So today on a very quiet Wednesday in the middle of a Parliamentary break we have.
Executive salaries are increasing by 11% annually, so much for all in it together. Average salaries are still rising lower than inflation.
Rail fares will increase by 3.2% in January following a 3.9% increase this year, both higher than inflation. Rail travel for most is abysmal.
The amount of people from poorer postcodes attending Russell Group universities has barely changed rubbishing Tory claims that they would double it.
Boris still remains unpunished/not apologised despite his dog whistle political speeches appealing to the right wing of his party.
And in the background.
Brexit is still a shit show.
The NHS is still collapsing.
Schools and education are still struggling. Local democracy is being removed with the academyisation of schools
Several Tory councils have gone bust, most others are facing further cuts meaning our most vulnerable will suffer.
The Tories clearly have no need to change if the people continue to give them a free ride.
Spot on Cordoban. I also echo @seth plum 's comments about the Tory Leadership. They are vile human beings who I wouldn't even acknowledge were they in the same room as me. I find them abhorrent.
The Tories won 331 parliamentary seats(out of 650) on a 36.9% vote in 2015 - our electoral system perpetuates the current two party system. Seems unlikely anything will change dramatically in the near future.
It seems likely to me the UK will swing further to the right once we leave the EU. What will our economic model be?
I’m sure all of that is true and a lot more, so why are they allowed to get away with it? Simple answer because they can (to a lesser extent than previously mind).
I don’t agree they are being given a free ride by the public, more that currently more people are happy to ride the Tory horse than the Labour Pony.
Labour made good ground at the last election, enough to curb the Tories a little, but have been unable to make further headway if indeed they haven’t gone backwards as it appears.
How much of the last election was a protest vote whether Brexit or anti austerity only time will tell. But I can’t see anything but much of the same slightly watered down for the next 3-4 years and unless the opposition sort themselves out then for a lot longer.
I, perhaps surprisingly, agree with most of what you have written. I would add that at the moment the broader Tory movement is throwing the kitchen sink at Corbyn, that seems to be scaring off enough people to make the polls edit: not look better for Labour. We must also take into account the rise in Labour heartlands (2015 & 2017) of the SNP which probably knocks a couple of % points of the national polling.
But if Labour are so shit and the Tories are not being given an easy ride where is the increase in the polling for the Lib Dems, The Greens and UKIP? Surely disaffected Tories would go elsewhere.
The NHS is undoubtedly in trouble, but £140 billion went into it last year. A record amount, but still not enough. Tories increase spending less than Labour, and I don't understand why Lib Dems couldn't push for greater spending when they had the chance, though they call economic downturn as a reason. If I was dismantling something I would cut spending, not increase it. So, guilty of not increasing spending more, but that isn't dismantling it.
In short.
Inflation Ageing population Asking the NHS to cover more 'care' with the same amount of money The collapse of social care and the knock on costs Top down reform of the NHS including CCGs which are now quietly being dismantled Poor decisions with external private contracts - Carillion, Capita et al The costs of agency staff increasing because we stopped training our own to 'save money'
People rightly expect and now demand the latest and best treatments. New techniques come with new equipment. Better imaging leads to better diagnosis. Better tests lead to better diagnosis. Better diagnosis means better treatment and outcomes.
Just like everything else in life better in the main means latest and latest means most expensive. More complicated equipment need more complicated training. More complicated training means more expense. You get my drift.
Even fifteen years ago diagnostic and treatment technology changed and moved relatively slowly. Kit lasted because techniques changed slowly. Now the technological advancements are breathtaking. By way of example hospital might decide to replace its CT Scanner. Looks at what is available that suits and is best value. Goes through a procurement process and gets the new scanner installed. 15 years ago the scanner would be expected to be in service for perhaps 12 - 15 years. Now it will be effectively obsolete in 8. The replacements because they are cutting edge and do far more than before cost more. Again you get my drift.
The argument that more is being spent is fine but if what is being spent doesn’t provide what’s required in a modern healthcare setting what exactly is the choice ? Third world care or spend more ?
What successive governments have underhandedly set about is to strangle services and when those services can’t cope they bring in assistance from the private sector. Someone is making a profit. Ask how many government and opposition MP’s or family have shares in private healthcare companies. The public are slowly being programmed to accept that the NHS can’t cope. Crisis after crisis. Eventually the fruit will be ripe enough to bring in massive privatisation and the public will shrug.
These are truths. Trust me I know what I’m talking about on this one. Probably only on this one.
People rightly expect and now demand the latest and best treatments. New techniques come with new equipment. Better imaging leads to better diagnosis. Better tests lead to better diagnosis. Better diagnosis means better treatment and outcomes.
Just like everything else in life better in the main means latest and latest means most expensive. More complicated equipment need more complicated training. More complicated training means more expense. You get my drift.
Even fifteen years ago diagnostic and treatment technology changed and moved relatively slowly. Kit lasted because techniques changed slowly. Now the technological advancements are breathtaking. By way of example hospital might decide to replace its CT Scanner. Looks at what is available that suits and is best value. Goes through a procurement process and gets the new scanner installed. 15 years ago the scanner would be expected to be in service for perhaps 12 - 15 years. Now it will be effectively obsolete in 8. The replacements because they are cutting edge and do far more than before cost more. Again you get my drift.
The argument that more is being spent is fine but if what is being spent doesn’t provide what’s required in a modern healthcare setting what exactly is the choice ? Third world care or spend more ?
What successive governments have underhandedly set about is to strangle services and when those services can’t cope they bring in assistance from the private sector. Someone is making a profit. Ask how many government and opposition MP’s or family have shares in private healthcare companies. The public are slowly being programmed to accept that the NHS can’t cope. Crisis after crisis. Eventually the fruit will be ripe enough to bring in massive privatisation and the public will shrug.
These are truths. Trust me I know what I’m talking about on this one. Probably only on this one.
MPs from all parties have been lining their pockets with consultancy roles etc in healthcare. The NHS won't cope if it continues being mismanaged financially.
We're still living with ludicrous PFI schemes which politicians have never been held accountable for.
My advice to anyone starting out in life is to get medical insurance. Going forward healthcare in the UK is going to be a nightmare.
You can pay medical insurance for 30 years, it gets too expensive as you age so you stop, get ill, and 3 decades of contributions count for nothing. Buy to Let in a poor area interest only at a level to cover mortgage with some of the MI money and bank the balance. Or just save it. No poor insurance companies. Ever heard of one go bust? Don't insure unless compulsory.
My advice to anyone starting out in life is to get medical insurance. Going forward healthcare in the UK is going to be a nightmare.
You can pay medical insurance for 30 years, it gets too expensive as you age so you stop, get ill, and 3 decades of contributions count for nothing. Buy to Let in a poor area interest only at a level to cover mortgage with some of the MI money and bank the balance. Or just save it.
Everyone, please disperse. Corbyn is the real racist. End of discussion.
No, Corbyn is just one of many racists but his fanboys will excuse any of his actions supporting terrorists, reject any evidence of him supporting racist, homophobic, misogynist terrorists and believe every ever more incredible excuses "I was there but didn't take part" being the latest.
None so blind as those who refuse to see.
Cue the usual "Whataboutery", " he needs to speak to these terrorists to bring peace", "it's all a smear", etc etc etc
Who the fuck is he? And who'd have thought we'd ever see the words Corbyn and passionate in the same sentence? So, Corbyn has a higher anti-racism passion status than, say, Jessie Jackson and Rosa Parks - I don't think so.
The attitude people have to Corbyn is one thing but this thread title is about the Tories.
In my view anybody with a functioning brain should be able to see the Tory 'leadership' group of main players are either morons, self serving morons, betrayers of friends, betrayers of peop!e, money driven and money grabbing, manipulators of latent racism, overtly racist themselves, heartless without any capacity to empathise, out and out liars, and nurturers of contempt and distain for others, and people who would happily see others exploited for their own gain.
In my view people who vote Tory are enthusiastic allies of many of the attitudes I have listed above. In my view they are driven by selfish destructive greed and hatred and In the Tories they have a monster to admire.
In terms of measurement and proportion, the wrongs of Corbyn are a flea bite compared to the savaging of the nation by the Tories in my opinion.
Still....Diane Abbot hey?
Fair post Seth. But I think more misguided in many cases.
And the nice red background makes it doubly true. Or not, possibly. In any event there are 3.6mn households in the UK that qualify for millionaire status (after deduction of any o/s mortgages) out of a total 26mn households. That's a fairly hefty 14% and as voters (and voters that actually vote) I suspect the Tories think they need looking after a bit.
So you choose to shoot the messenger and ignore the message. Well played @cafcfan
That's because the message is bogus. It's just as false/biased a view about Corbyn as all the stuff at the other end of the spectrum. Somewhere in the middle is the truth - that he's just a second-rate politician who has achieved very little in however many decades he's been stealing a living.
Here's an extract from Hansard dated 2nd May 1985 (my emphasis).
Mr. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) Has the right hon. Gentleman seen early-day motion 645, [That this House profoundly regrets the proposed visit of President Reagan to the German Military Cemetery at Bitburg, containing the remains of Nazi SS stormtroopers; regards the visit as an offence to the memories of Jews and so many others persecuted and murdered by the Nazis, and as insensitive and ill-advised; and calls on the President, in the name of good relations between our countries and between all the allies in the war against Nazism, to cancel that visit.]
which has been signed by a large number of Members, and early-day motion 658,
[That this House believes that there can never be any reconciliation with fascism; therefore condemns the British Broadcasting Corporation Newsnight programme of 30th April for its lengthy and uncritical coverage of the collection of Nazi memorabilia by wealthy people; in the United States of America and Britain; believes that such programmes can only serve to make Nazism respectable; and further believes that the memory of the Jewish people, gypsies, Communists, trade unionists and gay people who were murdered by the Nazis and the millions of Soviet, British, American and other peoples on every continent who died to defeat fascism should not be defiled by any attempted rehabilitation into respectability of fascism.]
both of which concern the memory of the people who died fighting Fascism and the disgraceful intention of President Reagan to visit Bitburg cemetery? Will the Leader of the House take this opportunity to give the Government's view of the President's intention to visit that cemetery of SS memory?
Will the right hon. Gentleman also arrange for a special debate next week to consider the rise of Fascism and 419 racism now occurring in many European countries and the need to condemn utterly all that went on in Nazi Germany and ensure that such tyrany can never arise again, and the need to ensure that proper memory is accorded to all who died fighting Nazism, whether they were Russian, British, French or from any other country in the world?
Mr. Biffen My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has already commented on President Reagan's proposed visit to Bitburg cemetery, and I have nothing to add on that. On the wider issue, no provisions have been made for the debate requested by the hon. Gentleman, but those who view totalitarianism with such great hostility would be more convincing if their attitude stretched across the whole spectrum
So, on the one hand Mr C sees visiting a war cemetery (which happens to contain bodies of dead SS troops) as insensitive and ill-advised. Yet on the other he does not see his personal visit to a graveyard that contains bodies of dead terrorists as also ill-advised and insensitive? How does that work? I reckon John Biffin had him down to a tee.
My advice to anyone starting out in life is to get medical insurance. Going forward healthcare in the UK is going to be a nightmare.
You can pay medical insurance for 30 years, it gets too expensive as you age so you stop, get ill, and 3 decades of contributions count for nothing. Buy to Let in a poor area interest only at a level to cover mortgage with some of the MI money and bank the balance. Or just save it. No poor insurance companies. Ever heard of one go bust? Don't insure unless compulsory.
Plenty have gone bust over the years, although in recent times you rarely hear it as they just tend to be bought up by another when they get into difficulty.
Life insurance isn’t compulsory but a widely bought product for good reason.
Everyone, please disperse. Corbyn is the real racist. End of discussion.
No, Corbyn is just one of many racists but his fanboys will excuse any of his actions supporting terrorists, reject any evidence of him supporting racist, homophobic, misogynist terrorists and believe every ever more incredible excuses "I was there but didn't take part" being the latest.
None so blind as those who refuse to see.
Cue the usual "Whataboutery", " he needs to speak to these terrorists to bring peace", "it's all a smear", etc etc etc
Who the fuck is he? And who'd have thought we'd ever see the words Corbyn and passionate in the same sentence? So, Corbyn has a higher anti-racism passion status than, say, Jessie Jackson and Rosa Parks - I don't think so.
The attitude people have to Corbyn is one thing but this thread title is about the Tories.
In my view anybody with a functioning brain should be able to see the Tory 'leadership' group of main players are either morons, self serving morons, betrayers of friends, betrayers of peop!e, money driven and money grabbing, manipulators of latent racism, overtly racist themselves, heartless without any capacity to empathise, out and out liars, and nurturers of contempt and distain for others, and people who would happily see others exploited for their own gain.
In my view people who vote Tory are enthusiastic allies of many of the attitudes I have listed above. In my view they are driven by selfish destructive greed and hatred and In the Tories they have a monster to admire.
In terms of measurement and proportion, the wrongs of Corbyn are a flea bite compared to the savaging of the nation by the Tories in my opinion.
Still....Diane Abbot hey?
Fair post Seth. But I think more misguided in many cases.
And the nice red background makes it doubly true. Or not, possibly. In any event there are 3.6mn households in the UK that qualify for millionaire status (after deduction of any o/s mortgages) out of a total 26mn households. That's a fairly hefty 14% and as voters (and voters that actually vote) I suspect the Tories think they need looking after a bit.
So you choose to shoot the messenger and ignore the message. Well played @cafcfan
That's because the message is bogus. It's just as false/biased a view about Corbyn as all the stuff at the other end of the spectrum. Somewhere in the middle is the truth - that he's just a second-rate politician who has achieved very little in however many decades he's been stealing a living.
Here's an extract from Hansard dated 2nd May 1985 (my emphasis).
Mr. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) Has the right hon. Gentleman seen early-day motion 645, [That this House profoundly regrets the proposed visit of President Reagan to the German Military Cemetery at Bitburg, containing the remains of Nazi SS stormtroopers; regards the visit as an offence to the memories of Jews and so many others persecuted and murdered by the Nazis, and as insensitive and ill-advised; and calls on the President, in the name of good relations between our countries and between all the allies in the war against Nazism, to cancel that visit.]
which has been signed by a large number of Members, and early-day motion 658,
[That this House believes that there can never be any reconciliation with fascism; therefore condemns the British Broadcasting Corporation Newsnight programme of 30th April for its lengthy and uncritical coverage of the collection of Nazi memorabilia by wealthy people; in the United States of America and Britain; believes that such programmes can only serve to make Nazism respectable; and further believes that the memory of the Jewish people, gypsies, Communists, trade unionists and gay people who were murdered by the Nazis and the millions of Soviet, British, American and other peoples on every continent who died to defeat fascism should not be defiled by any attempted rehabilitation into respectability of fascism.]
both of which concern the memory of the people who died fighting Fascism and the disgraceful intention of President Reagan to visit Bitburg cemetery? Will the Leader of the House take this opportunity to give the Government's view of the President's intention to visit that cemetery of SS memory?
Will the right hon. Gentleman also arrange for a special debate next week to consider the rise of Fascism and 419 racism now occurring in many European countries and the need to condemn utterly all that went on in Nazi Germany and ensure that such tyrany can never arise again, and the need to ensure that proper memory is accorded to all who died fighting Nazism, whether they were Russian, British, French or from any other country in the world?
Mr. Biffen My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has already commented on President Reagan's proposed visit to Bitburg cemetery, and I have nothing to add on that. On the wider issue, no provisions have been made for the debate requested by the hon. Gentleman, but those who view totalitarianism with such great hostility would be more convincing if their attitude stretched across the whole spectrum
So, on the one hand Mr C sees visiting a war cemetery (which happens to contain bodies of dead SS troops) as insensitive and ill-advised. Yet on the other he does not see his personal visit to a graveyard that contains bodies of dead terrorists as also ill-advised and insensitive? How does that work? I reckon John Biffin had him down to a tee.
You do know there was no dead Mossad terrorists at the cemetery he was photographed at it dont you, and in any case he wasn't laying a wreath to honour them, he was laying a wreath to honour ALL victims of terrorism. It now transpires that Tory Peer Lord Sheikh was also at the same event, I assume he is now a Terrorist sympathiser. It was more false propaganda by the right wing press. Also did you see the video of him explaining that dialogue brings peace. Sometime you have to talk to people you find unpalatable to bring peace. Its the same tac the Right wing used when accusing him of being an IRA terrorist sympathiser, after he was pictured with McGinnis and Adams, dialogue, part of the reason the process which ended up with the Good Friday agreement. If you believe this you must then believe former Defence secretary Fallon met Assad to celebrate his victory, you can't have it both ways. I will add my attachment again. Thorn berry calls 'Bollocks' on Fallon. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2017/may/14/emily-thornberry-ambushes-michael-fallon-assad-meeting-video
Anyone see newsnight yesterday, when Evan Davis interviewed Chris Williamson? Basically, Williamson made the point that Corbyn was there to remember those killed in the 1985 airstrike, and that the black September terrorists were buried in Syria and not in Tunisia... fine. However, there were other people at the cemetery that the wreath was being paid for, and they were allegedly former members of black September... Not the ones buried in Syria, others from the PLO. The even the guardian pointed this out. Honesty from both sides wouldn't go amiss, I'm sick of the whole thing.
I’m sure all of that is true and a lot more, so why are they allowed to get away with it? Simple answer because they can (to a lesser extent than previously mind).
I don’t agree they are being given a free ride by the public, more that currently more people are happy to ride the Tory horse than the Labour Pony.
Labour made good ground at the last election, enough to curb the Tories a little, but have been unable to make further headway if indeed they haven’t gone backwards as it appears.
How much of the last election was a protest vote whether Brexit or anti austerity only time will tell. But I can’t see anything but much of the same slightly watered down for the next 3-4 years and unless the opposition sort themselves out then for a lot longer.
I, perhaps surprisingly, agree with most of what you have written. I would add that at the moment the broader Tory movement is throwing the kitchen sink at Corbyn, that seems to be scaring off enough people to make the polls edit: not look better for Labour. We must also take into account the rise in Labour heartlands (2015 & 2017) of the SNP which probably knocks a couple of % points of the national polling.
But if Labour are so shit and the Tories are not being given an easy ride where is the increase in the polling for the Lib Dems, The Greens and UKIP? Surely disaffected Tories would go elsewhere.
RE the last point, just from people around me (which isn’t necessarily a good example )
1. I know people who voted Labour last time who won’t again. 2. I don’t know anyone who says they voted Tory last time and won’t next. 3. The few libdem/green voters I know will vote for them again.
So my gut feel is a few move back from Labour to Tory, a few move from Tory & Labour to UKIP and/or libdem but unlikely many/any from Tory to Labour.
CAFCFan. Are you 100% sure there were terrorists buried in the Tunis cemetary that Corbyn visited? See Algarve's post above. Just cos the British press tells you, doesn't make it true.
My advice to anyone starting out in life is to get medical insurance. Going forward healthcare in the UK is going to be a nightmare.
You can pay medical insurance for 30 years, it gets too expensive as you age so you stop, get ill, and 3 decades of contributions count for nothing. Buy to Let in a poor area interest only at a level to cover mortgage with some of the MI money and bank the balance. Or just save it. No poor insurance companies. Ever heard of one go bust? Don't insure unless compulsory.
Plenty of people need good healthcare before they reach retirement. My point is that consistent good healthcare can no longer be guaranteed under the NHS. It’s a scandal but it’s sadly true. It won’t be getting better any time soon either.
Everyone, please disperse. Corbyn is the real racist. End of discussion.
No, Corbyn is just one of many racists but his fanboys will excuse any of his actions supporting terrorists, reject any evidence of him supporting racist, homophobic, misogynist terrorists and believe every ever more incredible excuses "I was there but didn't take part" being the latest.
None so blind as those who refuse to see.
Cue the usual "Whataboutery", " he needs to speak to these terrorists to bring peace", "it's all a smear", etc etc etc
Who the fuck is he? And who'd have thought we'd ever see the words Corbyn and passionate in the same sentence? So, Corbyn has a higher anti-racism passion status than, say, Jessie Jackson and Rosa Parks - I don't think so.
The attitude people have to Corbyn is one thing but this thread title is about the Tories.
In my view anybody with a functioning brain should be able to see the Tory 'leadership' group of main players are either morons, self serving morons, betrayers of friends, betrayers of peop!e, money driven and money grabbing, manipulators of latent racism, overtly racist themselves, heartless without any capacity to empathise, out and out liars, and nurturers of contempt and distain for others, and people who would happily see others exploited for their own gain.
In my view people who vote Tory are enthusiastic allies of many of the attitudes I have listed above. In my view they are driven by selfish destructive greed and hatred and In the Tories they have a monster to admire.
In terms of measurement and proportion, the wrongs of Corbyn are a flea bite compared to the savaging of the nation by the Tories in my opinion.
Still....Diane Abbot hey?
Fair post Seth. But I think more misguided in many cases.
And the nice red background makes it doubly true. Or not, possibly. In any event there are 3.6mn households in the UK that qualify for millionaire status (after deduction of any o/s mortgages) out of a total 26mn households. That's a fairly hefty 14% and as voters (and voters that actually vote) I suspect the Tories think they need looking after a bit.
So you choose to shoot the messenger and ignore the message. Well played @cafcfan
That's because the message is bogus. It's just as false/biased a view about Corbyn as all the stuff at the other end of the spectrum. Somewhere in the middle is the truth - that he's just a second-rate politician who has achieved very little in however many decades he's been stealing a living.
Here's an extract from Hansard dated 2nd May 1985 (my emphasis).
Mr. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) Has the right hon. Gentleman seen early-day motion 645, [That this House profoundly regrets the proposed visit of President Reagan to the German Military Cemetery at Bitburg, containing the remains of Nazi SS stormtroopers; regards the visit as an offence to the memories of Jews and so many others persecuted and murdered by the Nazis, and as insensitive and ill-advised; and calls on the President, in the name of good relations between our countries and between all the allies in the war against Nazism, to cancel that visit.]
which has been signed by a large number of Members, and early-day motion 658,
[That this House believes that there can never be any reconciliation with fascism; therefore condemns the British Broadcasting Corporation Newsnight programme of 30th April for its lengthy and uncritical coverage of the collection of Nazi memorabilia by wealthy people; in the United States of America and Britain; believes that such programmes can only serve to make Nazism respectable; and further believes that the memory of the Jewish people, gypsies, Communists, trade unionists and gay people who were murdered by the Nazis and the millions of Soviet, British, American and other peoples on every continent who died to defeat fascism should not be defiled by any attempted rehabilitation into respectability of fascism.]
both of which concern the memory of the people who died fighting Fascism and the disgraceful intention of President Reagan to visit Bitburg cemetery? Will the Leader of the House take this opportunity to give the Government's view of the President's intention to visit that cemetery of SS memory?
Will the right hon. Gentleman also arrange for a special debate next week to consider the rise of Fascism and 419 racism now occurring in many European countries and the need to condemn utterly all that went on in Nazi Germany and ensure that such tyrany can never arise again, and the need to ensure that proper memory is accorded to all who died fighting Nazism, whether they were Russian, British, French or from any other country in the world?
Mr. Biffen My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has already commented on President Reagan's proposed visit to Bitburg cemetery, and I have nothing to add on that. On the wider issue, no provisions have been made for the debate requested by the hon. Gentleman, but those who view totalitarianism with such great hostility would be more convincing if their attitude stretched across the whole spectrum
So, on the one hand Mr C sees visiting a war cemetery (which happens to contain bodies of dead SS troops) as insensitive and ill-advised. Yet on the other he does not see his personal visit to a graveyard that contains bodies of dead terrorists as also ill-advised and insensitive? How does that work? I reckon John Biffin had him down to a tee.
You do know there was no dead Mossad terrorists at the cemetery he was photographed at it dont you, and in any case he wasn't laying a wreath to honour them, he was laying a wreath to honour ALL victims of terrorism. It now transpires that Tory Peer Lord Sheikh was also at the same event, I assume he is now a Terrorist sympathiser. It was more false propaganda by the right wing press. Also did you see the video of him explaining that dialogue brings peace. Sometime you have to talk to people you find unpalatable to bring peace. Its the same tac the Right wing used when accusing him of being an IRA terrorist sympathiser, after he was pictured with McGinnis and Adams, dialogue, part of the reason the process which ended up with the Good Friday agreement. If you believe this you must then believe former Defence secretary Fallon met Assad to celebrate his victory, you can't have it both ways. I will add my attachment again. Thorn berry calls 'Bollocks' on Fallon. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2017/may/14/emily-thornberry-ambushes-michael-fallon-assad-meeting-video
Not sure how many more times I have to post this but I suppose the Corbyn apologists just plough on regardless with their message.
There was a wreath laying ceremony in Tunis to honour the eight terrorists killed by Mossad in Paris. Corbyn was present at THAT ceremony. He has said he was there. He also said “I don’t think I was involved”
He should not have been in attendance in my view and I don’t believe he wasn’t aware of the significance of being there.
CAFCFan. Are you 100% sure there were terrorists buried in the Tunis cemetary that Corbyn visited? See Algarve's post above. Just cos the British press tells you, doesn't make it true.
@Greenie , yes I agree no dead Mossad terrorists (and I'd have them the same category too) as the Israelis are no better, perhaps worse.
But on the one hand he says and I paraphrase must have dialogue to get peace (an admirable sentiment) but then back in the Hansard piece I refereed to he said "there can never be any reconciliation with fascism". You see the dichotomy?
And just by way of clarity you said "Tory Peer Lord Sheikh was also at the same event". Was he? I don't know. I know he was at a conference with countless others. But did he attend the wreath-laying side-show? (He also put the fact that the Tunis Govt, paid his costs in the members' interests register. Did Corbyn pay for himself?)
Corbyn is no different from many other politicians in that he is a two-faced prat with precious little intellect. That's the issue for me, all this other stuff is just confirmation that he is a tired old fool who doesn't know whether he's coming or going.
Just saw an interview with Jeremy Corbyn when questioned about the wreath laying “controversy”.
He really isn’t fit to lead the country. Not because of his presence at the conference or indeed the ceremony to lay a wreath in Paris. He’s just plain stupid.
When questioned about the wreath layed to honour PLO activists assassinated in Paris by Mossad after the Munich attacks he said and I paraphrase
“I was present at the wreath laying but I don’t think I was involved”
Advice to Jeremy. When you are in a hole at least have what you want to say already rehearsed. Stick to it and don’t suggest anything that makes you look even more stupid than people already think.
If that article is accurate then the onus is on Labour and Corbyn to release a statement to that effect.
That so many on this site and across the country are prepared to run with a Mail/Express/Telegraph campaign against Corbyn is a sign of the times.
The reality is that at the next election, the electorate will have a clear choice between Labour and the Austerity Party aka coalition of chaos. Right now the polls show this as a tie leading to a hung parliament. But who knows how Brexit, the economy, the NHS and the other priorities for the country will develop?
The irony is that this is a thread about the Tory party and yet some who obsess about Corbyn cannot stop themselves. Ultimately the conference season and the Brexit negotiations will bring some clarity to the landscape. Labour have an opportunity to update and re-align their stance on Brexit and their are several grass roots movements targetting their conference so as to shift policy in this area.
Can somebody please explaing where the Tories are going on this, the NHS, housing or education. They can't resolve their own internal differences so little chance of any progress for the nation!
It isn‘t just that though is it ?
Corbyn is a divisive person. He’s divided his own Parliamentary Party to the extent that the majority would see him gone. Certainly the right wing press will do their worst (see my post above), they always do. The point with Corbyn is that for many. Me included he is the sole reason that labour are not romping ahead in the polls. The Tories are making a mess of practically every single sphere where they influence. They score own goal after own goal. They should be approaching the point where the electorate will sling them out. Just like John Majors conservative government and Gordon Browns Labour government. Moribund. However. They are still very much in the game. It’s unbelievable. He’s a hypocrite and ideologue that will see the complete ruin of the Labour Party that people feel comfortable voting for. I agree a hung parliament is very possible and it’s not beyond the realms that JC might indeed have the opportunity to form a government. The point is, at this juncture he should be a shoe in.
I thought more Labour members vote for Corbyn than any other Labour leader. I also think that some of the enormous amount of crap (lies) thrown at him by the Right Wing press, has stuck. Ive got mates who still think that Corbyn is an IRA terrorist FFS. These are the same people who, when it was pointed out to them, that Nelson Mandela was called a terrorist, laughed. So when you get people blindly believing without looking/checking, you end up with a web of lies that are believed.
Just out of an interest in viscosity in general, does the shit thrown at him from, say, Former Barrow Labour MP, John Woodcock, or the Labour MP for Barking, or the Labour Shadow Chancellor, or Tony Benns grand daughter, or Tom Watson, Deputy Labour Leader, or Kezia Dugdale, former Scottish Labour Party leader, or Ian Murray Shadow Scottish minister etc etc, doesn't stick? Or are they all right wing liars?
More right wing media bias...this time from Brown. Beyond parody. As reported in the hated BBC
Image caption Jeremy Corbyn was pictured at a wreath-laying ceremony in 2014 Gordon Brown says Jeremy Corbyn "has to change" to address concerns about anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. The former prime minister said the issue was a "running sore" that had to be dealt with. Labour has failed to endorse the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's (IHRA) definition of anti-Semitism in its entirety. And Mr Corbyn has been criticised for attending an event at a Palestinian Martyrs Cemetery in Tunis in 2014. During an appearance at the Edinburgh International Book Festival, Mr Brown was asked if he thought Mr Corbyn was a fit and proper person to be prime minister. He told the book festival audience that there was a "problem within the Labour Party with anti-Semitism" and insisted that "Jeremy Corbyn has got to change".
1. Where I went there was no baby. It was just a baby memorial. I didn't take part.
2. OK, There was a baby but I wasn't part of stealing him. I was negotiating the plight of all babies in a peaceful dialogue.
3. (When shown photos of him stealing baby). Er well yes I did steal the baby but it's all a right wing media plot. You only released the photo of me stealing the baby because Boris did something today. Yes I did lie, no wait, I miss remembered. Follow me, I'm the new messiah. My party is 100% behind me.
I’m sure all of that is true and a lot more, so why are they allowed to get away with it? Simple answer because they can (to a lesser extent than previously mind).
I don’t agree they are being given a free ride by the public, more that currently more people are happy to ride the Tory horse than the Labour Pony.
Labour made good ground at the last election, enough to curb the Tories a little, but have been unable to make further headway if indeed they haven’t gone backwards as it appears.
How much of the last election was a protest vote whether Brexit or anti austerity only time will tell. But I can’t see anything but much of the same slightly watered down for the next 3-4 years and unless the opposition sort themselves out then for a lot longer.
I, perhaps surprisingly, agree with most of what you have written. I would add that at the moment the broader Tory movement is throwing the kitchen sink at Corbyn, that seems to be scaring off enough people to make the polls edit: not look better for Labour. We must also take into account the rise in Labour heartlands (2015 & 2017) of the SNP which probably knocks a couple of % points of the national polling.
But if Labour are so shit and the Tories are not being given an easy ride where is the increase in the polling for the Lib Dems, The Greens and UKIP? Surely disaffected Tories would go elsewhere.
RE the last point, just from people around me (which isn’t necessarily a good example )
1. I know people who voted Labour last time who won’t again. 2. I don’t know anyone who says they voted Tory last time and won’t next. 3. The few libdem/green voters I know will vote for them again.
So my gut feel is a few move back from Labour to Tory, a few move from Tory & Labour to UKIP and/or libdem but unlikely many/any from Tory to Labour.
This very thread is a shining example of why that is.
It is titled "How the Tories need to change". And yet here are a number of people going on and on about an event that has no impact whatsoever on their or anyone else's life. Your old nan isn't going to die on a trolley in a hospital corridor because Jeremy Corbyn laid a wreath. A bloke with no power to change anything did something ill advised. In the background the Tories are quietly ripping the country apart, with the help of their billionaire benefactors, none of whom will be affected by the fallout, their wealth will prevent that. But lets not talk about that, lets talk about the leader of the opposition instead, or Diane Abbott. This bunch of Tories make Thatcher look reasonable, and still some of you stick up for them - it can only be because you believe their propaganda, because common sense would have you questioning everything they do?
I’m sure all of that is true and a lot more, so why are they allowed to get away with it? Simple answer because they can (to a lesser extent than previously mind).
I don’t agree they are being given a free ride by the public, more that currently more people are happy to ride the Tory horse than the Labour Pony.
Labour made good ground at the last election, enough to curb the Tories a little, but have been unable to make further headway if indeed they haven’t gone backwards as it appears.
How much of the last election was a protest vote whether Brexit or anti austerity only time will tell. But I can’t see anything but much of the same slightly watered down for the next 3-4 years and unless the opposition sort themselves out then for a lot longer.
I, perhaps surprisingly, agree with most of what you have written. I would add that at the moment the broader Tory movement is throwing the kitchen sink at Corbyn, that seems to be scaring off enough people to make the polls edit: not look better for Labour. We must also take into account the rise in Labour heartlands (2015 & 2017) of the SNP which probably knocks a couple of % points of the national polling.
But if Labour are so shit and the Tories are not being given an easy ride where is the increase in the polling for the Lib Dems, The Greens and UKIP? Surely disaffected Tories would go elsewhere.
RE the last point, just from people around me (which isn’t necessarily a good example )
1. I know people who voted Labour last time who won’t again. 2. I don’t know anyone who says they voted Tory last time and won’t next. 3. The few libdem/green voters I know will vote for them again.
So my gut feel is a few move back from Labour to Tory, a few move from Tory & Labour to UKIP and/or libdem but unlikely many/any from Tory to Labour.
This very thread is a shining example of why that is.
It is titled "How the Tories need to change". And yet here are a number of people going on and on about an event that has no impact whatsoever on their or anyone else's life. Your old nan isn't going to die on a trolley in a hospital corridor because Jeremy Corbyn laid a wreath. A bloke with no power to change anything did something ill advised. In the background the Tories are quietly ripping the country apart, with the help of their billionaire benefactors, none of whom will be affected by the fallout, their wealth will prevent that. But lets not talk about that, lets talk about the leader of the opposition instead, or Diane Abbott. This bunch of Tories make Thatcher look reasonable, and still some of you stick up for them - it can only be because you believe their propaganda, because common sense would have you questioning everything they do?
Excellent post @Algarveaddick on the money, well if there was any money left, it would be.
While I have no love it even liking for the Tories, Corbyn's blundering is almost as damaging in its own as it makes it much less likely for them to be voted out. And yes, part of it (even a large part) is due to Tory-friendly media outlets but by God does the man give them plenty of ammunition to go after them with...
With all this media controversy about Corbyn, the Tories should be light years ahead in the polls. However maybe people are not keen on naked selfishness, greed, exploitation, corrupt use of power gained from nepotism, incompetence, equivocation, barely disguised racism, vindictiveness and the unfair distribution of scarce resources, austerity and no pretence at having any kind of recognizable or decent ideology. So Labour remain close in the polls to the Tories, when Corbyn and his associates ought to be history for promoting fairer taxes, better public services, reclaiming stuff like water and trains from the profit makers, infrastructure development for the good of the most, and a defence policy aimed at making the world more peaceful. It must be fake news out there, the Tories are polling at 90% but the left wing biased media won't tell us the truth.
It's a Corbyn controversy, not a media controversy, no matter how many times it is claimed otherwise. A coalition of CL posters would have ousted the worst party for many many years. That is why analysis of the opposition is valid on this thread.
I suppose a daily media focus on Jeremy Corbyn and his past behaviour is far more important than a daily media focus on Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe and her current nightmare. Nice one Boris, agenda manipulator supreme.
I’m sure all of that is true and a lot more, so why are they allowed to get away with it? Simple answer because they can (to a lesser extent than previously mind).
I don’t agree they are being given a free ride by the public, more that currently more people are happy to ride the Tory horse than the Labour Pony.
Labour made good ground at the last election, enough to curb the Tories a little, but have been unable to make further headway if indeed they haven’t gone backwards as it appears.
How much of the last election was a protest vote whether Brexit or anti austerity only time will tell. But I can’t see anything but much of the same slightly watered down for the next 3-4 years and unless the opposition sort themselves out then for a lot longer.
I, perhaps surprisingly, agree with most of what you have written. I would add that at the moment the broader Tory movement is throwing the kitchen sink at Corbyn, that seems to be scaring off enough people to make the polls edit: not look better for Labour. We must also take into account the rise in Labour heartlands (2015 & 2017) of the SNP which probably knocks a couple of % points of the national polling.
But if Labour are so shit and the Tories are not being given an easy ride where is the increase in the polling for the Lib Dems, The Greens and UKIP? Surely disaffected Tories would go elsewhere.
RE the last point, just from people around me (which isn’t necessarily a good example )
1. I know people who voted Labour last time who won’t again. 2. I don’t know anyone who says they voted Tory last time and won’t next. 3. The few libdem/green voters I know will vote for them again.
So my gut feel is a few move back from Labour to Tory, a few move from Tory & Labour to UKIP and/or libdem but unlikely many/any from Tory to Labour.
This very thread is a shining example of why that is.
It is titled "How the Tories need to change". And yet here are a number of people going on and on about an event that has no impact whatsoever on their or anyone else's life. Your old nan isn't going to die on a trolley in a hospital corridor because Jeremy Corbyn laid a wreath. A bloke with no power to change anything did something ill advised. In the background the Tories are quietly ripping the country apart, with the help of their billionaire benefactors, none of whom will be affected by the fallout, their wealth will prevent that. But lets not talk about that, lets talk about the leader of the opposition instead, or Diane Abbott. This bunch of Tories make Thatcher look reasonable, and still some of you stick up for them - it can only be because you believe their propaganda, because common sense would have you questioning everything they do?
Agree that the Tories are wreaking havoc and I really do hate them with a passion.
Think it’s also reasonable though to look at the bigger picture. It’s because of Corbyn and his divisive leadership and frankly ineffective opposition that we are suffering with this government’s lunatic policies and Brexit strategy.
Why I’m particularly “down” on JC is because with him as leader of The Labour Party I see the very real possibility of yet another Tory term in office. Given the complete mess of everything they touch it’s astonishing that Labour are not already the government in waiting. Clearly they are not. That’s what I find unforgivable about Corbyn. His leadership is the Tories best chance of clinging on to power.
It's a Corbyn controversy, not a media controversy, no matter how many times it is claimed otherwise. A coalition of CL posters would have ousted the worst party for many many years. That is why analysis of the opposition is valid on this thread.
So why are they not majoring on the Boris controversy, or the May's husband controversy or the Craig MacKinley expenses scandal (3 years and still no court case)?
It's not affecting anyone - but them talking about that instead of the real problems, and people falling for it is the real controversy...
Comments
But if Labour are so shit and the Tories are not being given an easy ride where is the increase in the polling for the Lib Dems, The Greens and UKIP? Surely disaffected Tories would go elsewhere.
Inflation
Ageing population
Asking the NHS to cover more 'care' with the same amount of money
The collapse of social care and the knock on costs
Top down reform of the NHS including CCGs which are now quietly being dismantled
Poor decisions with external private contracts - Carillion, Capita et al
The costs of agency staff increasing because we stopped training our own to 'save money'
Just like everything else in life better in the main means latest and latest means most expensive. More complicated equipment need more complicated training. More complicated training means more expense. You get my drift.
Even fifteen years ago diagnostic and treatment technology changed and moved relatively slowly. Kit lasted because techniques changed slowly. Now the technological advancements are breathtaking. By way of example hospital might decide to replace its CT Scanner. Looks at what is available that suits and is best value. Goes through a procurement process and gets the new scanner installed. 15 years ago the scanner would be expected to be in service for perhaps 12 - 15 years. Now it will be effectively obsolete in 8. The replacements because they are cutting edge and do far more than before cost more. Again you get my drift.
The argument that more is being spent is fine but if what is being spent doesn’t provide what’s required in a modern healthcare setting what exactly is the choice ? Third world care or spend more ?
What successive governments have underhandedly set about is to strangle services and when those services can’t cope they bring in assistance from the private sector. Someone is making a profit. Ask how many government and opposition MP’s or family have shares in private healthcare companies. The public are slowly being programmed to accept that the NHS can’t cope. Crisis after crisis. Eventually the fruit will be ripe enough to bring in massive privatisation and the public will shrug.
These are truths. Trust me I know what I’m talking about on this one. Probably only on this one.
We're still living with ludicrous PFI schemes which politicians have never been held accountable for.
Here's an extract from Hansard dated 2nd May 1985 (my emphasis).
Mr. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) Has the right hon. Gentleman seen early-day motion 645,
[That this House profoundly regrets the proposed visit of President Reagan to the German Military Cemetery at Bitburg, containing the remains of Nazi SS stormtroopers; regards the visit as an offence to the memories of Jews and so many others persecuted and murdered by the Nazis, and as insensitive and ill-advised; and calls on the President, in the name of good relations between our countries and between all the allies in the war against Nazism, to cancel that visit.]
which has been signed by a large number of Members, and early-day motion 658,
[That this House believes that there can never be any reconciliation with fascism; therefore condemns the British Broadcasting Corporation Newsnight programme of 30th April for its lengthy and uncritical coverage of the collection of Nazi memorabilia by wealthy people; in the United States of America and Britain; believes that such programmes can only serve to make Nazism respectable; and further believes that the memory of the Jewish people, gypsies, Communists, trade unionists and gay people who were murdered by the Nazis and the millions of Soviet, British, American and other peoples on every continent who died to defeat fascism should not be defiled by any attempted rehabilitation into respectability of fascism.]
both of which concern the memory of the people who died fighting Fascism and the disgraceful intention of President Reagan to visit Bitburg cemetery? Will the Leader of the House take this opportunity to give the Government's view of the President's intention to visit that cemetery of SS memory?
Will the right hon. Gentleman also arrange for a special debate next week to consider the rise of Fascism and 419 racism now occurring in many European countries and the need to condemn utterly all that went on in Nazi Germany and ensure that such tyrany can never arise again, and the need to ensure that proper memory is accorded to all who died fighting Nazism, whether they were Russian, British, French or from any other country in the world?
Mr. Biffen My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has already commented on President Reagan's proposed visit to Bitburg cemetery, and I have nothing to add on that. On the wider issue, no provisions have been made for the debate requested by the hon. Gentleman, but those who view totalitarianism with such great hostility would be more convincing if their attitude stretched across the whole spectrum
So, on the one hand Mr C sees visiting a war cemetery (which happens to contain bodies of dead SS troops) as insensitive and ill-advised. Yet on the other he does not see his personal visit to a graveyard that contains bodies of dead terrorists as also ill-advised and insensitive? How does that work? I reckon John Biffin had him down to a tee.
You've only got to read Jeremy's own twitter account and see how the views of actual Venezuelans are somewhat different from his left-wing Utopian view. https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/309065744954580992?lang=en
Life insurance isn’t compulsory but a widely bought product for good reason.
Also did you see the video of him explaining that dialogue brings peace. Sometime you have to talk to people you find unpalatable to bring peace.
Its the same tac the Right wing used when accusing him of being an IRA terrorist sympathiser, after he was pictured with McGinnis and Adams, dialogue, part of the reason the process which ended up with the Good Friday agreement.
If you believe this you must then believe former Defence secretary Fallon met Assad to celebrate his victory, you can't have it both ways.
I will add my attachment again.
Thorn berry calls 'Bollocks' on Fallon.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2017/may/14/emily-thornberry-ambushes-michael-fallon-assad-meeting-video
1. I know people who voted Labour last time who won’t again.
2. I don’t know anyone who says they voted Tory last time and won’t next.
3. The few libdem/green voters I know will vote for them again.
So my gut feel is a few move back from Labour to Tory, a few move from Tory & Labour to UKIP and/or libdem but unlikely many/any from Tory to Labour.
There was a wreath laying ceremony in Tunis to honour the eight terrorists killed by Mossad in Paris. Corbyn was present at THAT ceremony. He has said he was there. He also said “I don’t think I was involved”
He should not have been in attendance in my view and I don’t believe he wasn’t aware of the significance of being there.
@Greenie , yes I agree no dead Mossad terrorists (and I'd have them the same category too) as the Israelis are no better, perhaps worse.
But on the one hand he says and I paraphrase must have dialogue to get peace (an admirable sentiment) but then back in the Hansard piece I refereed to he said "there can never be any reconciliation with fascism". You see the dichotomy?
And just by way of clarity you said "Tory Peer Lord Sheikh was also at the same event". Was he? I don't know. I know he was at a conference with countless others. But did he attend the wreath-laying side-show? (He also put the fact that the Tunis Govt, paid his costs in the members' interests register. Did Corbyn pay for himself?)
Corbyn is no different from many other politicians in that he is a two-faced prat with precious little intellect. That's the issue for me, all this other stuff is just confirmation that he is a tired old fool who doesn't know whether he's coming or going.
Beyond parody.
As reported in the hated BBC
Image caption
Jeremy Corbyn was pictured at a wreath-laying ceremony in 2014
Gordon Brown says Jeremy Corbyn "has to change" to address concerns about anti-Semitism in the Labour Party.
The former prime minister said the issue was a "running sore" that had to be dealt with.
Labour has failed to endorse the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance's (IHRA) definition of anti-Semitism in its entirety.
And Mr Corbyn has been criticised for attending an event at a Palestinian Martyrs Cemetery in Tunis in 2014.
During an appearance at the Edinburgh International Book Festival, Mr Brown was asked if he thought Mr Corbyn was a fit and proper person to be prime minister.
He told the book festival audience that there was a "problem within the Labour Party with anti-Semitism" and insisted that "Jeremy Corbyn has got to change".
1. Where I went there was no baby. It was just
a baby memorial. I didn't take part.
2. OK, There was a baby but I wasn't part of stealing him. I was negotiating the plight of all babies in a peaceful dialogue.
3. (When shown photos of him stealing baby).
Er well yes I did steal the baby but it's all a right wing media plot. You only released the photo of me stealing the baby because Boris did something today. Yes I did lie, no wait, I miss remembered. Follow me, I'm the new messiah. My party is 100% behind me.
It is titled "How the Tories need to change". And yet here are a number of people going on and on about an event that has no impact whatsoever on their or anyone else's life. Your old nan isn't going to die on a trolley in a hospital corridor because Jeremy Corbyn laid a wreath. A bloke with no power to change anything did something ill advised. In the background the Tories are quietly ripping the country apart, with the help of their billionaire benefactors, none of whom will be affected by the fallout, their wealth will prevent that. But lets not talk about that, lets talk about the leader of the opposition instead, or Diane Abbott. This bunch of Tories make Thatcher look reasonable, and still some of you stick up for them - it can only be because you believe their propaganda, because common sense would have you questioning everything they do?
However maybe people are not keen on naked selfishness, greed, exploitation, corrupt use of power gained from nepotism, incompetence, equivocation, barely disguised racism, vindictiveness and the unfair distribution of scarce resources, austerity and no pretence at having any kind of recognizable or decent ideology.
So Labour remain close in the polls to the Tories, when Corbyn and his associates ought to be history for promoting fairer taxes, better public services, reclaiming stuff like water and trains from the profit makers, infrastructure development for the good of the most, and a defence policy aimed at making the world more peaceful.
It must be fake news out there, the Tories are polling at 90% but the left wing biased media won't tell us the truth.
A coalition of CL posters would have ousted the worst party for many many years. That is why analysis of the opposition is valid on this thread.
Nice one Boris, agenda manipulator supreme.
Think it’s also reasonable though to look at the bigger picture. It’s because of Corbyn and his divisive leadership and frankly ineffective opposition that we are suffering with this government’s lunatic policies and Brexit strategy.
Why I’m particularly “down” on JC is because with him as leader of The Labour Party I see the very real possibility of yet another Tory term in office. Given the complete mess of everything they touch it’s astonishing that Labour are not already the government in waiting. Clearly they are not. That’s what I find unforgivable about Corbyn. His leadership is the Tories best chance of clinging on to power.
It's not affecting anyone - but them talking about that instead of the real problems, and people falling for it is the real controversy...