In my view a (retired) senior fire officer should conduct it with access to legal advice if and when needed.
Really not sure about this one, particularly if they were operational.
The ideal candidate would be someone with vast experience not only in Fire Safety and construction, but also someone capable of dealing with the nuances of Contract Law and materials science. They should also have extensive experience in Social Housing.
In my view a (retired) senior fire officer should conduct it with access to legal advice if and when needed.
Really not sure about this one, particularly if they were operational.
The ideal candidate would be someone with vast experience not only in Fire Safety and construction, but also someone capable of dealing with the nuances of Contract Law and materials science. They should also have extensive experience in Social Housing.
Maybe best to find somebody who best fits that than a judge!
According to David Lammy it should be either a female or someone who isn't white.
WTAF?
I saw this yesterday. I'm inclined to agree with him. My reasons are
Most of the victims are of ethnic origin and aren't likely represented by the likes of the double barrelled CEO who resigned as leader of the council. I think Lammy fears that if this just goes to another white, middle aged man who tend to get these enquiry gigs, is this just going to be someone who doesn't really get the feeling on the ground and the magnitude/severity of what's happened. I'm not for one second suggesting that is more likely and we get a more objective approach from a female or someone of ethnicity heading up the enquiry, but what I'm saying is Lammy is a seasoned politician. Perhaps he's seen or heard of numerous committees in his time that are pooled by the same old same old.
He fears that the government will pick a company man sort of thing
If this whole thing has shown us anything, is that we have a broken system that has shat on the poorest of our society, hard. What faith would he, would I, if I had lost someone, that that very same system has the right approach to get answers
The distrust is understandable imo
Also, and you could make an argument that this shouldn't come into it, but am I correct in thinking he lost a friend. I would imagine, as hard as it is to remain objective, there's a bit of personal grief at play here
There's many ways you can look at it, but for me we're 3 weeks since the event and knowing what I know about Hillsborough and how long it took the victims of that to get justice, people, companies and institutions are going to be scrambling to cover their arses anyway they can. It's this systematic failure that has led him to call for this imo and I think he has a valid point
Everyone is of ethnic origin. Do you mean they aren't white british?
Yes - just don't think there's much faith in the system (and quite rightly so). Can see why some people may see the potential for an appointment to be maintaining the status quo if it's a middle aged white male, regardless of qualifications or suitability
Just my opinion, don't have any facts to back it up, so open to be challenged
Everyone is of ethnic origin. Do you mean they aren't white british?
Yes - just don't think there's much faith in the system (and quite rightly so). Can see why some people may see the potential for an appointment to be maintaining the status quo if it's a middle aged white male, regardless of qualifications or suitability
Just my opinion, don't have any facts to back it up, so open to be challenged
I take your points but would it be okay if a judge from a minority background was appointed to a case involving all white people, for those white people to want him removed for not understanding them and their grief?
If the answer is no then there's no issue with the appointment of the judge for this enquiry and it shows David Lammy, yet again, as being the male Diane Abbott.
I think your point is Cabbies is that justice doesn't just have to be done in this case, but it needs to have been seen to have bene done. We have victims who have lost faith in the establishment and we need to help them find closure alongside everything else.
Everyone is of ethnic origin. Do you mean they aren't white british?
Yes - just don't think there's much faith in the system (and quite rightly so). Can see why some people may see the potential for an appointment to be maintaining the status quo if it's a middle aged white male, regardless of qualifications or suitability
Just my opinion, don't have any facts to back it up, so open to be challenged
I assume all the different nationalities/ethnicities are in this country of their own free will because THEY want to be? If this is the case the legal system is for ALL of us. Imagine the chaos if any dispute, legal or otherwise could only be resolved by someone of the same colour/sex/ethnicity.
@Addickted you mentioned that your headquarters has been clad in inflammable insulation.
Have you looked into why this happened yet? It would be interesting to get an insight into the background and to how you are dealing with it.
Carried out years ago. It was used as overcladding rather than anything else and not really an issue as there is no sleeping accommodation within the building. The building has a total evacuation strategy.
However, I am arranging to have additional smoke detection installed in the cavity behind the cladding, linked to our fire alarm system, so at least if there is a fire there is early warning and everybody can evacuate.
Everyone is of ethnic origin. Do you mean they aren't white british?
Yes - just don't think there's much faith in the system (and quite rightly so). Can see why some people may see the potential for an appointment to be maintaining the status quo if it's a middle aged white male, regardless of qualifications or suitability
Just my opinion, don't have any facts to back it up, so open to be challenged
I take your points but would it be okay if a judge from a minority background was appointed to a case involving all white people, for those white people to want him removed for not understanding them and their grief?
If the answer is no then there's no issue with the appointment of the judge for this enquiry and it shows David Lammy, yet again, as being the male Diane Abbott.
Yeah I can't really say I'm 100% in agreement with what he said, more I understand why he said it and would it be such a bad thing given 'the system'??
Already you have residents and community leaders raising doubts about the suitability of the judge last night
Everyone is of ethnic origin. Do you mean they aren't white british?
Yes - just don't think there's much faith in the system (and quite rightly so). Can see why some people may see the potential for an appointment to be maintaining the status quo if it's a middle aged white male, regardless of qualifications or suitability
Just my opinion, don't have any facts to back it up, so open to be challenged
I assume all the different nationalities/ethnicities are in this country of their own free will because THEY want to be? If this is the case the legal system is for ALL of us. Imagine the chaos if any dispute, legal or otherwise could only be resolved by someone of the same colour/sex/ethnicity.
Yes I agree with you. It would be a mess. I was just trying to rationalise what he said and why I guess
gmb has a kensington and chelsea councillor on there asking him why he personally didn't visit grenfell tower before the tragedy, there was a lot of things that could be done to prevent it, but that is ridiculous the council has thousands of properties 1 councillor cannot visit all of them and wasn't even in his ward.
Local lad (to me) who tragically died yet his parents were denied legal help despite all others involved in the inquest, including the coroner due to the legal complexities, all had barristers at public expense. Similar thing at Hillsborough and other corporate negligence tragedies. Doubt Latimer Rd will be different.
A very sad case. Was the coroner's verdict wrong though, I wonder?
The parents at the Zane Gbangbola inquest were there as witnesses. (My emphasis) There were 70-odd witnesses giving evidence at the inquest.
It would, surely, take a complete re-think of law in this country (and just about everywhere else in the world) if witnesses in court had there own legal representation. Where would it end? How much would it cost the public purse? What benefits would it bring? What would be the downsides?
Take Zane's dreadful death. Would Zane's parents testimony have been any different if they'd had legal representation? If it would have been, why was that so? Was their testimony in some way incorrect in the first place? Legal complexities are not a matter for them are they? It's just the facts of the matter that should concern them and then the courts consider those facts and hand down a ruling.
In Zane's tragic case, the coroner found that he died of carbon monoxide poisoning.
His parents denied that during the flood they had used a hired petrol-driven water pump in an enclosed space in the house other than to briefly test it was working. This is not a matter of legal complexity. It is a matter of who is telling the truth. When your house is flooded, why hire a pump and set it up but not use it? Where did the full tank of petrol provided with it go if it was not used in the pump? Just for those who might not know, here's what the coroner thought.
In his Findings and Conclusions the Coroner determined that, on balance, Zane had died at approximately 10.30pm as a result of inhaling CO fumes emitted by the petrol driven pump downstairs at no.243. He did not accept the evidence of Zane’s parents as to their limited use of the pump, which he found “inherently improbable”. He found that the pump had been hired with a full tank of petrol. In his view the pump had been on for up to 6 hours on 7th February 2014, and had been located in an inadequately ventilated location within the property. He also said it only stopped when the petrol ran out. The parents' claim that Zane died and his father was badly affected by cyanide poisoning from a landfill site. The coroner concluded: "I find it very unlikely (my emphasis) for hydrogen cyanide to enter in a plume in the house. I find the single reading of hydrogen cyanide insufficient to conclude the cause of Zane’s death, with the reading taken at the open front door triggered by oxides of nitrogen probably caused by the fire engines outside.”
Neighbours have been recently circulated with leaflets advising them to upgrade the size of the airbricks in their properties!
So much has been done and so many advances have been made to address racism, sexism, homophobia (and the world has rebalanced hugely) that you'd think there would now be enough people in the system of whatever ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation that these things shouldn't come down to "we need a black man/woman chairing the enquiry" I think people saying that whilst maybe having best intentions are actually setting back equality each time they bang that drum.
Genuinely I'd feel (if I wasn't a white working class man) that maybe I should question how I got a job when positive discrimination is pushed so hard.
I'm not sure if this looks as good in words as it would sound coming out of my mouth however what I'm getting at it whatever the role is, in this case leading an inquest/enquiry the role should go to the best skilled person for the job. Not to someone viewed as different or to tick a demographic box. Isn't that a bit insulting to everyone?
So much has been done and so many advances have been made to address racism, sexism, homophobia (and the world has rebalanced hugely) that you'd think there would now be enough people in the system of whatever ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation that these things shouldn't come down to "we need a black man/woman chairing the enquiry" I think people saying that whilst maybe having best intentions are actually setting back equality each time they bang that drum.
Genuinely I'd feel (if I wasn't a white working class man) that maybe I should question how I got a job when positive discrimination is pushed so hard.
I'm not sure if this looks as good in words as it would sound coming out of my mouth however what I'm getting at it whatever the role is, in this case leading an inquest/enquiry the role should go to the best skilled person for the job. Not to someone viewed as different or to tick a demographic box. Isn't that a bit insulting to everyone?
Now the Grenfell Enquiry has started it's second part, let's hope that a definitive reason for the circumstances of the cladding being used can swiftly be explained and the Government acts decisively to ensure that the recommendations are enacted quickly.
As others have said, it seems illogical that this part of the enquiry didn't take place first.
I'm surprised there are no comments on this considering so many had a strong option immediately after the event about who was responsible.
Well, after the first 2 days, we now know that the firm that installed the cladding, knew that the system was a fire trap. We also know that the cladding manufacturer and indeed the insulation manufacturer both knew that the system was a disaster in waiting if a fire escaped through a window. We know all this because there is an email trail.
We also know that the residents group knew there were safety problems as they said that there had to be a fire with major loss of life before the management company would pay attention to their concerns.
There must surely be jail time for someone at the end of this process?
Just seen that the firms involved in the refurbishment of Grenfell Tower have requested immunity from prosecution before they appear at the next phase of the inquiry.
This simply cannot be approved. Nobody should be immune from prosecution in this country especially people who have something to hide.
Utterly ludicrous request. Some of the emails that have come out are shocking and surely somebody has to be held responsible otherwise it's just an insult to those who died.
Comments
The ideal candidate would be someone with vast experience not only in Fire Safety and construction, but also someone capable of dealing with the nuances of Contract Law and materials science. They should also have extensive experience in Social Housing.
WTAF?
Most of the victims are of ethnic origin and aren't likely represented by the likes of the double barrelled CEO who resigned as leader of the council. I think Lammy fears that if this just goes to another white, middle aged man who tend to get these enquiry gigs, is this just going to be someone who doesn't really get the feeling on the ground and the magnitude/severity of what's happened. I'm not for one second suggesting that is more likely and we get a more objective approach from a female or someone of ethnicity heading up the enquiry, but what I'm saying is Lammy is a seasoned politician. Perhaps he's seen or heard of numerous committees in his time that are pooled by the same old same old.
He fears that the government will pick a company man sort of thing
If this whole thing has shown us anything, is that we have a broken system that has shat on the poorest of our society, hard. What faith would he, would I, if I had lost someone, that that very same system has the right approach to get answers
The distrust is understandable imo
Also, and you could make an argument that this shouldn't come into it, but am I correct in thinking he lost a friend. I would imagine, as hard as it is to remain objective, there's a bit of personal grief at play here
There's many ways you can look at it, but for me we're 3 weeks since the event and knowing what I know about Hillsborough and how long it took the victims of that to get justice, people, companies and institutions are going to be scrambling to cover their arses anyway they can. It's this systematic failure that has led him to call for this imo and I think he has a valid point
Just my opinion, don't have any facts to back it up, so open to be challenged
If the answer is no then there's no issue with the appointment of the judge for this enquiry and it shows David Lammy, yet again, as being the male Diane Abbott.
Have you looked into why this happened yet? It would be interesting to get an insight into the background and to how you are dealing with it.
Imagine the chaos if any dispute, legal or otherwise could only be resolved by someone of the same colour/sex/ethnicity.
However, I am arranging to have additional smoke detection installed in the cavity behind the cladding, linked to our fire alarm system, so at least if there is a fire there is early warning and everybody can evacuate.
What a ridiculous thing to say.
Already you have residents and community leaders raising doubts about the suitability of the judge last night Yes I agree with you. It would be a mess. I was just trying to rationalise what he said and why I guess
So much has been done and so many advances have been made to address racism, sexism, homophobia (and the world has rebalanced hugely) that you'd think there would now be enough people in the system of whatever ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation that these things shouldn't come down to "we need a black man/woman chairing the enquiry" I think people saying that whilst maybe having best intentions are actually setting back equality each time they bang that drum.
Genuinely I'd feel (if I wasn't a white working class man) that maybe I should question how I got a job when positive discrimination is pushed so hard.
I'm not sure if this looks as good in words as it would sound coming out of my mouth however what I'm getting at it whatever the role is, in this case leading an inquest/enquiry the role should go to the best skilled person for the job. Not to someone viewed as different or to tick a demographic box. Isn't that a bit insulting to everyone?
I almost think they should leave it standing, as a ghastly and stark reminder, to all those who play with human life!
As others have said, it seems illogical that this part of the enquiry didn't take place first.
Well, after the first 2 days, we now know that the firm that installed the cladding, knew that the system was a fire trap. We also know that the cladding manufacturer and indeed the insulation manufacturer both knew that the system was a disaster in waiting if a fire escaped through a window. We know all this because there is an email trail.
We also know that the residents group knew there were safety problems as they said that there had to be a fire with major loss of life before the management company would pay attention to their concerns.
There must surely be jail time for someone at the end of this process?
Ultimately this should be about the victims.