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The General Election - June 8th 2017

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  • TelMc32 said:

    There are reasons they were striking though isn't there and a major one being the incompetent Health Secretary, who seems to have gone missing again leaving Rudd to front up #Where'sJeremy

    Yeah, just pointing out the complications of using stuff off twitter as a pointer as to how to vote.
  • stonemuse said:

    Fiiish said:

    2010 - "NHS safe in Tory hands."

    2017 - English hospitals effectively shut down

    Fook me I must be hallucinating. I could have sworn that myself & my family have had 10 hospital visits in the past 12 months. Doctor ..........
    Strange, I have similar experience with no problems. Must be very fortunate.
    I just read comments from an NHS Consultant ... in the New Statesman, definitely not a Tory publication ...that despite hearing for years that the NHS is close to collapse, he believes it works for most people, most of the time.

    As he puts it, despite population growth, longevity, and the increasing costs of new drugs and technology, the following is true for most people:

    1. They can see a GP on the day, if their problem is urgent.
    2. If they go to a hospital A&E, over 85% will be seen by a doctor and admitted (or discharged) within four hours.
    3. About 95% of people with suspected cancer will see an appropriate specialist, with the major tests already done, within two weeks.
    4. If you have a heart attack or stroke, you will see a specialist and have therapy within hours.

    He also comments on cost positively by stating that at £110bn a year, it costs roughly £1,500 per person a year, compared to the £1,000 spent per person a year on alcohol.




    I'm no expert so have no idea on the validity of the figures but it doesn't sound like a collapse of the system.
  • Chizz said:

    stonemuse said:

    stonemuse said:

    Fiiish said:

    2010 - "NHS safe in Tory hands."

    2017 - English hospitals effectively shut down

    Fook me I must be hallucinating. I could have sworn that myself & my family have had 10 hospital visits in the past 12 months. Doctor ..........
    Strange, I have similar experience with no problems. Must be very fortunate.
    I just read comments from an NHS Consultant ... in the New Statesman, definitely not a Tory publication ...that despite hearing for years that the NHS is close to collapse, he believes it works for most people, most of the time.

    As he puts it, despite population growth, longevity, and the increasing costs of new drugs and technology, the following is true for most people:

    1. They can see a GP on the day, if their problem is urgent.
    2. If they go to a hospital A&E, over 85% will be seen by a doctor and admitted (or discharged) within four hours.
    3. About 95% of people with suspected cancer will see an appropriate specialist, with the major tests already done, within two weeks.
    4. If you have a heart attack or stroke, you will see a specialist and have therapy within hours.

    He also comments on cost positively by stating that at £110bn a year, it costs roughly £1,500 per person a year, compared to the £1,000 spent per person a year on alcohol.




    I'm no expert so have no idea on the validity of the figures but it doesn't sound like a collapse of the system.
    1. Being able to see a GP when you have an URGENT reason to do so should be the bare minimum anyone should expect.

    2. 15% of people attending an A&E and not seeing a doctor for more than four hours is shameful.

    3. One person in 20 who is suspected of suffering from cancer does not see an appropriate specialist for over a fortnight. That is a sign of a service in crisis.

    4. If you have a heart attack or stroke and you're seen within hours instead of minutes, your condition could be fatally compromised.

    These look like four hand-picked data points that demonstrate how badly and dangerously underfunded the NHS is currently.
    No idea. I'm doing what loads of others do and quoting statements from the media, on this occasion from a Labour publication which I read every week.

    My experience of the NHS over the last 2-3 years, over which I have unfortunately had to use them frequently, is that they are definitely not in collapse. Big problems, absolutely no doubt ... but not collapse.
  • In the eighties when everything was being cut (from a far higher base) it took five - ten years for the cracks to appear and then widen into chasms. At the moment a lot of people in the NHS and voluntary/charity sector are working hard to ensure it doesn't collapse.
    People are working longer hours and making do with old equipment, gaps are being filled and corners are being cut. Eventually the people doing this will crash and leave the profession. The crisis in recruitment will exacerbate the problem. The system will crash.

    A analogy is when you look at us under Chris Powell, a good team was built that punched above its weight. When Duchatelet took over we could all see the watering down in quality of the team but the spirit of the players, the support of the fans and the coaches & staff left behind kept things ticking over and we managed to stay up for a few seasons until finally we reached the tipping point of where all the crap that went on overcame the good things that remained. Relegation was inevitable consequence and anybody with half a brain could see it coming.

    Duchatelet = May
    Meire = Hunt (there really is no leadership at the top of the NHS at the moment, May knows this but Hunt keeps his job because he is Tory royalty)
    Robinson = Simon Stevens, desperately trying to do his job despite broken promises and diminishing resources (OK the gobby bit doesn't stand up but...)
    Over inflated contracts and terms to no hope players = over inflated contracts to private suppliers
    Out of contract players = over reliance on agency staff
    At odds with the fan-base = disaffected staff
  • stonemuse said:

    Chizz said:

    stonemuse said:

    stonemuse said:

    Fiiish said:

    2010 - "NHS safe in Tory hands."

    2017 - English hospitals effectively shut down

    Fook me I must be hallucinating. I could have sworn that myself & my family have had 10 hospital visits in the past 12 months. Doctor ..........
    Strange, I have similar experience with no problems. Must be very fortunate.
    I just read comments from an NHS Consultant ... in the New Statesman, definitely not a Tory publication ...that despite hearing for years that the NHS is close to collapse, he believes it works for most people, most of the time.

    As he puts it, despite population growth, longevity, and the increasing costs of new drugs and technology, the following is true for most people:

    1. They can see a GP on the day, if their problem is urgent.
    2. If they go to a hospital A&E, over 85% will be seen by a doctor and admitted (or discharged) within four hours.
    3. About 95% of people with suspected cancer will see an appropriate specialist, with the major tests already done, within two weeks.
    4. If you have a heart attack or stroke, you will see a specialist and have therapy within hours.

    He also comments on cost positively by stating that at £110bn a year, it costs roughly £1,500 per person a year, compared to the £1,000 spent per person a year on alcohol.




    I'm no expert so have no idea on the validity of the figures but it doesn't sound like a collapse of the system.
    1. Being able to see a GP when you have an URGENT reason to do so should be the bare minimum anyone should expect.

    2. 15% of people attending an A&E and not seeing a doctor for more than four hours is shameful.

    3. One person in 20 who is suspected of suffering from cancer does not see an appropriate specialist for over a fortnight. That is a sign of a service in crisis.

    4. If you have a heart attack or stroke and you're seen within hours instead of minutes, your condition could be fatally compromised.

    These look like four hand-picked data points that demonstrate how badly and dangerously underfunded the NHS is currently.
    No idea. I'm doing what loads of others do and quoting statements from the media, on this occasion from a Labour publication which I read every week.

    My experience of the NHS over the last 2-3 years, over which I have unfortunately had to use them frequently, is that they are definitely not in collapse. Big problems, absolutely no doubt ... but not collapse.
    There may not be collapse, but how much of a step is it between big problems and collapse? The Tories seem to be cool about public services being close to the edge. Prisons are in crisis, class sizes rising, waiting times increasing, roads crumbling and so forth. Personally I think services are clearly diminishing and the Tories policy seems to be to let them crumble away whilst pretending they're getting better.
  • Nhs is run on freebies, my mum has just retired from the L&D and apparently they have over 500 full time volunteers... times that by every hospital in the country and it's a scandal.


    Take away the freebies and cheaper foreign workers and you have no NHS
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  • seth plum said:

    stonemuse said:

    Chizz said:

    stonemuse said:

    stonemuse said:

    Fiiish said:

    2010 - "NHS safe in Tory hands."

    2017 - English hospitals effectively shut down

    Fook me I must be hallucinating. I could have sworn that myself & my family have had 10 hospital visits in the past 12 months. Doctor ..........
    Strange, I have similar experience with no problems. Must be very fortunate.
    I just read comments from an NHS Consultant ... in the New Statesman, definitely not a Tory publication ...that despite hearing for years that the NHS is close to collapse, he believes it works for most people, most of the time.

    As he puts it, despite population growth, longevity, and the increasing costs of new drugs and technology, the following is true for most people:

    1. They can see a GP on the day, if their problem is urgent.
    2. If they go to a hospital A&E, over 85% will be seen by a doctor and admitted (or discharged) within four hours.
    3. About 95% of people with suspected cancer will see an appropriate specialist, with the major tests already done, within two weeks.
    4. If you have a heart attack or stroke, you will see a specialist and have therapy within hours.

    He also comments on cost positively by stating that at £110bn a year, it costs roughly £1,500 per person a year, compared to the £1,000 spent per person a year on alcohol.




    I'm no expert so have no idea on the validity of the figures but it doesn't sound like a collapse of the system.
    1. Being able to see a GP when you have an URGENT reason to do so should be the bare minimum anyone should expect.

    2. 15% of people attending an A&E and not seeing a doctor for more than four hours is shameful.

    3. One person in 20 who is suspected of suffering from cancer does not see an appropriate specialist for over a fortnight. That is a sign of a service in crisis.

    4. If you have a heart attack or stroke and you're seen within hours instead of minutes, your condition could be fatally compromised.

    These look like four hand-picked data points that demonstrate how badly and dangerously underfunded the NHS is currently.
    No idea. I'm doing what loads of others do and quoting statements from the media, on this occasion from a Labour publication which I read every week.

    My experience of the NHS over the last 2-3 years, over which I have unfortunately had to use them frequently, is that they are definitely not in collapse. Big problems, absolutely no doubt ... but not collapse.
    There may not be collapse, but how much of a step is it between big problems and collapse? The Tories seem to be cool about public services being close to the edge. Prisons are in crisis, class sizes rising, waiting times increasing, roads crumbling and so forth. Personally I think services are clearly diminishing and the Tories policy seems to be to let them crumble away whilst pretending they're getting better.
    Seth, I was only commenting on the fact that people in the media and on here were stating that the NHS was in collapse and effectively shut down. This is not true.

    There is no need for exaggeration and hyperbole.
  • edited May 2017
    As long as the Tories can ignore problems with public services, they will.
  • edited May 2017
    Andrew Neil ripping the former (edited: thanks @EveshamAddick ) Housing Minister, Brandon Lewis, apart this morning following the policy release of building more homes.

    60,000 affordable homes built in their first year in power in 2010-11 which had dropped to just 32,000 last year. Policy released with no timescale, no costing and, in Neil's words, "no credibility".
  • Yes but this is the point Stonemuse was making.
    Any type of hyperbole and exaggeration has nothing to contribute to serious debate. Regardless where it is from.
  • Fiiish said:

    stonemuse said:

    There is no need for exaggeration and hyperbole.

    "This is a total shambles. Jeremy Corbyn's plans to unleash chaos on Britain have been revealed.

    "The commitments in this dossier will rack up tens of billions of extra borrowing for our families and will put Brexit negotiations at risk."

    image
    Proves my point.
  • Fiiish said:

    The fact is all these people defending the Tories record on the NHS would be apoplectic if it was Labour's record.

    If you're still voting Tory, would you like to justify why preventable death amongst the poor, the disabled and the young is rising under the Tories?

    I'll be voting for whoever I like.

    Cannot stand the demonisation of normal, respectable people who carry perfectly legitimate options.
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  • vff said:

    stonemuse said:

    Fiiish said:

    stonemuse said:

    There is no need for exaggeration and hyperbole.

    "This is a total shambles. Jeremy Corbyn's plans to unleash chaos on Britain have been revealed.

    "The commitments in this dossier will rack up tens of billions of extra borrowing for our families and will put Brexit negotiations at risk."

    image
    Proves my point.
    What point ? I can see that the most pro tight wing Tory newspapers will make stuff up & exaggerate to the maximum & do their utmost to support Tories. There may be another point.

    IMO. Tories don't do positive campaigning. Australian Crosby does unremittingly cynical & negative campaigns. There is no positive discussion of policies that may benefit the country. It is just negative shouting headlines. Hammer home a basic slogan, make pledges that they have no intention of keeping to, keep May's statements minimal, no proper discussion or debate & keep critical questions away.

    Blame all the problems on migration / EC / poor people, anyone else apart from themselves.

    It makes for terrible policies & makes it harder to find solutions to solve health, housing, education & trade questions. These problems don't get solved. Life becomes evermore stressful & pressurised. The country can be better but it will not get better under the Tories. That's ok. There will always be someone else to blame.
    You know exactly which point, I stated it clearly enough.

    No exaggeration nor hyperbole ... from either side.
  • Fiiish said:

    Fiiish said:

    The fact is all these people defending the Tories record on the NHS would be apoplectic if it was Labour's record.

    If you're still voting Tory, would you like to justify why preventable death amongst the poor, the disabled and the young is rising under the Tories?

    I'll be voting for whoever I like.

    Cannot stand the demonisation of normal, respectable people who carry perfectly legitimate options.
    It's more that people are quite happy to defend the Tories on stuff like the NHS cyberattack (even though the Home Secretary came out today and said they knew the NHS has been vulnerable to cyberattack for a while but they refused to do anything about it. Pretty damning for whoever the previous Home Secretary was...oh wait) so I'd like to see some defences for some of the other failures the Tories are responsible for. Do people just silently accept that they are justifying these failures when they vote Tory, convince themselves there isn't a problem, or are they just ignorant?
    I'd make two points.

    1) the recent cyber attack is not the fault of bloody Jeremy Hunt is it. Any computer system running a slightly out of date version of Windows was vulnerable. This has been demonstrated by the number of private sector firms that have been affected. Besides, when the Conservatives tried to update the NHS system a few years ago, they were widely criticised!!

    2) it is always easy to criticise the government in power. The NHS would have the same issues under Labour. Massively increasing population and a NHS which doesn't even check who it is treating. It's a massive black hole.
  • Fiiish said:

    Fiiish said:

    The fact is all these people defending the Tories record on the NHS would be apoplectic if it was Labour's record.

    If you're still voting Tory, would you like to justify why preventable death amongst the poor, the disabled and the young is rising under the Tories?

    I'll be voting for whoever I like.

    Cannot stand the demonisation of normal, respectable people who carry perfectly legitimate options.
    It's more that people are quite happy to defend the Tories on stuff like the NHS cyberattack (even though the Home Secretary came out today and said they knew the NHS has been vulnerable to cyberattack for a while but they refused to do anything about it. Pretty damning for whoever the previous Home Secretary was...oh wait) so I'd like to see some defences for some of the other failures the Tories are responsible for. Do people just silently accept that they are justifying these failures when they vote Tory, convince themselves there isn't a problem, or are they just ignorant?
    I'd make two points.

    1) the recent cyber attack is not the fault of bloody Jeremy Hunt is it. Any computer system running a slightly out of date version of Windows was vulnerable. This has been demonstrated by the number of private sector firms that have been affected. Besides, when the Conservatives tried to update the NHS system a few years ago, they were widely criticised!!

    2) it is always easy to criticise the government in power. The NHS would have the same issues under Labour. Massively increasing population and a NHS which doesn't even check who it is treating. It's a massive black hole.
    Just because other people were negligent too doesn't excuse the Tories.
  • Anyone see Emily "Sausage Fingers" Thornberry on The Marr Show this morning? What a hoot
This discussion has been closed.

Roland Out Forever!