How many of the 52% voted for a Hard or No Deal Brexit? Not enough for Boris to claim 'will of the people'.
I agree with you. It was always a ludicrous statement on 52/48 result. In hindsight the margin should have been greater for a leave vote to be carried.
I said way back in the discussion I was amazed at the result. I voted to leave the EU. I wasn't given further options.
Happy to have voted leave. Would have preferred a much higher quality of political debate but that seems typical of each major political event.
Can't stand Farage and Bojo.
But equally I am glad I didnt vote the same as Thatcher Major Blair Brown and Cameron would have done.
This is a spurious argument.
We could all list unpleasant or controversial public figures that supported the opposite views to ourselves, or indeed the same way as ourselves, to strengthen or justify our position or denigrate the opposite. FFS I voted the same way as Piers Morgan apparently!
I could point out you probably voted the same way as Neil Hamilton, Godfrey Bloom, Tommy Robinson, Nick Griffin, pretty much most of the racists in the UK and the awful, dreadful man that killed Jo Cox.
But it's utterly irrelevent to the discussion and not reflective of you in the wider sense I'm sure.
How many of the 52% voted for a Hard or No Deal Brexit? Not enough for Boris to claim 'will of the people'.
Somewhere around one half to two thirds of Brexiteers believe in a hard / no deal brexit. The rest of the country is for a soft Brexit or no Brexit at all. That is why there is a campaign building towards a second referendum based upon either the agreed deal, no deal or no Brexit. And that is rapidly gaining majority support across the electorate.
But it does not yet have support in Labour and is unlikely to ever secure support in the Tories for they are now a hard Brexit party at their grass roots.
Happy to have voted leave. Would have preferred a much higher quality of political debate but that seems typical of each major political event.
Can't stand Farage and Bojo.
But equally I am glad I didnt vote the same as Thatcher Major Blair Brown and Cameron would have done.
This is a spurious argument.
We could all list unpleasant or controversial public figures that supported the opposite views to ourselves, or indeed the same way as ourselves, to strengthen or justify our position or denigrate the opposite. FFS I voted the same way as Piers Morgan apparently!
I could point out you probably voted the same way as Neil Hamilton, Godfrey Bloom, Tommy Robinson, Nick Griffin, pretty much most of the racists in the UK and the awful, dreadful man that killed Jo Cox.
But it's utterly irrelevent to the discussion and not reflective of you in the wider sense I'm sure.
Having previously been grouped and described as a fuckwit rascist xenophobic moron, more recently unable to understand data, who only reads the daily mail, and as Seth has pointed one of only two voter types, I felt the need to make a point that I don't agree that you can pigeon hole brexiteers and indeed remainers in this way. It's more complex based on individual experiences and views of the wider world.
I stated very early on in this thread that I didn't like being in the same camp as Farage and Johnson and cronies. But equally I was happy to align myself with the views of Frank Field for whom I have some respect for his role in my previous industry namely pensions.
Happy to have voted leave. Would have preferred a much higher quality of political debate but that seems typical of each major political event.
Can't stand Farage and Bojo.
But equally I am glad I didnt vote the same as Thatcher Major Blair Brown and Cameron would have done.
This is a spurious argument.
We could all list unpleasant or controversial public figures that supported the opposite views to ourselves, or indeed the same way as ourselves, to strengthen or justify our position or denigrate the opposite. FFS I voted the same way as Piers Morgan apparently!
I could point out you probably voted the same way as Neil Hamilton, Godfrey Bloom, Tommy Robinson, Nick Griffin, pretty much most of the racists in the UK and the awful, dreadful man that killed Jo Cox.
But it's utterly irrelevent to the discussion and not reflective of you in the wider sense I'm sure.
Having previously been grouped and described as a fuckwit rascist xenophobic moron, more recently unable to understand data, who only reads the daily mail, and as Seth has pointed one of only two voter types, I felt the need to make a point that I don't agree that you can pigeon hole brexiteers and indeed remainers in this way. It's more complex based on individual experiences and views of the wider world.
I stated very early on in this thread that I didn't like being in the same camp as Farage and Johnson and cronies. But equally I was happy to align myself with the views of Frank Field for whom I have some respect for his role in my previous industry namely pensions.
But there are only two types........
There are only two types because all of us in our huge variations were obliged to be reduced to a leave or remain. When push came to shove people made a choice between only two options. There were no nuances available. There are other examples where people with all their differences can be categorised into two types, a virgin or not a virgin for example, a swimmer or non-swimmer, a parent or childless, bald or hairy possibly. The very phenomena of the referendum has polarised our society into two camps, whether people did or didn't really mean it or do or do not like it, it is there, laid bare, you were either a leaver or remainer if you voted. The fundamental is that brexit won the vote. Some brexiteers may now want to wash their hands of what has happened, some remainers may now want to get on the brexit bus seeing as how it won, but a moment in time was marked and the nation was divided into two, not millions.
Brexiteers like Boris, JRM and others arrogantly assume that 100% of the 51.9% voted for a hard or no Brexit, despite them and many of the leavers promising we could leave and stay in Customs Union. Hence leaving without a soft option or stay would be against the will of the people.
This is the obvious point purposely missed by politicians going on about the will of the people. It is pretty safe to say that all those who voted remain would prefer a soft Brexit to a hard one, but it is also clear that a percentage of leavers would have wanted a soft Brexit. Polls since the vote bear this out, and the figures are too large to dismiss that the soft option is the will of the people.
Of course our democratic system is all about ignoring the will of the people so it is the instinct of politicians to totally ignore the preference of those who voted remain as if they don't exist. I'm sure most brexiters, beyond any doubt, wanted a hard brexit but that is only relevant if you are intent on ignoring the will of the people and ignoring everybody else.
The fact is the preference is clearly for a Norway type arrangement, and if you allow for margin of errors in polls, it is pretty clear the difference is too high for this not to be the case. I think this is yet another deceipt from hard leave politicians and this country will be divided for many years to come if a hard Brexit is forced on us!
The ballot paper merely asked voters if they wanted to 'Leave the European Union' - there was no discussion of how this was to be done and I don't remember any debate re hard or soft Brexit. I'm assuming voters thought it was a simple process and that all the planning was in place.
No need to read anymore. This in a nutshell for me.
I've said many times on here there was just a simple Yes / No on the ballot paper with no hard, soft or crispy around the edge options. I assumed (along with quite a few others I would imagine) that the Governnent had looked into what "to leave the EU" meant & that it was, in fact, possible. I didn't expect the day after for the PM to open a drawer & take out a folder marked " instructions on how to leave the EU".....for it seems its what Cameron left TM to do.
It will take a heck of a long time before I vote Tory again. Certainly wont be voting Labour.....and as the Lib Dems want us to stay its either UKIP or an Independent / monster raving loony party.
Funny enough, I distinctly recall remainers everywhere - in the pub, on the tele, here on CL, telling people who intended to vote leave, over and over and over, of some of the potential pitfalls (we didn't know all of them at the time). As mentioned elsewhere, HM government told you their advice was to vote remain. You ignore it, and then blame them?
If you chose to ignore lots of people's advice, how can anyone be to blame but you?
what ??? are you telling me The Government initiated a referendum & then told the electorate to vote No ??
That is either a re-writing of history or a weird version of a backwards dictatorship.
Again, if you read what I posted, I said it seems to me that The Government on June 24th, open a drawer marked "leave" & read what it meant & how to go about it (triggering Article 50 etc).
David Cameron might have read said document before that date - but obviously never told TM as she plainly has no idea what she is doing.
I reckon the reason Theresa May plainly has no idea what she's doing was because she voted remain. The people who voted leave are plainly the ones who are supposed to know what to do, not Theresa May. Word has it that those who voted leave knew what they were voting for, that suggests they are not the kind of people to blame anybody else, but are prepared to own it.
oh for gods sake give it a rest. Every time.....all you spout is "you voted leave....you deal with it".
My post stated that (partly joking of course) it seems like The Government (you know, the ones in power & who should know what they are doing) opened a drawer on the 24th June that was marked "leave" and looked to see what needed to happen. It doesn't matter who the fuck open said drawer.....it appears that the incumbent PM hadn't a clue. If, as you summise, the Government were so clever in knowing that to leave would be such a shitfest, then why did TM, as a remainer and therefore such a sage in these matters, have no idea.
Why give it a rest? The UK is leaving at the end of next March. You make a massive assumption that the government in power should know what they're doing. Why? The people who should know what they're doing or what is supposed to happen post brexit are not the government, but brexit voters. We are told the referendum result was the 'will of the people', not the 'will of the government', indeed when MPs actually come up with an approach they can be accused of betraying the will of the people. May is staggering along with this not because she has, or is supposed to have an idea, but because of her simple lust for power. If you voted brexit you could help out by writing to her with your workable, practical and affordable solution to the Irish border problem.
posting this using my phone so cant highlight in bold.....BUT.....
for the last time (because frankly I've had enough)
You keep saying that it us Brexit voters who should know what they're doing or what is supposee to happen & not the Government....
how excatly ?? because believe me I would if I could.
Last time I looked we had a Parliament that sorted these things out. we elect a Government to do our "bidding" for us. I can't simply go to Brussels & tell Mr Barnier what I want or voted for. So it is the Government I blame for this. They asked me to vote & that is what I did. end of. they did not ask me how I wanted to leave or what sort of deal I wanted.they simply asked did I want to leave the EU & I said Yes.
Please just accept that we voted differently. you wanted to remain, I wanted to leave. Neither of us has to "own" the result & neither of us can directly affect the outcome from here. It is for the UK Government & the EU to sort out. You or I have no more influence from here on in unless the Government asks us to vote again.
1. There are too many Poles over here. End free movement. 2. You objected to the Brussels/Strasborg gravy train. 3. You thought our £8bn contribution could be better spent. 4. We could improve on trade deals with the 27 and 60 other nations 5. You wanted to make a statement about austerity. 6. If it's good enough for Nigel & Boris then it's good enough for me.
Did you vote for a soft or hard Brexit or no deal? Did you vote to leave the Customs Union or just the EU?
Brexiteers like Boris, JRM and others arrogantly assume that 100% of the 51.9% voted for a hard or no Brexit, despite them and many of the leavers promising we could leave and stay in Customs Union. Hence leaving without a soft option or stay would be against the will of the people.
This is the obvious point purposely missed by politicians going on about the will of the people. It is pretty safe to say that all those who voted remain would prefer a soft Brexit to a hard one, but it is also clear that a percentage of leavers would have wanted a soft Brexit. Polls since the vote bear this out, and the figures are too large to dismiss that the soft option is the will of the people.
Of course our democratic system is all about ignoring the will of the people so it is the instinct of politicians to totally ignore the preference of those who voted remain as if they don't exist. I'm sure most brexiters, beyond any doubt, wanted a hard brexit but that is only relevant if you are intent on ignoring the will of the people and ignoring everybody else.
The fact is the preference is clearly for a Norway type arrangement, and if you allow for margin of errors in polls, it is pretty clear the difference is too high for this not to be the case. I think this is yet another deceipt from hard leave politicians and this country will be divided for many years to come if a hard Brexit is forced on us!
The ballot paper merely asked voters if they wanted to 'Leave the European Union' - there was no discussion of how this was to be done and I don't remember any debate re hard or soft Brexit. I'm assuming voters thought it was a simple process and that all the planning was in place.
No need to read anymore. This in a nutshell for me.
I've said many times on here there was just a simple Yes / No on the ballot paper with no hard, soft or crispy around the edge options. I assumed (along with quite a few others I would imagine) that the Governnent had looked into what "to leave the EU" meant & that it was, in fact, possible. I didn't expect the day after for the PM to open a drawer & take out a folder marked " instructions on how to leave the EU".....for it seems its what Cameron left TM to do.
It will take a heck of a long time before I vote Tory again. Certainly wont be voting Labour.....and as the Lib Dems want us to stay its either UKIP or an Independent / monster raving loony party.
Funny enough, I distinctly recall remainers everywhere - in the pub, on the tele, here on CL, telling people who intended to vote leave, over and over and over, of some of the potential pitfalls (we didn't know all of them at the time). As mentioned elsewhere, HM government told you their advice was to vote remain. You ignore it, and then blame them?
If you chose to ignore lots of people's advice, how can anyone be to blame but you?
what ??? are you telling me The Government initiated a referendum & then told the electorate to vote No ??
That is either a re-writing of history or a weird version of a backwards dictatorship.
Again, if you read what I posted, I said it seems to me that The Government on June 24th, open a drawer marked "leave" & read what it meant & how to go about it (triggering Article 50 etc).
David Cameron might have read said document before that date - but obviously never told TM as she plainly has no idea what she is doing.
I reckon the reason Theresa May plainly has no idea what she's doing was because she voted remain. The people who voted leave are plainly the ones who are supposed to know what to do, not Theresa May. Word has it that those who voted leave knew what they were voting for, that suggests they are not the kind of people to blame anybody else, but are prepared to own it.
oh for gods sake give it a rest. Every time.....all you spout is "you voted leave....you deal with it".
My post stated that (partly joking of course) it seems like The Government (you know, the ones in power & who should know what they are doing) opened a drawer on the 24th June that was marked "leave" and looked to see what needed to happen. It doesn't matter who the fuck open said drawer.....it appears that the incumbent PM hadn't a clue. If, as you summise, the Government were so clever in knowing that to leave would be such a shitfest, then why did TM, as a remainer and therefore such a sage in these matters, have no idea.
Why give it a rest? The UK is leaving at the end of next March. You make a massive assumption that the government in power should know what they're doing. Why? The people who should know what they're doing or what is supposed to happen post brexit are not the government, but brexit voters. We are told the referendum result was the 'will of the people', not the 'will of the government', indeed when MPs actually come up with an approach they can be accused of betraying the will of the people. May is staggering along with this not because she has, or is supposed to have an idea, but because of her simple lust for power. If you voted brexit you could help out by writing to her with your workable, practical and affordable solution to the Irish border problem.
posting this using my phone so cant highlight in bold.....BUT.....
for the last time (because frankly I've had enough)
You keep saying that it us Brexit voters who should know what they're doing or what is supposee to happen & not the Government....
how excatly ?? because believe me I would if I could.
Last time I looked we had a Parliament that sorted these things out. we elect a Government to do our "bidding" for us. I can't simply go to Brussels & tell Mr Barnier what I want or voted for. So it is the Government I blame for this. They asked me to vote & that is what I did. end of. they did not ask me how I wanted to leave or what sort of deal I wanted.they simply asked did I want to leave the EU & I said Yes.
Please just accept that we voted differently. you wanted to remain, I wanted to leave. Neither of us has to "own" the result & neither of us can directly affect the outcome from here. It is for the UK Government & the EU to sort out. You or I have no more influence from here on in unless the Government asks us to vote again.
And I, and others, have told you time and again, much of the information was available, you chose to ignore it (and conveniently my previous post explaining this to you).
I don't think anyone has said that the government should not know what they are supposed to do, have they? They have said that you Brexiters should have some idea of what you want to happen and how it should be achieved, as that is what you voted for.
You had the option not to vote if you didn't understand the possible outcome. From your recent statements that was probably what you should have done?
It's not up to the EU to sort out, they didn't make the decision. "You" did.
Brexiteers like Boris, JRM and others arrogantly assume that 100% of the 51.9% voted for a hard or no Brexit, despite them and many of the leavers promising we could leave and stay in Customs Union. Hence leaving without a soft option or stay would be against the will of the people.
This is the obvious point purposely missed by politicians going on about the will of the people. It is pretty safe to say that all those who voted remain would prefer a soft Brexit to a hard one, but it is also clear that a percentage of leavers would have wanted a soft Brexit. Polls since the vote bear this out, and the figures are too large to dismiss that the soft option is the will of the people.
Of course our democratic system is all about ignoring the will of the people so it is the instinct of politicians to totally ignore the preference of those who voted remain as if they don't exist. I'm sure most brexiters, beyond any doubt, wanted a hard brexit but that is only relevant if you are intent on ignoring the will of the people and ignoring everybody else.
The fact is the preference is clearly for a Norway type arrangement, and if you allow for margin of errors in polls, it is pretty clear the difference is too high for this not to be the case. I think this is yet another deceipt from hard leave politicians and this country will be divided for many years to come if a hard Brexit is forced on us!
The ballot paper merely asked voters if they wanted to 'Leave the European Union' - there was no discussion of how this was to be done and I don't remember any debate re hard or soft Brexit. I'm assuming voters thought it was a simple process and that all the planning was in place.
No need to read anymore. This in a nutshell for me.
I've said many times on here there was just a simple Yes / No on the ballot paper with no hard, soft or crispy around the edge options. I assumed (along with quite a few others I would imagine) that the Governnent had looked into what "to leave the EU" meant & that it was, in fact, possible. I didn't expect the day after for the PM to open a drawer & take out a folder marked " instructions on how to leave the EU".....for it seems its what Cameron left TM to do.
It will take a heck of a long time before I vote Tory again. Certainly wont be voting Labour.....and as the Lib Dems want us to stay its either UKIP or an Independent / monster raving loony party.
Funny enough, I distinctly recall remainers everywhere - in the pub, on the tele, here on CL, telling people who intended to vote leave, over and over and over, of some of the potential pitfalls (we didn't know all of them at the time). As mentioned elsewhere, HM government told you their advice was to vote remain. You ignore it, and then blame them?
If you chose to ignore lots of people's advice, how can anyone be to blame but you?
what ??? are you telling me The Government initiated a referendum & then told the electorate to vote No ??
That is either a re-writing of history or a weird version of a backwards dictatorship.
Again, if you read what I posted, I said it seems to me that The Government on June 24th, open a drawer marked "leave" & read what it meant & how to go about it (triggering Article 50 etc).
David Cameron might have read said document before that date - but obviously never told TM as she plainly has no idea what she is doing.
I reckon the reason Theresa May plainly has no idea what she's doing was because she voted remain. The people who voted leave are plainly the ones who are supposed to know what to do, not Theresa May. Word has it that those who voted leave knew what they were voting for, that suggests they are not the kind of people to blame anybody else, but are prepared to own it.
oh for gods sake give it a rest. Every time.....all you spout is "you voted leave....you deal with it".
My post stated that (partly joking of course) it seems like The Government (you know, the ones in power & who should know what they are doing) opened a drawer on the 24th June that was marked "leave" and looked to see what needed to happen. It doesn't matter who the fuck open said drawer.....it appears that the incumbent PM hadn't a clue. If, as you summise, the Government were so clever in knowing that to leave would be such a shitfest, then why did TM, as a remainer and therefore such a sage in these matters, have no idea.
Why give it a rest? The UK is leaving at the end of next March. You make a massive assumption that the government in power should know what they're doing. Why? The people who should know what they're doing or what is supposed to happen post brexit are not the government, but brexit voters. We are told the referendum result was the 'will of the people', not the 'will of the government', indeed when MPs actually come up with an approach they can be accused of betraying the will of the people. May is staggering along with this not because she has, or is supposed to have an idea, but because of her simple lust for power. If you voted brexit you could help out by writing to her with your workable, practical and affordable solution to the Irish border problem.
posting this using my phone so cant highlight in bold.....BUT.....
for the last time (because frankly I've had enough)
You keep saying that it us Brexit voters who should know what they're doing or what is supposee to happen & not the Government....
how excatly ?? because believe me I would if I could.
Last time I looked we had a Parliament that sorted these things out. we elect a Government to do our "bidding" for us. I can't simply go to Brussels & tell Mr Barnier what I want or voted for. So it is the Government I blame for this. They asked me to vote & that is what I did. end of. they did not ask me how I wanted to leave or what sort of deal I wanted.they simply asked did I want to leave the EU & I said Yes.
Please just accept that we voted differently. you wanted to remain, I wanted to leave. Neither of us has to "own" the result & neither of us can directly affect the outcome from here. It is for the UK Government & the EU to sort out. You or I have no more influence from here on in unless the Government asks us to vote again.
And I, and others, have told you time and again, much of the information was available, you chose to ignore it (and conveniently my previous post explaining this to you).
You had the option not to vote if you didn't understand the possible outcome. From your recent statements that was probably what you should have done?
It's not up to the EU to sort out, they didn't make the decision. "You" did.
He also says he voted tory...is it his job to sort out the NHS.
Presumably he wanted the NHS broken up and sold off so that a few could make money out of it while the rest of us suffer. He is consistent in his approach, voted Brexit so that a few could get richer and the rest to hell in a handcart.
Happy to have voted leave. Would have preferred a much higher quality of political debate but that seems typical of each major political event.
Can't stand Farage and Bojo.
But equally I am glad I didnt vote the same as Thatcher Major Blair Brown and Cameron would have done.
This is a spurious argument.
We could all list unpleasant or controversial public figures that supported the opposite views to ourselves, or indeed the same way as ourselves, to strengthen or justify our position or denigrate the opposite. FFS I voted the same way as Piers Morgan apparently!
I could point out you probably voted the same way as Neil Hamilton, Godfrey Bloom, Tommy Robinson, Nick Griffin, pretty much most of the racists in the UK and the awful, dreadful man that killed Jo Cox.
But it's utterly irrelevent to the discussion and not reflective of you in the wider sense I'm sure.
Having previously been grouped and described as a fuckwit rascist xenophobic moron, more recently unable to understand data, who only reads the daily mail, and as Seth has pointed one of only two voter types, I felt the need to make a point that I don't agree that you can pigeon hole brexiteers and indeed remainers in this way. It's more complex based on individual experiences and views of the wider world.
I stated very early on in this thread that I didn't like being in the same camp as Farage and Johnson and cronies. But equally I was happy to align myself with the views of Frank Field for whom I have some respect for his role in my previous industry namely pensions.
But there are only two types........
Fair enough and for the record I don't believe I've ever called you personally any of those things or lumped all Leavers together in that way either. The drivers for voting one way or the other were a whole range of issues and considerations across society.
Brexit has made strange bedfellows of us all. I found myself on the same side as a Prime Minister I consider to be one of the country's worst ever and more recently admiring the stance and stoicism of Anna Soubrey.
To me the fact that such divergent groups as the TUC and the CBI found themselves on the same side of the equation should have served as a great big red flag to those considering Leaving; to think about why that should be. But it seems it didn't and Leave gave voters legitimacy to dismiss the views of those with the detailed knowledge of the full implications of Brexit and ignore the government's own position that leaving was not in the best interests of the country.
Given the lifelong consequences of Brexit, for all of us, it's almost inevitable then that those of us who didn't vote for this drawn out, excruciating shitefest are tempted to "lash out" at and lump together those that did.
The problem is also that if you lie down with dogs, you get fleas as the saying goes...and whether you like it or not, there are a lot of "dogs" like Arron Banks on your side of the equation.
On the plus side if in a few years time we are rolling in dosh, our housing problem has been fixed, wages are up, food's cheaper, our NHS and social care system is fully functioning, benefit payments are down, our industries are booming, crime is down and the roads are faster...then YOU get to say "I told you so!".
1. There are too many Poles over here. End free movement. 2. You objected to the Brussels/Strasborg gravy train. 3. You thought our £8bn contribution could be better spent. 4. We could improve on trade deals with the 27 and 60 other nations 5. You wanted to make a statement about austerity. 6. If it's good enough for Nigel & Boris then it's good enough for me.
Did you vote for a soft or hard Brexit or no deal? Did you vote to leave the Customs Union or just the EU?
I voted Remain. There was only one variable.
So you know exactly how the EU will act in the future do you? No possible variations there? No changes have happened in the last 40 yrs have they? 7 countries to 28 etc. Fine I respect your position. Now please respect mine.
Brexiteers like Boris, JRM and others arrogantly assume that 100% of the 51.9% voted for a hard or no Brexit, despite them and many of the leavers promising we could leave and stay in Customs Union. Hence leaving without a soft option or stay would be against the will of the people.
This is the obvious point purposely missed by politicians going on about the will of the people. It is pretty safe to say that all those who voted remain would prefer a soft Brexit to a hard one, but it is also clear that a percentage of leavers would have wanted a soft Brexit. Polls since the vote bear this out, and the figures are too large to dismiss that the soft option is the will of the people.
Of course our democratic system is all about ignoring the will of the people so it is the instinct of politicians to totally ignore the preference of those who voted remain as if they don't exist. I'm sure most brexiters, beyond any doubt, wanted a hard brexit but that is only relevant if you are intent on ignoring the will of the people and ignoring everybody else.
The fact is the preference is clearly for a Norway type arrangement, and if you allow for margin of errors in polls, it is pretty clear the difference is too high for this not to be the case. I think this is yet another deceipt from hard leave politicians and this country will be divided for many years to come if a hard Brexit is forced on us!
The ballot paper merely asked voters if they wanted to 'Leave the European Union' - there was no discussion of how this was to be done and I don't remember any debate re hard or soft Brexit. I'm assuming voters thought it was a simple process and that all the planning was in place.
No need to read anymore. This in a nutshell for me.
I've said many times on here there was just a simple Yes / No on the ballot paper with no hard, soft or crispy around the edge options. I assumed (along with quite a few others I would imagine) that the Governnent had looked into what "to leave the EU" meant & that it was, in fact, possible. I didn't expect the day after for the PM to open a drawer & take out a folder marked " instructions on how to leave the EU".....for it seems its what Cameron left TM to do.
It will take a heck of a long time before I vote Tory again. Certainly wont be voting Labour.....and as the Lib Dems want us to stay its either UKIP or an Independent / monster raving loony party.
Funny enough, I distinctly recall remainers everywhere - in the pub, on the tele, here on CL, telling people who intended to vote leave, over and over and over, of some of the potential pitfalls (we didn't know all of them at the time). As mentioned elsewhere, HM government told you their advice was to vote remain. You ignore it, and then blame them?
If you chose to ignore lots of people's advice, how can anyone be to blame but you?
what ??? are you telling me The Government initiated a referendum & then told the electorate to vote No ??
That is either a re-writing of history or a weird version of a backwards dictatorship.
Again, if you read what I posted, I said it seems to me that The Government on June 24th, open a drawer marked "leave" & read what it meant & how to go about it (triggering Article 50 etc).
David Cameron might have read said document before that date - but obviously never told TM as she plainly has no idea what she is doing.
I reckon the reason Theresa May plainly has no idea what she's doing was because she voted remain. The people who voted leave are plainly the ones who are supposed to know what to do, not Theresa May. Word has it that those who voted leave knew what they were voting for, that suggests they are not the kind of people to blame anybody else, but are prepared to own it.
oh for gods sake give it a rest. Every time.....all you spout is "you voted leave....you deal with it".
My post stated that (partly joking of course) it seems like The Government (you know, the ones in power & who should know what they are doing) opened a drawer on the 24th June that was marked "leave" and looked to see what needed to happen. It doesn't matter who the fuck open said drawer.....it appears that the incumbent PM hadn't a clue. If, as you summise, the Government were so clever in knowing that to leave would be such a shitfest, then why did TM, as a remainer and therefore such a sage in these matters, have no idea.
Why give it a rest? The UK is leaving at the end of next March. You make a massive assumption that the government in power should know what they're doing. Why? The people who should know what they're doing or what is supposed to happen post brexit are not the government, but brexit voters. We are told the referendum result was the 'will of the people', not the 'will of the government', indeed when MPs actually come up with an approach they can be accused of betraying the will of the people. May is staggering along with this not because she has, or is supposed to have an idea, but because of her simple lust for power. If you voted brexit you could help out by writing to her with your workable, practical and affordable solution to the Irish border problem.
posting this using my phone so cant highlight in bold.....BUT.....
for the last time (because frankly I've had enough)
You keep saying that it us Brexit voters who should know what they're doing or what is supposee to happen & not the Government....
how excatly ?? because believe me I would if I could.
Last time I looked we had a Parliament that sorted these things out. we elect a Government to do our "bidding" for us. I can't simply go to Brussels & tell Mr Barnier what I want or voted for. So it is the Government I blame for this. They asked me to vote & that is what I did. end of. they did not ask me how I wanted to leave or what sort of deal I wanted.they simply asked did I want to leave the EU & I said Yes.
Please just accept that we voted differently. you wanted to remain, I wanted to leave. Neither of us has to "own" the result & neither of us can directly affect the outcome from here. It is for the UK Government & the EU to sort out. You or I have no more influence from here on in unless the Government asks us to vote again.
When you say we asked the government to do our 'bidding therein lies the rub. What have the brexit voters 'bid' for? If the detail is avoided then the Government can say no change except blue passports and there's your brexit. Fine. If not fine then what? Apply to brexit voters for the answer.
Why respect your position when it is costing my children a future?
It might well be the opposite.
Anyway I didn’t vote for Blair Brown and Cameron. Those of you that did can own the Iraq war, Austerity the boom and bust economy and the failings in the NHS and others. I have had to sit back and watch the shitfest and some of you are entirely responsible and should OWN the problem. Ludicrous position to adopt.
Why respect your position when it is costing my children a future?
It might well be the opposite.
Anyway I didn’t vote for Blair Brown and Cameron. Those of you that did can own the Iraq war, Austerity the boom and bust economy and the failings in the NHS and others. I have had to sit back and watch the shitfest and some of you are entirely responsible and should OWN the problem. Ludicrous position to adopt.
I disagree. A general election is for Christmas, brexit is for life.
Why respect your position when it is costing my children a future?
It might well be the opposite.
Anyway I didn’t vote for Blair Brown and Cameron. Those of you that did can own the Iraq war, Austerity the boom and bust economy and the failings in the NHS and others. I have had to sit back and watch the shitfest and some of you are entirely responsible and should OWN the problem. Ludicrous position to adopt.
Didn't vote for any of them, but you voted Brexit and as such voted for yourself not the nation or the future.
Happy to have voted leave. Would have preferred a much higher quality of political debate but that seems typical of each major political event.
Can't stand Farage and Bojo.
But equally I am glad I didnt vote the same as Thatcher Major Blair Brown and Cameron would have done.
This is a spurious argument.
We could all list unpleasant or controversial public figures that supported the opposite views to ourselves, or indeed the same way as ourselves, to strengthen or justify our position or denigrate the opposite. FFS I voted the same way as Piers Morgan apparently!
I could point out you probably voted the same way as Neil Hamilton, Godfrey Bloom, Tommy Robinson, Nick Griffin, pretty much most of the racists in the UK and the awful, dreadful man that killed Jo Cox.
But it's utterly irrelevent to the discussion and not reflective of you in the wider sense I'm sure.
Having previously been grouped and described as a fuckwit rascist xenophobic moron, more recently unable to understand data, who only reads the daily mail, and as Seth has pointed one of only two voter types, I felt the need to make a point that I don't agree that you can pigeon hole brexiteers and indeed remainers in this way. It's more complex based on individual experiences and views of the wider world.
I stated very early on in this thread that I didn't like being in the same camp as Farage and Johnson and cronies. But equally I was happy to align myself with the views of Frank Field for whom I have some respect for his role in my previous industry namely pensions.
But there are only two types........
I think you prove the point.
Yes there were lots of people with lots of opinions that covered the full spectrum of ideas and considerations but we were reduced to a yes or a no, with no nuances.
Instead of small steps to reach the best decision we jumped in two footed with no thought of the consequences. I voted remain but I wanted reform of the EU and I am damn sure that the reform I wanted wouldn't match the reforms of anybody else.
Why respect your position when it is costing my children a future?
It might well be the opposite.
Anyway I didn’t vote for Blair Brown and Cameron. Those of you that did can own the Iraq war, Austerity the boom and bust economy and the failings in the NHS and others. I have had to sit back and watch the shitfest and some of you are entirely responsible and should OWN the problem. Ludicrous position to adopt.
I disagree. A general election is for Christmas, brexit is for life.
Do you think this will all be over in 2021. No chance. It will run and run. With a country so divided on the issue I expect it to be a political issue for the rest of my life. If we leave I am sure there will another referendum within a few years.
Why respect your position when it is costing my children a future?
It might well be the opposite.
Anyway I didn’t vote for Blair Brown and Cameron. Those of you that did can own the Iraq war, Austerity the boom and bust economy and the failings in the NHS and others. I have had to sit back and watch the shitfest and some of you are entirely responsible and should OWN the problem. Ludicrous position to adopt.
Didn't vote for any of them, but you voted Brexit and as such voted for yourself not the nation or the future.
Another ignorant post showing no respect that people may have opinions different to your own. I voted what I thought was best for my nation and its future including my own children. Just because you voted remain doesn't mean you own all that is righteous. Likewise leave voters are not pure evil as some would make out.
Happy to have voted leave. Would have preferred a much higher quality of political debate but that seems typical of each major political event.
Can't stand Farage and Bojo.
But equally I am glad I didnt vote the same as Thatcher Major Blair Brown and Cameron would have done.
This is a spurious argument.
We could all list unpleasant or controversial public figures that supported the opposite views to ourselves, or indeed the same way as ourselves, to strengthen or justify our position or denigrate the opposite. FFS I voted the same way as Piers Morgan apparently!
I could point out you probably voted the same way as Neil Hamilton, Godfrey Bloom, Tommy Robinson, Nick Griffin, pretty much most of the racists in the UK and the awful, dreadful man that killed Jo Cox.
But it's utterly irrelevent to the discussion and not reflective of you in the wider sense I'm sure.
Having previously been grouped and described as a fuckwit rascist xenophobic moron, more recently unable to understand data, who only reads the daily mail, and as Seth has pointed one of only two voter types, I felt the need to make a point that I don't agree that you can pigeon hole brexiteers and indeed remainers in this way. It's more complex based on individual experiences and views of the wider world.
I stated very early on in this thread that I didn't like being in the same camp as Farage and Johnson and cronies. But equally I was happy to align myself with the views of Frank Field for whom I have some respect for his role in my previous industry namely pensions.
But there are only two types........
I think you prove the point.
Yes there were lots of people with lots of opinions that covered the full spectrum of ideas and considerations but we were reduced to a yes or a no, with no nuances.
Instead of small steps to reach the best decision we jumped in two footed with no thought of the consequences. I voted remain but I wanted reform of the EU and I am damn sure that the reform I wanted wouldn't match the reforms of anybody else.
So you are saying that although Cameron got absolutely zilch in reform prior to the referendum then if us leavers had voted to remain with say a 60/40 or 70/30 result that would have been enough for the EU to make some changes. Having seen what we have so far I don't think so.
Do you think this will all be over in 2021. No chance. It will run and run. With a country so divided on the issue I expect it to be a political issue for the rest of my life. If we leave I am sure there will another referendum within a few years. Where did you get this line? Mogg and his 50 years? So you voted to condemn the nation and all our children to decades of shite. You're right I have no respect for you.
Why respect your position when it is costing my children a future?
It might well be the opposite.
Anyway I didn’t vote for Blair Brown and Cameron. Those of you that did can own the Iraq war, Austerity the boom and bust economy and the failings in the NHS and others. I have had to sit back and watch the shitfest and some of you are entirely responsible and should OWN the problem. Ludicrous position to adopt.
I disagree. A general election is for Christmas, brexit is for life.
Do you think this will all be over in 2021. No chance. It will run and run. With a country so divided on the issue I expect it to be a political issue for the rest of my life. If we leave I am sure there will another referendum within a few years.
Isn't this sending a very mixed message?
You were confident a couple of years ago to ignore all the expert advice from employers, industry leaders, trade unions, the health sector, environmentalists, academics, law enforcement agencies, consumer protection groups, endless economists and the government itself. You, presumably, considered what they had to say and dismissed it as secondary to your concerns about the effects of immigration and that leaving the EU would alleviate these (IIRC?).
But now, although you claim to still be happy you voted Leave yourself, you're not confident in a positive enough result to see off any movement to rejoin the EU? If you're right surely there shouldn't be any need for another referendum, because the benefits will be obvious for us all to see...and if they're not then I'm sure the Brexit press will do their best to promote them.
FWIW I can't see there's any way we will be rejoining in my lifetime, the media in this country simply would not allow any sensible discussion about it and it would also require us to adopt the Euro (I think?).
Happy to have voted leave. Would have preferred a much higher quality of political debate but that seems typical of each major political event.
Can't stand Farage and Bojo.
But equally I am glad I didnt vote the same as Thatcher Major Blair Brown and Cameron would have done.
This is a spurious argument.
We could all list unpleasant or controversial public figures that supported the opposite views to ourselves, or indeed the same way as ourselves, to strengthen or justify our position or denigrate the opposite. FFS I voted the same way as Piers Morgan apparently!
I could point out you probably voted the same way as Neil Hamilton, Godfrey Bloom, Tommy Robinson, Nick Griffin, pretty much most of the racists in the UK and the awful, dreadful man that killed Jo Cox.
But it's utterly irrelevent to the discussion and not reflective of you in the wider sense I'm sure.
Having previously been grouped and described as a fuckwit rascist xenophobic moron, more recently unable to understand data, who only reads the daily mail, and as Seth has pointed one of only two voter types, I felt the need to make a point that I don't agree that you can pigeon hole brexiteers and indeed remainers in this way. It's more complex based on individual experiences and views of the wider world.
I stated very early on in this thread that I didn't like being in the same camp as Farage and Johnson and cronies. But equally I was happy to align myself with the views of Frank Field for whom I have some respect for his role in my previous industry namely pensions.
But there are only two types........
I think you prove the point.
Yes there were lots of people with lots of opinions that covered the full spectrum of ideas and considerations but we were reduced to a yes or a no, with no nuances.
Instead of small steps to reach the best decision we jumped in two footed with no thought of the consequences. I voted remain but I wanted reform of the EU and I am damn sure that the reform I wanted wouldn't match the reforms of anybody else.
So you are saying that although Cameron got absolutely zilch in reform prior to the referendum then if us leavers had voted to remain with say a 60/40 or 70/30 result that would have been enough for the EU to make some changes. Having seen what we have so far I don't think so.
No that is not what I am saying.
Cameroon going to the EU (who negotiate as a block) for changes that suited the UK was doomed to failure, he did it to appease his party, he called the referendum to appease his party, he promised no 'blue on blue' attacks during the referendum campaign to appease his party and he said he would be staying on whatever the result to appease his party.
What I am suggesting is that we could have found allies who supported our views (I am sure there were plenty) and worked with them to bring about change. Like in any negotiation you must win people over and get people to agree with your position. Instead we are leaving and still not winning people over or getting people to agree with our position.
Why respect your position when it is costing my children a future?
It might well be the opposite.
Anyway I didn’t vote for Blair Brown and Cameron. Those of you that did can own the Iraq war, Austerity the boom and bust economy and the failings in the NHS and others. I have had to sit back and watch the shitfest and some of you are entirely responsible and should OWN the problem. Ludicrous position to adopt.
I disagree. A general election is for Christmas, brexit is for life.
Do you think this will all be over in 2021. No chance. It will run and run. With a country so divided on the issue I expect it to be a political issue for the rest of my life. If we leave I am sure there will another referendum within a few years.
Isn't this sending a very mixed message?
You were confident a couple of years ago to ignore all the expert advice from employers, industry leaders, trade unions, the health sector, environmentalists, academics, law enforcement agencies, consumer protection groups, endless economists and the government itself. You, presumably, considered what they had to say and dismissed it as secondary to your concerns about the effects of immigration and that leaving the EU would alleviate these (IIRC?).
But now, although you claim to still be happy you voted Leave yourself, you're not confident in a positive enough result to see off any movement to rejoin the EU? If you're right surely there shouldn't be any need for another referendum, because the benefits will be obvious for us all to see...and if they're not then I'm sure the Brexit press will do their best to promote them.
FWIW I can't see there's any way we will be rejoining in my lifetime, the media in this country simply would not allow any sensible discussion about it and it would also require us to adopt the Euro (I think?).
You did well to get to today's game..posting at the time that you did..please don't tell me you didn't go...
Comments
I said way back in the discussion I was amazed at the result. I voted to leave the EU. I wasn't given further options.
We could all list unpleasant or controversial public figures that supported the opposite views to ourselves, or indeed the same way as ourselves, to strengthen or justify our position or denigrate the opposite. FFS I voted the same way as Piers Morgan apparently!
I could point out you probably voted the same way as Neil Hamilton, Godfrey Bloom, Tommy Robinson, Nick Griffin, pretty much most of the racists in the UK and the awful, dreadful man that killed Jo Cox.
But it's utterly irrelevent to the discussion and not reflective of you in the wider sense I'm sure.
But it does not yet have support in Labour and is unlikely to ever secure support in the Tories for they are now a hard Brexit party at their grass roots.
I stated very early on in this thread that I didn't like being in the same camp as Farage and Johnson and cronies. But equally I was happy to align myself with the views of Frank Field for whom I have some respect for his role in my previous industry namely pensions.
But there are only two types........
There are other examples where people with all their differences can be categorised into two types, a virgin or not a virgin for example, a swimmer or non-swimmer, a parent or childless, bald or hairy possibly.
The very phenomena of the referendum has polarised our society into two camps, whether people did or didn't really mean it or do or do not like it, it is there, laid bare, you were either a leaver or remainer if you voted.
The fundamental is that brexit won the vote.
Some brexiteers may now want to wash their hands of what has happened, some remainers may now want to get on the brexit bus seeing as how it won, but a moment in time was marked and the nation was divided into two, not millions.
for the last time (because frankly I've had enough)
You keep saying that it us Brexit voters who should know what they're doing or what is supposee to happen & not the Government....
how excatly ?? because believe me I would if I could.
Last time I looked we had a Parliament that sorted these things out. we elect a Government to do our "bidding" for us. I can't simply go to Brussels & tell Mr Barnier what I want or voted for. So it is the Government I blame for this. They asked me to vote & that is what I did. end of. they did not ask me how I wanted to leave or what sort of deal I wanted.they simply asked did I want to leave the EU & I said Yes.
Please just accept that we voted differently. you wanted to remain, I wanted to leave. Neither of us has to "own" the result & neither of us can directly affect the outcome from here. It is for the UK Government & the EU to sort out. You or I have no more influence from here on in unless the Government asks us to vote again.
1. There are too many Poles over here. End free movement.
2. You objected to the Brussels/Strasborg gravy train.
3. You thought our £8bn contribution could be better spent.
4. We could improve on trade deals with the 27 and 60 other nations
5. You wanted to make a statement about austerity.
6. If it's good enough for Nigel & Boris then it's good enough for me.
Did you vote for a soft or hard Brexit or no deal? Did you vote to leave the Customs Union or just the EU?
I voted Remain. There was only one variable.
I don't think anyone has said that the government should not know what they are supposed to do, have they? They have said that you Brexiters should have some idea of what you want to happen and how it should be achieved, as that is what you voted for.
You had the option not to vote if you didn't understand the possible outcome. From your recent statements that was probably what you should have done?
It's not up to the EU to sort out, they didn't make the decision. "You" did.
Brexit has made strange bedfellows of us all. I found myself on the same side as a Prime Minister I consider to be one of the country's worst ever and more recently admiring the stance and stoicism of Anna Soubrey.
To me the fact that such divergent groups as the TUC and the CBI found themselves on the same side of the equation should have served as a great big red flag to those considering Leaving; to think about why that should be. But it seems it didn't and Leave gave voters legitimacy to dismiss the views of those with the detailed knowledge of the full implications of Brexit and ignore the government's own position that leaving was not in the best interests of the country.
Given the lifelong consequences of Brexit, for all of us, it's almost inevitable then that those of us who didn't vote for this drawn out, excruciating shitefest are tempted to "lash out" at and lump together those that did.
The problem is also that if you lie down with dogs, you get fleas as the saying goes...and whether you like it or not, there are a lot of "dogs" like Arron Banks on your side of the equation.
On the plus side if in a few years time we are rolling in dosh, our housing problem has been fixed, wages are up, food's cheaper, our NHS and social care system is fully functioning, benefit payments are down, our industries are booming, crime is down and the roads are faster...then YOU get to say "I told you so!".
What have the brexit voters 'bid' for?
If the detail is avoided then the Government can say no change except blue passports and there's your brexit.
Fine.
If not fine then what?
Apply to brexit voters for the answer.
Anyway I didn’t vote for Blair Brown and Cameron. Those of you that did can own the Iraq war, Austerity the boom and bust economy and the failings in the NHS and others. I have had to sit back and watch the shitfest and some of you are entirely responsible and should OWN the problem. Ludicrous position to adopt.
Yes there were lots of people with lots of opinions that covered the full spectrum of ideas and considerations but we were reduced to a yes or a no, with no nuances.
Instead of small steps to reach the best decision we jumped in two footed with no thought of the consequences. I voted remain but I wanted reform of the EU and I am damn sure that the reform I wanted wouldn't match the reforms of anybody else.
Where did you get this line? Mogg and his 50 years? So you voted to condemn the nation and all our children to decades of shite. You're right I have no respect for you.
You were confident a couple of years ago to ignore all the expert advice from employers, industry leaders, trade unions, the health sector, environmentalists, academics, law enforcement agencies, consumer protection groups, endless economists and the government itself. You, presumably, considered what they had to say and dismissed it as secondary to your concerns about the effects of immigration and that leaving the EU would alleviate these (IIRC?).
But now, although you claim to still be happy you voted Leave yourself, you're not confident in a positive enough result to see off any movement to rejoin the EU? If you're right surely there shouldn't be any need for another referendum, because the benefits will be obvious for us all to see...and if they're not then I'm sure the Brexit press will do their best to promote them.
FWIW I can't see there's any way we will be rejoining in my lifetime, the media in this country simply would not allow any sensible discussion about it and it would also require us to adopt the Euro (I think?).
Cameroon going to the EU (who negotiate as a block) for changes that suited the UK was doomed to failure, he did it to appease his party, he called the referendum to appease his party, he promised no 'blue on blue' attacks during the referendum campaign to appease his party and he said he would be staying on whatever the result to appease his party.
What I am suggesting is that we could have found allies who supported our views (I am sure there were plenty) and worked with them to bring about change. Like in any negotiation you must win people over and get people to agree with your position. Instead we are leaving and still not winning people over or getting people to agree with our position.