The first thing that needs to be put to bed here is the assertion that Veganism is inherently healthy. It’s not. Without seeking out vitamin B12 supplements a vegan diet will eventually kill you. Pure veganism is an unnatural state for humans. Before supplements if everyone was vegan the human race would no longer exist. That’s why humans are omnivores. It’s the only way to get everything the body needs to survive. It is the human natural state.
Now I accept that in modern terms the need to be an omnivore is no longer critical. I accept that we now can choose and that’s of course a good thing. Want to be a vegan. Fine. Get on with it. What irritates me beyond belief is the evangelical claptrap being spouted about it being more healthy than eating a balanced diet including meat. It’s not. That is a fact.
I mentioned above that it is possible to get vitamin B12 from soy beans. Which would be possible in a vegan diet. Is it more realistic to say that anybody's approach to their personal consumption is what makes it healthy or unhealthy? Unmitigated raw steak and beer might be unhealthy, and nothing but turnips and water might be unhealthy too. However my understanding is, technically if you like, that there is no source of nutrients from meat based stuff that can't be found in plant based stuff. This post is intended to be genuine and not claptrap.
Ask the Inuit or Sami etc etc. people’s what they think about Veganism because the option of getting a well balanced plant based diet are not actually possible.
Being vegan is not a natural human state. No nonsense you care to bring up can change that.
I'd agree with you, veganism is not a natural state for humans... But then again, neither is living in the Arctic circle. As a species we evolved to live in temperate climes. Not sub-arctic ones. Even Northern Europe is pretty far from our 'comfort zone' as humans
Amongst all the silliness, some of the many points in this thread have really interested me, to the point as I mentioned many pages back that I do eat less meat, in fact I eat less of everything, I think that is an age thing as well. I am genuinely interested in eating less meat I dont want to cut it completely, and certainly would never stop eating fish, but there are some very valid and informative points brought up by the tree huggers, the dairy one is interesting for me, I drink a lot of milk, and have tried loads of the substitutes, but they taste bloody awful, so thats a sticking point for me. So a genuine question to the Vegans, is there a milk substitute that somehow tastes like milk?
This is the best milk replacement imo. Looks like milk if that bothers you, pretty close taste and texture to milk just has a kick of vanilla obviously, goes well in cereal, yet to try porridge but I imagine it would.
A couple of weeks ago I went to a talk by the guy who thought up go vegan for a month Veganary. He had something rather controversial to say. Whilst vegans do not generally eat in fast food restaurants like McDonald's the fact that they are now offering vegan food meant that if vegans want to get the vegan cause over to carnivores then company's like McDonald's and the like should have our support.
Amongst all the silliness, some of the many points in this thread have really interested me, to the point as I mentioned many pages back that I do eat less meat, in fact I eat less of everything, I think that is an age thing as well. I am genuinely interested in eating less meat I dont want to cut it completely, and certainly would never stop eating fish, but there are some very valid and informative points brought up by the tree huggers, the dairy one is interesting for me, I drink a lot of milk, and have tried loads of the substitutes, but they taste bloody awful, so thats a sticking point for me. So a genuine question to the Vegans, is there a milk substitute that somehow tastes like milk?
This is the best milk replacement imo. Looks like milk if that bothers you, pretty close taste and texture to milk just has a kick of vanilla obviously, goes well in cereal, yet to try porridge but I imagine it would.
It isn't making the case against veganism but clearly makes a case that it is entirely natural for humans to eat meat.
This thread is proper weird....maybe even challenging the takeover thread in that regard?
Surely the simple fact that so many people eat meat is enough to prove that it’s a ‘natural’ thing to do?
I love eating meat. I would not class myself as an animal ‘lover’ I do not have any pets I would not enjoy killing an animal for food I do not have to kill an animal for food I will carry on eating meat
Vegans - Eat what you like and believe what you like....just don’t try and force your beliefs on others.
Meat eaters - Eat what you like and believe what you like....just don’t try and force your beliefs on others.
Although none of your points are wrong one that stands out as being wrong is you do actually kill animals by buying meat. You are funding the organisations.
Erm.....ok.
Sorry I was meant to say other than. Your points are more sensible than just replying with drivel but 'I'm not killing them' is a negative.
So how far removed do I need to be until I'm not killing them?
If I don't eat meat but buy almond milk in Tesco (where they also sell meat)......am I still part of the problem via indirect funding?
No that's crazy logic imo. Again it's supply and demand, if Tesco notice an increase in their vegan items and a decrease in their butchery section then they will make changes. My friend used the same argument against me when I had a veggie burger from mcdonalds. I simply told him maccies ain't going anywhere and neither is meat, but if you buy their items it will inspire them to add veggie options to their menu. Finland had a vegan burger, pizza hut now do vegan pizza cheese etc. If there is a market for it then they will supply.
So no it's not indirect funding cause people need to live so it's hard to avoid funding the organisations I may disagree with. If I had the money though of course I would only shop at strictly vegan shops. Ultimately it's about doing your best to do the least harm possible
Edit: also sorry, I'm trying not to sound 'militant' but the comment of 'I'm not doing the killing' doesn't sit well with me
The first thing that needs to be put to bed here is the assertion that Veganism is inherently healthy. It’s not. Without seeking out vitamin B12 supplements a vegan diet will eventually kill you. Pure veganism is an unnatural state for humans. Before supplements if everyone was vegan the human race would no longer exist. That’s why humans are omnivores. It’s the only way to get everything the body needs to survive. It is the human natural state.
Now I accept that in modern terms the need to be an omnivore is no longer critical. I accept that we now can choose and that’s of course a good thing. Want to be a vegan. Fine. Get on with it. What irritates me beyond belief is the evangelical claptrap being spouted about it being more healthy than eating a balanced diet including meat. It’s not. That is a fact.
I mentioned above that it is possible to get vitamin B12 from soy beans. Which would be possible in a vegan diet. Is it more realistic to say that anybody's approach to their personal consumption is what makes it healthy or unhealthy? Unmitigated raw steak and beer might be unhealthy, and nothing but turnips and water might be unhealthy too. However my understanding is, technically if you like, that there is no source of nutrients from meat based stuff that can't be found in plant based stuff. This post is intended to be genuine and not claptrap.
Ask the Inuit or Sami etc etc. people’s what they think about Veganism because the option of getting a well balanced plant based diet are not actually possible.
Being vegan is not a natural human state. No nonsense you care to bring up can change that.
I'd agree with you, veganism is not a natural state for humans... But then again, neither is living in the Arctic circle. As a species we evolved to live in temperate climes. Not sub-arctic ones. Even Northern Europe is pretty far from our 'comfort zone' as humans
I take your point but it is also human nature to migrate and inhabit wherever a “living” can be gleaned. It’s not like the Inuit or Sami pitched up in the arctic circle since Holland and Barrett opened.
The problem with a lot of vegan advocates is that I never really get the feeling that they enjoy food that much - it's just fuel. Ask anyone what their favourite few dishes are and most are going to feature animal products. I don't think this is universal - there are cultures with a developed vegetarian/vegan cuisine which can offer attractive food - Indian has already been mentioned, but there are also good cuisines tied to Chinese and Japanese buddhism that have developed over centuries and a lot of very good middle eastern food, particularly around Lenten cooking where Syrian and Coptic Christians didn't eat meat during Lent.
I love food, it's all about the texture. For instance the taste of meat I don't miss it is the simplicity of eating out at restaurants and the texture. It's hard to replace that. Even when I ate meat though it was never nice without flavouring or sauce. Since I choose not to have the simple meal anymore it has forced me to use ingredients I may not have used otherwise. One of my favourite lunches is sweet potatoes and a home made chilli with lentils instead of mince. Before I made this I would just go with tuna mayo and I can honestly say the vegan chilli is a lot more tasty. The same applies to simple home meals like a curry, the chicken has been replaced by potatoes or quinoa or chickpeas and it's genuinely lovely cause they have the right texture.
Then if I am in a junk food mood I have a lot of options, my favourites being Annie's burger shack a burger place in Nottingham that offers meat, veggie and vegan options on all burger recipes, a Chinese just with beancurd instead of meat and I am lucky enough that 3 pizza places locally all do vegan cheese if I'm craving pizza.
A couple of weeks ago I went to a talk by the guy who thought up go vegan for a month Veganary. He had something rather controversial to say. Whilst vegans do not generally eat in fast food restaurants like McDonald's the fact that they are now offering vegan food meant that if vegans want to get the vegan cause over to carnivores then company's like McDonald's and the like should have our support.
This subject comes up quite a bit and one that I’ve pondered. Personally, I haven’t set foot in a McDonalds for other twenty years and just because they may be introducing a vegan option that won’t ever get me through it’s doors. I couldn’t financially support a company that primarily makes its profits through the exploitation of animals (not to mention its contribution to environmental damage, it’s questionable treatment of its staff and its undoubted effect on obesity rates in the western world).
However I can see that having a vegan option may be a positive in that it may help someone who is thinking about moving to a more plant based diet eg you’re a sixteen year old who’s been watching videos on YouTube about animal welfare or you’ve just read an article about the health benefits and you want to try for yourself BUT you move in a social circle that enjoys nothing more than to go and spend an hour in MaccyDs. At least you’ll have an option.
An awful lot of smaller vegan businesses are now being bought out by large companies such as Nestle and the like as they see the profits to be made. I have been sworn to secrecy so I cant say who but one of the largest dairy company's in the world is going to make 2019 its year of the Vegan.
An awful lot of smaller vegan businesses are now being bought out by large companies such as Nestle and the like as they see the profits to be made. I have been sworn to secrecy so I cant say who but one of the largest dairy company's in the world is going to make 2019 its year of the Vegan.
Oh my god......not another thread that will descend into ITK chaos !?!
The first thing that needs to be put to bed here is the assertion that Veganism is inherently healthy. It’s not. Without seeking out vitamin B12 supplements a vegan diet will eventually kill you. Pure veganism is an unnatural state for humans. Before supplements if everyone was vegan the human race would no longer exist. That’s why humans are omnivores. It’s the only way to get everything the body needs to survive. It is the human natural state.
Now I accept that in modern terms the need to be an omnivore is no longer critical. I accept that we now can choose and that’s of course a good thing. Want to be a vegan. Fine. Get on with it. What irritates me beyond belief is the evangelical claptrap being spouted about it being more healthy than eating a balanced diet including meat. It’s not. That is a fact.
I mentioned above that it is possible to get vitamin B12 from soy beans. Which would be possible in a vegan diet. Is it more realistic to say that anybody's approach to their personal consumption is what makes it healthy or unhealthy? Unmitigated raw steak and beer might be unhealthy, and nothing but turnips and water might be unhealthy too. However my understanding is, technically if you like, that there is no source of nutrients from meat based stuff that can't be found in plant based stuff. This post is intended to be genuine and not claptrap.
Ask the Inuit or Sami etc etc. people’s what they think about Veganism because the option of getting a well balanced plant based diet are not actually possible.
Being vegan is not a natural human state. No nonsense you care to bring up can change that.
I'd agree with you, veganism is not a natural state for humans... But then again, neither is living in the Arctic circle. As a species we evolved to live in temperate climes. Not sub-arctic ones. Even Northern Europe is pretty far from our 'comfort zone' as humans
I take your point but it is also human nature to migrate and inhabit wherever a “living” can be gleaned. It’s not like the Inuit or Sami pitched up in the arctic circle since Holland and Barrett opened.
Ancient man walking around the forest of South East London would have struggled to find much in the way of vegetable based protein either...
It isn't making the case against veganism but clearly makes a case that it is entirely natural for humans to eat meat.
This thread is proper weird....maybe even challenging the takeover thread in that regard?
Surely the simple fact that so many people eat meat is enough to prove that it’s a ‘natural’ thing to do?
I love eating meat. I would not class myself as an animal ‘lover’ I do not have any pets I would not enjoy killing an animal for food I do not have to kill an animal for food I will carry on eating meat
Vegans - Eat what you like and believe what you like....just don’t try and force your beliefs on others.
Meat eaters - Eat what you like and believe what you like....just don’t try and force your beliefs on others.
Although none of your points are wrong one that stands out as being wrong is you do actually kill animals by buying meat. You are funding the organisations.
Erm.....ok.
Sorry I was meant to say other than. Your points are more sensible than just replying with drivel but 'I'm not killing them' is a negative.
So how far removed do I need to be until I'm not killing them?
If I don't eat meat but buy almond milk in Tesco (where they also sell meat)......am I still part of the problem via indirect funding?
No that's crazy logic imo. Again it's supply and demand, if Tesco notice an increase in their vegan items and a decrease in their butchery section then they will make changes. My friend used the same argument against me when I had a veggie burger from mcdonalds. I simply told him maccies ain't going anywhere and neither is meat, but if you buy their items it will inspire them to add veggie options to their menu. Finland had a vegan burger, pizza hut now do vegan pizza cheese etc. If there is a market for it then they will supply.
So no it's not indirect funding cause people need to live so it's hard to avoid funding the organisations I may disagree with. If I had the money though of course I would only shop at strictly vegan shops. Ultimately it's about doing your best to do the least harm possible
Edit: also sorry, I'm trying not to sound 'militant' but the comment of 'I'm not doing the killing' doesn't sit well with me
It's fine mate.....I'll obviously agree that I'm contributing to the meat slaughter requirement as I'm part of the demand for it.....but cannot see how that equates to me actually killing the animal as you state.
It isn't making the case against veganism but clearly makes a case that it is entirely natural for humans to eat meat.
This thread is proper weird....maybe even challenging the takeover thread in that regard?
Surely the simple fact that so many people eat meat is enough to prove that it’s a ‘natural’ thing to do?
I love eating meat. I would not class myself as an animal ‘lover’ I do not have any pets I would not enjoy killing an animal for food I do not have to kill an animal for food I will carry on eating meat
Vegans - Eat what you like and believe what you like....just don’t try and force your beliefs on others.
Meat eaters - Eat what you like and believe what you like....just don’t try and force your beliefs on others.
Although none of your points are wrong one that stands out as being wrong is you do actually kill animals by buying meat. You are funding the organisations.
Erm.....ok.
Sorry I was meant to say other than. Your points are more sensible than just replying with drivel but 'I'm not killing them' is a negative.
So how far removed do I need to be until I'm not killing them?
If I don't eat meat but buy almond milk in Tesco (where they also sell meat)......am I still part of the problem via indirect funding?
No that's crazy logic imo. Again it's supply and demand, if Tesco notice an increase in their vegan items and a decrease in their butchery section then they will make changes. My friend used the same argument against me when I had a veggie burger from mcdonalds. I simply told him maccies ain't going anywhere and neither is meat, but if you buy their items it will inspire them to add veggie options to their menu. Finland had a vegan burger, pizza hut now do vegan pizza cheese etc. If there is a market for it then they will supply.
So no it's not indirect funding cause people need to live so it's hard to avoid funding the organisations I may disagree with. If I had the money though of course I would only shop at strictly vegan shops. Ultimately it's about doing your best to do the least harm possible
Edit: also sorry, I'm trying not to sound 'militant' but the comment of 'I'm not doing the killing' doesn't sit well with me
It's fine mate.....I'll obviously agree that I'm contributing to the meat slaughter requirement as I'm part of the demand for it.....but cannot see how that equates to me actually killing the animal as you state.
I know I'm skipping pages of posts here, but this has made me really angry.
Some fucking sicko had admitted to making his dog live a vegan lifestyle, I really hope someone has contacted the RSPCA about this scumbag.
Absolutely bizarre. So you're ok with millions and millions of animals dying for nothing more than taste yet because someone is feeding their dog vegan food he is a 'fucking sicko'.
Have a word
One is natural, The other is torture.
I have big problems with how the food industry works, it's why I avoid super markets as much as possible and try to buy all my food from local wet markets and friends/family that produce it themselves.
However I'd never let my dog suffer as a result of my life choices.
So if the dog is healthy and not suffering you'd change your opinion?
I like making some vegetarian/vegan stir frys and curries. Can anyone recommend any vegan recipe books if I want to be more adventurous?
Get yourself to YouTube and search for Bosh, Happy Pear and Avant Garde Vegan channels. You’ll find some easy to follow recipes that will hit the spot.
Thanks AUN. I've just subscribed to all 3 channels.
I know I'm skipping pages of posts here, but this has made me really angry.
Some fucking sicko had admitted to making his dog live a vegan lifestyle, I really hope someone has contacted the RSPCA about this scumbag.
Absolutely bizarre. So you're ok with millions and millions of animals dying for nothing more than taste yet because someone is feeding their dog vegan food he is a 'fucking sicko'.
Have a word
One is natural, The other is torture.
I have big problems with how the food industry works, it's why I avoid super markets as much as possible and try to buy all my food from local wet markets and friends/family that produce it themselves.
However I'd never let my dog suffer as a result of my life choices.
So if the dog is healthy and not suffering you'd change your opinion?
But it's not, it's completely unnatural for a dog to only eat vegetables.
The first thing that needs to be put to bed here is the assertion that Veganism is inherently healthy. It’s not. Without seeking out vitamin B12 supplements a vegan diet will eventually kill you. Pure veganism is an unnatural state for humans. Before supplements if everyone was vegan the human race would no longer exist. That’s why humans are omnivores. It’s the only way to get everything the body needs to survive. It is the human natural state.
Now I accept that in modern terms the need to be an omnivore is no longer critical. I accept that we now can choose and that’s of course a good thing. Want to be a vegan. Fine. Get on with it. What irritates me beyond belief is the evangelical claptrap being spouted about it being more healthy than eating a balanced diet including meat. It’s not. That is a fact.
I mentioned above that it is possible to get vitamin B12 from soy beans. Which would be possible in a vegan diet. Is it more realistic to say that anybody's approach to their personal consumption is what makes it healthy or unhealthy? Unmitigated raw steak and beer might be unhealthy, and nothing but turnips and water might be unhealthy too. However my understanding is, technically if you like, that there is no source of nutrients from meat based stuff that can't be found in plant based stuff. This post is intended to be genuine and not claptrap.
Ask the Inuit or Sami etc etc. people’s what they think about Veganism because the option of getting a well balanced plant based diet are not actually possible.
Being vegan is not a natural human state. No nonsense you care to bring up can change that.
This is a bit harsh. I fail to see that I am coming up with nonsense in my contributions on this thread. My theme is that in terms of nutrients that science has identified as being needed for human survival or growth, all of those nutrients can be found in plants. I am not even that interested in arguing about what is natural or unnatural (beyond saying that calling a vegetarian or vegan diet unnatural which seems to be rather a negative spin on things), I am arguing from a technical perspective that it is possible (although of course nearly impossible for certain groups like Inuit) for humans to survive and thrive without meat. If meat is a necessity in a general sense, leaving aside particular living and planetary conditions, then I have yet to identify what nutrients you can get from meat that absolutely can't be got anywhere else.
PS I have just read the very interesting stuff about soy above. And like a lot of foodstuffs it seems there is a downside if that article is to be believed. However I am also not aware that soy is one step away from being the devils foodstuff either. I am talking about B12, which indeed we humans have evolved enough to make it possible to add as a supplement if not got from soy, it is added to a lot of breakfast cereals and I would certainly be aware if a cereal supplement came from an animal source so I assume the supplement comes from some kind of plant origin. The point I have been trying to make (and I will shut up now) is that in theory even if not in practice, all necessary nutrients can be got from non animal sources.
I know I'm skipping pages of posts here, but this has made me really angry.
Some fucking sicko had admitted to making his dog live a vegan lifestyle, I really hope someone has contacted the RSPCA about this scumbag.
Absolutely bizarre. So you're ok with millions and millions of animals dying for nothing more than taste yet because someone is feeding their dog vegan food he is a 'fucking sicko'.
Have a word
One is natural, The other is torture.
I have big problems with how the food industry works, it's why I avoid super markets as much as possible and try to buy all my food from local wet markets and friends/family that produce it themselves.
However I'd never let my dog suffer as a result of my life choices.
So if the dog is healthy and not suffering you'd change your opinion?
But it's not, it's completely unnatural for a dog to only eat vegetables.
So even if it's fit and healthy you wouldn't reconsider? I know of several vegetarian dogs and they are all fit, healthy and vital. No different to any other dogs I know.
Their test kitchen was near my office in Old Street, the burger was excellent, i reckon in a blind test they'd have had me. Cheese and bacon we both convincing, thought the bacon not to look at.
The ribs were pretty vile, sadly seitan can't do it all
Temple of Seitan is amazing, my daughter is vegan we often go to Hackney for a 'chicken' burger. Now open in Camden as well although I haven't been there yet.
Those Japanese must be well vegan with their worlds highest life expectancy and everything.
Some of them will be, as Japanese vegetarian cuisine is largely vegan because there's traditionally not been dairy there. But the real point is that the natural Japanese diet is rich in vegetables, fruit, fish and seaweed, all of which are healthy and most of which will have featured in our diet before we started farming.
Treat soy information on this thread with caution, neither British medical association nor the world health organisation agree with what has been stated
Comments
He had something rather controversial to say. Whilst vegans do not generally eat in fast food restaurants like McDonald's the fact that they are now offering vegan food meant that if vegans want to get the vegan cause over to carnivores then company's like McDonald's and the like should have our support.
So no it's not indirect funding cause people need to live so it's hard to avoid funding the organisations I may disagree with. If I had the money though of course I would only shop at strictly vegan shops. Ultimately it's about doing your best to do the least harm possible
Edit: also sorry, I'm trying not to sound 'militant' but the comment of 'I'm not doing the killing' doesn't sit well with me
Then if I am in a junk food mood I have a lot of options, my favourites being Annie's burger shack a burger place in Nottingham that offers meat, veggie and vegan options on all burger recipes, a Chinese just with beancurd instead of meat and I am lucky enough that 3 pizza places locally all do vegan cheese if I'm craving pizza.
This subject comes up quite a bit and one that I’ve pondered. Personally, I haven’t set foot in a McDonalds for other twenty years and just because they may be introducing a vegan option that won’t ever get me through it’s doors. I couldn’t financially support a company that primarily makes its profits through the exploitation of animals (not to mention its contribution to environmental damage, it’s questionable treatment of its staff and its undoubted effect on obesity rates in the western world).
However I can see that having a vegan option may be a positive in that it may help someone who is thinking about moving to a more plant based diet eg you’re a sixteen year old who’s been watching videos on YouTube about animal welfare or you’ve just read an article about the health benefits and you want to try for yourself BUT you move in a social circle that enjoys nothing more than to go and spend an hour in MaccyDs. At least you’ll have an option.
It's all opinions though eh?
I fail to see that I am coming up with nonsense in my contributions on this thread.
My theme is that in terms of nutrients that science has identified as being needed for human survival or growth, all of those nutrients can be found in plants.
I am not even that interested in arguing about what is natural or unnatural (beyond saying that calling a vegetarian or vegan diet unnatural which seems to be rather a negative spin on things), I am arguing from a technical perspective that it is possible (although of course nearly impossible for certain groups like Inuit) for humans to survive and thrive without meat.
If meat is a necessity in a general sense, leaving aside particular living and planetary conditions, then I have yet to identify what nutrients you can get from meat that absolutely can't be got anywhere else.
I have just read the very interesting stuff about soy above. And like a lot of foodstuffs it seems there is a downside if that article is to be believed.
However I am also not aware that soy is one step away from being the devils foodstuff either.
I am talking about B12, which indeed we humans have evolved enough to make it possible to add as a supplement if not got from soy, it is added to a lot of breakfast cereals and I would certainly be aware if a cereal supplement came from an animal source so I assume the supplement comes from some kind of plant origin.
The point I have been trying to make (and I will shut up now) is that in theory even if not in practice, all necessary nutrients can be got from non animal sources.
I know of several vegetarian dogs and they are all fit, healthy and vital. No different to any other dogs I know.
Treat soy information on this thread with caution, neither British medical association nor the world health organisation agree with what has been stated