@Braziliance and others, I won’t patronise you in any way (I think it’s more a kick back for the re that steveLamb brings up this topic).
However, help me out here. I get the non meat fish approach based on the slaughtering of animal, raising of animals for slaughtering. Won’t I don’t get is the avoidance of dairy, eggs and honey, which animals naturally provide.
That to me is unnecessary and taking it to extreme. Grateful for your thoughts
@Braziliance and others, I won’t patronise you in any way (I think it’s more a kick back for the re that steveLamb brings up this topic).
However, help me out here. I get the non meat fish approach based on the slaughtering of animal, raising of animals for slaughtering. Won’t I don’t get is the avoidance of dairy, eggs and honey, which animals naturally provide.
That to me is unnecessary and taking it to extreme. Grateful for your thoughts
As an example, To produce milk the cows need to keep having calf’s so they are then breeding animals that are not needed and then slaughtered.
Personally, I think the only criminal part is that we don’t eat more rose veal in the uk
@Braziliance and others, I won’t patronise you in any way (I think it’s more a kick back for the re that steveLamb brings up this topic).
However, help me out here. I get the non meat fish approach based on the slaughtering of animal, raising of animals for slaughtering. Won’t I don’t get is the avoidance of dairy, eggs and honey, which animals naturally provide.
That to me is unnecessary and taking it to extreme. Grateful for your thoughts
As an example, To produce milk the cows need to keep having calf’s so they are then breeding animals that are not needed and then slaughtered.
Personally, I think the only criminal part is that we don’t eat more rose veal in the uk
Had one tonight in breadcrumbs. Lovely. Gotta look after the bull calves!
Just think it's worth saying as well that on a thread specifically aimed at Vegans that the attitude of 'I like meat why is that a crime' is just wasted. It isn't constructive and someone who has chosen a vegan lifestyle genuinely doesn't want to hear you try and justify why you eat meat as in our eyes there is no justification. To someone that doesn't understand it aka me over a year ago you don't know how ignorant you sound until you inform yourself. If you watch the videos about it and read the information on animal agriculture it will really test your morale compass. No one can believe I went vegan as I've always been a vegetable dodger.
I would highly recommend that if you have the mentality of 'Meat tastes nice I don't care' that you sit down and watch a documentary about animal agriculture and the harm it does to the planet. It's fascinating and at the very least will inform you on why people choose to go vegan even if you don't choose to yourself.
Are you really vegan ? You seem far too happy.
Not sure if you are being serious as I consider myself to be quite grumpy haha
But yes I am, I try and remain very neutral though as obviously the majority of people I know eat meat. Only me, my girlfriend and two of my close mates are vegan so I think trying to talk down to people for what I believe or cause arguments would not only leave me with no mates it would also be counter productive.
No I was serious. The people I know who are vegans on here and elsewhere "generally" seem to be very unhappy people, that moan about most things and have little sense of humour.
I don’t think I come across on here as being unhappy despite suffering bouts of depression. Genuinely perturbed that I may be seen as a grumpy fucker.
Just think it's worth saying as well that on a thread specifically aimed at Vegans that the attitude of 'I like meat why is that a crime' is just wasted. It isn't constructive and someone who has chosen a vegan lifestyle genuinely doesn't want to hear you try and justify why you eat meat as in our eyes there is no justification. To someone that doesn't understand it aka me over a year ago you don't know how ignorant you sound until you inform yourself. If you watch the videos about it and read the information on animal agriculture it will really test your morale compass. No one can believe I went vegan as I've always been a vegetable dodger.
I would highly recommend that if you have the mentality of 'Meat tastes nice I don't care' that you sit down and watch a documentary about animal agriculture and the harm it does to the planet. It's fascinating and at the very least will inform you on why people choose to go vegan even if you don't choose to yourself.
Are you really vegan ? You seem far too happy.
Not sure if you are being serious as I consider myself to be quite grumpy haha
But yes I am, I try and remain very neutral though as obviously the majority of people I know eat meat. Only me, my girlfriend and two of my close mates are vegan so I think trying to talk down to people for what I believe or cause arguments would not only leave me with no mates it would also be counter productive.
No I was serious. The people I know who are vegans on here and elsewhere "generally" seem to be very unhappy people, that moan about most things and have little sense of humour.
Couldn't agree more with this. It wouldn't be so bad if outside of lecturing you about your dietary habits they weren't so insufferable but the truth is they are all dull bastards outside of that too.
@AFKABartram - since you seem genuinely interested as to why some of us avoid dairy and eggs then may I give you my reasons.
Dairy - I don’t want to have anything to do with an industry that unnaturally keeps female cows locked into a cycle of artificial insemination, giving birth, having their babies stolen away from them, then being hooked up to milking machines where their sore and infected udders are used to extract their milk. This is then repeated until at around seven or eight years old they’re exhausted and beyond their ‘of use’ date. They’re then shipped off to slaughter. It is worth noting that a cow left to live a natural life can live to be as old as twenty years old. Going back to a dairy cows offspring, if it’s female then they go back into the dairy herd to endure what I detailed earlier, if they’re male then they are either immediately disposed of or sent off to endure a hellish existence in a veal crate, alone, devoid of stimulation or care. Don’t be fooled by the dairy industry image of happy cows gladly giving their milk so the rosy cheeked little human can get some wholesome calcium. The life of an average dairy cow is not worth living.
Eggs - again, don’t be fooled by the egg industries deviation from the truth. Your average hen used for her eggs isn’t skipping around a pleasant field, clucking away as they forage around for tasty tidbits or stretching their wings in the brilliant sun. The reality is they’re kept in huge barns devoid of natural sunlight with dank, dusty air, where if they have the space of an A4 piece of paper, then it’s deemed to have enough space for their needs. So depressing and stressful are these surroundings the hens have their beaks cut so they can’t injure each other if they fight due to the frustrating conditions they have to endure. Those above are the lucky ones as depressingly, some hens still, in this day and age, are kept in cages where they barely have room to move, wire floors of their cages cutting into their feet. So stressful is this life that it’s not uncommon for a hens feathers to fall out as they live in their own faeces under artificial light. As for the babies of the egg industry again it doesn’t offer any positives to be male. It is common practice that male chicks are routinely thrown into grinding machines where their bodies are obliterated or simply dumped on top of each other in plastic bags where they are then suffocated. If you’re lucky to be born female then you enter the cycle of being exploited for what is essentially a chickens period until your body is exhausted and you no longer have any financial worth. Then off to slaughter you go.
I appreciate that some people have no empathy or compassion towards what they see as essentially their food but for me, fuck that. There is no way I want to be a part of the hell that so many feeling, loving, thinking sentient beings have to go through just so I can eat a meal that I’ll have forgotten I’ve eaten half an hour later. My life isn’t that important so that they have to suffer.
Just think it's worth saying as well that on a thread specifically aimed at Vegans that the attitude of 'I like meat why is that a crime' is just wasted. It isn't constructive and someone who has chosen a vegan lifestyle genuinely doesn't want to hear you try and justify why you eat meat as in our eyes there is no justification. To someone that doesn't understand it aka me over a year ago you don't know how ignorant you sound until you inform yourself. If you watch the videos about it and read the information on animal agriculture it will really test your morale compass. No one can believe I went vegan as I've always been a vegetable dodger.
I would highly recommend that if you have the mentality of 'Meat tastes nice I don't care' that you sit down and watch a documentary about animal agriculture and the harm it does to the planet. It's fascinating and at the very least will inform you on why people choose to go vegan even if you don't choose to yourself.
Are you really vegan ? You seem far too happy.
Not sure if you are being serious as I consider myself to be quite grumpy haha
But yes I am, I try and remain very neutral though as obviously the majority of people I know eat meat. Only me, my girlfriend and two of my close mates are vegan so I think trying to talk down to people for what I believe or cause arguments would not only leave me with no mates it would also be counter productive.
No I was serious. The people I know who are vegans on here and elsewhere "generally" seem to be very unhappy people, that moan about most things and have little sense of humour.
Couldn't agree more with this. It wouldn't be so bad if outside of lecturing you about your dietary habits they weren't so insufferable but the truth is they are all dull bastards outside of that too.
@AFKABartram - since you seem genuinely interested as to why some of us avoid dairy and eggs then may I give you my reasons.
Dairy - I don’t want to have anything to do with an industry that unnaturally keeps female cows locked into a cycle of artificial insemination, giving birth, having their babies stolen away from them, then being hooked up to milking machines where their sore and infected udders are used to extract their milk. This is then repeated until at around seven or eight years old they’re exhausted and beyond their ‘of use’ date. They’re then shipped off to slaughter. It is worth noting that a cow left to live a natural life can live to be as old as twenty years old. Going back to a dairy cows offspring, if it’s female then they go back into the dairy herd to endure what I detailed earlier, if they’re male then they are either immediately disposed of or sent off to endure a hellish existence in a veal crate, alone, devoid of stimulation or care. Don’t be fooled by the dairy industry image of happy cows gladly giving their milk so the rosy cheeked little human can get some wholesome calcium. The life of an average dairy cow is not worth living.
Eggs - again, don’t be fooled by the egg industries deviation from the truth. Your average hen used for her eggs isn’t skipping around a pleasant field, clucking away as they forage around for tasty tidbits or stretching their wings in the brilliant sun. The reality is they’re kept in huge barns devoid of natural sunlight with dank, dusty air, where if they have the space of an A4 piece of paper, then it’s deemed to have enough space for their needs. So depressing and stressful are these surroundings the hens have their beaks cut so they can’t injure each other if they fight due to the frustrating conditions they have to endure. Those above are the lucky ones as depressingly, some hens still, in this day and age, are kept in cages where they barely have room to move, wire floors of their cages cutting into their feet. So stressful is this life that it’s not uncommon for a hens feathers to fall out as they live in their own faeces under artificial light. As for the babies of the egg industry again it doesn’t offer any positives to be male. It is common practice that male chicks are routinely thrown into grinding machines where their bodies are obliterated or simply dumped on top of each other in plastic bags where they are then suffocated. If you’re lucky to be born female then you enter the cycle of being exploited for what is essentially a chickens period until your body is exhausted and you no longer have any financial worth. Then off to slaughter you go.
I appreciate that some people have no empathy or compassion towards what they see as essentially their food but for me, fuck that. There is no way I want to be a part of the hell that so many feeling, loving, thinking sentient beings have to go through just so I can eat a meal that I’ll have forgotten I’ve eaten half an hour later. My life isn’t that important so that they have to suffer.
My Aunt keeps chickens and treats them very well. Get half a dozen eggs off her every once in a while and they are bloody lovely - so much nicer than the industrial style chicken eggs.
@Covered End there lies a question. If anyone wants to eat eggs then if you can find someone who has some hens that have a genuinely decent life then go for them. I know someone who rescues battery hens and they are treated like queens who’ve grown from disheveled and joyless into vibrant, inquisitive and genuinely happy birds. I certainly wouldn’t condemn anyone who bought the occasional dozen if the hens they come from live a similarly natural life.
Ignorance is bliss. I was fine just being a veggie until I found out more about the dairy industry.
My wife eats meat and dairy, purposely doesn't look into the industry because she's an animal lover and doesn't want to have to think about it and that's up to her. I'll buy her meat, I'll occasionally cook it for her.
I've not come across many other vegans so that doesn't add up with people's opinion that they go on about it all of the time. I'm usually outed by mates and colleagues who eat meat, wife and parents like to moan to anyone that'll listen how awkward I am.
If I'm offered meat I just say no thanks, if pushed then I'll say I'm a veggie because I find meat eaters get a bit funny around the word vegan.
It's probably the same with many ethical choices, no one can really argue that what's done to animals is OK, people know it's not nice so get a bit defensive.
I know that I could cycle to work and I'm causing harm by driving, my trainers are probably made by children and I'm not great at recycling. It's all down to what you need to do to satisfy your own conscience.
Veggie since 1989 when I was 24 - 52 now, so over half my life. My wife's been veggie since she was 17 - she's 52 as well. Aware of the issues with dairy but get organic stuff and free range eggs (and honey from a bloke at work).
I’ve been eating a fair bit of vegan food recently, had an amazing meal at a Japanese restaurant called Flat Three at Holland Park.definitely recommend that and am looking forward to going to Farmacy in a week or two.
Have no current plans to go the full vegan, vegetarian or ‘just fish’ bit I do feel a lot better for cutting down on meat, dairy and especially processed meat.
My mum has bantams and I have also had some of @Arsenetatters rescue hens eggs and there is no doubt that these eggs are almost unrecognisable even from super premium farmers eggs life Buford browns and Cotswold legbar. The requirements for free range eggs are not quite limited and in my opinion should be tougher, it ain’t hens foaming around the woods for sure.
What I find slightly interesting is the number of high profile sportspeople becoming vegan and swearing that it improves their longevity of high performance. Williams sisters, Hamilton, Haye all day it aids recovery times, focus etc.
Humans are the only animal that, once weaned, continue to consume the milk of another, lactating, animal. (An exception: A cat will accept cows' milk. When this occurs, the cat has been given the milk by a person. A cat would normally drink water). Our 'appetite' for another's breast milk is unnatural. The breast milk of the cow is for the calf. Humans take it (some would say steal it). The cow is separated from her calf and both are distressed. The cow is then inseminated again, forcibly and against her will, with the aim that another pregnancy will occur. The calf is separated from mother and her milk is taken. Repeat, until the poor cow is worn out.
Honey
Bees make this from collected pollen and it is produced and stored within the hive to feed the colony. Humans take (some would say steal) some of the honey. They do this by distracting the bees with smoke. Bees are frightened of fire and when they sense smoke, they prepare to flee the nest / hive. They put their heads into the honey stores and commence a feeding frenzy, swiftly taking on board energy in readiness for the impending flight away from the 'fire'. Thus distracted, the beekeeper takes (steals?) the bees' honey. In the belief that the honey is for the bees' young, and the colony, and given that the bees are distressed when they sense smoke (fearing that fire is near), vegans choose to leave the bees to their task of pollen collection, storage and production of honey. We consider it theirs, not ours.
Eggs
Factory farms might be a living hell for the poor chickens. Little light. A diet that makes you put on weight, unnaturally, and makes your legs hurt. You cannot, or have difficulty in, getting outside for air and light. All of these creatures are individuals, with their own personalities and idiosyncrasies. They are reduced to a money-making commodity.
I look after chickens. They are well-cared for and I know the provenance of their eggs. There is a persuasive argument in such circumstances for eating their eggs. I choose not to, and give the eggs away to non-vegans.
Animals are not just 'things'. Vegans oppose their commodification and choose alternatives. For example, there are many nutritious and wholesome nut, oat and rice milks available.
Make of this what you will. Animals and insects are distressed by our actions. We have the option and intelligence to avoid doing such things. And a growing number of us choose to do so, finding alternatives that cause no, or little, suffering.
@Anna_Kissed 1. Do bees not produce more honey than they need? 2. What milk would you recommend as tasty Like milk but not the process Dislike plain soya milk Don’t want sugared / sugar substitute in the milk
1. Perhaps they do. It depends, I think, on various factors, e.g. the weather, availability of flowers, etc. I choose to leave the bees alone. 2. Best, I reckon, to try some different ones and see what suits. (I purchase both unsweetened and sweetened (with apple juice) soya milk from Lidl. 59p per litre. Almond milk is nice on cereal, but I find it gives tea an overly-nutty taste.
Plenty of info in BBC Radio 4's 'Book of the Week'. Buzz, by Dr. Thor Hanson 'Bees are like oxygen - ubiquitous, essential and, for the most part, unseen. While we might overlook them, they lie at the heart of relationships that bind the human and natural worlds. Dr Hanson takes us on a journey that begins 125 million years ago, when a wasp first dared to feed pollen to its young'.
Comments
However, help me out here. I get the non meat fish approach based on the slaughtering of animal, raising of animals for slaughtering. Won’t I don’t get is the avoidance of dairy, eggs and honey, which animals naturally provide.
That to me is unnecessary and taking it to extreme. Grateful for your thoughts
Personally, I think the only criminal part is that we don’t eat more rose veal in the uk
Fairly sure they’re not getting up to animal business just for our benefit
I don’t think I come across on here as being unhappy despite suffering bouts of depression. Genuinely perturbed that I may be seen as a grumpy fucker.
"So to produce milk, cows and goats need to be producing young? "
Dairy - I don’t want to have anything to do with an industry that unnaturally keeps female cows locked into a cycle of artificial insemination, giving birth, having their babies stolen away from them, then being hooked up to milking machines where their sore and infected udders are used to extract their milk. This is then repeated until at around seven or eight years old they’re exhausted and beyond their ‘of use’ date. They’re then shipped off to slaughter. It is worth noting that a cow left to live a natural life can live to be as old as twenty years old.
Going back to a dairy cows offspring, if it’s female then they go back into the dairy herd to endure what I detailed earlier, if they’re male then they are either immediately disposed of or sent off to endure a hellish existence in a veal crate, alone, devoid of stimulation or care.
Don’t be fooled by the dairy industry image of happy cows gladly giving their milk so the rosy cheeked little human can get some wholesome calcium. The life of an average dairy cow is not worth living.
Eggs - again, don’t be fooled by the egg industries deviation from the truth. Your average hen used for her eggs isn’t skipping around a pleasant field, clucking away as they forage around for tasty tidbits or stretching their wings in the brilliant sun. The reality is they’re kept in huge barns devoid of natural sunlight with dank, dusty air, where if they have the space of an A4 piece of paper, then it’s deemed to have enough space for their needs. So depressing and stressful are these surroundings the hens have their beaks cut so they can’t injure each other if they fight due to the frustrating conditions they have to endure.
Those above are the lucky ones as depressingly, some hens still, in this day and age, are kept in cages where they barely have room to move, wire floors of their cages cutting into their feet. So stressful is this life that it’s not uncommon for a hens feathers to fall out as they live in their own faeces under artificial light.
As for the babies of the egg industry again it doesn’t offer any positives to be male. It is common practice that male chicks are routinely thrown into grinding machines where their bodies are obliterated or simply dumped on top of each other in plastic bags where they are then suffocated. If you’re lucky to be born female then you enter the cycle of being exploited for what is essentially a chickens period until your body is exhausted and you no longer have any financial worth. Then off to slaughter you go.
I appreciate that some people have no empathy or compassion towards what they see as essentially their food but for me, fuck that. There is no way I want to be a part of the hell that so many feeling, loving, thinking sentient beings have to go through just so I can eat a meal that I’ll have forgotten I’ve eaten half an hour later. My life isn’t that important so that they have to suffer.
Load of old bollocks.
My wife eats meat and dairy, purposely doesn't look into the industry because she's an animal lover and doesn't want to have to think about it and that's up to her. I'll buy her meat, I'll occasionally cook it for her.
I've not come across many other vegans so that doesn't add up with people's opinion that they go on about it all of the time. I'm usually outed by mates and colleagues who eat meat, wife and parents like to moan to anyone that'll listen how awkward I am.
If I'm offered meat I just say no thanks, if pushed then I'll say I'm a veggie because I find meat eaters get a bit funny around the word vegan.
It's probably the same with many ethical choices, no one can really argue that what's done to animals is OK, people know it's not nice so get a bit defensive.
I know that I could cycle to work and I'm causing harm by driving, my trainers are probably made by children and I'm not great at recycling. It's all down to what you need to do to satisfy your own conscience.
Have no current plans to go the full vegan, vegetarian or ‘just fish’ bit I do feel a lot better for cutting down on meat, dairy and especially processed meat.
My mum has bantams and I have also had some of @Arsenetatters rescue hens eggs and there is no doubt that these eggs are almost unrecognisable even from super premium farmers eggs life Buford browns and Cotswold legbar. The requirements for free range eggs are not quite limited and in my opinion should be tougher, it ain’t hens foaming around the woods for sure.
What I find slightly interesting is the number of high profile sportspeople becoming vegan and swearing that it improves their longevity of high performance. Williams sisters, Hamilton, Haye all day it aids recovery times, focus etc.
Cows' milk
Humans are the only animal that, once weaned, continue to consume the milk of another, lactating, animal. (An exception: A cat will accept cows' milk. When this occurs, the cat has been given the milk by a person. A cat would normally drink water).
Our 'appetite' for another's breast milk is unnatural. The breast milk of the cow is for the calf. Humans take it (some would say steal it). The cow is separated from her calf and both are distressed. The cow is then inseminated again, forcibly and against her will, with the aim that another pregnancy will occur. The calf is separated from mother and her milk is taken. Repeat, until the poor cow is worn out.
Honey
Bees make this from collected pollen and it is produced and stored within the hive to feed the colony.
Humans take (some would say steal) some of the honey. They do this by distracting the bees with smoke.
Bees are frightened of fire and when they sense smoke, they prepare to flee the nest / hive. They put their heads into the honey stores and commence a feeding frenzy, swiftly taking on board energy in readiness for the impending flight away from the 'fire'. Thus distracted, the beekeeper takes (steals?) the bees' honey.
In the belief that the honey is for the bees' young, and the colony, and given that the bees are distressed when they sense smoke (fearing that fire is near), vegans choose to leave the bees to their task of pollen collection, storage and production of honey. We consider it theirs, not ours.
Eggs
Factory farms might be a living hell for the poor chickens. Little light. A diet that makes you put on weight, unnaturally, and makes your legs hurt. You cannot, or have difficulty in, getting outside for air and light.
All of these creatures are individuals, with their own personalities and idiosyncrasies. They are reduced to a money-making commodity.
I look after chickens. They are well-cared for and I know the provenance of their eggs. There is a persuasive argument in such circumstances for eating their eggs. I choose not to, and give the eggs away to non-vegans.
Animals are not just 'things'. Vegans oppose their commodification and choose alternatives. For example, there are many nutritious and wholesome nut, oat and rice milks available.
Make of this what you will. Animals and insects are distressed by our actions. We have the option and intelligence to avoid doing such things. And a growing number of us choose to do so, finding alternatives that cause no, or little, suffering.
1. Do bees not produce more honey than they need?
2. What milk would you recommend as tasty
Like milk but not the process
Dislike plain soya milk
Don’t want sugared / sugar substitute in the milk
I choose to leave the bees alone.
2. Best, I reckon, to try some different ones and see what suits. (I purchase both unsweetened and sweetened (with apple juice) soya milk from Lidl. 59p per litre. Almond milk is nice on cereal, but I find it gives tea an overly-nutty taste.
Plenty of info in BBC Radio 4's 'Book of the Week'. Buzz, by Dr. Thor Hanson
'Bees are like oxygen - ubiquitous, essential and, for the most part, unseen. While we might overlook them, they lie at the heart of relationships that bind the human and natural worlds. Dr Hanson takes us on a journey that begins 125 million years ago, when a wasp first dared to feed pollen to its young'.
https://bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b86qyz
https://thorhanson.net/buzz.html