The greatest lie that the Tories and the tabloids have managed to sell is that:
a) an extraordinary number of people are wilfully cheating the benefits system
b) that they cost the taxpayer a non-trivial sum of money
c) that slashing the welfare state is the best way to stop these cheats, even if a lot of people in genuine need of help from the state are either hurt, forced into unsafe situations, or die as a result of these cuts.
And the success of how well this lie is spread is that people are so open about how much they detest people who need welfare to survive.
Well I have never claimed benefits and am a self employed business man and I'm not one of these people who reckon because their parents worked hard or I work hard, it is a reason to vote Tory - the big mistake is people associate working hard and getting what you want with the Tories - it is complete tosh.
As for brexit, we were repeatedly told - look at Norway, we will stay in the single market - May has basically told us we are leaving the single market. So what beans are there to spill in relation to that important point? We are leaving because some Tories have an idealogical objection to the EU and managed to use people's prejudices against immigration as the decider when all knowledge shows EU immigrants benefit the country. As somebody who had dealings outside of this country for my business, I can tell you that it would be a disaster. That will affect you and every other working class person who has done well for themselves at some point and see voting Tory as a medal of honour to prove it!
Ironic people compare working hard to get what you deserve with the Tories when most of them inherited their wealth and are only where they are due to nepotism.
Ironic people compare working hard to get what you deserve with the Tories when most of them inherited their wealth and are only where they are due to nepotism.
On one side a tory who wants to honour the will of the British people.
On the other an IRA supporting communist.
Hmmm, this election is a toughie.
She might want to honour the will of the British people but she will fail. Have you heard or read anything (beyond Brexit means Brexit) that indicates these jokers have even half a clue as to what they're doing?
If the will of the British people as framed by the referendum is anything to go by, there should be a hard Brexit today, all EU nationals should be given three months to leave the country, provision made to receive all UK expats living in the EU in three months time, all funding in both directions should stop today, a hard steel and concrete wall should be built immediately along the 400km of the Irish land border, and any trespassers should be shot on sight. We should then immediately operate under the World Trade rules.
If you think I am being silly then: A) I believe there are some pro brexiters who will read my diatribe above and agree with every word. My description is more detailed than anything put out by any pro Brexit person. C) My description is straightforward, and you don't have to elect me on a blank cheque of raw power in order to do it.
Brexit means Brexit which means what I have described above, so all you brexiters stop being so wishy washy and get on with it as I have described.
On the other hand Corbyn is a man of peace and principle who doesn't want to vapourise children at the touch of a nuclear button, whilst Theresa May is clearly salivating at the prospect.
Hmmm, this election is a toughie.
More important than that, we need to sort out the B ) thing....
It's on the individual poster. Seth has been on here long enough to know the score.
On one side a tory who wants to honour the will of the British people.
On the other an IRA supporting communist.
Hmmm, this election is a toughie.
She might want to honour the will of the British people but she will fail. Have you heard or read anything (beyond Brexit means Brexit) that indicates these jokers have even half a clue as to what they're doing?
If the will of the British people as framed by the referendum is anything to go by, there should be a hard Brexit today, all EU nationals should be given three months to leave the country, provision made to receive all UK expats living in the EU in three months time, all funding in both directions should stop today, a hard steel and concrete wall should be built immediately along the 400km of the Irish land border, and any trespassers should be shot on sight. We should then immediately operate under the World Trade rules.
If you think I am being silly then: A) I believe there are some pro brexiters who will read my diatribe above and agree with every word. My description is more detailed than anything put out by any pro Brexit person. C) My description is straightforward, and you don't have to elect me on a blank cheque of raw power in order to do it.
Brexit means Brexit which means what I have described above, so all you brexiters stop being so wishy washy and get on with it as I have described.
On the other hand Corbyn is a man of peace and principle who doesn't want to vapourise children at the touch of a nuclear button, whilst Theresa May is clearly salivating at the prospect.
Hmmm, this election is a toughie.
More important than that, we need to sort out the B ) thing....
It's on the individual poster. Seth has been on here long enough to know the score.
Not every tory voter is a privately educated snob with a pole stuck up their arse. Some (myself included) were and still are sick to death of the way the benefit system has been abused over the years.
That's what happens when you have free health care, a over populated country and in huge amounts of debt
Yet you're you going to vote - again - for a party that has failed, spectacularly, to reduce immigration over the last seven years, whilst massively increasing the UK's level of debt.
Much like Theresa May's fiscal policy, that doesn't add up.
The level of debt has been on the up since the last recession in 08. Nothing inspires me or makes me think voting for the labour party will change this. And my reason for voting 'leave' in the EU referendum was partly for controlled immigration which we will hopefully see come into place in the next few years
We've always had control of non-EU migration, yet under the Tories, the coalition before them and the Labour government before that, non-EU immigration has continued to rise. The Tories have had all the power they need to slow or halt non-EU migration, but have continually failed to act. Why do you believe that if they win in June they will suddenly reverse this trend? All indicators are that total immigration will either continue to increase or at least stay at the same level, whether we are in the EU or not. All that will change is the sources of those immigrants.
If you think cheap eastern European labour has a downward effect on salaries, wait until it's even cheaper immigrants from Africa and Asia.
My hope is for controlled immigration and for those that come to be able to contribute and better our country. I work with a number of immigrants both EU and non EU and they are excellent tradesmen. Hardworking, knowledgeable and honest guys. They are here with their families who are also contributing to our society. I respect them and what they're doing but again there has to be a limit doesn't there? There has to be a time when we say we're full for now effectively. Whether that's EU or non EU I think there should be a procedure in place to know exactly who is coming into the country, their history and what they have to offer and I can only see one party making this a realisation
If we were full, people wouldn't be arriving to live in available housing, or taking available jobs, would they?
Also, benefits abuse has a negligible impact on the UK economy. It suits the rich c**ts who run the media to turn society's anger on this false demon though, while they and their chums hoover up your nation's assets.
I'm not saying we're full now I'm saying things need to be kept in order and a more thorough checks need to be made on people coming into this country and who are in our society. Would you leave your front door open while you was at work and not wondering who's in your house? Silly I know but same principle.
Benefit abuse may be negligible but that's a personal preference for me.
You seem angry with rich people
Regarding 'same principle', is there not a difference between one's home and the common land?
As for rich people, I have a huge problem with exploiters of any stripe, yes. Most of the rich people I work for seem OK though.
Of course there's a difference but it depends on the way you look at this country and society in general
I now understand why you're all so confused. It's because you're all mistaking me for @Fiiiiiish . I've never voted Tory or called someone a loony lefty or that the NHS would be better if it was sold to Philip Green.
I agree that immigration is good for our economy but i want to stop the people coming to the UK that cheat benefits to build their homes in eastern Europe
people that hate the UK but are happy to be put up in a lush council house and live on benefits whilst preaching hate of the way we live (ie hate preachers "Anjem Choudary" etc)
that these are cartoon villains, total outliers at best, figures embellished or created entirely by media outlets for whom a raging, fearful public means more clicks and more sales?
The greatest lie that the Tories and the tabloids have managed to sell is that:
a) an extraordinary number of people are wilfully cheating the benefits system
b) that they cost the taxpayer a non-trivial sum of money
c) that slashing the welfare state is the best way to stop these cheats, even if a lot of people in genuine need of help from the state are either hurt, forced into unsafe situations, or die as a result of these cuts.
And the success of how well this lie is spread is that people are so open about how much they detest people who need welfare to survive.
I wouldn't completely agree with this. Obviously there are benefit cheats but that's a small minority. The real beef is with the fit and able that are OK to work but don't and families with more children than they can afford.
I will be voting Tories, i grew up under a single parent family with 2 brothers living in a council house in a ruff estate but my mum always had a job and worked hard as other people (neighbours/friends) around us lived on the dole each week (majority of them seemed fine to work just chose not to and have a lot of kids instead). We didn't have a lot of money but they always seemed to have more than we did (such as material things,cars etc)
Why should i now work hard for my own family (my wife & child) for others to sit at home and i pay for them via my NI/Taxes?!
I can't say Theresa May fills me with confidence but i agree with their policies immigration, trident, benefit caps etc and at least they try to cut these on the face of things anyway
I agree that immigration is good for our economy but i want to stop the people coming to the UK that cheat benefits to build their homes in eastern Europe & people that hate the UK but are happy to be put up in a lush council house and live on benefits whilst preaching hate of the way we live (ie hate preachers "Anjem Choudary" etc) why do we still pay for these peoples families to live in they UK they should be deport? And i cant see Corbyn kicking these people out of the country! I doubt the Tories will either but i will take my chances
As for Brexit people want to know what is happening i would imagine Theresa May/David Davis know what they want to do but will not spill the beans until they know how the EU will be negotiating with us. I certainly agree that we shouldn't commit to the current EU nationals living here are fine to stay until we know about our current Ex-pats and their situation within the EU as it will just weaken our position!
(if anyone cares my mum managed to save and buy her own home on her own, I am 24yrs old i own my own house have a nice car and have a good job with great prospects as i was taught to work hard to get what you want in life)
Out of interest how do you think your council house was paid for/subsidised?
As @Red_James states - via a system that his mum paid in to: "grew up under a single parent family with 2 brothers living in a council house in a ruff estate but my mum always had a job".
Unlike those he specifically singles out as undeserving - "around us lived on the dole each week (majority of them seemed fine to work just chose not to and have a lot of kids instead).".
It's quite clear to see there's a difference, both morally and practically, about being allowed to use the system that you've paid in to vs abusing a system you have no intention of paying in to. It's different if you're vulnerable, ill or needy - but neither vulnerable, ill or needy are life choices.
As a teenager, when my mum and I lost our house we didn't know if we had anywhere to live until a matter of hours before we had to leave; fortunately the housing association came through for us at the very final stages. Which, considering my mum had 30 odd years of paying in to the system, I don't think is particularly a piss take. She used the system when there was no alternative, how the system was designed to be used - in an practical and sustainable way.
During the year we were in emergency accommodation we met exactly the kind of people James talks about; there was a stream of police on our road constantly, a neighbour who was investigated for fraud for (a) living in a property under his girlfriends name, and (b) claiming JSA whilst having undeclared income - there was perhaps 3 genuine cases out of the 20 or so flats.
Later when we were found more permanent accommodation we had neighbours who knew how to play the game; they knew their exact entitlements, what circumstances could change to warrant an upgrade etc. These are genuinely nice people, the likes who I'd have a cigarette with if we were outside the flats at the same time, but were they legitimate? No. Were they abusing the system? Yes.
It's a complex issue, but I can sympathise with James' position. James' story is the perfect example of social mobility, and from James' age - I would assume a lot of that progress was made under the last 7 years too.
The greatest lie that the Tories and the tabloids have managed to sell is that:
a) an extraordinary number of people are wilfully cheating the benefits system
b) that they cost the taxpayer a non-trivial sum of money
c) that slashing the welfare state is the best way to stop these cheats, even if a lot of people in genuine need of help from the state are either hurt, forced into unsafe situations, or die as a result of these cuts.
And the success of how well this lie is spread is that people are so open about how much they detest people who need welfare to survive.
So you're saying that both James and I have been lied to by the tabloids, and didn't actually see it? Yeah, the Daily Mail & co loves to sell a paper by "poor baiting", but that doesn't mean that it's not a legitimate problem.
I haven't ever heard ANYONE state that those who desperately in need shouldn't be given help, I've only ever heard that that help should only be afforded to those who are genuinely in need. Why should someone who is desperately in need be given the same entitlements as someone who has made a choice not to work?
I will be voting Tories, i grew up under a single parent family with 2 brothers living in a council house in a ruff estate but my mum always had a job and worked hard as other people (neighbours/friends) around us lived on the dole each week (majority of them seemed fine to work just chose not to and have a lot of kids instead). We didn't have a lot of money but they always seemed to have more than we did (such as material things,cars etc)
Why should i now work hard for my own family (my wife & child) for others to sit at home and i pay for them via my NI/Taxes?!
I can't say Theresa May fills me with confidence but i agree with their policies immigration, trident, benefit caps etc and at least they try to cut these on the face of things anyway
I agree that immigration is good for our economy but i want to stop the people coming to the UK that cheat benefits to build their homes in eastern Europe & people that hate the UK but are happy to be put up in a lush council house and live on benefits whilst preaching hate of the way we live (ie hate preachers "Anjem Choudary" etc) why do we still pay for these peoples families to live in they UK they should be deport? And i cant see Corbyn kicking these people out of the country! I doubt the Tories will either but i will take my chances
As for Brexit people want to know what is happening i would imagine Theresa May/David Davis know what they want to do but will not spill the beans until they know how the EU will be negotiating with us. I certainly agree that we shouldn't commit to the current EU nationals living here are fine to stay until we know about our current Ex-pats and their situation within the EU as it will just weaken our position!
(if anyone cares my mum managed to save and buy her own home on her own, I am 24yrs old i own my own house have a nice car and have a good job with great prospects as i was taught to work hard to get what you want in life)
Anjem Choudry was born in Welling.
How many people come to the UK to cheat benefits and build their houses in eastern Europe?
Its good that someone works hard and gets somewhere.
Sometimes things go wrong, through ill health, economic downturns, accidents, redundancy. A safety net is important and people should not be tortured or blamed for accessing it. Living on very little money and struggling to pay the bills is no fun for the vast majority of benefits. I am not sure if you are saying that there should be no safety net at all ? Like the US ?
Also to note that benefit fraud is a tiny percantage and small amount relatively speaking. The focus on the tiny percentage of people who misuse benefits to undermine the whole idea is a favourite things of Tory newspapers but is wrong IMO. The million visits to the food bank and people being driven into further debt by sanctioning and difficulting accessing benefit shows that something is going wrong.
No I do believe a benefit system should be in place as I totally agree but as you say above for people that fall into hard times but it should be capped to make these people to strive for better in their own life instead just getting comfortable on handouts!
Yes I know misuse of benefits is only a small minority's and I hope that they do come back with a better vetting process for who qualifies for benefits so the people that actually need it get it! Also I'm sure that small minority is still a few millions wasted!
I also believe that charity should start at home and homeless people so get priority over others
I will be voting Tories, i grew up under a single parent family with 2 brothers living in a council house in a ruff estate but my mum always had a job and worked hard as other people (neighbours/friends) around us lived on the dole each week (majority of them seemed fine to work just chose not to and have a lot of kids instead). We didn't have a lot of money but they always seemed to have more than we did (such as material things,cars etc)
Why should i now work hard for my own family (my wife & child) for others to sit at home and i pay for them via my NI/Taxes?!
I can't say Theresa May fills me with confidence but i agree with their policies immigration, trident, benefit caps etc and at least they try to cut these on the face of things anyway
I agree that immigration is good for our economy but i want to stop the people coming to the UK that cheat benefits to build their homes in eastern Europe & people that hate the UK but are happy to be put up in a lush council house and live on benefits whilst preaching hate of the way we live (ie hate preachers "Anjem Choudary" etc) why do we still pay for these peoples families to live in they UK they should be deport? And i cant see Corbyn kicking these people out of the country! I doubt the Tories will either but i will take my chances
As for Brexit people want to know what is happening i would imagine Theresa May/David Davis know what they want to do but will not spill the beans until they know how the EU will be negotiating with us. I certainly agree that we shouldn't commit to the current EU nationals living here are fine to stay until we know about our current Ex-pats and their situation within the EU as it will just weaken our position!
(if anyone cares my mum managed to save and buy her own home on her own, I am 24yrs old i own my own house have a nice car and have a good job with great prospects as i was taught to work hard to get what you want in life)
Out of interest how do you think your council house was paid for/subsidised?
As @Red_James states - via a system that his mum paid in to: "grew up under a single parent family with 2 brothers living in a council house in a ruff estate but my mum always had a job".
Unlike those he specifically singles out as undeserving - "around us lived on the dole each week (majority of them seemed fine to work just chose not to and have a lot of kids instead).".
It's quite clear to see there's a difference, both morally and practically, about being allowed to use the system that you've paid in to vs abusing a system you have no intention of paying in to. It's different if you're vulnerable, ill or needy - but neither vulnerable, ill or needy are life choices.
As a teenager, when my mum and I lost our house we didn't know if we had anywhere to live until a matter of hours before we had to leave; fortunately the housing association came through for us at the very final stages. Which, considering my mum had 30 odd years of paying in to the system, I don't think is particularly a piss take. She used the system when there was no alternative, how the system was designed to be used - in an practical and sustainable way.
During the year we were in emergency accommodation we met exactly the kind of people James talks about; there was a stream of police on our road constantly, a neighbour who was investigated for fraud for (a) living in a property under his girlfriends name, and (b) claiming JSA whilst having undeclared income - there was perhaps 3 genuine cases out of the 20 or so flats.
Later when we were found more permanent accommodation we had neighbours who knew how to play the game; they knew their exact entitlements, what circumstances could change to warrant an upgrade etc. These are genuinely nice people, the likes who I'd have a cigarette with if we were outside the flats at the same time, but were they legitimate? No. Were they abusing the system? Yes.
It's a complex issue, but I can sympathise with James' position. James' story is the perfect example of social mobility, and from James' age - I would assume a lot of that progress was made under the last 7 years too.
Fine - some people cheat the system (even while many more survive by it) - so what do you do? Oh, you dismantle the system, that's right
The greatest lie that the Tories and the tabloids have managed to sell is that:
a) an extraordinary number of people are wilfully cheating the benefits system
b) that they cost the taxpayer a non-trivial sum of money
c) that slashing the welfare state is the best way to stop these cheats, even if a lot of people in genuine need of help from the state are either hurt, forced into unsafe situations, or die as a result of these cuts.
And the success of how well this lie is spread is that people are so open about how much they detest people who need welfare to survive.
So you're saying that both James and I have been lied to by the tabloids, and didn't actually see it? Yeah, the Daily Mail & co loves to sell a paper by "poor baiting", but that doesn't mean that it's not a legitimate problem.
I haven't ever heard ANYONE state that those who desperately in need shouldn't be given help, I've only ever heard that that help should only be afforded to those who are genuinely in need. Why should someone who is desperately in need be given the same entitlements as someone who has made a choice not to work?
They shouldn't, and the government has had plenty of time to increase the number of fraud investigators, but have not done so instead they have done what Cordoban Addick explained on the previous page, but I guess you didn't read, so here it is again:
We have paid £700 million to two private American companies (£200m above contract) to check if disabled people are fit for work and 80% of their decisions to cut benefits have been wrong (on appeal).
The bedroom tax is a disaster and has not met anywhere near savings targets but has caused real hardship for vulnerable people. It has been consistently (successfully) challenged in the courts.
Housing benefit cuts for the young (under 25s) has actually cost money.
And as I previously said they implemented blanket cuts that affected everyone, yet I bet if you go to the places the idle scumbags live, they are still poncing away. Meanwhile the real needy suffer from these Tory decisions.
I will be voting Tories, i grew up under a single parent family with 2 brothers living in a council house in a ruff estate but my mum always had a job and worked hard as other people (neighbours/friends) around us lived on the dole each week (majority of them seemed fine to work just chose not to and have a lot of kids instead). We didn't have a lot of money but they always seemed to have more than we did (such as material things,cars etc)
Why should i now work hard for my own family (my wife & child) for others to sit at home and i pay for them via my NI/Taxes?!
I can't say Theresa May fills me with confidence but i agree with their policies immigration, trident, benefit caps etc and at least they try to cut these on the face of things anyway
I agree that immigration is good for our economy but i want to stop the people coming to the UK that cheat benefits to build their homes in eastern Europe & people that hate the UK but are happy to be put up in a lush council house and live on benefits whilst preaching hate of the way we live (ie hate preachers "Anjem Choudary" etc) why do we still pay for these peoples families to live in they UK they should be deport? And i cant see Corbyn kicking these people out of the country! I doubt the Tories will either but i will take my chances
As for Brexit people want to know what is happening i would imagine Theresa May/David Davis know what they want to do but will not spill the beans until they know how the EU will be negotiating with us. I certainly agree that we shouldn't commit to the current EU nationals living here are fine to stay until we know about our current Ex-pats and their situation within the EU as it will just weaken our position!
(if anyone cares my mum managed to save and buy her own home on her own, I am 24yrs old i own my own house have a nice car and have a good job with great prospects as i was taught to work hard to get what you want in life)
Out of interest how do you think your council house was paid for/subsidised?
Yes I understand that is was subsidised by the tax payer but I am saying that people around us had a council house and more even though they wasn't working compared to me growing up and that it should be capped so that they want to better themselves, I am happy to pay my taxes for people that deserve it!
Ironic people compare working hard to get what you deserve with the Tories when most of them inherited their wealth and are only where they are due to nepotism.
Ironic people compare working hard to get what you deserve with the Tories when most of them inherited their wealth and are only where they are due to nepotism.
It is a confidence trick - as simple as that.
I'm definitely not an ideological Tory I'm a swing voter but I feel that I relate to them this time round that I do any of the other parties
I know none of them have ever had a hard days graft on their entire life compared to the rest of us
I will be voting Tories, i grew up under a single parent family with 2 brothers living in a council house in a ruff estate but my mum always had a job and worked hard as other people (neighbours/friends) around us lived on the dole each week (majority of them seemed fine to work just chose not to and have a lot of kids instead). We didn't have a lot of money but they always seemed to have more than we did (such as material things,cars etc)
Why should i now work hard for my own family (my wife & child) for others to sit at home and i pay for them via my NI/Taxes?!
I can't say Theresa May fills me with confidence but i agree with their policies immigration, trident, benefit caps etc and at least they try to cut these on the face of things anyway
I agree that immigration is good for our economy but i want to stop the people coming to the UK that cheat benefits to build their homes in eastern Europe & people that hate the UK but are happy to be put up in a lush council house and live on benefits whilst preaching hate of the way we live (ie hate preachers "Anjem Choudary" etc) why do we still pay for these peoples families to live in they UK they should be deport? And i cant see Corbyn kicking these people out of the country! I doubt the Tories will either but i will take my chances
As for Brexit people want to know what is happening i would imagine Theresa May/David Davis know what they want to do but will not spill the beans until they know how the EU will be negotiating with us. I certainly agree that we shouldn't commit to the current EU nationals living here are fine to stay until we know about our current Ex-pats and their situation within the EU as it will just weaken our position!
(if anyone cares my mum managed to save and buy her own home on her own, I am 24yrs old i own my own house have a nice car and have a good job with great prospects as i was taught to work hard to get what you want in life)
Out of interest how do you think your council house was paid for/subsidised?
As @Red_James states - via a system that his mum paid in to: "grew up under a single parent family with 2 brothers living in a council house in a ruff estate but my mum always had a job".
Unlike those he specifically singles out as undeserving - "around us lived on the dole each week (majority of them seemed fine to work just chose not to and have a lot of kids instead).".
It's quite clear to see there's a difference, both morally and practically, about being allowed to use the system that you've paid in to vs abusing a system you have no intention of paying in to. It's different if you're vulnerable, ill or needy - but neither vulnerable, ill or needy are life choices.
As a teenager, when my mum and I lost our house we didn't know if we had anywhere to live until a matter of hours before we had to leave; fortunately the housing association came through for us at the very final stages. Which, considering my mum had 30 odd years of paying in to the system, I don't think is particularly a piss take. She used the system when there was no alternative, how the system was designed to be used - in an practical and sustainable way.
During the year we were in emergency accommodation we met exactly the kind of people James talks about; there was a stream of police on our road constantly, a neighbour who was investigated for fraud for (a) living in a property under his girlfriends name, and (b) claiming JSA whilst having undeclared income - there was perhaps 3 genuine cases out of the 20 or so flats.
Later when we were found more permanent accommodation we had neighbours who knew how to play the game; they knew their exact entitlements, what circumstances could change to warrant an upgrade etc. These are genuinely nice people, the likes who I'd have a cigarette with if we were outside the flats at the same time, but were they legitimate? No. Were they abusing the system? Yes.
It's a complex issue, but I can sympathise with James' position. James' story is the perfect example of social mobility, and from James' age - I would assume a lot of that progress was made under the last 7 years too.
Fine - some people cheat the system (even while many more survive by it) - so what do you do? Oh, you dismantle the system, that's right
No I don't want to dismantle it as it helped me and my family when we was in need! What I was trying to get across is that not all Tory voters are stuck up toffs!
Ironic people compare working hard to get what you deserve with the Tories when most of them inherited their wealth and are only where they are due to nepotism.
Ironic people compare working hard to get what you deserve with the Tories when most of them inherited their wealth and are only where they are due to nepotism.
It is a confidence trick - as simple as that.
I'm definitely not an ideological Tory I'm a swing voter but I feel that I relate to them this time round that I do any of the other parties
I know none of them have ever had a hard days graft on their entire life compared to the rest of us
Another interesting aspect of this is how Red James resents his taxes paying for benefit cheats. He might be surprised to find out what percentage of his taxes go towards benefits full stop, as opposed to, like, the NHS etc
Ironic people compare working hard to get what you deserve with the Tories when most of them inherited their wealth and are only where they are due to nepotism.
Ironic people compare working hard to get what you deserve with the Tories when most of them inherited their wealth and are only where they are due to nepotism.
It is a confidence trick - as simple as that.
I'm definitely not an ideological Tory I'm a swing voter but I feel that I relate to them this time round that I do any of the other parties
I know none of them have ever had a hard days graft on their entire life compared to the rest of us
A swing voter?! BLAIRITE SCUM
As I don't agree with your views?! Thought this was a democracy??
The greatest lie that the Tories and the tabloids have managed to sell is that:
a) an extraordinary number of people are wilfully cheating the benefits system
b) that they cost the taxpayer a non-trivial sum of money
c) that slashing the welfare state is the best way to stop these cheats, even if a lot of people in genuine need of help from the state are either hurt, forced into unsafe situations, or die as a result of these cuts.
And the success of how well this lie is spread is that people are so open about how much they detest people who need welfare to survive.
So you're saying that both James and I have been lied to by the tabloids, and didn't actually see it? Yeah, the Daily Mail & co loves to sell a paper by "poor baiting", but that doesn't mean that it's not a legitimate problem.
I haven't ever heard ANYONE state that those who desperately in need shouldn't be given help, I've only ever heard that that help should only be afforded to those who are genuinely in need. Why should someone who is desperately in need be given the same entitlements as someone who has made a choice not to work?
They shouldn't, and the government has had plenty of time to increase the number of fraud investigators, but have not done so instead they have done what Cordoban Addick explained on the previous page, but I guess you didn't read, so here it is again:
You what? I mentioned one of those companies about 20 pages ago mate - so I'm well aware, but I guess you didn't read.
We have paid £700 million to two private American companies (£200m above contract) to check if disabled people are fit for work and 80% of their decisions to cut benefits have been wrong (on appeal).
I know, around 20 pages ago I mentioned that I had to go through the whole appeals process for ESA and DLA around 6 years ago. I'm pretty sure I've also mentioned how all of the private companies bought in are woefully inept - including the ones running the jobsearch activities, who are actually just fraudulent. I contacted my MP and the Minister for Work and Pensions (IDS at the time?) to underline my own views.
The bedroom tax is a disaster and has not met anywhere near savings targets but has caused real hardship for vulnerable people. It has been consistently (successfully) challenged in the courts.
I don't agree with the bedroom tax personally, but the only person I do has - surprisingly - had to move because of it herself. I do however agree with the idea behind it - making effective use of the available stock.
Housing benefit cuts for the young (under 25s) has actually cost money.
And as I previously said they implemented blanket cuts that affected everyone, yet I bet if you go to the places the idle scumbags live, they are still poncing away. Meanwhile the real needy suffer from these Tory decisions.
Right, and this was precisely my point.. So.. Yeah..? I openly stated that the vulnerable, needy and ill need assistance, and they should be given it whilst those who are abusing the system shouldn't.
I haven't said I explicitly agree with the Tory policy, and actually I was clarifying the point that James made. Your response is a bit bizarre and confused.
I will be voting Tories, i grew up under a single parent family with 2 brothers living in a council house in a ruff estate but my mum always had a job and worked hard as other people (neighbours/friends) around us lived on the dole each week (majority of them seemed fine to work just chose not to and have a lot of kids instead). We didn't have a lot of money but they always seemed to have more than we did (such as material things,cars etc)
Why should i now work hard for my own family (my wife & child) for others to sit at home and i pay for them via my NI/Taxes?!
I can't say Theresa May fills me with confidence but i agree with their policies immigration, trident, benefit caps etc and at least they try to cut these on the face of things anyway
I agree that immigration is good for our economy but i want to stop the people coming to the UK that cheat benefits to build their homes in eastern Europe & people that hate the UK but are happy to be put up in a lush council house and live on benefits whilst preaching hate of the way we live (ie hate preachers "Anjem Choudary" etc) why do we still pay for these peoples families to live in they UK they should be deport? And i cant see Corbyn kicking these people out of the country! I doubt the Tories will either but i will take my chances
As for Brexit people want to know what is happening i would imagine Theresa May/David Davis know what they want to do but will not spill the beans until they know how the EU will be negotiating with us. I certainly agree that we shouldn't commit to the current EU nationals living here are fine to stay until we know about our current Ex-pats and their situation within the EU as it will just weaken our position!
(if anyone cares my mum managed to save and buy her own home on her own, I am 24yrs old i own my own house have a nice car and have a good job with great prospects as i was taught to work hard to get what you want in life)
Out of interest how do you think your council house was paid for/subsidised?
As @Red_James states - via a system that his mum paid in to: "grew up under a single parent family with 2 brothers living in a council house in a ruff estate but my mum always had a job".
Unlike those he specifically singles out as undeserving - "around us lived on the dole each week (majority of them seemed fine to work just chose not to and have a lot of kids instead).".
It's quite clear to see there's a difference, both morally and practically, about being allowed to use the system that you've paid in to vs abusing a system you have no intention of paying in to. It's different if you're vulnerable, ill or needy - but neither vulnerable, ill or needy are life choices.
As a teenager, when my mum and I lost our house we didn't know if we had anywhere to live until a matter of hours before we had to leave; fortunately the housing association came through for us at the very final stages. Which, considering my mum had 30 odd years of paying in to the system, I don't think is particularly a piss take. She used the system when there was no alternative, how the system was designed to be used - in an practical and sustainable way.
During the year we were in emergency accommodation we met exactly the kind of people James talks about; there was a stream of police on our road constantly, a neighbour who was investigated for fraud for (a) living in a property under his girlfriends name, and (b) claiming JSA whilst having undeclared income - there was perhaps 3 genuine cases out of the 20 or so flats.
Later when we were found more permanent accommodation we had neighbours who knew how to play the game; they knew their exact entitlements, what circumstances could change to warrant an upgrade etc. These are genuinely nice people, the likes who I'd have a cigarette with if we were outside the flats at the same time, but were they legitimate? No. Were they abusing the system? Yes.
It's a complex issue, but I can sympathise with James' position. James' story is the perfect example of social mobility, and from James' age - I would assume a lot of that progress was made under the last 7 years too.
Fine - some people cheat the system (even while many more survive by it) - so what do you do? Oh, you dismantle the system, that's right
Another interesting aspect of this is how Red James resents his taxes paying for benefit cheats. He might be surprised to find out what percentage of his taxes go towards benefits full stop, as opposed to, like, the NHS etc
Best decision HMRC made was to publish those nice little pie-chart things that they send you every year IMO.
The greatest lie that the Tories and the tabloids have managed to sell is that:
a) an extraordinary number of people are wilfully cheating the benefits system
b) that they cost the taxpayer a non-trivial sum of money
c) that slashing the welfare state is the best way to stop these cheats, even if a lot of people in genuine need of help from the state are either hurt, forced into unsafe situations, or die as a result of these cuts.
And the success of how well this lie is spread is that people are so open about how much they detest people who need welfare to survive.
So you're saying that both James and I have been lied to by the tabloids, and didn't actually see it? Yeah, the Daily Mail & co loves to sell a paper by "poor baiting", but that doesn't mean that it's not a legitimate problem.
I haven't ever heard ANYONE state that those who desperately in need shouldn't be given help, I've only ever heard that that help should only be afforded to those who are genuinely in need. Why should someone who is desperately in need be given the same entitlements as someone who has made a choice not to work?
The late brother of a friend of mine was declared fit to return to work (and therefore relieved of his benefits) 2 weeks before he died of the condition he had been battling against for some years. It is very tragic when people in genuine need have their benefits suddenly removed. Of course, his brother could have appealed and likely would have won, had he lived. Instead, he spent his final days feeling labeled as a benefits cheat.
Probably all of my taxes go to the NHS or other more important things but that wasn't my argument but you twist my point into something else!
Someone's taxes pay for these things could be yours or could be mine who actually knows?!
Again I'm more than happy to pay my taxes for these things
A quarter of your taxes is spent on welfare, actually! It's quite a lot (albeit not as much as some make it out to be) but the vast majority of it goes to people who need it.
The greatest lie that the Tories and the tabloids have managed to sell is that:
a) an extraordinary number of people are wilfully cheating the benefits system
b) that they cost the taxpayer a non-trivial sum of money
c) that slashing the welfare state is the best way to stop these cheats, even if a lot of people in genuine need of help from the state are either hurt, forced into unsafe situations, or die as a result of these cuts.
And the success of how well this lie is spread is that people are so open about how much they detest people who need welfare to survive.
So you're saying that both James and I have been lied to by the tabloids, and didn't actually see it? Yeah, the Daily Mail & co loves to sell a paper by "poor baiting", but that doesn't mean that it's not a legitimate problem.
I haven't ever heard ANYONE state that those who desperately in need shouldn't be given help, I've only ever heard that that help should only be afforded to those who are genuinely in need. Why should someone who is desperately in need be given the same entitlements as someone who has made a choice not to work?
The late brother of a friend of mine was declared fit to return to work (and therefore relieved of his benefits) 2 weeks before he died of the condition he had been battling against for some years. It is very tragic when people in genuine need have their benefits suddenly removed. Of course, his brother could have appealed and likely would have won, had he lived. Instead, he spent his final days feeling labeled as a benefits cheat.
So how do all these people get away with it???
That's absolutely tragic, I'm sorry to hear that. There are - unfortunately - many cases like that; including people in comas being declared fit to work.
I presume this was an assessment carried out by Atos? In which case they were utter scumbags, and their assessments were complete and utter nonsense. In my post above I mention how I tried to contact MPs to underline it, and also did the usual petitions/campaigns.
IMO one of the biggest issues with the system is those who aren't fit enough to appeal and fight decisions are those who are genuine, and will lose out. I'm fortunate enough that I had multiple doctors, a care-coordinator and multiple psychiatric nurses involved with my care at the time.
Ironic people compare working hard to get what you deserve with the Tories when most of them inherited their wealth and are only where they are due to nepotism.
Ironic people compare working hard to get what you deserve with the Tories when most of them inherited their wealth and are only where they are due to nepotism.
It is a confidence trick - as simple as that.
I'm definitely not an ideological Tory I'm a swing voter but I feel that I relate to them this time round that I do any of the other parties
I know none of them have ever had a hard days graft on their entire life compared to the rest of us
A swing voter?! BLAIRITE SCUM
As I don't agree with your views?! Thought this was a democracy??
It was tongue in cheek, but your point remains. Labour are making the same mistake as they did in the eighties, trying to appeal to their dwindling core whilst ignoring swing voters.
Comments
a) an extraordinary number of people are wilfully cheating the benefits system
b) that they cost the taxpayer a non-trivial sum of money
c) that slashing the welfare state is the best way to stop these cheats, even if a lot of people in genuine need of help from the state are either hurt, forced into unsafe situations, or die as a result of these cuts.
And the success of how well this lie is spread is that people are so open about how much they detest people who need welfare to survive.
As for brexit, we were repeatedly told - look at Norway, we will stay in the single market - May has basically told us we are leaving the single market. So what beans are there to spill in relation to that important point? We are leaving because some Tories have an idealogical objection to the EU and managed to use people's prejudices against immigration as the decider when all knowledge shows EU immigrants benefit the country. As somebody who had dealings outside of this country for my business, I can tell you that it would be a disaster. That will affect you and every other working class person who has done well for themselves at some point and see voting Tory as a medal of honour to prove it!
Unlike those he specifically singles out as undeserving - "around us lived on the dole each week (majority of them seemed fine to work just chose not to and have a lot of kids instead).".
It's quite clear to see there's a difference, both morally and practically, about being allowed to use the system that you've paid in to vs abusing a system you have no intention of paying in to. It's different if you're vulnerable, ill or needy - but neither vulnerable, ill or needy are life choices.
As a teenager, when my mum and I lost our house we didn't know if we had anywhere to live until a matter of hours before we had to leave; fortunately the housing association came through for us at the very final stages. Which, considering my mum had 30 odd years of paying in to the system, I don't think is particularly a piss take. She used the system when there was no alternative, how the system was designed to be used - in an practical and sustainable way.
During the year we were in emergency accommodation we met exactly the kind of people James talks about; there was a stream of police on our road constantly, a neighbour who was investigated for fraud for (a) living in a property under his girlfriends name, and (b) claiming JSA whilst having undeclared income - there was perhaps 3 genuine cases out of the 20 or so flats.
Later when we were found more permanent accommodation we had neighbours who knew how to play the game; they knew their exact entitlements, what circumstances could change to warrant an upgrade etc. These are genuinely nice people, the likes who I'd have a cigarette with if we were outside the flats at the same time, but were they legitimate? No. Were they abusing the system? Yes.
It's a complex issue, but I can sympathise with James' position. James' story is the perfect example of social mobility, and from James' age - I would assume a lot of that progress was made under the last 7 years too.
I haven't ever heard ANYONE state that those who desperately in need shouldn't be given help, I've only ever heard that that help should only be afforded to those who are genuinely in need. Why should someone who is desperately in need be given the same entitlements as someone who has made a choice not to work?
How many people come to the UK to cheat benefits and build their houses in eastern Europe?
No I do believe a benefit system should be in place as I totally agree but as you say above for people that fall into hard times but it should be capped to make these people to strive for better in their own life instead just getting comfortable on handouts!
Yes I know misuse of benefits is only a small minority's and I hope that they do come back with a better vetting process for who qualifies for benefits so the people that actually need it get it! Also I'm sure that small minority is still a few millions wasted!
I also believe that charity should start at home and homeless people so get priority over others
We have paid £700 million to two private American companies (£200m above contract) to check if disabled people are fit for work and 80% of their decisions to cut benefits have been wrong (on appeal).
The bedroom tax is a disaster and has not met anywhere near savings targets but has caused real hardship for vulnerable people. It has been consistently (successfully) challenged in the courts.
Housing benefit cuts for the young (under 25s) has actually cost money.
And as I previously said they implemented blanket cuts that affected everyone, yet I bet if you go to the places the idle scumbags live, they are still poncing away. Meanwhile the real needy suffer from these Tory decisions.
I'm definitely not an ideological Tory I'm a swing voter but I feel that I relate to them this time round that I do any of the other parties
I know none of them have ever had a hard days graft on their entire life compared to the rest of us
No I don't want to dismantle it as it helped me and my family when we was in need! What I was trying to get across is that not all Tory voters are stuck up toffs!
Someone's taxes pay for these things could be yours or could be mine who actually knows?!
Again I'm more than happy to pay my taxes for these things
So how do all these people get away with it???
Go down this list https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-public-spending-was-calculated-in-your-tax-summary/how-public-spending-was-calculated-in-your-tax-summary and think about each thing - education, defence, transport etc - and consider the implications of cuts to any of them. It's a pickle, isn't it?
I presume this was an assessment carried out by Atos? In which case they were utter scumbags, and their assessments were complete and utter nonsense. In my post above I mention how I tried to contact MPs to underline it, and also did the usual petitions/campaigns.
IMO one of the biggest issues with the system is those who aren't fit enough to appeal and fight decisions are those who are genuine, and will lose out. I'm fortunate enough that I had multiple doctors, a care-coordinator and multiple psychiatric nurses involved with my care at the time.