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The General Election - June 8th 2017
Comments
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Yeah, just pointing out the complications of using stuff off twitter as a pointer as to how to vote.TelMc32 said:There are reasons they were striking though isn't there and a major one being the incompetent Health Secretary, who seems to have gone missing again leaving Rudd to front up #Where'sJeremy
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I just read comments from an NHS Consultant ... in the New Statesman, definitely not a Tory publication ...that despite hearing for years that the NHS is close to collapse, he believes it works for most people, most of the time.stonemuse said:
Strange, I have similar experience with no problems. Must be very fortunate.Covered End said:
Fook me I must be hallucinating. I could have sworn that myself & my family have had 10 hospital visits in the past 12 months. Doctor ..........Fiiish said:2010 - "NHS safe in Tory hands."
2017 - English hospitals effectively shut down
As he puts it, despite population growth, longevity, and the increasing costs of new drugs and technology, the following is true for most people:
1. They can see a GP on the day, if their problem is urgent.
2. If they go to a hospital A&E, over 85% will be seen by a doctor and admitted (or discharged) within four hours.
3. About 95% of people with suspected cancer will see an appropriate specialist, with the major tests already done, within two weeks.
4. If you have a heart attack or stroke, you will see a specialist and have therapy within hours.
He also comments on cost positively by stating that at £110bn a year, it costs roughly £1,500 per person a year, compared to the £1,000 spent per person a year on alcohol.
I'm no expert so have no idea on the validity of the figures but it doesn't sound like a collapse of the system.1 -
1. Being able to see a GP when you have an URGENT reason to do so should be the bare minimum anyone should expect.stonemuse said:
I just read comments from an NHS Consultant ... in the New Statesman, definitely not a Tory publication ...that despite hearing for years that the NHS is close to collapse, he believes it works for most people, most of the time.stonemuse said:
Strange, I have similar experience with no problems. Must be very fortunate.Covered End said:
Fook me I must be hallucinating. I could have sworn that myself & my family have had 10 hospital visits in the past 12 months. Doctor ..........Fiiish said:2010 - "NHS safe in Tory hands."
2017 - English hospitals effectively shut down
As he puts it, despite population growth, longevity, and the increasing costs of new drugs and technology, the following is true for most people:
1. They can see a GP on the day, if their problem is urgent.
2. If they go to a hospital A&E, over 85% will be seen by a doctor and admitted (or discharged) within four hours.
3. About 95% of people with suspected cancer will see an appropriate specialist, with the major tests already done, within two weeks.
4. If you have a heart attack or stroke, you will see a specialist and have therapy within hours.
He also comments on cost positively by stating that at £110bn a year, it costs roughly £1,500 per person a year, compared to the £1,000 spent per person a year on alcohol.
I'm no expert so have no idea on the validity of the figures but it doesn't sound like a collapse of the system.
2. 15% of people attending an A&E and not seeing a doctor for more than four hours is shameful.
3. One person in 20 who is suspected of suffering from cancer does not see an appropriate specialist for over a fortnight. That is a sign of a service in crisis.
4. If you have a heart attack or stroke and you're seen within hours instead of minutes, your condition could be fatally compromised.
These look like four hand-picked data points that demonstrate how badly and dangerously underfunded the NHS is currently.6 -
The fact is all these people defending the Tories record on the NHS would be apoplectic if it was Labour's record.
If you're still voting Tory, would you like to justify why preventable death amongst the poor, the disabled and the young is rising under the Tories?10 -
No idea. I'm doing what loads of others do and quoting statements from the media, on this occasion from a Labour publication which I read every week.Chizz said:
1. Being able to see a GP when you have an URGENT reason to do so should be the bare minimum anyone should expect.stonemuse said:
I just read comments from an NHS Consultant ... in the New Statesman, definitely not a Tory publication ...that despite hearing for years that the NHS is close to collapse, he believes it works for most people, most of the time.stonemuse said:
Strange, I have similar experience with no problems. Must be very fortunate.Covered End said:
Fook me I must be hallucinating. I could have sworn that myself & my family have had 10 hospital visits in the past 12 months. Doctor ..........Fiiish said:2010 - "NHS safe in Tory hands."
2017 - English hospitals effectively shut down
As he puts it, despite population growth, longevity, and the increasing costs of new drugs and technology, the following is true for most people:
1. They can see a GP on the day, if their problem is urgent.
2. If they go to a hospital A&E, over 85% will be seen by a doctor and admitted (or discharged) within four hours.
3. About 95% of people with suspected cancer will see an appropriate specialist, with the major tests already done, within two weeks.
4. If you have a heart attack or stroke, you will see a specialist and have therapy within hours.
He also comments on cost positively by stating that at £110bn a year, it costs roughly £1,500 per person a year, compared to the £1,000 spent per person a year on alcohol.
I'm no expert so have no idea on the validity of the figures but it doesn't sound like a collapse of the system.
2. 15% of people attending an A&E and not seeing a doctor for more than four hours is shameful.
3. One person in 20 who is suspected of suffering from cancer does not see an appropriate specialist for over a fortnight. That is a sign of a service in crisis.
4. If you have a heart attack or stroke and you're seen within hours instead of minutes, your condition could be fatally compromised.
These look like four hand-picked data points that demonstrate how badly and dangerously underfunded the NHS is currently.
My experience of the NHS over the last 2-3 years, over which I have unfortunately had to use them frequently, is that they are definitely not in collapse. Big problems, absolutely no doubt ... but not collapse.1 -
In the eighties when everything was being cut (from a far higher base) it took five - ten years for the cracks to appear and then widen into chasms. At the moment a lot of people in the NHS and voluntary/charity sector are working hard to ensure it doesn't collapse.
People are working longer hours and making do with old equipment, gaps are being filled and corners are being cut. Eventually the people doing this will crash and leave the profession. The crisis in recruitment will exacerbate the problem. The system will crash.
A analogy is when you look at us under Chris Powell, a good team was built that punched above its weight. When Duchatelet took over we could all see the watering down in quality of the team but the spirit of the players, the support of the fans and the coaches & staff left behind kept things ticking over and we managed to stay up for a few seasons until finally we reached the tipping point of where all the crap that went on overcame the good things that remained. Relegation was inevitable consequence and anybody with half a brain could see it coming.
Duchatelet = May
Meire = Hunt (there really is no leadership at the top of the NHS at the moment, May knows this but Hunt keeps his job because he is Tory royalty)
Robinson = Simon Stevens, desperately trying to do his job despite broken promises and diminishing resources (OK the gobby bit doesn't stand up but...)
Over inflated contracts and terms to no hope players = over inflated contracts to private suppliers
Out of contract players = over reliance on agency staff
At odds with the fan-base = disaffected staff
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There may not be collapse, but how much of a step is it between big problems and collapse? The Tories seem to be cool about public services being close to the edge. Prisons are in crisis, class sizes rising, waiting times increasing, roads crumbling and so forth. Personally I think services are clearly diminishing and the Tories policy seems to be to let them crumble away whilst pretending they're getting better.stonemuse said:
No idea. I'm doing what loads of others do and quoting statements from the media, on this occasion from a Labour publication which I read every week.Chizz said:
1. Being able to see a GP when you have an URGENT reason to do so should be the bare minimum anyone should expect.stonemuse said:
I just read comments from an NHS Consultant ... in the New Statesman, definitely not a Tory publication ...that despite hearing for years that the NHS is close to collapse, he believes it works for most people, most of the time.stonemuse said:
Strange, I have similar experience with no problems. Must be very fortunate.Covered End said:
Fook me I must be hallucinating. I could have sworn that myself & my family have had 10 hospital visits in the past 12 months. Doctor ..........Fiiish said:2010 - "NHS safe in Tory hands."
2017 - English hospitals effectively shut down
As he puts it, despite population growth, longevity, and the increasing costs of new drugs and technology, the following is true for most people:
1. They can see a GP on the day, if their problem is urgent.
2. If they go to a hospital A&E, over 85% will be seen by a doctor and admitted (or discharged) within four hours.
3. About 95% of people with suspected cancer will see an appropriate specialist, with the major tests already done, within two weeks.
4. If you have a heart attack or stroke, you will see a specialist and have therapy within hours.
He also comments on cost positively by stating that at £110bn a year, it costs roughly £1,500 per person a year, compared to the £1,000 spent per person a year on alcohol.
I'm no expert so have no idea on the validity of the figures but it doesn't sound like a collapse of the system.
2. 15% of people attending an A&E and not seeing a doctor for more than four hours is shameful.
3. One person in 20 who is suspected of suffering from cancer does not see an appropriate specialist for over a fortnight. That is a sign of a service in crisis.
4. If you have a heart attack or stroke and you're seen within hours instead of minutes, your condition could be fatally compromised.
These look like four hand-picked data points that demonstrate how badly and dangerously underfunded the NHS is currently.
My experience of the NHS over the last 2-3 years, over which I have unfortunately had to use them frequently, is that they are definitely not in collapse. Big problems, absolutely no doubt ... but not collapse.4 -
Nhs is run on freebies, my mum has just retired from the L&D and apparently they have over 500 full time volunteers... times that by every hospital in the country and it's a scandal.
Take away the freebies and cheaper foreign workers and you have no NHS3 -
Prisons are a good example and prison officers are hardly the bastion of socialism, so are unlikey to be making this up. But the coalition take over lay off thousands of staff, the prisons go to shit and become even more dangerous to work in.
Via millions paid out in redundancy and millions more paid out in recruitment and training the government decide to recruit thousands of extra prison officers.
Strong and Stable my arse.
6 - Sponsored links:
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Seth, I was only commenting on the fact that people in the media and on here were stating that the NHS was in collapse and effectively shut down. This is not true.seth plum said:
There may not be collapse, but how much of a step is it between big problems and collapse? The Tories seem to be cool about public services being close to the edge. Prisons are in crisis, class sizes rising, waiting times increasing, roads crumbling and so forth. Personally I think services are clearly diminishing and the Tories policy seems to be to let them crumble away whilst pretending they're getting better.stonemuse said:
No idea. I'm doing what loads of others do and quoting statements from the media, on this occasion from a Labour publication which I read every week.Chizz said:
1. Being able to see a GP when you have an URGENT reason to do so should be the bare minimum anyone should expect.stonemuse said:
I just read comments from an NHS Consultant ... in the New Statesman, definitely not a Tory publication ...that despite hearing for years that the NHS is close to collapse, he believes it works for most people, most of the time.stonemuse said:
Strange, I have similar experience with no problems. Must be very fortunate.Covered End said:
Fook me I must be hallucinating. I could have sworn that myself & my family have had 10 hospital visits in the past 12 months. Doctor ..........Fiiish said:2010 - "NHS safe in Tory hands."
2017 - English hospitals effectively shut down
As he puts it, despite population growth, longevity, and the increasing costs of new drugs and technology, the following is true for most people:
1. They can see a GP on the day, if their problem is urgent.
2. If they go to a hospital A&E, over 85% will be seen by a doctor and admitted (or discharged) within four hours.
3. About 95% of people with suspected cancer will see an appropriate specialist, with the major tests already done, within two weeks.
4. If you have a heart attack or stroke, you will see a specialist and have therapy within hours.
He also comments on cost positively by stating that at £110bn a year, it costs roughly £1,500 per person a year, compared to the £1,000 spent per person a year on alcohol.
I'm no expert so have no idea on the validity of the figures but it doesn't sound like a collapse of the system.
2. 15% of people attending an A&E and not seeing a doctor for more than four hours is shameful.
3. One person in 20 who is suspected of suffering from cancer does not see an appropriate specialist for over a fortnight. That is a sign of a service in crisis.
4. If you have a heart attack or stroke and you're seen within hours instead of minutes, your condition could be fatally compromised.
These look like four hand-picked data points that demonstrate how badly and dangerously underfunded the NHS is currently.
My experience of the NHS over the last 2-3 years, over which I have unfortunately had to use them frequently, is that they are definitely not in collapse. Big problems, absolutely no doubt ... but not collapse.
There is no need for exaggeration and hyperbole.1 -
As long as the Tories can ignore problems with public services, they will.1
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Andrew Neil ripping the former (edited: thanks @EveshamAddick ) Housing Minister, Brandon Lewis, apart this morning following the policy release of building more homes.
60,000 affordable homes built in their first year in power in 2010-11 which had dropped to just 32,000 last year. Policy released with no timescale, no costing and, in Neil's words, "no credibility".0 -
"This is a total shambles. Jeremy Corbyn's plans to unleash chaos on Britain have been revealed.stonemuse said:There is no need for exaggeration and hyperbole.
"The commitments in this dossier will rack up tens of billions of extra borrowing for our families and will put Brexit negotiations at risk."
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Yes but this is the point Stonemuse was making.
Any type of hyperbole and exaggeration has nothing to contribute to serious debate. Regardless where it is from.4 -
Brandon Lewis was last housing minister. Current one is Gavin Barwell. They change every year or so, hence no consistent long term strategy. Hence shambles.TelMc32 said:Andrew Neil ripping the Housing Minister, Brandon Lewis, apart this morning following the policy release of building more homes.
60,000 affordable homes built in their first year in power in 2010-11 which had dropped to just 32,000 last year. Policy released with no timescale, no costing and, in Neil's words, "no credibility".
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Proves my point.Fiiish said:
"This is a total shambles. Jeremy Corbyn's plans to unleash chaos on Britain have been revealed.stonemuse said:There is no need for exaggeration and hyperbole.
"The commitments in this dossier will rack up tens of billions of extra borrowing for our families and will put Brexit negotiations at risk."0 -
I'll be voting for whoever I like.Fiiish said:The fact is all these people defending the Tories record on the NHS would be apoplectic if it was Labour's record.
If you're still voting Tory, would you like to justify why preventable death amongst the poor, the disabled and the young is rising under the Tories?
Cannot stand the demonisation of normal, respectable people who carry perfectly legitimate options.4 -
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Never thought I see you defending Corbyn supporters or is it just conservatives who are normal, respectable and hold legitimate opinions?cafcnick1992 said:
I'll be voting for whoever I like.Fiiish said:The fact is all these people defending the Tories record on the NHS would be apoplectic if it was Labour's record.
If you're still voting Tory, would you like to justify why preventable death amongst the poor, the disabled and the young is rising under the Tories?
Cannot stand the demonisation of normal, respectable people who carry perfectly legitimate options.8 - Sponsored links:
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And the police service. Labour invested in police numbers = crime went down.Cordoban Addick said:Prisons are a good example and prison officers are hardly the bastion of socialism, so are unlikey to be making this up. But the coalition take over lay off thousands of staff, the prisons go to shit and become even more dangerous to work in.
Via millions paid out in redundancy and millions more paid out in recruitment and training the government decide to recruit thousands of extra prison officers.
Strong and Stable my arse.
When the coalition came in in 2010, they saw reduced crime figures and then used that as an opportunity to cut police numbers = crime going back up.6 -
What point ? I can see that the most pro tight wing Tory newspapers will make stuff up & exaggerate to the maximum & do their utmost to support Tories. There may be another point.stonemuse said:
Proves my point.Fiiish said:
"This is a total shambles. Jeremy Corbyn's plans to unleash chaos on Britain have been revealed.stonemuse said:There is no need for exaggeration and hyperbole.
"The commitments in this dossier will rack up tens of billions of extra borrowing for our families and will put Brexit negotiations at risk."
IMO. Tories don't do positive campaigning. Australian Crosby does unremittingly cynical & negative campaigns. There is no positive discussion of policies that may benefit the country. It is just negative shouting headlines. Hammer home a basic slogan, make pledges that they have no intention of keeping to, keep May's statements minimal, no proper discussion or debate & keep critical questions away.
Blame all the problems on migration / EC / poor people, anyone else apart from themselves.
It makes for terrible policies & makes it harder to find solutions to solve health, migration, housing, education & trade questions. These problems don't get solved. Life becomes evermore stressful & pressurised. The country can be better but it will not get better under the Tories. That's ok. There will always be someone else to blame.12 -
It's more that people are quite happy to defend the Tories on stuff like the NHS cyberattack (even though the Home Secretary came out today and said they knew the NHS has been vulnerable to cyberattack for a while but they refused to do anything about it. Pretty damning for whoever the previous Home Secretary was...oh wait) so I'd like to see some defences for some of the other failures the Tories are responsible for. Do people just silently accept that they are justifying these failures when they vote Tory, convince themselves there isn't a problem, or are they just ignorant?cafcnick1992 said:
I'll be voting for whoever I like.Fiiish said:The fact is all these people defending the Tories record on the NHS would be apoplectic if it was Labour's record.
If you're still voting Tory, would you like to justify why preventable death amongst the poor, the disabled and the young is rising under the Tories?
Cannot stand the demonisation of normal, respectable people who carry perfectly legitimate options.8 -
You know exactly which point, I stated it clearly enough.vff said:
What point ? I can see that the most pro tight wing Tory newspapers will make stuff up & exaggerate to the maximum & do their utmost to support Tories. There may be another point.stonemuse said:
Proves my point.Fiiish said:
"This is a total shambles. Jeremy Corbyn's plans to unleash chaos on Britain have been revealed.stonemuse said:There is no need for exaggeration and hyperbole.
"The commitments in this dossier will rack up tens of billions of extra borrowing for our families and will put Brexit negotiations at risk."
IMO. Tories don't do positive campaigning. Australian Crosby does unremittingly cynical & negative campaigns. There is no positive discussion of policies that may benefit the country. It is just negative shouting headlines. Hammer home a basic slogan, make pledges that they have no intention of keeping to, keep May's statements minimal, no proper discussion or debate & keep critical questions away.
Blame all the problems on migration / EC / poor people, anyone else apart from themselves.
It makes for terrible policies & makes it harder to find solutions to solve health, housing, education & trade questions. These problems don't get solved. Life becomes evermore stressful & pressurised. The country can be better but it will not get better under the Tories. That's ok. There will always be someone else to blame.
No exaggeration nor hyperbole ... from either side.0 -
I'd make two points.Fiiish said:
It's more that people are quite happy to defend the Tories on stuff like the NHS cyberattack (even though the Home Secretary came out today and said they knew the NHS has been vulnerable to cyberattack for a while but they refused to do anything about it. Pretty damning for whoever the previous Home Secretary was...oh wait) so I'd like to see some defences for some of the other failures the Tories are responsible for. Do people just silently accept that they are justifying these failures when they vote Tory, convince themselves there isn't a problem, or are they just ignorant?cafcnick1992 said:
I'll be voting for whoever I like.Fiiish said:The fact is all these people defending the Tories record on the NHS would be apoplectic if it was Labour's record.
If you're still voting Tory, would you like to justify why preventable death amongst the poor, the disabled and the young is rising under the Tories?
Cannot stand the demonisation of normal, respectable people who carry perfectly legitimate options.
1) the recent cyber attack is not the fault of bloody Jeremy Hunt is it. Any computer system running a slightly out of date version of Windows was vulnerable. This has been demonstrated by the number of private sector firms that have been affected. Besides, when the Conservatives tried to update the NHS system a few years ago, they were widely criticised!!
2) it is always easy to criticise the government in power. The NHS would have the same issues under Labour. Massively increasing population and a NHS which doesn't even check who it is treating. It's a massive black hole.1 -
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Just because other people were negligent too doesn't excuse the Tories.cafcnick1992 said:
I'd make two points.Fiiish said:
It's more that people are quite happy to defend the Tories on stuff like the NHS cyberattack (even though the Home Secretary came out today and said they knew the NHS has been vulnerable to cyberattack for a while but they refused to do anything about it. Pretty damning for whoever the previous Home Secretary was...oh wait) so I'd like to see some defences for some of the other failures the Tories are responsible for. Do people just silently accept that they are justifying these failures when they vote Tory, convince themselves there isn't a problem, or are they just ignorant?cafcnick1992 said:
I'll be voting for whoever I like.Fiiish said:The fact is all these people defending the Tories record on the NHS would be apoplectic if it was Labour's record.
If you're still voting Tory, would you like to justify why preventable death amongst the poor, the disabled and the young is rising under the Tories?
Cannot stand the demonisation of normal, respectable people who carry perfectly legitimate options.
1) the recent cyber attack is not the fault of bloody Jeremy Hunt is it. Any computer system running a slightly out of date version of Windows was vulnerable. This has been demonstrated by the number of private sector firms that have been affected. Besides, when the Conservatives tried to update the NHS system a few years ago, they were widely criticised!!
2) it is always easy to criticise the government in power. The NHS would have the same issues under Labour. Massively increasing population and a NHS which doesn't even check who it is treating. It's a massive black hole.3 -
Anyone see Emily "Sausage Fingers" Thornberry on The Marr Show this morning? What a hoot0
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The Tories' new slogan going by some of the responses on here should be 'it's always someone else's fault'.
Can't blame Tories for NHS being mismanaged
Poor people are too stupid to deserve a decent benefits system
Can't be blamed for a bad Brexit deal, it's the rest of the EU that are being the problem
There's literally nothing wrong in the country that we can apparently blame the Tories for, it's always someone else.7 -
I thought her pointing out the fact that Fallon had attended Assad's election party in 2007 was great, myself.i_b_b_o_r_g said:Anyone see Emily "Sausage Fingers" Thornberry on The Marr Show this morning? What a hoot
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