Ok this is my take on student fees at university. I may well be completely wrong and if I am I look forward to the reason why. I truly believe that every child in the UK regardless of background deserves a free education from infancy up to the age of 18.
Once you have turned 18 you are an adult and should be expected to pay your own way in the world. I would heavily subsidise university fees for people studying to be a Doctor or a Dentist or other professions that we all rely on. But for students who are studying some of the ridiculous subjects that I have heard of why shouldn't they pay for their own tuition. Why should young school leavers working in low paid manual jobs be expected to pay tax towards students fees.
I'm wondering if this might be some sort of compromise in the near future:
-if, after leaving Uni, you take a job in the public sector ie teacher, nurse, you'll get a level of student debt forgiveness based on how long you stay in the public sector
Could be more easily "justified" to today's electorate than just free tuition for all. You're doing a job within a public sector anyway, the debt forgiveness is just a bonus on top as a thank you from the government.
It would then potentially encourage the best kids to consider public sector work over private. Thus, a knock on effect is that private sector jobs would more regularly offer similar debt forgiveness deals to attract those students back.
Ok this is my take on student fees at university. I may well be completely wrong and if I am I look forward to the reason why. I truly believe that every child in the UK regardless of background deserves a free education from infancy up to the age of 18.
Once you have turned 18 you are an adult and should be expected to pay your own way in the world. I would heavily subsidise university fees for people studying to be a Doctor or a Dentist or other professions that we all rely on. But for students who are studying some of the ridiculous subjects that I have heard of why shouldn't they pay for their own tuition. Why should young school leavers working in low paid manual jobs be expected to pay tax towards students fees.
I have highlighted one part of what you have written for your consideration. Imagine you are a child in the care of the local authority, in Greenwich for example. You have a modest level of education and no savings as you have had no income. Then you turn 21 and like a prisoner released from jail you are turned out on to the street. How would you go about paying your way in the world at that moment? You have no family, no home, no money and no income. You may even have a disability. What provision do you think is out there?
A weak government clawing on to power in an economy that isn't thriving - do you think that increases or decreases popularity? We have to remember that the split with Labour was 41% to 43% and that anti Conservative parties had more voters. But the Conservatives are terrified of another election now so they don't see any other option of trying to cling on which weakens them. They are sort of hoping something good happens for them or something bad happens to Labour.
It was calculated that the difference between a Labour Government and a Tory one was around 2k votes - that is the fine margin facing the Tories!
And anti labour had even more.
Great post @Grapevine49 sums it up, divided we stand divided we fall ........
Anti conservative is more united than anti Labour. There would be no shortage of parties willing to support Labour keep out the Tories if it were possible. But it is the bigger picture that needs looking at. A big thing for me was the singlemarket - or rather tariff free trading with Europe - My company deals with Europe and I know how difficult it is to deal with non EU countires like China - the people who say otherwise haven't got the experience or knowledge. We have! We have tried it with Brexit in mind.
Now that a hard Brexit looks impossible, I am more than happy for a fataly wounded Tory party to negotiate the soft one. What saddens me is the social justice that was so closemay have to wait 6 months to a couple of years - but we have to be patient and appreciate that 7 weeks ago it looked impossible, now it looks very likely to come.
Not sure how you can say there is anti Conservative than Anti Labour out of the 650 MP's.
As it stands add up the seats for Labour, SNP, LD, PC, GRN & IND and you still have less seats than the tories alone hold (315 v 318), not that I like it but if DUP are 'conservative' then add them in and it's 328 v 315 - so don't see the numbers you see.
Ok this is my take on student fees at university. I may well be completely wrong and if I am I look forward to the reason why. I truly believe that every child in the UK regardless of background deserves a free education from infancy up to the age of 18.
Once you have turned 18 you are an adult and should be expected to pay your own way in the world. I would heavily subsidise university fees for people studying to be a Doctor or a Dentist or other professions that we all rely on. But for students who are studying some of the ridiculous subjects that I have heard of why shouldn't they pay for their own tuition. Why should young school leavers working in low paid manual jobs be expected to pay tax towards students fees.
I have highlighted one part of what you have written for your consideration. Imagine you are a child in the care of the local authority, in Greenwich for example. You have a modest level of education and no savings as you have had no income. Then you turn 21 and like a prisoner released from jail you are turned out on to the street. How would you go about paying your way in the world at that moment? You have no family, no home, no money and no income. You may even have a disability. What provision do you think is out there?
Well put Seth you have just given another example of someone who should receive a decent subsidy. I am sure there are many more which is why I asked the question. But for every student who should be subsidised there are probably many who shouldn't
A weak government clawing on to power in an economy that isn't thriving - do you think that increases or decreases popularity? We have to remember that the split with Labour was 41% to 43% and that anti Conservative parties had more voters. But the Conservatives are terrified of another election now so they don't see any other option of trying to cling on which weakens them. They are sort of hoping something good happens for them or something bad happens to Labour.
It was calculated that the difference between a Labour Government and a Tory one was around 2k votes - that is the fine margin facing the Tories!
And anti labour had even more.
Great post @Grapevine49 sums it up, divided we stand divided we fall ........
Anti conservative is more united than anti Labour. There would be no shortage of parties willing to support Labour keep out the Tories if it were possible. But it is the bigger picture that needs looking at. A big thing for me was the singlemarket - or rather tariff free trading with Europe - My company deals with Europe and I know how difficult it is to deal with non EU countires like China - the people who say otherwise haven't got the experience or knowledge. We have! We have tried it with Brexit in mind.
Now that a hard Brexit looks impossible, I am more than happy for a fataly wounded Tory party to negotiate the soft one. What saddens me is the social justice that was so closemay have to wait 6 months to a couple of years - but we have to be patient and appreciate that 7 weeks ago it looked impossible, now it looks very likely to come.
Not sure how you can say there is anti Conservative than Anti Labour out of the 650 MP's.
As it stands add up the seats for Labour, SNP, LD, PC, GRN & IND and you still have less seats than the tories alone hold (315 v 318), not that I like it but if DUP are 'conservative' then add them in and it's 328 v 315 - so don't see the numbers you see.
A weak government clawing on to power in an economy that isn't thriving - do you think that increases or decreases popularity? We have to remember that the split with Labour was 41% to 43% and that anti Conservative parties had more voters. But the Conservatives are terrified of another election now so they don't see any other option of trying to cling on which weakens them. They are sort of hoping something good happens for them or something bad happens to Labour.
It was calculated that the difference between a Labour Government and a Tory one was around 2k votes - that is the fine margin facing the Tories!
And anti labour had even more.
Great post @Grapevine49 sums it up, divided we stand divided we fall ........
Anti conservative is more united than anti Labour. There would be no shortage of parties willing to support Labour keep out the Tories if it were possible. But it is the bigger picture that needs looking at. A big thing for me was the singlemarket - or rather tariff free trading with Europe - My company deals with Europe and I know how difficult it is to deal with non EU countires like China - the people who say otherwise haven't got the experience or knowledge. We have! We have tried it with Brexit in mind.
Now that a hard Brexit looks impossible, I am more than happy for a fataly wounded Tory party to negotiate the soft one. What saddens me is the social justice that was so closemay have to wait 6 months to a couple of years - but we have to be patient and appreciate that 7 weeks ago it looked impossible, now it looks very likely to come.
Not sure how you can say there is anti Conservative than Anti Labour out of the 650 MP's.
As it stands add up the seats for Labour, SNP, LD, PC, GRN & IND and you still have less seats than the tories alone hold (315 v 318), not that I like it but if DUP are 'conservative' then add them in and it's 328 v 315 - so don't see the numbers you see.
I was talking about votes - I thought that was obvious.
As a catholic child born in the 80s and having grown up hearing of IRA atttociites etc, I'm ashamed to say I am absolutely ignorant to what has gone on in Nothern Ireland in my lifetime.
All I've picked up from the DUP coming into play so far is that they are a Protestant group who back NI remaining part of the UK.
I genuinely don't have a grip on any of it. Sinn Fein, the IRA, marching orange men etc. It baffles me and I wouldn't even know where to start to get my head round it. Can anyone summarise it if possible. I would like to understand a bit more about it now with this DUP thing
I won't try to explain Irish history, but essentially it has been a battle of two cultures and two versions of the same religion, and powerful v powerless. One side wants the island of Ireland to be united as one country, the other side wants all or part of the island to be part of the UK. People want those things badly enough, that in the past criminals have been guilty of horrendous bloodshed to do what they think is furthering their aims. It is a pretty deep rift, and it goes back hundreds of years.
A weak government clawing on to power in an economy that isn't thriving - do you think that increases or decreases popularity? We have to remember that the split with Labour was 41% to 43% and that anti Conservative parties had more voters. But the Conservatives are terrified of another election now so they don't see any other option of trying to cling on which weakens them. They are sort of hoping something good happens for them or something bad happens to Labour.
It was calculated that the difference between a Labour Government and a Tory one was around 2k votes - that is the fine margin facing the Tories!
And anti labour had even more.
Great post @Grapevine49 sums it up, divided we stand divided we fall ........
Anti conservative is more united than anti Labour. There would be no shortage of parties willing to support Labour keep out the Tories if it were possible. But it is the bigger picture that needs looking at. A big thing for me was the singlemarket - or rather tariff free trading with Europe - My company deals with Europe and I know how difficult it is to deal with non EU countires like China - the people who say otherwise haven't got the experience or knowledge. We have! We have tried it with Brexit in mind.
Now that a hard Brexit looks impossible, I am more than happy for a fataly wounded Tory party to negotiate the soft one. What saddens me is the social justice that was so closemay have to wait 6 months to a couple of years - but we have to be patient and appreciate that 7 weeks ago it looked impossible, now it looks very likely to come.
Not sure how you can say there is anti Conservative than Anti Labour out of the 650 MP's.
As it stands add up the seats for Labour, SNP, LD, PC, GRN & IND and you still have less seats than the tories alone hold (315 v 318), not that I like it but if DUP are 'conservative' then add them in and it's 328 v 315 - so don't see the numbers you see.
A weak government clawing on to power in an economy that isn't thriving - do you think that increases or decreases popularity? We have to remember that the split with Labour was 41% to 43% and that anti Conservative parties had more voters. But the Conservatives are terrified of another election now so they don't see any other option of trying to cling on which weakens them. They are sort of hoping something good happens for them or something bad happens to Labour.
It was calculated that the difference between a Labour Government and a Tory one was around 2k votes - that is the fine margin facing the Tories!
And anti labour had even more.
Great post @Grapevine49 sums it up, divided we stand divided we fall ........
Anti conservative is more united than anti Labour. There would be no shortage of parties willing to support Labour keep out the Tories if it were possible. But it is the bigger picture that needs looking at. A big thing for me was the singlemarket - or rather tariff free trading with Europe - My company deals with Europe and I know how difficult it is to deal with non EU countires like China - the people who say otherwise haven't got the experience or knowledge. We have! We have tried it with Brexit in mind.
Now that a hard Brexit looks impossible, I am more than happy for a fataly wounded Tory party to negotiate the soft one. What saddens me is the social justice that was so closemay have to wait 6 months to a couple of years - but we have to be patient and appreciate that 7 weeks ago it looked impossible, now it looks very likely to come.
Not sure how you can say there is anti Conservative than Anti Labour out of the 650 MP's.
As it stands add up the seats for Labour, SNP, LD, PC, GRN & IND and you still have less seats than the tories alone hold (315 v 318), not that I like it but if DUP are 'conservative' then add them in and it's 328 v 315 - so don't see the numbers you see.
I was talking about votes - I thought that was obvious.
Fair enough, but then more people didn't vote for Labour than didn't vote for the conservatives so not sure that hold water at all unless you are assuming a vote for anything other than conservatives is anti conservative which would be ludicrous. Your comment "Anti conservative is more united than anti Labour" was followed by saying no shortage of parties willing to support Labour to keep the Tories out.......
In other news, Anne Marie Waters is running for the UKIP leadership...
Never heard of her? She's written for Breitbart.
She stood in Lewisham East in 2015 I believe. I remember her as scary and articulate when I attended her hustings. Her main thing was about islam i think.
He has been non stop wheedling since last summer, no surprise he has wormed his way back. His speciality is protecting wheat farmers who fall victim to young vandals.
A weak government clawing on to power in an economy that isn't thriving - do you think that increases or decreases popularity? We have to remember that the split with Labour was 41% to 43% and that anti Conservative parties had more voters. But the Conservatives are terrified of another election now so they don't see any other option of trying to cling on which weakens them. They are sort of hoping something good happens for them or something bad happens to Labour.
It was calculated that the difference between a Labour Government and a Tory one was around 2k votes - that is the fine margin facing the Tories!
And anti labour had even more.
Great post @Grapevine49 sums it up, divided we stand divided we fall ........
Anti conservative is more united than anti Labour. There would be no shortage of parties willing to support Labour keep out the Tories if it were possible. But it is the bigger picture that needs looking at. A big thing for me was the singlemarket - or rather tariff free trading with Europe - My company deals with Europe and I know how difficult it is to deal with non EU countires like China - the people who say otherwise haven't got the experience or knowledge. We have! We have tried it with Brexit in mind.
Now that a hard Brexit looks impossible, I am more than happy for a fataly wounded Tory party to negotiate the soft one. What saddens me is the social justice that was so closemay have to wait 6 months to a couple of years - but we have to be patient and appreciate that 7 weeks ago it looked impossible, now it looks very likely to come.
Not sure how you can say there is anti Conservative than Anti Labour out of the 650 MP's.
As it stands add up the seats for Labour, SNP, LD, PC, GRN & IND and you still have less seats than the tories alone hold (315 v 318), not that I like it but if DUP are 'conservative' then add them in and it's 328 v 315 - so don't see the numbers you see.
A weak government clawing on to power in an economy that isn't thriving - do you think that increases or decreases popularity? We have to remember that the split with Labour was 41% to 43% and that anti Conservative parties had more voters. But the Conservatives are terrified of another election now so they don't see any other option of trying to cling on which weakens them. They are sort of hoping something good happens for them or something bad happens to Labour.
It was calculated that the difference between a Labour Government and a Tory one was around 2k votes - that is the fine margin facing the Tories!
And anti labour had even more.
Great post @Grapevine49 sums it up, divided we stand divided we fall ........
Anti conservative is more united than anti Labour. There would be no shortage of parties willing to support Labour keep out the Tories if it were possible. But it is the bigger picture that needs looking at. A big thing for me was the singlemarket - or rather tariff free trading with Europe - My company deals with Europe and I know how difficult it is to deal with non EU countires like China - the people who say otherwise haven't got the experience or knowledge. We have! We have tried it with Brexit in mind.
Now that a hard Brexit looks impossible, I am more than happy for a fataly wounded Tory party to negotiate the soft one. What saddens me is the social justice that was so closemay have to wait 6 months to a couple of years - but we have to be patient and appreciate that 7 weeks ago it looked impossible, now it looks very likely to come.
Not sure how you can say there is anti Conservative than Anti Labour out of the 650 MP's.
As it stands add up the seats for Labour, SNP, LD, PC, GRN & IND and you still have less seats than the tories alone hold (315 v 318), not that I like it but if DUP are 'conservative' then add them in and it's 328 v 315 - so don't see the numbers you see.
I was talking about votes - I thought that was obvious.
Fair enough, but then more people didn't vote for Labour than didn't vote for the conservatives so not sure that hold water at all unless you are assuming a vote for anything other than conservatives is anti conservative which would be ludicrous. Your comment "Anti conservative is more united than anti Labour" was followed by saying no shortage of parties willing to support Labour to keep the Tories out.......
Fair enough - it is significant that the govenment is minority in terms of support though. My point was around the damage this is going to do to it - especially with May at the helm. Yes, I meant that every other party would want to keep Tories out, I do have an o'level in maths and run a company!
Received a nice message from our leader this morning
When Theresa May called a General Election, she underestimated the Labour Party and she underestimated you, Simon. Now, she is without the majority she felt certain of, without the mandate she demanded, and with her government in conflict and chaos.
Our movement showed its power, delivering a message of hope across the country — and the country responded.
Thank you. Thank you for the support and strength you have shown throughout the campaign. I hope you have taken a moment to feel proud — and are as energised by the result as I am.
Because now we can build on this result. Together we can unite our country and bring about the change Britain needs and demands. Together, let's continue to fight for a better Britain.
A weak government clawing on to power in an economy that isn't thriving - do you think that increases or decreases popularity? We have to remember that the split with Labour was 41% to 43% and that anti Conservative parties had more voters. But the Conservatives are terrified of another election now so they don't see any other option of trying to cling on which weakens them. They are sort of hoping something good happens for them or something bad happens to Labour.
It was calculated that the difference between a Labour Government and a Tory one was around 2k votes - that is the fine margin facing the Tories!
And anti labour had even more.
Great post @Grapevine49 sums it up, divided we stand divided we fall ........
Anti conservative is more united than anti Labour. There would be no shortage of parties willing to support Labour keep out the Tories if it were possible. But it is the bigger picture that needs looking at. A big thing for me was the singlemarket - or rather tariff free trading with Europe - My company deals with Europe and I know how difficult it is to deal with non EU countires like China - the people who say otherwise haven't got the experience or knowledge. We have! We have tried it with Brexit in mind.
Now that a hard Brexit looks impossible, I am more than happy for a fataly wounded Tory party to negotiate the soft one. What saddens me is the social justice that was so closemay have to wait 6 months to a couple of years - but we have to be patient and appreciate that 7 weeks ago it looked impossible, now it looks very likely to come.
Not sure how you can say there is anti Conservative than Anti Labour out of the 650 MP's.
As it stands add up the seats for Labour, SNP, LD, PC, GRN & IND and you still have less seats than the tories alone hold (315 v 318), not that I like it but if DUP are 'conservative' then add them in and it's 328 v 315 - so don't see the numbers you see.
A weak government clawing on to power in an economy that isn't thriving - do you think that increases or decreases popularity? We have to remember that the split with Labour was 41% to 43% and that anti Conservative parties had more voters. But the Conservatives are terrified of another election now so they don't see any other option of trying to cling on which weakens them. They are sort of hoping something good happens for them or something bad happens to Labour.
It was calculated that the difference between a Labour Government and a Tory one was around 2k votes - that is the fine margin facing the Tories!
And anti labour had even more.
Great post @Grapevine49 sums it up, divided we stand divided we fall ........
Anti conservative is more united than anti Labour. There would be no shortage of parties willing to support Labour keep out the Tories if it were possible. But it is the bigger picture that needs looking at. A big thing for me was the singlemarket - or rather tariff free trading with Europe - My company deals with Europe and I know how difficult it is to deal with non EU countires like China - the people who say otherwise haven't got the experience or knowledge. We have! We have tried it with Brexit in mind.
Now that a hard Brexit looks impossible, I am more than happy for a fataly wounded Tory party to negotiate the soft one. What saddens me is the social justice that was so closemay have to wait 6 months to a couple of years - but we have to be patient and appreciate that 7 weeks ago it looked impossible, now it looks very likely to come.
Not sure how you can say there is anti Conservative than Anti Labour out of the 650 MP's.
As it stands add up the seats for Labour, SNP, LD, PC, GRN & IND and you still have less seats than the tories alone hold (315 v 318), not that I like it but if DUP are 'conservative' then add them in and it's 328 v 315 - so don't see the numbers you see.
I was talking about votes - I thought that was obvious.
Fair enough, but then more people didn't vote for Labour than didn't vote for the conservatives so not sure that hold water at all unless you are assuming a vote for anything other than conservatives is anti conservative which would be ludicrous. Your comment "Anti conservative is more united than anti Labour" was followed by saying no shortage of parties willing to support Labour to keep the Tories out.......
Fair enough - it is significant that the govenment is minority in terms of support though. My point was around the damage this is going to do to it - especially with May at the helm. Yes, I meant that every other party would want to keep Tories out, I do have an o'level in maths and run a company!
It's only minority based on seats, not votes, can't recall the last time a party had more than 50% of the vote, probably never in my lifetime.
Conservatives (and Labour) have a greater % of votes as well as number of votes than in 2015. The difference being this time 82.5% of voters went with either Conservative or Labour, 2015 despite Conservatives greater result between them and labour was only 67.3% so you could argue Conservatives increasing their share of an increased vote from 36.9% to 42.4% and getting the greatest number means the electorate has given them an even greater mandate
A weak government clawing on to power in an economy that isn't thriving - do you think that increases or decreases popularity? We have to remember that the split with Labour was 41% to 43% and that anti Conservative parties had more voters. But the Conservatives are terrified of another election now so they don't see any other option of trying to cling on which weakens them. They are sort of hoping something good happens for them or something bad happens to Labour.
It was calculated that the difference between a Labour Government and a Tory one was around 2k votes - that is the fine margin facing the Tories!
And anti labour had even more.
Great post @Grapevine49 sums it up, divided we stand divided we fall ........
Anti conservative is more united than anti Labour. There would be no shortage of parties willing to support Labour keep out the Tories if it were possible. But it is the bigger picture that needs looking at. A big thing for me was the singlemarket - or rather tariff free trading with Europe - My company deals with Europe and I know how difficult it is to deal with non EU countires like China - the people who say otherwise haven't got the experience or knowledge. We have! We have tried it with Brexit in mind.
Now that a hard Brexit looks impossible, I am more than happy for a fataly wounded Tory party to negotiate the soft one. What saddens me is the social justice that was so closemay have to wait 6 months to a couple of years - but we have to be patient and appreciate that 7 weeks ago it looked impossible, now it looks very likely to come.
Not sure how you can say there is anti Conservative than Anti Labour out of the 650 MP's.
As it stands add up the seats for Labour, SNP, LD, PC, GRN & IND and you still have less seats than the tories alone hold (315 v 318), not that I like it but if DUP are 'conservative' then add them in and it's 328 v 315 - so don't see the numbers you see.
A weak government clawing on to power in an economy that isn't thriving - do you think that increases or decreases popularity? We have to remember that the split with Labour was 41% to 43% and that anti Conservative parties had more voters. But the Conservatives are terrified of another election now so they don't see any other option of trying to cling on which weakens them. They are sort of hoping something good happens for them or something bad happens to Labour.
It was calculated that the difference between a Labour Government and a Tory one was around 2k votes - that is the fine margin facing the Tories!
And anti labour had even more.
Great post @Grapevine49 sums it up, divided we stand divided we fall ........
Anti conservative is more united than anti Labour. There would be no shortage of parties willing to support Labour keep out the Tories if it were possible. But it is the bigger picture that needs looking at. A big thing for me was the singlemarket - or rather tariff free trading with Europe - My company deals with Europe and I know how difficult it is to deal with non EU countires like China - the people who say otherwise haven't got the experience or knowledge. We have! We have tried it with Brexit in mind.
Now that a hard Brexit looks impossible, I am more than happy for a fataly wounded Tory party to negotiate the soft one. What saddens me is the social justice that was so closemay have to wait 6 months to a couple of years - but we have to be patient and appreciate that 7 weeks ago it looked impossible, now it looks very likely to come.
Not sure how you can say there is anti Conservative than Anti Labour out of the 650 MP's.
As it stands add up the seats for Labour, SNP, LD, PC, GRN & IND and you still have less seats than the tories alone hold (315 v 318), not that I like it but if DUP are 'conservative' then add them in and it's 328 v 315 - so don't see the numbers you see.
I was talking about votes - I thought that was obvious.
Fair enough, but then more people didn't vote for Labour than didn't vote for the conservatives so not sure that hold water at all unless you are assuming a vote for anything other than conservatives is anti conservative which would be ludicrous. Your comment "Anti conservative is more united than anti Labour" was followed by saying no shortage of parties willing to support Labour to keep the Tories out.......
Fair enough - it is significant that the govenment is minority in terms of support though. My point was around the damage this is going to do to it - especially with May at the helm. Yes, I meant that every other party would want to keep Tories out, I do have an o'level in maths and run a company!
It's only minority based on seats, not votes, can't recall the last time a party had more than 50% of the vote, probably never in my lifetime.
Conservatives (and Labour) have a greater % of votes as well as number of votes than in 2015. The difference being this time 82.5% of voters went with either Conservative or Labour, 2015 despite Conservatives greater result between them and labour was only 67.3% so you could argue Conservatives increasing their share of an increased vote from 36.9% to 42.4% and getting the greatest number means the electorate has given them an even greater mandate
Well it is good that we can all argue something. I am still elated about the result and full of hope for the future. If you are too, I don't begrudge it. You are wasting your time trying to convince me why I shouldn't be happy and the Tories struggling on for a bit is only helping my mood. I would prefer we could make people's lives better now, but you have to be realistic and patient. Social justice will be furthered more effectively by letting the Tories hang themselves.
A weak government clawing on to power in an economy that isn't thriving - do you think that increases or decreases popularity? We have to remember that the split with Labour was 41% to 43% and that anti Conservative parties had more voters. But the Conservatives are terrified of another election now so they don't see any other option of trying to cling on which weakens them. They are sort of hoping something good happens for them or something bad happens to Labour.
It was calculated that the difference between a Labour Government and a Tory one was around 2k votes - that is the fine margin facing the Tories!
And anti labour had even more.
Great post @Grapevine49 sums it up, divided we stand divided we fall ........
Anti conservative is more united than anti Labour. There would be no shortage of parties willing to support Labour keep out the Tories if it were possible. But it is the bigger picture that needs looking at. A big thing for me was the singlemarket - or rather tariff free trading with Europe - My company deals with Europe and I know how difficult it is to deal with non EU countires like China - the people who say otherwise haven't got the experience or knowledge. We have! We have tried it with Brexit in mind.
Now that a hard Brexit looks impossible, I am more than happy for a fataly wounded Tory party to negotiate the soft one. What saddens me is the social justice that was so closemay have to wait 6 months to a couple of years - but we have to be patient and appreciate that 7 weeks ago it looked impossible, now it looks very likely to come.
Not sure how you can say there is anti Conservative than Anti Labour out of the 650 MP's.
As it stands add up the seats for Labour, SNP, LD, PC, GRN & IND and you still have less seats than the tories alone hold (315 v 318), not that I like it but if DUP are 'conservative' then add them in and it's 328 v 315 - so don't see the numbers you see.
A weak government clawing on to power in an economy that isn't thriving - do you think that increases or decreases popularity? We have to remember that the split with Labour was 41% to 43% and that anti Conservative parties had more voters. But the Conservatives are terrified of another election now so they don't see any other option of trying to cling on which weakens them. They are sort of hoping something good happens for them or something bad happens to Labour.
It was calculated that the difference between a Labour Government and a Tory one was around 2k votes - that is the fine margin facing the Tories!
And anti labour had even more.
Great post @Grapevine49 sums it up, divided we stand divided we fall ........
Anti conservative is more united than anti Labour. There would be no shortage of parties willing to support Labour keep out the Tories if it were possible. But it is the bigger picture that needs looking at. A big thing for me was the singlemarket - or rather tariff free trading with Europe - My company deals with Europe and I know how difficult it is to deal with non EU countires like China - the people who say otherwise haven't got the experience or knowledge. We have! We have tried it with Brexit in mind.
Now that a hard Brexit looks impossible, I am more than happy for a fataly wounded Tory party to negotiate the soft one. What saddens me is the social justice that was so closemay have to wait 6 months to a couple of years - but we have to be patient and appreciate that 7 weeks ago it looked impossible, now it looks very likely to come.
Not sure how you can say there is anti Conservative than Anti Labour out of the 650 MP's.
As it stands add up the seats for Labour, SNP, LD, PC, GRN & IND and you still have less seats than the tories alone hold (315 v 318), not that I like it but if DUP are 'conservative' then add them in and it's 328 v 315 - so don't see the numbers you see.
I was talking about votes - I thought that was obvious.
Fair enough, but then more people didn't vote for Labour than didn't vote for the conservatives so not sure that hold water at all unless you are assuming a vote for anything other than conservatives is anti conservative which would be ludicrous. Your comment "Anti conservative is more united than anti Labour" was followed by saying no shortage of parties willing to support Labour to keep the Tories out.......
Fair enough - it is significant that the govenment is minority in terms of support though. My point was around the damage this is going to do to it - especially with May at the helm. Yes, I meant that every other party would want to keep Tories out, I do have an o'level in maths and run a company!
It's only minority based on seats, not votes, can't recall the last time a party had more than 50% of the vote, probably never in my lifetime.
Conservatives (and Labour) have a greater % of votes as well as number of votes than in 2015. The difference being this time 82.5% of voters went with either Conservative or Labour, 2015 despite Conservatives greater result between them and labour was only 67.3% so you could argue Conservatives increasing their share of an increased vote from 36.9% to 42.4% and getting the greatest number means the electorate has given them an even greater mandate
Well it is good that we can all argue something. I am still elated about the result and full of hope for the future. If you are too, I don't begrudge it. You are wasting your time trying to convince me why I shouldn't be happy and the Tories struggling on for a bit is only helping my mood. I would prefer we could make people's lives better now, but you have to be realistic and patient. Social justice will be furthered more effectively by letting the Tories hang themselves.
I'm not at all happy with the result, not because the conservatives didn't win but because the situation the country now finds itself in at a very important time, and yes I blame May.
I just can't help pick up on some of the posts especially when you get Corbyn saying he'd won the mandate of the people/country, he'd won the election, step aside May as I should be prime minister....... despite the idiots in The conservative party the only thing they lost were the 13 seats.
They still got more votes than any other party They increased their share of the vote since 2015, so more of the public voted Torie than last election (as did Labour) They obtained 57 more seats than any other single party
So despite the election campaign from hell they still did 'ok' in many respects.
I wish I could explain just how lucky you are. Right now we have an Administration who is attempting to shut down Civil Rights and equal protections within the Federal Government and who will acknowledge all kinds of weird holidays but not Pride month. And we continue to have states pass anti-gay marriage laws all the time, despite the Supreme Court ruling.
Things are changing. Things have changed a lot just in the last decade. But I look forward to the day when being associated with anti-gay groups is seen as toxic. Or where 40% of LGTBQ+ people can say "I feel like both parties are for my rights but I fucking hate taxes, I'm going to run as a Conservative."
May chucked her majority away by a disastrous campaign and utter nonesense of a manifesto. That is obvious to all of us. she drove Tory voters and potential voters away and despite having the biggest vote for years, she could have had so much more.
I think that the single biggest draw for Labour was the pledge to do away with university fees and even refund fees already paid.
I understand why this would be attractive but it is economic nonesense. When the country is in so much debt, money needs to be reeled in somewhere.
In 1992 there were 984,000 full time students aged 18-24. In 2016 there were 1,870,000. As a country, we need to make sensible choices and I think that we either keep fees or reduce free uni places back to a manageable level. Extra places/courses could be made available for fees.
I guess that I will be shot down by some but if more money is to be borrowed I would much rather it go into providing more social housing, roads or hs2. In otherwords, projects I would see as an investment in our infastructure, as I would see this as better than investing in academia.
I understand the benefits of a well educated population but there are other priorities too.
Regarding the bit in bold. I thought the same but watched this programme over the weekend where they interviewed four kids from Canterbury, none of them seemed to come from a particularly privileged background, one of them seemed quite politicised the other three quite shy. They all voted Labour and three of them did not even mention tuition fees. They all said they voted Labour because the felt that somebody was listening to them and that the social media was excellent. It also came out that there was a really organised campaign to get people registered to vote, to keep them informed and then to get them to actually vote.
All of this went on under virtually all of our noses and most on here I would describe as reasonably politically savvy. Long may it continue, all of our population has to feel that the political process holds something for them.
Toby Young on Marr is a cock. He is one slimy individuál at the best of times, but he said about the election that 'all this triumphalism sticks in my craw'. Toby IT WAS MAY WHO CALLED THE ELECTION. If someone offered me out, and I held them off when they were the aggressor, would I be expected to shut up about it when all done and dusted? All this mood music that Labour should shut up about events is straight out of the 'Plebs and oiks should known their place' chapter in the Conservative handbook.
He is a cock of the highest order Seth and to think he is the son of Sir Michael Young.
Ok this is my take on student fees at university. I may well be completely wrong and if I am I look forward to the reason why. I truly believe that every child in the UK regardless of background deserves a free education from infancy up to the age of 18.
Once you have turned 18 you are an adult and should be expected to pay your own way in the world. I would heavily subsidise university fees for people studying to be a Doctor or a Dentist or other professions that we all rely on. But for students who are studying some of the ridiculous subjects that I have heard of why shouldn't they pay for their own tuition. Why should young school leavers working in low paid manual jobs be expected to pay tax towards students fees.
I have highlighted one part of what you have written for your consideration. Imagine you are a child in the care of the local authority, in Greenwich for example. You have a modest level of education and no savings as you have had no income. Then you turn 21 and like a prisoner released from jail you are turned out on to the street. How would you go about paying your way in the world at that moment? You have no family, no home, no money and no income. You may even have a disability. What provision do you think is out there?
Going slightly off on a tangent but...
How we treat children in care in this country, all of whom are there through no fault of their own, is an absolute f**king scandal.
We are a nation divided indeed. Personally I am prepared to see a personal tax increase in order to try to make things better, but not better for the established ruling class, but better for housing, public works, public services and the environment. It isn't just about those on over 80k, a figure I have never got even half way near, it isn't about big corporations either. It is about all of us who can afford it to put some money in. If that is a way of bringing the country together I am in. Not by borrowing more and more and more, but by dipping in to our considerable resources collectively.
Bet he wouldn't hsve said this on Question Time...
Haha pity. The amount of times I wish a panellist just ripped into an audience member "what the hell do you think you know about it you melt?" Great TV.
It is time to stop patting ourselves on the back - the job of bringing social justice and making our country fairer is only two thirds done and there are challenges to overcome. We now have to work to achieve the victory. Why we had a few days of celebration is that we were not even in the same city as the path to victory two months ago - now we are on and can see the end of it and somehow the Tories who were well on it have taken a wrong turn and find themselves in a similar place to where we were.
Comments
-if, after leaving Uni, you take a job in the public sector ie teacher, nurse, you'll get a level of student debt forgiveness based on how long you stay in the public sector
Could be more easily "justified" to today's electorate than just free tuition for all. You're doing a job within a public sector anyway, the debt forgiveness is just a bonus on top as a thank you from the government.
It would then potentially encourage the best kids to consider public sector work over private. Thus, a knock on effect is that private sector jobs would more regularly offer similar debt forgiveness deals to attract those students back.
Imagine you are a child in the care of the local authority, in Greenwich for example.
You have a modest level of education and no savings as you have had no income.
Then you turn 21 and like a prisoner released from jail you are turned out on to the street.
How would you go about paying your way in the world at that moment?
You have no family, no home, no money and no income.
You may even have a disability.
What provision do you think is out there?
As it stands add up the seats for Labour, SNP, LD, PC, GRN & IND and you still have less seats than the tories alone hold (315 v 318), not that I like it but if DUP are 'conservative' then add them in and it's 328 v 315 - so don't see the numbers you see.
I am sure there are many more which is why I asked the question.
But for every student who should be subsidised there are probably many who shouldn't
Never heard of her? She's written for Breitbart.
His speciality is protecting wheat farmers who fall victim to young vandals.
When Theresa May called a General Election, she underestimated the Labour Party and she underestimated you, Simon. Now, she is without the majority she felt certain of, without the mandate she demanded, and with her government in conflict and chaos.
Our movement showed its power, delivering a message of hope across the country — and the country responded.
Thank you. Thank you for the support and strength you have shown throughout the campaign. I hope you have taken a moment to feel proud — and are as energised by the result as I am.
Because now we can build on this result. Together we can unite our country and bring about the change Britain needs and demands. Together, let's continue to fight for a better Britain.
Conservatives (and Labour) have a greater % of votes as well as number of votes than in 2015. The difference being this time 82.5% of voters went with either Conservative or Labour, 2015 despite Conservatives greater result between them and labour was only 67.3% so you could argue Conservatives increasing their share of an increased vote from 36.9% to 42.4% and getting the greatest number means the electorate has given them an even greater mandate
Or indeed, any Brexit ultra on here?
I just can't help pick up on some of the posts especially when you get Corbyn saying he'd won the mandate of the people/country, he'd won the election, step aside May as I should be prime minister....... despite the idiots in The conservative party the only thing they lost were the 13 seats.
They still got more votes than any other party
They increased their share of the vote since 2015, so more of the public voted Torie than last election (as did Labour)
They obtained 57 more seats than any other single party
So despite the election campaign from hell they still did 'ok' in many respects.
Things are changing. Things have changed a lot just in the last decade. But I look forward to the day when being associated with anti-gay groups is seen as toxic. Or where 40% of LGTBQ+ people can say "I feel like both parties are for my rights but I fucking hate taxes, I'm going to run as a Conservative."
They all voted Labour and three of them did not even mention tuition fees. They all said they voted Labour because the felt that somebody was listening to them and that the social media was excellent. It also came out that there was a really organised campaign to get people registered to vote, to keep them informed and then to get them to actually vote.
All of this went on under virtually all of our noses and most on here I would describe as reasonably politically savvy. Long may it continue, all of our population has to feel that the political process holds something for them.
How we treat children in care in this country, all of whom are there through no fault of their own, is an absolute f**king scandal.
Bet he wouldn't have said this on Question Time...