toxic with an increasing number of people. That and the inevitable cock ups and if the tories do this out of desperation they will be writing their suicide letter.
    Right now, Ruth Davidson would be the most likely leader to win the next election for the Tories. Thankfully, I don't think they are collectively smart enough to do what would be required to elect her.
    She's not currently an MP though, only an MSP.
    Yes, that's why I said "do what would be required", ie amending any party rules so that a non-MP can be elected leader (if that's prohibited in their current rules).
  • edited June 2017

    Chizz said:

    cabbles said:

    Surely Boris would absolutely embarrass himself on a national general election campaign trail within a week or so? I know the public used to be warm to him back in the days when Have I Got News For You used to be popular but hasn't the general opinion on him cooled down?

    If he's the best they've got, and replaces May then what the hell has happened to leadership in this country. I mean I get I'm anti tory, but is that the best we've got and who we would want leading Brexit.

    The more the events of the last 24 hours start to set in with me, the more I realise what a shambles politics in our country is
    Ruth Davidson is a formadible politician that I would personally fear. Boris after an acrimonious battle to get May to go would be a gift from the gods. Whilst still popular with some, his brand is toxic with an increasing number of people. That and the inevitable cock ups and if the tories do this out of desperation they will be writing their suicide letter.
    Right now, Ruth Davidson would be the most likely leader to win the next election for the Tories. Thankfully, I don't think they are collectively smart enough to do what would be required to elect her.
    She's not currently an MP though, only an MSP.
    Only a by-election away, with a little sweetener for her coming down south and saving the party. :wink:

    Well I can dream, I think she would be brilliant. Not only for her political strength mind, but also for her views - I suspect she'd be a breathe of fresh air after May.

    As for Boris, for those doubting him - do it at your own risk. I think the silly old fool actually has quite a cunning strategist mindset beneath the hair. Either that or his mayoral election campaigns were engineered by some truly remarkable chaps, as it's no easy feat to turn London Blue.
  • Have labour organised an open top bus to celebrate coming runners up yet?

    Well Corbyn does support Arsenal "trophy for finishing fourth"...
  • It's good to see the left have handled things as magnanimously as you would expect...


    image

    To be fair mate you've been a very good sport through. I've skipped over a few pages but I'm sorry if you got stick.
  • If this is the result country is screwed regardless of persuasion

    Not really! We just keep evolving until we get it right...

    IMHO Labour simply need to drop nationalisation of utilities plus borrow some macro-economics from Keynes and the OECD to move into line with European social democratic parties.

    And pivot to an EEA solution for Brexit.

    I doubt they will do all of those for their new mix has proved to be a game changer. They have succeeded where Sanders in the US and Melenchon in France have failed by improving their vote.

    UKIP have vapourised and the Tory empress had no clothes. "Brexit means Brexit" followed by "enough is enough" was just populist nonsense. One could say the same about nationalising utilities or abolishing university fees.... But the fact is that the young have come out to vote and university constituencies swung to the red corner.

    So now we have the DUP in coalition with the Conservative and Unionist Party. Perhaps this is what is required to pivot to a Norway style EEA solution??? It's hard to comment on the DUP strategy and tactics but it is very clear that the Northern Irish economy needs a decent Brexit deal.

    In the meantime we keep marching towards 2025 where the demographic time bomb kicks in. Two of the highest government budgets are for pensions and the NHS. And much of the NHS costs are for the over 50s.

    Any party attracting and maintaining the youth vote will be looking to prioritise education and job creation and that's the real debate for the next decade.

    Those issues, defence innovation/productivity and security in the middle east are and have always been far more important that Brexit.

    Labour will evolve and fine tune their approach in time for the next election. Whether the Tories can or even want to remains to be seen. Just as May's tenure appears to have shortened somewhat.

    We are in act III of the Brexit saga and it's full of surprises. Within 12 months we should know more about the outcome.

    The only thing which appears to have receeded is the SNP as well as the chances of a Macron style new centre force - perhaps that option depends upon what the Lib Dems do. Good to see Vince Cable back and perhaps a new leader can find a way back to 15%+ in the polls?
  • I've heard that Theresa May's replacement is going to be Joseph Kony
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  • McBobbin said:

    I've heard that Theresa May's replacement is going to be Joseph Kony

    Kony 2017!
  • Fair play to Corbyn for not adopting Trump's 'grab em by the pussy' mantra, but I don't think 'slap em on the tit' is much better to be honest...

  • SDAddick said:

    Fiiish said:

    Will freely admit I'm neither educated nor particularly intelligent, so looking to take on board the views of others.

    Where it comes to socialism, and the strapline 'for the many not the few' (which I think people massively bought into), isn't the fact that unemployment is at the lowest levels since 1975 not the best possible aspect of providing a platform and opportunities for all?

    WSS said:

    The Labour party needs to get some centrist players into the fold.

    Agree.

    How labour move forward from this is massive. No infighting and the centrist power players uniting under corbyn could see real force.

    Unfortunately, the centrists turned their backs on corbyn during the repeated lynchings and I think this will not go unpunished.
    But Corbyn is far left and that is what rising numbers of people are apparently voting for, so why should they change?
    The numbers don't tell the whole story though.

    The government fudges numbers by not counting certain people as unemployed.

    A lot of these new jobs created are on subsistence wages that need to be topped up by in work benefits.

    Wages are not keeping up with the cost of essentials such as rent, fuel, food etc.

    If employers could pay everyone 5 pounds a day and people were forced into such jobs by government sanctions then unemployment would be wiped out but obviously that is not the way to live.

    It is also of note that employment rates are higher where cost of living is higher and pockets of unemployment exist in areas with no jobs and no wealth creation, causing a poverty cycle .
    So I'm eight hours behind (literally and figuratively) and just catching up.

    I think this is a very important lesson. And I'd contrast it to @seth plum 's missus' sentiment about university fees turning out the youth vote. If we're treating 18-25 as the yoot, then half of them will be outside of the typical university age anyway. Perhaps debt forgiveness yes, but it's not just that simple.

    As someone who graduated university in 2008, I can say that it feels like my generation (who I'd include in the 18-25 year olds) got a very bad deal. We've seen high unemployment numbers but more importantly, stagnant wages, as is outlined above. I have a lot of friends in Britain with good degrees who struggled for years to find anything beyond temp work. And with years of experience being important in most fields, that puts you back for a long time.

    IF, and this is a big if, this is the beginning of a move toward more leftist politics (a lot of ifs here), it will be driven by a group of young people who believe that the economy is currently unfair, and that they have had to pay the price for the mistakes of others.
    Isn't that because we have too many graduates?

    The numbers going to university have steadily increased, without any evidence that the economy needs these extra graduates. It might need specific graduates (e.g. in languages, maths and science) but not vast numbers of people with Sociology or History degrees.

    Is a tricky one, in my industry in the city there are in general probably 1/3 less jobs than ten years ago, more automation/efficiency, some off shore to India and some to more tax/profit efficient countries.

    So it's probably a double whammy, add to that in general we take proportionately less graduates, I find it better to take them after A-Levels, they can do their insurance studies (equivalent to a degree) in the three years as well as on the job training, they are happy learning and earning money and city night life and three years on I've got a much better qualified member of staff who's happy.

    Some roles require say a math degree (actuary), if we have 1 graduate vacancy we'll get 100+ applications.

    Personally I'd think hard at 18 if university is the right thing to do for the next 3 years..... it must be sole destroying, not sure how we resolve that, there just don't seem to be enough graduates jobs out there, so either people have to lower their sights, less go to university or we somehow create more jobs.......
  • Ps, anyone coming to the end of their A-Levels, ideally studying maths with good grades at GCSE and expected A levels, must be personable, smart, willing to learn, team player ...... blah blah get in touch with me ASAP, I need another Charlton fan in the office (and a member of staff :wink: )
  • Rob7Lee said:

    SDAddick said:

    Fiiish said:

    Will freely admit I'm neither educated nor particularly intelligent, so looking to take on board the views of others.

    Where it comes to socialism, and the strapline 'for the many not the few' (which I think people massively bought into), isn't the fact that unemployment is at the lowest levels since 1975 not the best possible aspect of providing a platform and opportunities for all?

    WSS said:

    The Labour party needs to get some centrist players into the fold.

    Agree.

    How labour move forward from this is massive. No infighting and the centrist power players uniting under corbyn could see real force.

    Unfortunately, the centrists turned their backs on corbyn during the repeated lynchings and I think this will not go unpunished.
    But Corbyn is far left and that is what rising numbers of people are apparently voting for, so why should they change?
    The numbers don't tell the whole story though.

    The government fudges numbers by not counting certain people as unemployed.

    A lot of these new jobs created are on subsistence wages that need to be topped up by in work benefits.

    Wages are not keeping up with the cost of essentials such as rent, fuel, food etc.

    If employers could pay everyone 5 pounds a day and people were forced into such jobs by government sanctions then unemployment would be wiped out but obviously that is not the way to live.

    It is also of note that employment rates are higher where cost of living is higher and pockets of unemployment exist in areas with no jobs and no wealth creation, causing a poverty cycle .
    So I'm eight hours behind (literally and figuratively) and just catching up.

    I think this is a very important lesson. And I'd contrast it to @seth plum 's missus' sentiment about university fees turning out the youth vote. If we're treating 18-25 as the yoot, then half of them will be outside of the typical university age anyway. Perhaps debt forgiveness yes, but it's not just that simple.

    As someone who graduated university in 2008, I can say that it feels like my generation (who I'd include in the 18-25 year olds) got a very bad deal. We've seen high unemployment numbers but more importantly, stagnant wages, as is outlined above. I have a lot of friends in Britain with good degrees who struggled for years to find anything beyond temp work. And with years of experience being important in most fields, that puts you back for a long time.

    IF, and this is a big if, this is the beginning of a move toward more leftist politics (a lot of ifs here), it will be driven by a group of young people who believe that the economy is currently unfair, and that they have had to pay the price for the mistakes of others.
    Isn't that because we have too many graduates?

    The numbers going to university have steadily increased, without any evidence that the economy needs these extra graduates. It might need specific graduates (e.g. in languages, maths and science) but not vast numbers of people with Sociology or History degrees.

    Is a tricky one, in my industry in the city there are in general probably 1/3 less jobs than ten years ago, more automation/efficiency, some off shore to India and some to more tax/profit efficient countries.

    So it's probably a double whammy, add to that in general we take proportionately less graduates, I find it better to take them after A-Levels, they can do their insurance studies (equivalent to a degree) in the three years as well as on the job training, they are happy learning and earning money and city night life and three years on I've got a much better qualified member of staff who's happy.

    Some roles require say a math degree (actuary), if we have 1 graduate vacancy we'll get 100+ applications.

    Personally I'd think hard at 18 if university is the right thing to do for the next 3 years..... it must be sole destroying, not sure how we resolve that, there just don't seem to be enough graduates jobs out there, so either people have to lower their sights, less go to university or we somehow create more jobs.......
    Governments of both colours have used university and other further education as a way of delaying people entering the Labour market and so being counted as unemployed.
  • Chizz said:

    In a sea of analysis and statistics, I thought this from Sky Data was interesting: 59%

    Age 18-34
    Labour 63%
    Conservative 27%

    Age 35-54
    Labour 43%
    Conservative 43%

    Age 55+
    Labour 23%
    Conservative 59%

    There is obviously a number of ways in which to interpret that set of data, but one would be that the Conservative/Labour traditional split is no longer rich vs poor, but young vs old.

    Even if it's generally young v old, it's still more about money than anything else.

    Youngsters voting Labour because they haven't yet had the opportunity to build up their capital.

    Older voters voting Tory, because they have and would like to keep it.

    Obviously, a large generalisation.
  • While money comes into it, it also has to be said that Corbyn offered a much more positive campaign, and for younger voters, who haven't developed the wisdom/cynicism/bitterness that comes with age, that idealised view of the world is very appealing.

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  • The British public don't deserve Theresa May. I'm sure even Conservative voters, party members and even many Tory MPs must think that. Do the UK want her going into EU negotiations after showing what spectacularly poor judgement she has?
  • I'm delighted for her to undertake the Brexit negotiations tbh
  • Fantastic day. And watching the tories and their supporters squirm and wriggle is just brilliant.
    It's going to be like shooting fish in a barrel for Labour in the next few months.
    Strong and stable!
  • When Stan Collymore is questioning your morals...
  • Rothko said:
    This is the problem - It is crazy!
This discussion has been closed.

Roland Out Forever!