People criticising Labour celebrations is like fans mocking a team who were set for relegation and looked dead and burried but stayed up for not winning the league! Especially when £100m was spent to relegate them.
Awful question time audience again.
The trouble is Corbyn, Chakrabarti and some good people on here, think they did win the league.
As you say they stayed up.
Sometimes staying up can win as good as winning the league, not that i recall us ever winning a relegation battle!
In answer to your question chizz I imagine we'd start another one. Fingers crossed the Tories and the DUP are the best coalition we've ever seen and they last the full 5 years
I am still confused as to what we are seeing. Exact words as I understand is a minority conservative government with 'arrangements in place'. So not a full coalition.......
Basically Parliament is back on the 13th I think, they need to vote on the new government so as long as DUP step put their hands in the air I think the conservatives are in with their support on an case by case basis. Think Corbyn has a different idea......
There is no doubt that Theresa May has made a complete and utter mess of this, but I do think she is aware of this and is in touch with reality.
Chakrabarti and Corbyn are both adamant that Labour won the election and should form the next government.
Corbyn even goes further by saying he wants to do this without any deals.
I'm sorry, but the guy has lost all sense of reality.
The reason I disagree with you on this is that Corbyn has been propelled into this position by circumstances he didn't control. It is May that called the election and is now not in a majority. Corbyn is saying well we're not in a majority either, he also says to May 'you go first'. Corbyn is highlighting the circumstances that May brought about, two large but minority parties, but as the Tories are the largest minority they're entitled to do a Queen's speech. It might fail, there might then be a Labour Queen's speech, that might fail too. It is the logical process to follow. Corbyn is not saying he is more entitled than May, but in the queue which presumably has the Greens at the back. If Caroline Lucas got enough backing then she could form the next government.
I'm no Tory but I have a fairly clear sense of what I want in a Tory - fusty, rural, eccentric, jovial and above all sincere. They should have the demeanour of gentry (or at least, military folk) and use their cruel, hard-nosed commitment to self-interest in the service of personal liberty. They should oppose the nanny-state at every turn - ditto authoritarianism - and they should pay their servants well (and encourage everyone else down the rotary to do the same). They should put aside generous alms for the needy and they should love nature and its conservation. They should have an encyclopedic knowledge of their constituency and how old all of its churches are. Did Tories of this kind ever exist? It is perhaps a pipe-dream, but I can well imagine Tories of yore cleaving somewhat to this portrayal.
We are faced with a very different sort of Tory as the default. A sort of rapacious soulless bastard who thrives on hatred and positively relishes authoritarianism. Who disdains whimsy or even intellect; who frames everything as a fight and who never, ever chills out. Who embraces the alt-right, for fuck's sake.
Labour now have some principled politicians with good social-democratic aims and approachable demeanours. Not many, but a few. One is leader. It's almost enough.
Can the Tories please put forward some proper Tory politicians too? It's getting boring.
People criticising Labour celebrations is like fans mocking a team who were set for relegation and looked dead and burried but stayed up for not winning the league! Especially when £100m was spent to relegate them.
Awful question time audience again.
It's more like the plucky British no hoper, that everyone expected to lose 6-2 6-0 6-1 to Federer, but actually managed to win the 2nd set on a tie break before losing in 4 sets...
Followed by Federer crashing out in the next round!
In answer to your question chizz I imagine we'd start another one. Fingers crossed the Tories and the DUP are the best coalition we've ever seen and they last the full 5 years
I am still confused as to what we are seeing. Exact words as I understand is a minority conservative government with 'arrangements in place'. So not a full coalition.......
Basically Parliament is back on the 13th I think, they need to vote on the new government so as long as DUP step put their hands in the air I think the conservatives are in with their support on an case by case basis. Think Corbyn has a different idea......
There is no doubt that Theresa May has made a complete and utter mess of this, but I do think she is aware of this and is in touch with reality.
Chakrabarti and Corbyn are both adamant that Labour won the election and should form the next government.
Corbyn even goes further by saying he wants to do this without any deals.
I'm sorry, but the guy has lost all sense of reality.
The reason I disagree with you on this is that Corbyn has been propelled into this position by circumstances he didn't control. It is May that called the election and is now not in a majority. Corbyn is saying well we're not in a majority either, he also says to May 'you go first'. Corbyn is highlighting the circumstances that May brought about, two large but minority parties, but as the Tories are the largest minority they're entitled to do a Queen's speech. It might fail, there might then be a Labour Queen's speech, that might fail too. It is the logical process to follow. Corbyn is not saying he is more entitled than May, but in the queue which presumably has the Greens at the back. If Caroline Lucas got enough backing then she could form the next government.
In answer to your question chizz I imagine we'd start another one. Fingers crossed the Tories and the DUP are the best coalition we've ever seen and they last the full 5 years
I am still confused as to what we are seeing. Exact words as I understand is a minority conservative government with 'arrangements in place'. So not a full coalition.......
Basically Parliament is back on the 13th I think, they need to vote on the new government so as long as DUP step put their hands in the air I think the conservatives are in with their support on an case by case basis. Think Corbyn has a different idea......
There is no doubt that Theresa May has made a complete and utter mess of this, but I do think she is aware of this and is in touch with reality.
Chakrabarti and Corbyn are both adamant that Labour won the election and should form the next government.
Corbyn even goes further by saying he wants to do this without any deals.
I'm sorry, but the guy has lost all sense of reality.
The reason I disagree with you on this is that Corbyn has been propelled into this position by circumstances he didn't control. It is May that called the election and is now not in a majority. Corbyn is saying well we're not in a majority either, he also says to May 'you go first'. Corbyn is highlighting the circumstances that May brought about, two large but minority parties, but as the Tories are the largest minority they're entitled to do a Queen's speech. It might fail, there might then be a Labour Queen's speech, that might fail too. It is the logical process to follow. Corbyn is not saying he is more entitled than May, but in the queue which presumably has the Greens at the back. If Caroline Lucas got enough backing then she could form the next government.
Christ, do the Greens think they won as well ?
Everyone wins when the Tories lose (their majority)
I think the real failure of the campaign was Elmo who finished with just three votes. How did he manage that, when he must have had ten subscribers just for his nomination to be valid? This is therefore a man who lost at least 70% of his support during the election. I think some hard questions need to be asked and if he had any dignity he'd resign as Elmo right now.
Ian Hislop wanted to congratulate Jeremy Corbyn on running such a successful campaign and ended it by saying "he is now as successful as Gordon Brown was when he lost"
I don't really get why Labour are so happy. They still lost to an awful Tory campaign and are no better off than they were in 2010. If that is a victory then what is a defeat?
It's 2017 - you must have missed the election in between.
Funnily enough, AV is more first past the post than first past the post is!
FPTP (in actuality, most votes wins) is objectively the worst voting system and least democratic out of any voting system used today. The fact we still use it for our national government when regional assemblies use another much better system is quite frankly an embarrassment.
I've always liked the idea of FPTP for the constituencies, but with a fully elected upper house, with its representation matching the popular vote and with greater powers to block / change legislation.
Funnily enough, AV is more first past the post than first past the post is!
FPTP (in actuality, most votes wins) is objectively the worst voting system and least democratic out of any voting system used today. The fact we still use it for our national government when regional assemblies use another much better system is quite frankly an embarrassment.
I've always liked the idea of FPTP for the constituencies, but with a fully elected upper house, with its representation matching the popular vote and with greater powers to block / change legislation.
This has been my view for a while. Lords appointed after each election on a pure PR basis. You get 5% of the vote you get 5% of the lords.
Removal of all hereditary peers (obviously).
It may go so way to reducing tactical voting too if the lords has greater powers of scrutiny.
Corbyn was 2,227 votes away from being made Prime Minister.
This close after a snap election called by his opponent at a moment she chose.
Timed so that brexit negotiations are round the corner, and a sizable amount of people would want consistency rather than a sudden change.
When the press smeared him every chance they got, including the disgraceful headlines on polling day.
With the rich pumping money into the Tory campaign to the tune of tens of thousands per hour.
When nobody gave him a chance.
2,227 votes away. And some constituencies unlocked from a century of conservative rule. The highest youth turnout in recent times. 600,000 members in the Labour party. People inspired in politics again, believing in a politician (!!!).
No, it wasn't a win but it sure as hell feels like one.
Corbyn was 2,227 votes away from being made Prime Minister.
This close after a snap election called by his opponent at a moment she chose.
Timed so that brexit negotiations are round the corner, and a sizable amount of people would want consistency rather than a sudden change.
When the press smeared him every chance they got, including the disgraceful headlines on polling day.
With the rich pumping money into the Tory campaign to the tune of tens of thousands per hour.
When nobody gave him a chance.
2,227 votes away. And some constituencies unlocked from a century of conservative rule. The highest youth turnout in recent times. 600,000 members in the Labour party. People inspired in politics again, believing in a politician (!!!).
No, it wasn't a win but it sure as hell feels like one.
This. We get that it wasn't a win, but Labour turned an expected demolition into coming within a whisker of forming a government. And prevented a genuinely nasty Tory party (dementia tax, remove free school meals, Naylor report and a hideous soundbite about tearing up human rights) from a projected landslide win. And to clear up. This was not about negotiating a Brexit deal. May will have to sit down and make an agreement with her 27 ex partners who will team up against the UK. And if she'd won a 90+ majority, that would have been the same. If she thinks making no deal will help the UK, she needs help. When trade dries up, the Europeans will cover for the UK being out of the loop and trade with each other. The UK will stagnate. This election was called to satisfy her hubris and arrogance. She wanted a bigger majority and to clobber Labour, and the voters knew it. That's twice the Tories have plunged the UK into turmoil by ruling purely to help the Tory party. First the referendum. Now an unnecessary election. Selfish Tories are words that go together so well. And having moaned that Corbyn for being a terrorist associate, they are now preparing to team up with a party with terrorist links, as well as offering policies and ideas that would have looked bizarre in 1915.
Ok, look, I get it, we can make references to the Tories scaremongering about Corbyn and the IRA because they have jumped into bed with the DUP everyday until May resigns.
All a complete mess, but I'm not sure what the alternative is or what other decision they or another party could make,
If labour tried to form a government to get a majority they would need to have every other party and independent onside including the DUP, that would never happen.
Shame the lib gems wouldn't do it again, thought at times they brought a bit of level to the Conservatives.
I think Corbyn has exceeded expectstions, but there are still elements to him and his policies and team which means some will never touch him, despite May running a disasterous campaign.
How far Labour can extend their vote on that basis, and with the SNP strong in Scotland is the question. My take on it is they have massively over achieved as it stands, although in the circumstances that is a substantial achievement perhaps by inspiring the youth vote and re energising the left.
To get any further, I don't think nationalisation is the problem although funding it might be. I think they will still need to capture more of the centre in any next election and I'm not sure they can because it hangs on Corbyns leftist record, and defence policy. Abbot needs to go and Labours centre/right needs to be brought back in to the fold. I suspect most of those changes needed would be impossible however, and those made so far are probably the limit.
Brexit is clearly still having an influence and UKIP, and most importantly the majority of their supporters who we assume are hardline Brexit, have been absorbed by the Tories.
As for Brexit itself, perhaps May can carry on for a bit and negotiate a tough deal on how much we owe, and gain some credo.
The more controversial deal that follows might be a job for another government which follows that. May could well pull the plug after achieving a minor 'victory' or at least try and spin it that way.
Other policy will be largely hamstrung, and Mays gov will avoid controversy, perhaps focussing on Brexit.
It's going to be an interesting period to say the least.
Shami Chakrabarti just said on Question Time that Jeremy Corbyn won the election !
There are far too many fantasists about. (sorry fantasists no offence intended).
And the other lady just called May a robot and Corbyn a clown! Why is it I always seem to agree with whoever isn't a politician......
What the arrogant daily mail reporter - you must be so proud agreeing with her.
We know how many seats Corbyn got, just because we are saying he has won from the undertsanding we have what as happened, I can't see why others are so bothered about it? If you need an explanation, this will be my last because a closed mind can't grasp simple facts - but here goes. At the start of this election there were question marks about Corbyn's position, was he a leader, can Labour survive. It is after all the reason May called the election.
The tories had a major bounce at the expense of UKIP and increased their percentage share - that part of May's calculations were correct. But in the space of 7 weeks, we have found a leader. The more people that just read the crap that is thrown at him and don't study the facts, the less they will understand. An unelectable leader of a dying party at war with itself 7 weeks ago - 20 to 25 points behind in teh polls and the local election results backed this up.
7 Weeks later, the dying party is vibrant - no longer at war with itself. It has found an inspirational leader and broken all the old rules. The young have started to find their voice and they like it. The genie can not be put back in the bottle- thinking about this as just another election is missing the underlying message. The Conservative party is now the party atr war - the coming weeks and months will show this. Kensington and Chelsea voted Labour for the first time ever.Kensington and Chelsea. Victory is the transformation in both parties and that is why we feel like we have won.
Please feel free to disagree, but understand why and if we are proven wrong - so be it. But it isn't rocket science really.
@NornIrishAddick what's your take on the impact of May getting into bed with the DUP around the operation of the Stormont Executive? I was chatting to a colleague from NI whose opinion was that direct links between Westminister and the DUP is not going to be at all helpful to the whole power sharing process and puts the progress achieved over the last 20 years at risk? Is she being too alarmist or is this a real risk?
Comments
It is May that called the election and is now not in a majority. Corbyn is saying well we're not in a majority either, he also says to May 'you go first'.
Corbyn is highlighting the circumstances that May brought about, two large but minority parties, but as the Tories are the largest minority they're entitled to do a Queen's speech. It might fail, there might then be a Labour Queen's speech, that might fail too. It is the logical process to follow. Corbyn is not saying he is more entitled than May, but in the queue which presumably has the Greens at the back. If Caroline Lucas got enough backing then she could form the next government.
We are faced with a very different sort of Tory as the default. A sort of rapacious soulless bastard who thrives on hatred and positively relishes authoritarianism. Who disdains whimsy or even intellect; who frames everything as a fight and who never, ever chills out. Who embraces the alt-right, for fuck's sake.
Labour now have some principled politicians with good social-democratic aims and approachable demeanours. Not many, but a few. One is leader. It's almost enough.
Can the Tories please put forward some proper Tory politicians too? It's getting boring.
Followed by Federer crashing out in the next round!
Removal of all hereditary peers (obviously).
It may go so way to reducing tactical voting too if the lords has greater powers of scrutiny.
This close after a snap election called by his opponent at a moment she chose.
Timed so that brexit negotiations are round the corner, and a sizable amount of people would want consistency rather than a sudden change.
When the press smeared him every chance they got, including the disgraceful headlines on polling day.
With the rich pumping money into the Tory campaign to the tune of tens of thousands per hour.
When nobody gave him a chance.
2,227 votes away. And some constituencies unlocked from a century of conservative rule. The highest youth turnout in recent times. 600,000 members in the Labour party. People inspired in politics again, believing in a politician (!!!).
No, it wasn't a win but it sure as hell feels like one.
And to clear up. This was not about negotiating a Brexit deal. May will have to sit down and make an agreement with her 27 ex partners who will team up against the UK. And if she'd won a 90+ majority, that would have been the same. If she thinks making no deal will help the UK, she needs help. When trade dries up, the Europeans will cover for the UK being out of the loop and trade with each other. The UK will stagnate.
This election was called to satisfy her hubris and arrogance. She wanted a bigger majority and to clobber Labour, and the voters knew it. That's twice the Tories have plunged the UK into turmoil by ruling purely to help the Tory party. First the referendum. Now an unnecessary election. Selfish Tories are words that go together so well. And having moaned that Corbyn for being a terrorist associate, they are now preparing to team up with a party with terrorist links, as well as offering policies and ideas that would have looked bizarre in 1915.
believing in God I mean.
I just believe he exclusively takes the form of a man in a red shirt scoring a hat trick.
irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/theresa-may-joins-just-about-managing-classes-452136.html
If labour tried to form a government to get a majority they would need to have every other party and independent onside including the DUP, that would never happen.
Shame the lib gems wouldn't do it again, thought at times they brought a bit of level to the Conservatives.
Reporter to Theresa May:
'Prime Mininster, any comment on the result of the election?'
Theresa May:
'What election?'.
How far Labour can extend their vote on that basis, and with the SNP strong in Scotland is the question. My take on it is they have massively over achieved as it stands, although in the circumstances that is a substantial achievement perhaps by inspiring the youth vote and re energising the left.
To get any further, I don't think nationalisation is the problem although funding it might be. I think they will still need to capture more of the centre in any next election and I'm not sure they can because it hangs on Corbyns leftist record, and defence policy. Abbot needs to go and Labours centre/right needs to be brought back in to the fold. I suspect most of those changes needed would be impossible however, and those made so far are probably the limit.
Brexit is clearly still having an influence and UKIP, and most importantly the majority of their supporters who we assume are hardline Brexit, have been absorbed by the Tories.
As for Brexit itself, perhaps May can carry on for a bit and negotiate a tough deal on how much we owe, and gain some credo.
The more controversial deal that follows might be a job for another government which follows that. May could well pull the plug after achieving a minor 'victory' or at least try and spin it that way.
Other policy will be largely hamstrung, and Mays gov will avoid controversy, perhaps focussing on Brexit.
It's going to be an interesting period to say the least.
We know how many seats Corbyn got, just because we are saying he has won from the undertsanding we have what as happened, I can't see why others are so bothered about it? If you need an explanation, this will be my last because a closed mind can't grasp simple facts - but here goes. At the start of this election there were question marks about Corbyn's position, was he a leader, can Labour survive. It is after all the reason May called the election.
The tories had a major bounce at the expense of UKIP and increased their percentage share - that part of May's calculations were correct. But in the space of 7 weeks, we have found a leader. The more people that just read the crap that is thrown at him and don't study the facts, the less they will understand. An unelectable leader of a dying party at war with itself 7 weeks ago - 20 to 25 points behind in teh polls and the local election results backed this up.
7 Weeks later, the dying party is vibrant - no longer at war with itself. It has found an inspirational leader and broken all the old rules. The young have started to find their voice and they like it. The genie can not be put back in the bottle- thinking about this as just another election is missing the underlying message. The Conservative party is now the party atr war - the coming weeks and months will show this. Kensington and Chelsea voted Labour for the first time ever.Kensington and Chelsea. Victory is the transformation in both parties and that is why we feel like we have won.
Please feel free to disagree, but understand why and if we are proven wrong - so be it. But it isn't rocket science really.
As I said above the key here is whether we have reached a plateau for Corbyn (great achievement as it was) or not.